treehouse said:

petes2 said:

Would Prince have dared to do a Purple Rain without Michael's Thriller? Would he have improved his dancing so dramatically in so short a time if he hadn't been made a fool of when Mike called him onstage to Dance with JB?

Huh?

Where'd you get the idea that Prince ran from the spotlight after Purple Rain? He participated in 3 more films after that. Their failures weren't intentional.

Michael on the other hand lost respect after Thriller.

Thriller came out just before 1983. Prince released Purple Rain in the summer of 1984 featuring recordings from a live show that happened in August of 1983.

That's less than 9 months between Thrillers release and Purple Rain's conception and first public exposure, and according to Prince's manager at the time, he was working on the concept as early as 1982 while touring for 1999. Maybe you should give Prince credit for inspiring MJ with 1999?

When Prince joined MJ and James onstage, he DANCED mored than he played, and he was already in Purple Rain mode.

Prince was certainly inspired and maybe influenced ....you can see you When Doves Cry was easier to release as a single after Billie Jean's succes .... but to say Prince wouldn't have "dared" to make Purple Rain?.... on a Prince fan forum? No way.

[Edited 12/31/11 15:13pm]

[Edited 12/31/11 15:16pm]

He didn't run from the spotlight altogether but those were his words, that he didn't really care much for that level of stardom. Kurt Loder mused in the RS review of SOTT as much. ATWIAD got rid of most of the Purple Rain "fans" alienated some of his loyal fanbase but kept enough to live the lifestyle he's lived. Thriller singelehandedly pulled the whole record business out of the doldrums, and everyone benifitted, Prince included so without Thriller who knows how successful Purple Rain would be. There was a vacuum for an alternative certainly, and even a vacuum for a white guy like Springsteen to come in big. People want to make Mike a joke and put him on the level of Milli Vanilli or Justin Beiber or whoever can feel that way if they want but it stops at revisionist history. And if you think Prince didn't make an ass and a fool out of himself when he got on stage with James and Mike I'd like to know what kind of purple drugs you're on. Maybe the same ones he was.

Artists like Eddy Grant and Rick James were charting for their sound which had a crossover appeal at the time. Perhaps that inspired Prince's direction after 1999 too if not Thriller?

petes2 said:

Thriller singelehandedly pulled the whole record business out of the doldrums, and everyone benifitted

Yeah, because The Police and Lionel Richie didn't sell a single album the year Thriller came out, right?

AC/DC couldn't sell a record, and the 80's were full of doldrums.... until Michael Saved the Planet...and inspired Purple Rain.

C'mon son.

treehouse said:

petes2 said:

Thriller singelehandedly pulled the whole record business out of the doldrums, and everyone benifitted

Yeah, because The Police and Lionel Richie didn't sell a single album the year Thriller came out, right?

AC/DC couldn't sell a record, and the 80's were full of doldrums.... until Michael Saved the Planet...and inspired Purple Rain.

C'mon son.

They were absolutely selling and put out great music, as was Prince with 1999, but the quantities had declined and the buying public was into video games and arcades more than records.

http://didyouknowthisabou...music.html

that link tells you a little more of Mike's influence in the era. Also, Quincy Jones madate to the other men working on Thriller was "We are here to save the record business".Look, I lived through the era and remember so you can't tell me otherwise. I've studied Prince and Michael a bunch and know what I'm talking about. Prince danced like a new waver up until 1999 and then, with Michaels having made a fool of him made up for lost time becoming a competent dancer. Prince was doing new wave, mick jagger moves up until 1999 or so. If you guys don't want to give Mike any credit so be it but like i said, don't be a revisionist.

[Edited 1/1/12 14:18pm]

treehouse said:

petes2 said:

Thriller singelehandedly pulled the whole record business out of the doldrums, and everyone benifitted

Yeah, because The Police and Lionel Richie didn't sell a single album the year Thriller came out, right?

AC/DC couldn't sell a record, and the 80's were full of doldrums.... until Michael Saved the Planet...and inspired Purple Rain.

C'mon son.

It's a well know fact that he pulled the music industry out of a depression per se. He put folks back into the reocrd stores to buy product..even those who never would have previously. And not just for Thriller.

