bboy87 said:

I said popper because that's the style I've done mostly

The problem is you're speaking in a corrective manner.

Anyway, it sounds as if your screen name is a misnomer, you're not a bboy, but that you dabble in the "Funk Styles", which is a term someone in the the Electric Boogaloos came up with, not an official term. "Street Dance" is a perfectly fine umbrella term used by those same Electric Boogaloos.

Your bigger point, that many of the moves MJ and at times, Prince, do, are tied to a lineage of individual dances that have names. It's neither here nor there for this discussion, which is why you're just showing off.

treehouse said:

bboy87 said:

I said popper because that's the style I've done mostly

The problem is you're speaking in a corrective manner.

Anyway, it sounds as if your screen name is a misnomer, you're not a bboy, but that you dabble in the "Funk Styles", which is a term someone in the the Electric Boogaloos came up with, not an official term. "Street Dance" is a perfectly fine umbrella term used by those same Electric Boogaloos.

Your bigger point, that many of the moves MJ and at times, Prince, do, are tied to a lineage of individual dances that have names. It's neither here nor there for this discussion, which is why you're just showing off.

I don' think I showing off or speaking like I was trying to correct someone, I was just giving my opinion

You're right about my username. When I first joined the org, I was learning about bboying and the roots and thought breakers, poppers, lockers were all considered bboys or bgirls because they're somewhat connected. I've just never changed it

treehouse said:

Swa said:

A&M did distribute through CBS in some overseas regions

[Edited 1/3/12 17:51pm]

CBS handled ALL worldwide distribution for BOTH companies. End of story.

It was a shared financial interest.

Speaking of which, the inflated sales numbers tossed around are international sales figures.

It's laughable that MJ fans are so insecure that they have to invent a folklore around his already impressive achievements. He didn't invent, or save the record industry, or the music video industry, or music films. Sorry. He didn't resurect Prince's career. He doesn't deserve credit for Purple Rain in any way. Period.

You're incorrect, but alas you don't weant to see that. A&M had individual distributions deals in key markets, for example in Australia it was distributed through Festival records (another independent record label) and was later bought and distributed by Polygram (a competitor to CBS & BMG).

And again, I don't think you'll find anywhere in any of my posts that I claim Michael resurrected Prince's career - or should get credit for Purple Rain. So you seem to be fighting arguments with yourself.

What is laughable is how when presented with the facts you either ignore, twist or distort them, and your reluctance to give credit to an artist that Prince himself admires and counts as an influence.

So if you don't choose or want to see the facts as they are laid out before you, that's cool. Believe what you want. You do afterall have a right to be wrong.

[Edited 1/3/12 18:25pm]

Swa said:

And again, I don't think you'll find anywhere in any of my posts that I claim Michael resurrected Prince's career - or should get credit for Purple Rain.

[Edited 1/3/12 18:25pm]

Then what's the point of your posts? There are people in this thread who claimed such nonsense, but you're not arguing with them for some reason.

You're wrong, CBS was still the umbrella during that period, and either way, there's no validity to the entire premise that Michael Jackson really saved the recording industry during a period when record sales were already booming. The industry was in transition, introducing singles cassettes, and the Compact Disc.... but Michael didn't invent that either. Sorrrrrrrry.

So yeah, stop insulting people to protect some fantasy image (not facts) you have of Michael Jackson of all people. It's ludicrous.

[Edited 1/3/12 19:56pm]

This thread has been informative and hilarious. Knowledge can be fun! Anyways..Steven Spielberg , while leaving the "Purple Rain" Premiere, said it best when asked "How is Prince different than Mj?"..to which he replied "Michael represents the dreams in all of us, Prince represents the streets we live on." Either way, BOTH were/are AMAZING ARTIST, and I feel really Blessed to be old enough to have enjoyed their maturation an eventual success. Nowadays... music is so dead ? My radio stays on NPR..now how sad is that?

