For all the people who long for the Prince's days of gritty funk, rock and dance. Pinpoint the moment in time where it went wrong. I believe it was the The Black Album.

Sure its original intentions were just party music for Sheila E. but it became something else when he was criticised of not being funky enough. From a collector's point of view, The Black Album was great. But, in retrospect, there was nothing really worthy of the legend of the LP except Superfunkycalifragasexy, Rock Hard In A Funky Place, and 2 Nigs United 4 West Compton...just my opinion. Other than those, it was throw-away funk and jabs at the rap industry.


This was the first point in his career when he started giving a damn about what others thought about him musically and the experimentation stopped. Now he did follow up the withdrawal of the Black Album with the classic Lovesexy (the last classic for a while) Everything post-Lovesexy has a dated sound (except TGE and portions of Exodus) which to the non-die hard can't be traced to a particular year.

Fast forward through Batman and we have Prince incorporating rap into his music and the club scene...T.C. Ellis & the Game Boyz, Glam Slams here, there and beyond. Which just... doesn't fit well in his niche. Meanwhile, he's still kicking ass live.

Fast forward to 1994. We receive the Most Beautiful Girl in the World. A great song that sounds great remixed during his performance on Soul Train. However, with the release of The Beautiful Experience, this begins Prince's lame attempts at remixes and keeping his name in the clubs.

Despite stellar tracks on albums in between 1994-1998. Prince sounds like he's competing with the likes of R.Kelly, Babyface and Dr. Dre and has lost his sound.

This tradition is continued until 1999 and the releases of Rave Un2, Rave In2. Thank God there weren't any remixes for the Rainbow Children, the one entire album that sounds like he believes in himself again.


DISCLAIMER

Now before you "fams" start clowning and throwing Watchtowers at me, please note that this thread is for those who are willing to discuss Prince's music from an unbiased perspective.

June 25th 1984...April 22, 1985.

rdhull said:

I don't have my official Paisley calendars in front of me. What happened then?

chickengrease said:

Purple Rrain and ATWIAD were released.

rdhull said:

geezus. where's Handclapsfingasnapz when you need her?

I see your point, Chickengrease, and I kinda agree with your view on Prince's career. But at the same time I'm aware there are OTHER, different views as valid as this one. I think you are being hard on the "post-Lovesexy" era 'till present, and you forgot some great moments and music like "The Undertaker", for instance. Or most of "The Vault". And his concerts have been being great after all. ...I think you pointed out a line in Prince's career very cleverly, but none side is better or worst. Simply evolution!.

lickerdipper said:

I guess I'm trying to view this from a non-diehard's point of view. I know many fans who loved the music at one point and stopped loving the music (commercial releases) shortly after Sign of the Times. I agree wholeheartedly with the Undertaker...I'd pick and choose from The Vault. It just seems that post-Lovesexy he sounds like he tried. The studio releases at one point sounded so effortless.

See, I don't think The Black Album was the beginning of the end. If anything it made him more interesting (at the time). I remember non-fans liking my taped bootleg as much as anything he had done. All my skateborder friends at the time LOVED Bob George. He hit the skids more (in the U S)with Lovesexy than anything...mainly because of the cover. But he came back strong with Batman and Diamonds & Pearls.

I'd say his "commercial" career really started going downhill when was released. Then everything went to hell after the name change.

A lot of SOTT was with the Revolution and were the same versions as on The Dream Factory, and the Black Album was almost a full Prince album (sans RockHard), making Lovesexy his first full non-Revolution (inc. Susannah) album.

I think it's interesting to listen to Prince's music in the concept of the people he is working with at a particaular time.

There are distinct eras of music where he had especially one or two main collaborators within the whole band.

Andre Cymone - Prince - Dirty Mind
Dr Fink, Dez & Lisa - Controversy - 1999
Wendy & Lisa - Purple Rain - SOTT
Sheila E, Eric Leeds - SOTT - Lovesexy (especially. Madhouse)
Levi Seacer Jr. & Tony M. - Batman -
Michael Bland & Sonny T - Come - Chaos & Disorder
Kirk Johnson - Emanctipation - Rave

As for this band, I dunno - I can't really choose - I think it's John Blackwell because I think he made Prince want to record with live drumming, the total opposite of Kirk Johnson with his R&B-lite drum patterns.

So as for the "Day where it all went wrong?" I kinda agree, but there have been other era changes too.
[This message was edited Wed Feb 19 17:04:59 PST 2003 by MiaBocca]

chickengrease said:

With a title like "The Black Album" I would expect something as significant as the Beatles' "White Album". He should have left it titled "Funk Bible" or something like that. I think the hype over it being pulled, not to mention the pretentious title and album cover caused people to expect more of it than what it really was.