Free2BMe said:

TurnItUp said:

It was a record that didn't happen. Just like the record he never made after Invincible. Hater or not.

[Edited 12/22/11 10:52am]

Sorry, Boo; BUT, the record DID happen. The sad thing is that Michael didn't live to do those shows. That doesn't change the FACT that he SOLD-OUT 50 shows at the 02 arena. Let's be fair and not change the rules to fit YOUR theory. Hater or not.

[Edited 12/24/11 2:45am]

Hater or not, Prince lived to past 50 years old, lived through 2011 to do his shows and has lived to see 2012. Too bad I can't say the same about your idol. Now thats a PROVEN FACT and let's not change the rules, oh that's right you can't because the Lord had the final word. Boo!

[Edited 1/1/12 17:39pm]

petes2 said:Look, I lived through the era and remember so you can't tell me otherwise.

Sorry that doesn't make you qualified.

MJ is a legend in dance, but he ripped off Bob Fosse, stole from street dancers, and he too dabbled in the new wave dancing you disparaged Prince for.

Prince upped his game after working with choreographers for Purple Rain, but many of his signatures were developed on earlier tours.

Go find video of his performance of "Let's work" from 1981 ....

Yes, there's some Bowie in there (No Jagger), but you're blind if you don't see James Brown all over that, or recognize it as essential Prince.

Hint. It's the video wear he's wearing a black tuxedo vest, with a bowtie or neck choker on.

[Edited 1/1/12 23:23pm]

treehouse said:

petes2 said:

Thriller singelehandedly pulled the whole record business out of the doldrums, and everyone benifitted

Yeah, because The Police and Lionel Richie didn't sell a single album the year Thriller came out, right?

AC/DC couldn't sell a record, and the 80's were full of doldrums.... until Michael Saved the Planet...and inspired Purple Rain.

C'mon son.

i notice the type of fanatic that comes to a prince forum just to preach the word of MJ, has an extremely warped view of reality

treehouse said:

treehouse said:

petes2 said:

Thriller singelehandedly pulled the whole record business out of the doldrums, and everyone benifitted

Yeah, because The Police and Lionel Richie didn't sell a single album the year Thriller came out, right?

AC/DC couldn't sell a record, and the 80's were full of doldrums.... until Michael Saved the Planet...and inspired Purple Rain.

C'mon son.

Indeed, bullshit.

Of course Thriller was such a mega success, Prince had the idea for a movie(Purple Rain) already in the 1999 era... so , I don't think it's becasue of MJ he dared to make this movie and album, no way.

Just clearing up a few things.

It is widely recognised and reported that the record industry was in fact in a dire situation in the early 80s. Whilst artists were still selling, it wasn't at the same rate others were, and consumers were spending their dollars elsewhere for entertainment.

When Thriller was released it's success drew people back into record stores, and whilst they were picking up a copy it had a flow on effect for the rest of the industry. You have had many honcho's from competiting record companies say the best thing that happened for thier label in that period was Michael Jackson and Thriller as it got people buying music again.

And yes, in 1983 / 84 during Thriller's peak sales period there were also great albums by The Police, Eurythmics, Bruce Springstien, Lionel Richie, and Prince - but all these albums combined total sales didn't come close to equalling Thriller's.

So arguing that Thriller helped to revive a flagging record industry isn't fare fetched.

Does this mean that Prince's Purple Rain was inspired or helped by Thriller's success. A little yes (it helped a lot of black artists, and recording artists in general) and maybe it helped inspire Prince to see what could be achieved, but for the most part Prince was on his own trajectory. The success of Purple Rain was a combination of his own talent, desire for cross-over success, and a quest to write a few more hits.

Let's not try to rewrite history here people. Both these artists and albums were key moments in two phenominal careers. And both deserve respect.

Swa said:

Let's not try to rewrite history here people.

I agree, let's not.

Do the math. Michael's sales were bonkers., so there's no need to inflate the achievement and pretend he outsold 5 other artists combined. He didn't.

The notion of MJ saving the industry was part of the labels promotion. They marketed the record that way. The truth? Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, Queen and AC/DC were just some of the bands with monster hits just before Thriller, proving sales were healthy and the music industry likes to cry wolf. Thriller was a fluke. Not even MJ could duplicate it.