Jackal Mikeson was like Coca-Cola (sorry, I don't do Pepsi, U saw what it did to him right?) and Prince was like Wild Turkey 101. Thriller was HOT, until ur 7yr old little sister jams to it too y'know? "Purple Rain" was like soft-porn and no way in hell was she gonna be parroting "Darling Nikki" on the way to Chuckie Cheese. And a couple of U are right...the success of "Thriller" eventually killed Jackal, whereas P had the foresight to see what MASS APPEAL could do to a brother. P has always been edgy...I hope that side of him returns one day.

treehouse said:

Swa said:

And again, I don't think you'll find anywhere in any of my posts that I claim Michael resurrected Prince's career - or should get credit for Purple Rain.

[Edited 1/3/12 18:25pm]

Then what's the point of your posts? There are people in this thread who claimed such nonsense, but you're not arguing with them for some reason.

You're wrong, CBS was still the umbrella during that period, and either way, there's no validity to the entire premise that Michael Jackson really saved the recording industry during a period when record sales were already booming. The industry was in transition, introducing singles cassettes, and the Compact Disc.... but Michael didn't invent that either. Sorrrrrrrry.

So yeah, stop insulting people to protect some fantasy image (not facts) you have of Michael Jackson of all people. It's ludicrous.

[Edited 1/3/12 19:56pm]

First off - if you bothered to read my posts objectively - they were clarifying facts around the Thriller era that were either being disputed or misrepresented or in fact being twisted. This wasn't an attack on you or any one else - it was just a statement of fact to give some perspective to both sides of the argument (as both had been coloured by bias).

Then you stepped in and claimed I was misinforming or building myth - so I clarified my point of view again with facts.

Nothing I have said has been incorrect. In your own arguments you contradict yourself. You say that Thriller was selling wildly but then you challenge the fact it outsold other key albums in that time combined - this isn't some myth - do the math.

Then despite multiple sources pointing to Thriller as being a reviving force for the record industry, you still want to claim it as booming at the time. Again incorrect.

If it was a booming time for record sales then surely everyone would have have massive smashes in the league of Thriller - but it wasn't the case. That fact alone points to the artistry and music on the album. Some people just don't want to give credit where credit is due.

It is a shame that extreme fans on both sides of the MJ and Prince camp can't graciously accept the achievements and influence the other has had.

As a lifelong fan of both, and one lucky enough to have been buying music during both their heydays, I feel fortunate to have been exposed to two great artists. Being one or the other in my book always left you missing out on some great music.

Well, I always compare Michael to Elvis in terms of certain people not wanting to give him one iota of credit. I have a problem with that, I guess I'll let it go, because, well, I'm not going to be able to argue much because my laptop is toast. I don't get you guys and don't believe I'm not a huge Prince fan, for many years, a bigger one than an MJ fan and when I cover songs, I do lots of great Prince songs but no MJ songs (which if I'd had time I'd Learn) Prince is great Michael is great, I have no qualms with anyone saying either one is great but I do have a problem with people just repeating and parroting things about Michael many of which are patently untrue and not giving him his due. He was a significant american artist, any other take is just sour grapes whether it's coming from you, the press, quincy jones or whoever. Now that he's gone I feel more protective than ever of him.

bboy87 said:

treehouse said:

The problem is you're speaking in a corrective manner.

Anyway, it sounds as if your screen name is a misnomer, you're not a bboy, but that you dabble in the "Funk Styles", which is a term someone in the the Electric Boogaloos came up with, not an official term. "Street Dance" is a perfectly fine umbrella term used by those same Electric Boogaloos.

Your bigger point, that many of the moves MJ and at times, Prince, do, are tied to a lineage of individual dances that have names. It's neither here nor there for this discussion, which is why you're just showing off.

I don' think I showing off or speaking like I was trying to correct someone, I was just giving my opinion

You're right about my username. When I first joined the org, I was learning about bboying and the roots and thought breakers, poppers, lockers were all considered bboys or bgirls because they're somewhat connected. I've just never changed it

You weren't.

But you knew better than to expect some dialogue, when some of these know-it-all nutsacks were ONLY looking for your co-signs.

I say just laugh it off and keep it moving, Jay

Swa said:

You say that Thriller was selling wildly but then you challenge the fact it outsold other key albums in that time combined - this isn't some myth - do the math.