Still, I get the impression that the black album is some very raw and honest Prince. He just lets loose and looses his mind on those tracks and spews out the insanity and frustrations and kink.

when grafitti bridge came out I knew it was all over

I agree in principal with a lot of what you've stated. But I just don't see Prince's career that way in general.

I see Prince's career as a series of ups and downs, and right now he’s very much in an upswing, while a few years ago he was at his lowest downswing.

If you are merely asking when did his commercial success die, I’ll leave that for someone else to address. It's many different complex reasons, and the quality of music, or lack thereof, has almost nothing to do with it.

To me the problem with some of his 90s material in general is just that he appeared less focused from an album perspective. What I mean is that he didn't quite have enough to say or a unique enough take on life to fill an entire album that was thematically and/or musically cohesive from start to finish. He’s a great and prolific songwriter, so he’ll always churn out great songs, but it requires a whole other level of deep focus and inspiration to churn out an entire album that has purpose and meaning throughout. I think what he’s been doing since “TRC” is cohesive and has that focus.

I guess it all depends on what you mean by dated. I personally think that it’s one of the most misused terms in all of art criticism. Listening to the Beatles music I can instantly date it to the mid- to late-60s sound and scene. Does that mean that there music is dated? Of course not. People will be listening to much of the Beatles’ music 50 years from now, 100 years from now, and probably until we blow the planet up. In fact, the more knowledge one has of music, the more easily the music they hear can be dated. Some are so good they can hear a classical piece and instantly tell you it’s from the 1680s.

The higher the quality and the more universal the themes, the more timeless the art. It has nothing to do with a piece of art looking or sounding like a certain period or with someone's ability to immediately identify said art as coming from a particular time period.

What makes something “dated” to me is something that is of poor quality that has some or nearly all of the stereotypical characteristics of a given era. Some of the music Prince created during this period certainly would fall under this definition (see “Jughead” for the ultimate example), but a lot of it wouldn’t.

Brendan

Brendan said:

I see what you mean, but there is some music that is timeless. Music that can be dusted off, performed today and sound just as fresh as it did then. "Jughead" was a perfect example. And there were so many tunes on albums (post-Lovesexy) that just couldn't be given new life as he did on previous tours. Can you imagine Prince pulling Jughead out for the ONA tour? A live performer like Prince usually has the talent to give a tune a kick or two and give it new life. I don't know if that makes sense, but when I say dated that's what I mean. If it was good then, but it's not now (even by way of remix) then, to me, it sounds "dated"

Brendan said:

:NOD: I listen to most of Prince's albums with 'themes' and they more often that not, lose the plot. The theme is not necessarily what makes an album great but the artist's ability to understand how much a listener can absorb of that theme. There's a lot to be said for an album that has been whittled down to it's essential spirit. Emancipation saw Prince lose that focus. People may disagree but The Rainbow Children saw him regain it. Like you said, it's peaks and troughs with Prince.

Everything changed for me with Emancipation. I was so happy before it came out, I just knew Prince was gonna be his old funky self again, now that he was free. I was so disappointed in this album. I only dug about three songs on the whole album, but the knife in the heart was the cover songs. All I could think was "Prince is way better than this" and "Why didn't he just use some other songs out of the vault". It ain't been the same for me since.

stymie said:

I agree, after Lovesexy he was never as progressive, but after TGE he was just something else - then with TRC that's gotta be him saying, fuck this I'm better than this, I've gotta move on otherwise I'm gonna shrivel up.

I realize that as Prince had to grow up and was not out to make a pt. 2 of any of his classic albums 1999. But it baffles me how someone who pioneered funk, organic and electronic, wound up attempting to follow those who probably at one time looked up to him. As great as the Rainbow Children is, I'm still driven to believe that albums by the likes of D'Angelo, Erykah Badu, etc were the direct inspiration of the LP. I guess the real question I'm asking is when and why did he stop pioneering the music.

Rumpofsteelskin said:

When started following instead of leading, that was after The Black Album.

Rumpofsteelskin said:

Exactly! What happened to the guy who pioneered it.

Rumpofsteelskin said:

It just means to me that Prince has been around long enough to be inspired at least in part by those he's inspired. If he keeps turning out work of the quality he has the last year and half, he'll in turn inspire those who inspired him who were of course originally inspired by him, not to mention inspiring new artists that haven’t previously listened to Prince.