Curiously absent from your revisionist history...... is the influence of MTV.

P.S. Purple Rain gross $63 million in 13 weeks at the box office.

treehouse said:

Swa said:

Let's not try to rewrite history here people.

I agree, let's not.

Do the math. Michael's sales were bonkers., so there's no need to inflate the achievement and pretend he outsold 5 other artists combined. He didn't.

The notion of MJ saving the industry was part of the labels promotion. They marketed the record that way. The truth? Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, Queen and AC/DC were just some of the bands with monster hits just before Thriller, proving sales were healthy and the music industry likes to cry wolf. Thriller was a fluke. Not even MJ could duplicate it.

Curiously absent from your revisionist history...... is the influence of MTV.

P.S. Purple Rain gross $63 million in 13 weeks at the box office.

MJ's sales were "bonkers" - correct. And yes he did outsell all those other artists combined.

And you are incorrect in your assertion that MJ saving the industry was part of the marketing of epic records to promote Thriller. It's been well documented in many articles and many books about the recording industry during the 80s that the mega blockbuster album that Thriller was did indeed help it recover from a period of decreasing sales. I don't think anyone is saying that sales weren't unhealthy, of course artists had hit albums, but on the whole the industry was in decline.

As for Thriller being a fluke - it is funny that many people will look at it either as calculated or a fluke. And you back it up by saying not even MJ could duplicate it's sales. NO-ONE could and no-one has duplicated the success Thriller had.

And thank you for bringing up MTV - yet it too benefited from Thriller and the 3 videos released from it. Michael obviously benefited from its reach, as it gave him access to audiences across the country, like it did for every other artist on MTV. What the videos of Billie Jean, Beat It and more importantly Thriller did was make MTV a must have channel. Even the historians of MTV will point to Thriller as being a watershed moment for the network.

I'm curious as to why you needed to discuss the box office success of Purple Rain - I don't think anyone here, and certainly not me, has claimed it wasn't huge. It was a number one film, a number one album. It was huge. No denying it.

But by your own assertion, the fact that Prince never again reached the success of Purple Rain in terms of box office or record sales it has to be implied that it too was a fluke.

Neither is the case. Both Thriller and Purple Rain were, and remain to be, phenominal moments in music history and help cement and in some ways launch two great careers.

petes2 said:

http://didyouknowthisabou...music.html

that link tells you a little more of Mike's influence in the era. Also, Quincy Jones madate to the other men working on Thriller was "We are here to save the record business".Look, I lived through the era and remember so you can't tell me otherwise. I've studied Prince and Michael a bunch and know what I'm talking about. Prince danced like a new waver up until 1999 and then, with Michaels having made a fool of him made up for lost time becoming a competent dancer. Prince was doing new wave, mick jagger moves up until 1999 or so. If you guys don't want to give Mike any credit so be it but like i said, don't be a revisionist.

[Edited 1/1/12 14:18pm]

Mj is a great dancer but his moves at the stage of james brown ( 1983 ) just looked silly, because the music was so fast... There is nothing great about it, so i dont think that mike made a fool of prince with these steps....

You are right that until 1999 (1982) prince danced like mick jagger, but with the release of 1999 and the tour he came up with his own combination of moves, which were not bad for a guy, who is dancing in high heels. Watch the video for little red corvette, simply great.

Mike inspired all dancers around the world, but i dont think that the one evening at the stage of james brown forced prince learn so dance moves

Swa said:

I'm curious as to why you needed to discuss the box office success of Purple Rain

Because this is a Prince forum.

Should I clarify that again? You're on a Prince forum.

...and talking about the Wiz's box office isn't nearly as interesting.

...especially if you're now crediting MJ with launching MTV. That sucess was a give and take marriage... and it had a lot to do with timing.

Oh, and the record industy has been whining about the decline in sales for 40 years. It was a joke until a few years ago. That said, when A&M records promoted Thriller by saying the whole industry had a stake in it's sucess, they could have never imagined kids on the interenet would take it seriously and repeat it as fact. It's called marketing. Kind of like dubbing yourself "the King of Pop".

misiu said:

You are right that until 1999 (1982) prince danced like mick jagger

Seriously, how hot are those clips posted up you know where, circa 1981, or earlier?