[...}

If it was a booming time for record sales then surely everyone would have have massive smashes in the league of Thriller - but it wasn't the case.

No, YOU do the math.

You're the one bragging about facts and how objectionable you are while making false claims. Prove it. Come back with your fake numbers and break it down for us. The period between 1980-1983 was full of hit records that have sold 20 million+ copies.

I know you think you're being rational, but you're not sounding it.

petes2 said:

He was a significant american artist

Nobody said otherwise.

Had you left it at that, nobody would have challenged your outrageous claims.

Did you go watch those old clips of Prince yet?

Harlepolis said:

But you knew better than to expect some dialogue, when some of these know-it-all nutsacks were ONLY looking for your co-signs.

So he didn't take issue with the phrase "street dance" and try to correct it?

You're the one jumping into the thread, off topic, to co-sign your internet buddy.

treehouse said:

Harlepolis said:

But you knew better than to expect some dialogue, when some of these know-it-all nutsacks were ONLY looking for your co-signs.

So he didn't take issue with the phrase "street dance" and try to correct it?

You're the one jumping into the thread, off topic, to co-sign your internet buddy.

All I did was nudge him to take the high road, because its pointless to have a conversation with some of you purple kool aid drinking morons

Call it co-signing, or don't, its up to you And on that note, I'm done off-topicing. Bye kids.

[Edited 1/4/12 1:12am]

maybe i missed it(and im sure as hell not going to go wade through the bullshit in this thread to find it), but there were actual citations to MJ saving the record industry? or is it just "steve down the block told me so..."?

Well someone did link to a fan blog dedicated to rehashing tired old Michael stories, and it had an uncredited wiki cut and paste...so it must be true.

What is the problem citizens ? How come so many have such a hard time saying that "Jackal Mikeson kicked-ass, Prince kicked-ass !!" This is becoming a fanboy flame-out comparable to XBOX vs. PS3. Do Ur ears not appreciate the bass-lines or the danceable ? Some like Missionary...some prefer Doggy...but U both still LOVE sex right ? Get a grip and cue up the ballistics...the BEST judge of a Good Tune ? Ur FEET. If Ur ears hear it ? And either one of Ur feet starts "tapping the beat ?" Ur Hooked...let it go...

Heal The World ? Blew Ass.

Dolphins ? Blew Ass.

SuperFly Sister ? Kicked Ass.

Black Sweat ? Kicked Ass.

See? They BOTH have done CRAP...they BOTH have done AMAZING...what's the problem ? Hershey against Butterscotch ? Come on now...how beat is that song?

Amazing that this Thread is still going.

HEAL THE WORLD HEALED THE ACTUAL WORLD AND SAVED THE HEALERS INDUSTRY! Don't hate.

TurnItUp said:

Free2BMe said:

Sorry, Boo; BUT, the record DID happen. The sad thing is that Michael didn't live to do those shows. That doesn't change the FACT that he SOLD-OUT 50 shows at the 02 arena. Let's be fair and not change the rules to fit YOUR theory. Hater or not.

[Edited 12/24/11 2:45am]

Hater or not, Prince lived to past 50 years old, lived through 2011 to do his shows and has lived to see 2012. Too bad I can't say the same about your idol. Now thats a PROVEN FACT and let's not change the rules, oh that's right you can't because the Lord had the final word. Boo!

[Edited 1/1/12 17:39pm]

Your response is immature. The fact that Prince has lived past 50 means shit concerning THIS discussion that Michael sold out FIFTY SHOWS at the 02 arena without a new album, no promotion, not being on stage in over 10+ years, etc. Again, that's a PROVEN fact. Let's not change the rules to fit YOUR, and others like you, agenda. Nothing you say will ever change that FACT. Get over it and move on.

uuhson said:

treehouse said:

Yeah, because The Police and Lionel Richie didn't sell a single album the year Thriller came out, right?

AC/DC couldn't sell a record, and the 80's were full of doldrums.... until Michael Saved the Planet...and inspired Purple Rain.

