I've been thinking about this for a little while now but Prince's best work could be decscribed as pretty 'white' sounding and most of his bad stuff, post '91ish is when he's trying to sound 'black'

perhaps he just needs to start making more white music again....

Discuss!

RicoN said:

I've been thinking about this for a little while now but Prince's best work could be decscribed as pretty 'white' sounding and most of his bad stuff, post '91ish is when he's trying to sound 'black'

perhaps he just needs to start making more white music again....

Discuss!

I don't hear or see black or white when I listen to his music.

I was referring to stuff like the 'black' charts etc...

Oh ok.

It feels like his newer albums are trying to appeal to both markets. There is stuff like Somewhere Here on Earth, On the Couch, Get on the Boat and then songs like Lolita, Fury and Guitar but thinking about it................he's been doing this since Controversy!

I like when he works blue.

Purple Music all the way

^^^^^^ LOL i like that reply.

but....Thats the thing with Prince. How he is able to mix the sounds of so called "white" and "black" music effortlessly.

RicoN said:

I've been thinking about this for a little while now but Prince's best work could be decscribed as pretty 'white' sounding and most of his bad stuff, post '91ish is when he's trying to sound 'black'

perhaps he just needs to start making more white music again....

Discuss!

I think his 'white' music is far more interesting than his 'black' music.

The primary reason is that most of the time, when he's playing with white genres, he's making the music very much his own thing, normally with a heavy dose of black infuence.

But, when he does 'black' music, it's almost as if he's immitating or following a trend. This is not always the case, and there are exceptions. But it seems when he does 'white' music, it done in such a way that folks say, "wow--I've never heard anything like that", but when he does 'black'music, it sounds like he's paying homage or ....immitating.

But then again, LoveSexy is 'black' and probably one of his most interesting albums.

.

[Edited 10/26/11 7:07am]

The above post brings up some good points. But this is music we're talking about. Music has genres not ethnicities. Now if you want to talk about the relationship of certain genres of music to certain ethnicities of people, I'm all game. But until those terms are cleared up I don't think there is much room for discussion.

Examples please?

RicoN said:

I've been thinking about this for a little while now but Prince's best work could be decscribed as pretty 'white' sounding and most of his bad stuff, post '91ish is when he's trying to sound 'black'

perhaps he just needs to start making more white music again....

Discuss!

So let me ask this:

So you meant to use the "greater sign" on purpose in the title?

As soon as I saw that, I thought, "Oh Boy... Here we go again."

I totally agree with MarquessMarq's post:

You're assuming that one style that Prince has employed only fits one group of people, while another fits another. When we think in such concrete terms, it causes a problem.

Do you mean to say that you feel that a particular genre has better suited your taste and you're looking for someone to cosign?

An additional problem for this discussion is the misconception of what is "white music" because rock-n-roll is generally associated with the "white" charts or music that is purchased mostly by whites, but it was created by African American musicians. With that understanding of music history, one could say that Prince creates mostly "black" music because blues, rock, soul, r&b, funk, and jazz are all forms created by African Americans. So rather than doing "white" music one could say that Prince is reclaiming an aspect of "black" music, as when Parliament Funkadelic wrote "Who Says a Fuck Band Can't Play Rock." And while Around the World in a Day is a psychedelic classic, let's remember that the Beatles and others were heavily influenced by Billy Preston and other black artists and simply infused their European sensibilities on top of black rhythms.

Also, I've never felt that Prince was just imitating when he was creating funk, soul, and r&b. For instance, "Adore," which has an equal amount of haters and lovers on this site, is just a masterful example of showing the gospel roots of soul music, which is not imitative but creating excellence within the genre. Is "Kiss," a funk tune, retrograde and merely imitating Curtis Mayfield and other soul and funk legends? Now, his rapping sucks, unless it is something like "Irresistible Bitch" where he isn't trying to be an emcee, but, since I don't listen to much rap, his rapping doesn't bother me.

