Seemingly we'll never know absolutely for sure who played what on "For You", "Prince", "Dirty Mind", and "Controversy", but can we trust the album credits from "1999" onward (I know the info the protege albums is dubious).

Curious to hear from those who have legitimate information...

Much of the correct information can be found via copyright agencies, publishing databases and the numerous interviews with engineers and band members. Historically, Prince is the last guy to believe.

PrinceVault is extremely proactive in making sure their info is vetted before posting. If it's on that site, it's gospel.

alphachannel said:

Seemingly we'll never know absolutely for sure who played what on "For You", "Prince", "Dirty Mind", and "Controversy", but can we trust the album credits from "1999" onward (I know the info the protege albums is dubious).

Curious to hear from those who have legitimate information...

No you can't trust the credits at all. Period.

^ If only there were an updated book or something with this kind of in-depth information.

squirrelgrease said:

^ If only there were an updated book or something with this kind of in-depth information.

HAHAHA. Yes. I agree. If only...

I wish...

Jill Jones vocals are on most protege albums

and throught Prince albums but she really only got credit on

1999 the album, some ATWIAD song Prince-B sides

Prince is very sloppy when it comes to offering correct album credits i think, intentionally or not.

Maybe it's partially the result of him and his bandmembers jamming together often in studio, and 'forgetting' who actually did attribute certain elements to a song.

When it comes to the Parade album (and the unreleased Dream factory also) Wendy and Lisa have stated that Prince did offer them dozens of basic-tracks to work on, and they fleshed out the melodies and worked out the arrangements, so that makes them at least co-writers.

For example, Leeds (or was it Fink?) described Mountains as 'Wendy and Lisa's song', but did they ever get the official credits for it?

[Edited 12/2/11 10:19am]

Husky said:

Prince is very sloppy when it comes to offering correct album credits i think, intentionally or not.

Maybe it's partially the result of him and his bandmembers jamming together often in studio, and 'forgetting' who actually did attribute certain elements to a song.

When it comes to the Parade album (and the unreleased Dream factory also) Wendy and Lisa have stated that Prince did offer them dozens of basic-tracks to work on, and they fleshed out the melodies and worked out the arrangements, so that makes them at least co-writers.

For example, Leeds (or was it Fink?) described Mountains as 'Wendy and Lisa's song', but did they ever get the official credits for it?

[Edited 12/2/11 10:19am]

Mountains was Wendy & Lisa's song with Prince coming in and changing some parts of it. Here is a little background on it's origin.

The track “Mountains” was originally an untitled song recorded by Wendy and Lisa at Advision studios in London while Prince was in France filming UTCM. “Prince wanted to keep Wendy and Lisa busy so he booked three weeks at Advision studio in London and he sent us there,’ recalls engineer Susan Rogers. “He also had some other tasks… they had to pick out clothes for a video they had to go shopping. He got us a flat, and a car and a driver and got us the studio time and we brought some instruments and he said ‘do something and bring it back.’ And they wrote and recorded a few pieces of music and one of the stand out tracks from that was Mountains. When we came back to France, Wendy played Prince the cassette and Prince was very, very excited about it. He changed the lyrics and added a horn arrangement and when we got back to the United States and we recorded it at the warehouse (this was before Paisley Park Studios).”

“For the most part, on Mountains when it goes ‘de dee dee dee dee dee dee… baaaaamm’… that was Prince’s addition to Mountains because Lisa and I didn’t write that chord progression at all,” Wendy discussed on a 2009 Prince.org interview.

The lyrics that Prince wrote were based on Matthew 21:21 which reads: “Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.”

(This information is from an early draft of "PRINCE: The Studio Sessions")

Sometimes it snows in april and Power Fantastic sound to me like songs that were co-written and co-composed by Wendy and Lisa too.

When i listen to an album like 20ten, it reminds me of the demo's Prince made for For You and Prince.

More simplistic, less sophisticated, more one-dimensional.

I am NOT saying here that Prince is nothing without Wendy and Lisa or something, I aint no Wendy and Lisa fanatic, their own albums lack urgency and character IMO, but I can surely tell there has been a period inside Princes career that he felt 'confident' enough to co-compose and co-write his own music with his bandmembers (wether it was Wendy and Lisa, or Eric Leeds).