C'mon son.

i notice the type of fanatic that comes to a prince forum just to preach the word of MJ, has an extremely warped view of reality

at a Prince fanatic calling anyone else a "fanatic".

treehouse said:

Swa said:

A&M did distribute through CBS in some overseas regions

[Edited 1/3/12 17:51pm]

CBS handled ALL worldwide distribution for BOTH companies. End of story.

It was a shared financial interest.

Speaking of which, the inflated sales numbers tossed around are international sales figures.

It's laughable that MJ fans are so insecure that they have to invent a folklore around his already impressive achievements. He didn't invent, or save the record industry, or the music video industry, or music films. Sorry. He didn't resurect Prince's career. He doesn't deserve credit for Purple Rain in any way. Period.

Seriously, you have got to be kidding. Michael Jackson fans did NOT invent the story about Michael "saving" the music industry. That has been said MANY,MANY years by the media, music industry types, etc. Why the manipulation to say that fans made up this story when it has been said in basically every media outlet-books, TV, etc.? See this is the kind of bullshit that MJ fans have to defend and then some people want to call those fans "fanatics". SMH at the hypocrisy.

hey but i love dolphin! if you forget how silly the lyrics are its a pretty great song



find me some credible sources for this and then we can talk

[Edited 1/4/12 21:46pm]

treehouse said:

petes2 said:

He was a significant american artist

Nobody said otherwise.

Had you left it at that, nobody would have challenged your outrageous claims.

Did you go watch those old clips of Prince yet?

there are people here claiming otherwise, they are not my claims, those are things said as often as when they used to say "Elvis saved Rock and Roll" I guess both would be subjective to whether a person liked Elvis or Michael. But don't let the fact that you cajoled me into responding again or even hedging a bit and saying that I am a Prince nut change my overall point which is Michael was awesome, he was great and he had to die (like Elvis) for people to reflect on how special he was. Incredible artist, incredible personality a big loss. Mike inspired people to love him, Prince gets love but I have a hard time feeling a lot of warmth for a guy who has been such a bastard all his life.

Free2BMe said:

Seriously, you have got to be kidding. Michael Jackson fans did NOT invent the story about Michael "saving" the music industry. That has been said MANY,MANY years by the media, music industry types, etc. Why the manipulation to say that fans made up this story when it has been said in basically every media outlet-books, TV, etc.? See this is the kind of bullshit that MJ fans have to defend and then some people want to call those fans "fanatics". SMH at the hypocrisy.

This post is going to suck for you....it's going to be a lot like learning there's no Easter bunny, but...

1) 99% of what you know about your favorite entertainers is marketing. It's make believe. It's image. It's not the truth.

2) What media outlet, books or TV are you talking about? Citation?

3) Nobody is arguing that Thriller was:

a) a poor selling record.

b) bad for the industry.

4) You don't "have to defend" a pop star from anyone. You chose to. You even chose to make up an argument on a Prince forum with people who aren't terribly interetested in Michael.

5) You're not making a compelling argument on behalf of Michael Jackson....nor are you picking a compelling reason to chose this as your battle in life.

petes2 said:

they used to say "Elvis saved Rock and Roll"

Holy crap...they said it figuritively.

Maybe this is more about trying to tie MJ into the Elvis legacy, I have no idea what you're even talking about at this point.

Say what you want about Prince being a bad person, neither Elvis nor Michael were saints. It' a stupid comparison anyway. You would have to drink your weight in Jesus Juice to think this is important.

treehouse said:

petes2 said:

they used to say "Elvis saved Rock and Roll"

Holy crap...they said it figuritively.

Maybe this is more about trying to tie MJ into the Elvis legacy, I have no idea what you're even talking about at this point.

Say what you want about Prince being a bad person, neither Elvis nor Michael were saints. It' a stupid comparison anyway. You would have to drink your weight in Jesus Juice to think this is important.

ya, dismiss me however you like, the "Elvis saved Rock and Roll" was a serious statement made by many for valid reasons, Rock and Roll had a great beginning with Bill Haley, lots of groups, lots of small time one hit wonders not to mention the great black artists but was really sort of going the way a lot of fads had people wondered if it would be another "craze" that came and went then came Elvis. That's history, you don't like history that's why you defend your ideas the way you do, calling people names etc.., And I don't drink, I guess you like Purple kool aid am I right?

petes2 said:

That's history, you don't like history that's why you defend your ideas the way you do, calling people names etc.., And I don't drink, I guess you like Purple kool aid am I right?