Ultimately, I am most moved by his songs that amalgamate genres so well that it is difficult to tell what they are or where one genre ends and another begins. Many would cite "Electric Chair" as just a rock song, but the drums and bass give it a funk sensibility that makes it as much of a hybrid as anything on Dirty Mind, which has as much funk and soul sensibility as it has rock (punk) sensibility.

Eek! I think we all know what you mean, but maybe the terminology is a little raw?

In 7 pages time it'll be 'well so and so stole this from so and so, so it's all black music any way'. - Not disagreeing with that per se, but that leads to the lock and that isn't the intention of the OP any way, right?

Personally, I tire of Prince's attempts to ape the R&B/hip-hop/urban mainstream in recent years, 3121 and MPLSound are full of this and I think they sound trite and fall flat on their face most of the time. Not that his "white" music is often much more successful - Is 'The 1 U Wanna C' white? Because that sucks too.

It's definately a genre thing. I think the style of music Prince is attempting to emulate when he does tracks like 'Chocolate Box' is a young man's game, and in a lot of ways, it's beneath his musical talent IMO. I'd rather see something more expressive and real - you can still be funky, adventurous and mind-bending without being adolescent.

chocolate1 said:

RicoN said:

I've been thinking about this for a little while now but Prince's best work could be decscribed as pretty 'white' sounding and most of his bad stuff, post '91ish is when he's trying to sound 'black'

perhaps he just needs to start making more white music again....

Discuss!

So let me ask this:

So you meant to use the "greater sign" on purpose in the title?

As soon as I saw that, I thought, "Oh Boy... Here we go again."

I totally agree with MarquessMarq's post:

Music has genres not ethnicities. Now if you want to talk about the relationship of certain genres of music to certain ethnicities of people, I'm all game. But until those terms are cleared up I don't think there is much room for discussion.

You're assuming that one style that Prince has employed only fits one group of people, while another fits another. When we think in such concrete terms, it causes a problem.

Do you mean to say that you feel that a particular genre has better suited your taste and you're looking for someone to cosign?

Absolutely. If the man's music moves me, I could care less under what label it's classified. Prince's musical diversity is one of the reasons I'm still a fan today, so let's just enjoy the man and his music while we can, minus the labeling.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Purple Music all the way

NouveauDance said:

Eek! I think we all know what you mean, but maybe the terminology is a little raw?

In 7 pages time it'll be 'well so and so stole this from so and so, so it's all black music any way'. - Not disagreeing with that per se, but that leads to the lock and that isn't the intention of the OP any way, right?

Personally, I tire of Prince's attempts to ape the R&B/hip-hop/urban mainstream in recent years, 3121 and MPLSound are full of this and I think they sound trite and fall flat on their face most of the time. Not that his "white" music is often much more successful - Is 'The 1 U Wanna C' white? Because that sucks too.

It's definately a genre thing. I think the style of music Prince is attempting to emulate when he does tracks like 'Chocolate Box' is a young man's game, and in a lot of ways, it's beneath his musical talent IMO. I'd rather see something more expressive and real - you can still be funky, adventurous and mind-bending without being adolescent.

Co-Sign!!!

1725topp said:

An additional problem for this discussion is the misconception of what is "white music" because rock-n-roll is generally associated with the "white" charts or music that is purchased mostly by whites, but it was created by African American musicians. With that understanding of music history, one could say that Prince creates mostly "black" music because blues, rock, soul, r&b, funk, and jazz are all forms created by African Americans. So rather than doing "white" music one could say that Prince is reclaiming an aspect of "black" music, as when Parliament Funkadelic wrote "Who Says a Fuck Band Can't Play Rock." And while Around the World in a Day is a psychedelic classic, let's remember that the Beatles and others were heavily influenced by Billy Preston and other black artists and simply infused their European sensibilities on top of black rhythms.