You'll see the Boogaloo, maybe even a hint of Dancing Machine...before the 1999 tour.

[Edited 1/3/12 11:35am]

treehouse said:

Swa said:

I'm curious as to why you needed to discuss the box office success of Purple Rain

Because this is a Prince forum.

Should I clarify that again? You're on a Prince forum.

...and talking about the Wiz's box office isn't nearly as interesting.

...especially if you're now crediting MJ with launching MTV. That sucess was a give and take marriage... and it had a lot to do with timing.

Oh, and the record industy has been whining about the decline in sales for 40 years. It was a joke until a few years ago. That said, when A&M records promoted Thriller by saying the whole industry had a stake in it's sucess, they could have never imagined kids on the interenet would take it seriously and repeat it as fact. It's called marketing. Kind of like dubbing yourself "the King of Pop".

I do realise this is a Prince forum, as my multiple Prince posts will attest to - weas just curious if you were trying to base it on your argument. And why would A&M be promoting Thriller by saying it - they had nothing to do with Thriller - Thriller was released by Epic Records a subsidary of CBS Records. This just proves tthe point I was making.

As for Michael Jackson's influence and importance on MTV maybe you should read - I Want My MTV.

From the author:

What's the most interesting discovery you made while writing this book?
Tannenbaum: What surprised me the most was the extent to which MTV almost failed. I knew that they'd had some trouble launching. But within two years, they were pretty close to going under. Michael Jackson saved them. And it's just funny to me to imagine the whole Sliding Doors idea. If MTV had shut down in the middle of 1983, imagine how different the '80s would have been? There would have been so many fewer bad haircuts across America. Axl Rose may never have left Lafayette, Indiana. Maybe Bob Seger would have been the biggest artist in America all the way up to 1989.

Maybe instead of being so intent on trying to diminish the importance of another artist, you should learn the facts. It won't impact your appreciation of Prince, but it may help you open your eyes.

treehouse said:

petes2 said:Look, I lived through the era and remember so you can't tell me otherwise.

Sorry that doesn't make you qualified.

MJ is a legend in dance, but he ripped off Bob Fosse, stole from street dancers, and he too dabbled in the new wave dancing you disparaged Prince for.

Prince upped his game after working with choreographers for Purple Rain, but many of his signatures were developed on earlier tours.

Go find video of his performance of "Let's work" from 1981 ....

Yes, there's some Bowie in there (No Jagger), but you're blind if you don't see James Brown all over that, or recognize it as essential Prince.

Hint. It's the video wear he's wearing a black tuxedo vest, with a bowtie or neck choker on.

[Edited 1/1/12 23:23pm]

There's a difference from being influenced and flat out ripping off

Michael was influenced by Fosse, Gene Kelly, The Nicholas Brothers, Astaire, Sammy, and of course James Brown. The most obvious influenced being James as Michael emulated James' moves since he was a kid but he took the ideas or basics from all those dancers then changed things or "enhanced". That's what many dancers do

About the street dancers, he was learned from Jeffery Daniels, Cooley Jackson, and Geron Candidate along with Robot Dane from 1973-1985 on several moves and the moonwalk, locking, the robot and other popping moves. He also learned from the mime acts Shields and Yarnell

and attended some of Martha Graham's classes

I don't really like calling it "Street dance" because they have names:

Popping

Locking

Boogaloo

Robotics

aka the Funk Styles. I do 3 of the styles He didn't steal, he learned from them and added the styles to his own. Pretty simple

[Edited 1/3/12 16:25pm]

Swa said:

And why would A&M be promoting Thriller by saying it - they had nothing to do with Thriller - Thriller was released by Epic Records a subsidary of CBS Records.

Same parent company.

Probably time for you to stop lecturing people on facts.

You don't seem to have any trouble dimishing another artist when it's Prince...I'm just challenging the myths you're using to do it.

treehouse said:

Swa said:

And why would A&M be promoting Thriller by saying it - they had nothing to do with Thriller - Thriller was released by Epic Records a subsidary of CBS Records.

Same parent company.

Probably time for you to stop lecturing people on facts.

You don't seem to have any trouble dimishing another artist when it's Prince...I'm just challenging the myths you're using to do it.