I haven't called you any names by the way....but insulting people with the "purple kool aid" line is not just silly but very off base.

I don't respect anyone who thinks the history of rock n' roll involves a tangibility which required being saved by a popular figurehead.

I don't respect prosthelytizing fan worship of celebrities.

I don't respect revisionist history built around chart success or sales.

I don't respect music history that's written by marketing department press releases, centered around the business side of music.

This thread was an attempt to go beyond the media portrayol of both MJ and Prince and discuss oral history accounts of their relationship....if that was too much for you to handle, and it upsets you to learn there's more to life than money and chart success or that Michael had some demons... tough. Most of the posts about Prince on this forum deal with him in a realistic manner, honest about his shortcomings, and failures, but there's still a sense of appreciation for some aspect of his work that binds most of the posts. Advocating on behalf of Michael Jackson has no context here.

[Edited 1/5/12 0:02am]

treehouse said:

4) You don't "have to defend" a pop star from anyone. You chose to. You even chose to make up an argument on a Prince forum with people who aren't terribly interetested in Michael.

will you marry me?

treehouse said:

Swa said:

You say that Thriller was selling wildly but then you challenge the fact it outsold other key albums in that time combined - this isn't some myth - do the math.

[...}

If it was a booming time for record sales then surely everyone would have have massive smashes in the league of Thriller - but it wasn't the case.

No, YOU do the math.

You're the one bragging about facts and how objectionable you are while making false claims. Prove it. Come back with your fake numbers and break it down for us. The period between 1980-1983 was full of hit records that have sold 20 million+ copies.

I know you think you're being rational, but you're not sounding it.

Ok so let me break it down for you.

My original post talked about "yes, in 1983 / 84 during Thriller's peak sales period there were also great albums by The Police, Eurythmics, Bruce Springstien, Lionel Richie, and Prince - but all these albums combined total sales didn't come close to equalling Thriller's."

To which you replied "Do the math. Michael's sales were bonkers., so there's no need to inflate the achievement and pretend he outsold 5 other artists combined. He didn't. "

So here are those artists' releases for the 1983/84 period - a time when for both years Thriller was the highest selling album. All sales figures quoted are for the USA - period ending 1984 and are certified by RIAA.

The Police - Sychronicity was certified with sales of 4 million.

The Eurythmics - Sweet Dreams was certified with sales of 1 million.

Bruce Springsteen - Born in The USA was certified with sales of 3 million.

Lionel Richie - Can't Slow Down certified with sales of 8 million.

Prince - 1999 certified with sales of 2 million.

Thus, doing the math, the 5 artists mentioned have combined sales of 18 million.

For the same period Thriller is certified with 20 million sales.

So did Michael Jackson's Thriller outsell these 5 other artists combined. Yes.

Furthermore, the claim that Michael Jackson helped revive a flagging record industry is not something made to maket the album. It is fact that has been covered in various books and articles, here are a few:

Appetite For Self-Destruction by Steve Knopper - specifically the chapter entitled "1979 - 1982 Disco crashes the record business, Michael Jackson saves the day, and MTV really saves the day".

Time Magazine's 1984 cover story article "Why He's A Thriller" which calls Jackson "a one man rescue team for the music business"

And Billboard's article "How Michael Jackson's Thriller Changed the Music Business" which states "Thriller gave a much-needed boost to the music business, then suffering from its second slump in three years. At the time, Billboard reported that record shipments had declined by 50 million units between 1980 and 1982.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Oh and here are the links

http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?table=tblDiamond

http://www.amazon.com/Appetite-Self-Destruction-Spectacular-Industry-Digital/dp/1416552154

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,950053,00.html

http://www.billboard.com/news/exclusive-how-michael-jackson-s-thriller-1003990525.story#/news/exclusive-how-michael-jackson-s-thriller-1003990525.story%3fpage%3d7