D'Angelo, as good as he is, has not shown the capability of making something nearly as great as "TRC" or "1999" or "SOTT". Are we to believe he is pioneering and on the cutting edge just because he's young and hasn't created enough to repeat himself yet?

Bob Dylan's last two studio albums are among his greatest works. Are these albums anywhere near as pioneering and cutting edge as Dylan’s early work when he was laying down the rules for himself. No, but they are as great as any album put out by any artist.

I just think these things are way overrated. When some young genius picks up "TRC" or "One Nite Alone...Live" in a used CD bin 30 years from now, they are either going to be inspired by the music or not. So what will ultimately matter is the quality of the music, not whether it was considered sufficiently cutting edge or pioneering at the time of its release.

Not that pushing boundaries and experimentation aren’t very important to the evolution of music, because they are VERY important. I’m just saying that I don’t let the music I listen to or define as being great get limited to only that which is obviously pioneering and cutting edge.

I’ll be listening to “Avalanche” until the day I die, even if I make it to 110. Is it cutting edge? Is it pioneering? No, just among the greatest works written in its time.

chickengrease said:

Yes, there are tons of timeless songs and albums. That's a great way to define it, too, as sounding as fresh today as it did when it was first created/played.

I was just saying that timeless music has nothing to do with whether it possessed characteristics that made it sound like it came from a particular era. I was saying pretty much everything does if you obtain enough knowledge about every musical period, style, production techniques and even recording technology.

And I would say a song was never really good in the first place if it doesn't sound good now. It was just our failings that heard it that way in the first place. We’ve all done this, overrated a song that is, and later realized it wasn't anything special. Hopefully we learn from it and we are a truer judge of real greatness the next time out.

--
[This message was edited Wed Feb 19 21:42:45 PST 2003 by Brendan]

Anji said:

Very well said. And what more difficult job does an artist have than trying to decipher the essential spirit when you have grown so close to the work?

Sometimes it's just a matter of blind luck. Take "Parade" for instance. Prince was somewhat unsatisfied with it at the time of its release, but I think this is a case where there's almost no way he could have improved on the quirky and magical cohesiveness that is that record.

With so many years removed maybe he can hear the brilliance now that he couldn't hear at the time. At the time apparently all he could hear was unfinished stuff that frustrated him. He wanted to get his paintbrush out and finish the painting. But it turns out that it was finished.

Perhaps if he would have been this quick with "The Gold Experience" he would have had a grand masterpiece rather than a painting that's very good but that comes across as having been too touched up. But then there are other times when spending months or years on a project pays off and it doesn't sound overworked in the least.

The day it all went wrong really has nothing to do with his released music, it was what ever time he started to take advise from that dumbass Larry.

For *me* the day it all went wrong was when Prince started managing himself (ie sacked Fargnoli, recruited then parted ways with Magnoli)

As soon as Prince started concerning himself withthe business aspect of his career and therefore focusing less on the music (his art) things dropped off.

IMHO there are still flashes of brilliance:

Diamonds & Pearls (without the rap tracks) is excellent
Come turned out to be a complete grower for me
The Gold Experience is excellent
Emancipation is overlong and patchy but there's an amazing double CD in there
The Vault is vintage
The Rainbow Children would be a classic if you lost the voice over

Remember this is MY OPINION. The albums I have not mentioned always contained a handful of trax I love but are surrounded by trax a love less (I hate few Prince trax other than Graffiti Bridge and Arms of Orion)

chickengrease said:

This makes sense to me, I hear you this shift in his focus is totally plausible IMO - not claiming it's the truth but I understand it

Tom said:

As far as Prince giving a dang about what others thought of him, his point there was that how he put the "Black Album" together (Ecstacy) and the lyrics; he didn't want to that to be the last thoughts from fans and others that he his life was dark. On the Defense of Prince (JW) and no I not JW, his foremost thoughts of who cared about his was GOD. Which is where Lovesexy came out. Yeah I have a copy of the Black Album - some songs I listen to and some I don't (maybe due to the intro of the song) but to end my babbling you can hear his thoughts thru the song Anna Stesia. I too had a bad trip (weed) and that woke me up too. So to those who dis Prince for finding GOD thru JW, hey everyone has a choice and he choose GOD.

chickengrease said:

over here, chicken-dahling.

i knew about june 25th (that's easy, cuz that wuz my mom's 42nd birfday), but april threw me off...

jaypotton said:

I agree - which is what just after Lovesexy?

MiaBocca said:

chickengrease said:

definitely...lovesexy is my cut-off album: anything released after that i listen 2 with extreme caution...