Just listen to the demo's that have surfaced: Untill Purple Rain, its Prince with a drummachine and some rudimentary instrumentation, in between 1985 - 1987 these demo's get more rich and sophisticated with a more organic quality, more layered and nuanced sounding, but look at the demo's since 1989: again the simple drummachine, the predictable synthesized riffs and hooks.

What I am trying to say here is that for a short period in time Prince was brave enough to let his songwriting and sonical palette, being taken care off by other musicians (wether it were his bandmembers, or Clare Fischer) and the quality of his music did benefit from that IMO. The moment he did take it back, it became more predictable, formulaic soul / R and B, like the period 1981 - 1987 never did happpened...

Husky said:

Sometimes it snows in april and Power Fantastic sound to me like songs that were co-written and co-composed by Wendy and Lisa too.

When i listen to an album like 20ten, it reminds me of the demo's Prince made for For You and Prince.

More simplistic, less sophisticated, more one-dimensional.

I am NOT saying here that Prince is nothing without Wendy and Lisa or something, I aint no Wendy and Lisa fanatic, their own albums lack urgency and character IMO, but I can surely tell there has been a period inside Princes career that he felt 'confident' enough to co-compose and co-write his own music with his bandmembers (wether it was Wendy and Lisa, or Eric Leeds).

Just listen to the demo's that have surfaced: Untill Purple Rain, its Prince with a drummachine and some rudimentary instrumentation, in between 1985 - 1987 these demo's get more rich and sophisticated with a more organic quality, more layered and nuanced sounding, but look at the demo's since 1989: again the simple drummachine, the predictable synthesized riffs and hooks.

What I am trying to say here is that for a short period in time Prince was brave enough to let his songwriting and sonical palette, being taken care off by other musicians (wether it were his bandmembers, or Clare Fischer) and the quality of his music did benefit from that IMO. The moment he did take it back, it became more predictable, formulaic soul / R and B, like the period 1981 - 1987 never did happpened...

Well articulated! You are a purple jedi master for sure.

About credits generally, it seems Prince has often given credit when it's not due as well as maybe not given due credit too. As I understand it, giving credit has to do with money ultimately. That's why Lennon & McCartney agreed to credit every song to Lennon-McCartney (unless it's Harrison's or Ringo's) so the financial aspect would be easier and cause less friction. Other bands agree to other arrangements, but management does not prefer giving credit according to who actually wrote what because this can cause bands to break up b/c of money.

So what I mean is, maybe part of the reasoning behind song credits is payment arrangements.

madhouseman said:

Mountains was Wendy & Lisa's song with Prince coming in and changing some parts of it. Here is a little background on it's origin.

The track “Mountains” was originally an untitled song recorded by Wendy and Lisa at Advision studios in London while Prince was in France filming UTCM. “Prince wanted to keep Wendy and Lisa busy so he booked three weeks at Advision studio in London and he sent us there,’ recalls engineer Susan Rogers. “He also had some other tasks… they had to pick out clothes for a video they had to go shopping. He got us a flat, and a car and a driver and got us the studio time and we brought some instruments and he said ‘do something and bring it back.’ And they wrote and recorded a few pieces of music and one of the stand out tracks from that was Mountains. When we came back to France, Wendy played Prince the cassette and Prince was very, very excited about it. He changed the lyrics and added a horn arrangement and when we got back to the United States and we recorded it at the warehouse (this was before Paisley Park Studios).”

“For the most part, on Mountains when it goes ‘de dee dee dee dee dee dee… baaaaamm’… that was Prince’s addition to Mountains because Lisa and I didn’t write that chord progression at all,” Wendy discussed on a 2009 Prince.org interview.

The lyrics that Prince wrote were based on Matthew 21:21 which reads: “Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.”

(This information is from an early draft of "PRINCE: The Studio Sessions")

Thanks for the invaluable info.

squirrelgrease said:

madhouseman said:

Mountains was Wendy & Lisa's song with Prince coming in and changing some parts of it. Here is a little background on it's origin.