I don't think A&M was ever part of CBS/Sony

bboy87 said:

aka the Funk Styles. I do 3 of the styles

[Edited 1/3/12 16:25pm]

Then why are you calling yourself a "Bboy"?

I refered to it as street dance because I wouldn't expect anyone here to know the difference between popping or locking.

Here's an education... Michael wasn't merely influenced by Fosse, he genuinely ripped him off.

http://youtu.be/MKbR8pzpNlM

There's more Fosse in the last 35 years of MJ's dance than James Brown.

bboy87 said:

I don't think A&M was ever part of CBS/Sony

CBS was the international distributor for both A&M and Epic.

treehouse said:

bboy87 said:

aka the Funk Styles. I do 3 of the styles

[Edited 1/3/12 16:25pm]

Then why are you calling yourself a "Bboy"?

I refered to it as street dance because I wouldn't expect anyone here to know the difference between popping or locking.

Here's an education... Michael wasn't merely influenced by Fosse, he genuinely ripped him off.

http://youtu.be/MKbR8pzpNlM

There's more Fosse in the last 35 years of MJ's dance than James Brown.

I tried bboying when I made my username back in 2004 when I was 16 I'm a popper though

I've seen that clip. I see Fosse, Astaire, Sammy Davis, and Jeffery Daniels all through that routine

looking through his videos....

Bad and Beat It were inspired by West Side Story (just checked the choreography was done by Jerome Robbins)

Billie Jean's video was inspired by a scene in Bandwagon

Smooth Criminal is inspired by Bandwagon also

his performance of Dangerous was inspired by Judy Garland in Summer Stock

http://youtu.be/2U-rBZREQMw

his roboting and locking, he learned from Robot Dane, Tony Basil and The Lockers

http://www.youtube.com/wa...csTiYhRSns

credit also goes to dancers like Cooley, Jeffery, Boogaloo Shrimp, Geron Candidate, Michael Peters, and Vincent Patterson as they also helped shape his style

treehouse said:

Swa said:

And why would A&M be promoting Thriller by saying it - they had nothing to do with Thriller - Thriller was released by Epic Records a subsidary of CBS Records.

Same parent company.

Probably time for you to stop lecturing people on facts.

You don't seem to have any trouble dimishing another artist when it's Prince...I'm just challenging the myths you're using to do it.

Actually - during that period A&M was an independant label with distribution through RCA in the USA - which was owned by Arista - later BMG now Universal. So they weren't the same parent company. A&M did distribute through CBS in some overseas regions but the quotes about the recording industry being in decline have always been focused around the state of the US market - where Thriller had the biggest impact.

Also please point out any instance I have been "dimishing" (which I assume you mean diminishing, but who knows) about Prince in these discussions.

You'll see I have respect for both artists and have repeatedly given credit to both.

[Edited 1/3/12 17:51pm]

bboy87 said:

I tried bboying when I made my username back in 2004 when I was 16 I'm a popper though

Goodie, but clearly you're not the person to take issue with muddying the terminology considering you're calling yourself a "popper", even though you claim you dabble in 3 different funk styles, and have a screen name of a "bboy". Showing off isn't a good look for you.

treehouse said:

bboy87 said:

I tried bboying when I made my username back in 2004 when I was 16 I'm a popper though

Goodie, but clearly you're not the person to take issue with muddying the terminology considering you're calling yourself a "popper", even though you claim you dabble in 3 different funk styles, and have a screen name of a "bboy". Showing off isn't a good look for you.

I'm not showing off I was just saying I don't like people calling it "street dance" Wasn't slighting anyone

I said popper because that's the style I've done mostly

Swa said:

A&M did distribute through CBS in some overseas regions

[Edited 1/3/12 17:51pm]

CBS handled ALL worldwide distribution for BOTH companies. End of story.

It was a shared financial interest.

Speaking of which, the inflated sales numbers tossed around are international sales figures.

It's laughable that MJ fans are so insecure that they have to invent a folklore around his already impressive achievements. He didn't invent, or save the record industry, or the music video industry, or music films. Sorry. He didn't resurect Prince's career. He doesn't deserve credit for Purple Rain in any way. Period.