The track “Mountains” was originally an untitled song recorded by Wendy and Lisa at Advision studios in London while Prince was in France filming UTCM. “Prince wanted to keep Wendy and Lisa busy so he booked three weeks at Advision studio in London and he sent us there,’ recalls engineer Susan Rogers. “He also had some other tasks… they had to pick out clothes for a video they had to go shopping. He got us a flat, and a car and a driver and got us the studio time and we brought some instruments and he said ‘do something and bring it back.’ And they wrote and recorded a few pieces of music and one of the stand out tracks from that was Mountains. When we came back to France, Wendy played Prince the cassette and Prince was very, very excited about it. He changed the lyrics and added a horn arrangement and when we got back to the United States and we recorded it at the warehouse (this was before Paisley Park Studios).”

“For the most part, on Mountains when it goes ‘de dee dee dee dee dee dee… baaaaamm’… that was Prince’s addition to Mountains because Lisa and I didn’t write that chord progression at all,” Wendy discussed on a 2009 Prince.org interview.

The lyrics that Prince wrote were based on Matthew 21:21 which reads: “Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.”

(This information is from an early draft of "PRINCE: The Studio Sessions")

Thanks for the invaluable info.

just a taste! lol

madhouseman said:

squirrelgrease said:

Thanks for the invaluable info.

just a taste! lol

Thanks dude. please don't CUT anything from early (or later) drafts the day u finish that book (I've read once that Nielsen apparently cut more than half of his original draft for DMSR and I'm just so mad about all the crazy stuff we probably missed).

Can't wait for ur book anyway, from the pieces u give us here and there it's definitely gonna be the next important Prince book, and I'm just grateful 4 that.

Peace.

madhouseman said:

“For the most part, on Mountains when it goes ‘de dee dee dee dee dee dee… baaaaamm’… that was Prince’s addition to Mountains because Lisa and I didn’t write that chord progression at all,” Wendy discussed on a 2009 Prince.org interview.

I might be being kinds slow today, but what bit of the song is this referring to?

Interesting account, btw. Good luck with the book.

deebee said:

madhouseman said:

“For the most part, on Mountains when it goes ‘de dee dee dee dee dee dee… baaaaamm’… that was Prince’s addition to Mountains because Lisa and I didn’t write that chord progression at all,” Wendy discussed on a 2009 Prince.org interview.

I might be being kinds slow today, but what bit of the song is this referring to?

Interesting account, btw. Good luck with the book.

The ending I guess

Husky said:

Sometimes it snows in april and Power Fantastic sound to me like songs that were co-written and co-composed by Wendy and Lisa too.

When i listen to an album like 20ten, it reminds me of the demo's Prince made for For You and Prince.

More simplistic, less sophisticated, more one-dimensional.

I am NOT saying here that Prince is nothing without Wendy and Lisa or something, I aint no Wendy and Lisa fanatic, their own albums lack urgency and character IMO, but I can surely tell there has been a period inside Princes career that he felt 'confident' enough to co-compose and co-write his own music with his bandmembers (wether it was Wendy and Lisa, or Eric Leeds).

Just listen to the demo's that have surfaced: Untill Purple Rain, its Prince with a drummachine and some rudimentary instrumentation, in between 1985 - 1987 these demo's get more rich and sophisticated with a more organic quality, more layered and nuanced sounding, but look at the demo's since 1989: again the simple drummachine, the predictable synthesized riffs and hooks.

What I am trying to say here is that for a short period in time Prince was brave enough to let his songwriting and sonical palette, being taken care off by other musicians (wether it were his bandmembers, or Clare Fischer) and the quality of his music did benefit from that IMO. The moment he did take it back, it became more predictable, formulaic soul / R and B, like the period 1981 - 1987 never did happpened...

Ehhh.. no it didn't. Formulaic soul and R&B? Now that would be giving him too much credit. I doubt Prince understands any genre well enough to write a formulaic song. If it were formulaic R&B I would be MORE impressed with it. I agree with everything else you said, though. Wendy and Lisa, Morris Day, Andre Cymone, Fink, Prince sidechicks, and others I'm sure are not properly credited.