Also, I've never felt that Prince was just imitating when he was creating funk, soul, and r&b. For instance, "Adore," which has an equal amount of haters and lovers on this site, is just a masterful example of showing the gospel roots of soul music, which is not imitative but creating excellence within the genre. Is "Kiss," a funk tune, retrograde and merely imitating Curtis Mayfield and other soul and funk legends? Now, his rapping sucks, unless it is something like "Irresistible Bitch" where he isn't trying to be an emcee, but, since I don't listen to much rap, his rapping doesn't bother me.

Ultimately, I am most moved by his songs that amalgamate genres so well that it is difficult to tell what they are or where one genre ends and another begins. Many would cite "Electric Chair" as just a rock song, but the drums and bass give it a funk sensibility that makes it as much of a hybrid as anything on Dirty Mind, which has as much funk and soul sensibility as it has rock (punk) sensibility.

That's not a statement of fact. More like an opinion from someone who doesn't even particularly like rap. Prince doesn't have to be on the level Rakim or Jayz to rap effectively. I think his catolog would be less rich if we removed songs like:

SexyMF

Gettoff

Days of wild

Pussy control

Irresitable bitch

Come On

18 & over

Dead on it

amongst others

Prince actually has embraced hip-hop to degree none of of peers attempted too. Instead of being accused of "following trends" I see it as Prince being adventuous and fearless enough to chart new territory. Prince has never been interested in doing just what he "does best". What he does best is predicated on the particular listener and we know there is no concensus on that.

imago said:

RicoN said:

I've been thinking about this for a little while now but Prince's best work could be decscribed as pretty 'white' sounding and most of his bad stuff, post '91ish is when he's trying to sound 'black'

perhaps he just needs to start making more white music again....

Discuss!

I think his 'white' music is far more interesting than his 'black' music.

The primary reason is that most of the time, when he's playing with white genres, he's making the music very much his own thing, normally with a heavy dose of black infuence.

But, when he does 'black' music, it's almost as if he's immitating or following a trend. This is not always the case, and there are exceptions. But it seems when he does 'white' music, it done in such a way that folks say, "wow--I've never heard anything like that", but when he does 'black'music, it sounds like he's paying homage or ....immitating.

But then again, LoveSexy is 'black' and probably one of his most interesting albums.

.

[Edited 10/26/11 7:07am]

Depends on where you stand. Its non-sensical to even say Prince is imitating a trend when he does "black music". He is black after all. So 3121, Old school company, and musicology are less worthy because they seem more "black"?

RicoN said:

I've been thinking about this for a little while now but Prince's best work could be decscribed as pretty 'white' sounding and most of his bad stuff, post '91ish is when he's trying to sound 'black'

perhaps he just needs to start making more white music again....

Discuss!

So you are saying he wasn't "trying to sound black" with "do me baby', "soft and wet" and "DMSR"? He has only been trying to "sound black" since 91?

I agree with the idea that his music is best when its 'integrated'. Songs like Purple Rain, U Got the Look, Anastesia, Rasperry Beret, Te Amo Corazon, The ? of You, and so many more are excellent, creative, and cross-genre master pieces. I think his ability to throw in different elements of rock, latin, R&B, funk, and occasionally pop is what has gained him such a diverse fan base and placed him as a favorite among many musicians from all races and genres. One of my favorite all time songs is Adore because it is a great love song no matter if you're black, white, or purple. Now that I'm hearing more of his unreleased music, I think he's definitely not just a black or white music kinda guy, which is great.

Graycap23 said:

That was my initial reaction...

NouveauDance said:

Eek! I think we all know what you mean, but maybe the terminology is a little raw?

In 7 pages time it'll be 'well so and so stole this from so and so, so it's all black music any way'. - Not disagreeing with that per se, but that leads to the lock and that isn't the intention of the OP any way, right?

Personally, I tire of Prince's attempts to ape the R&B/hip-hop/urban mainstream in recent years, 3121 and MPLSound are full of this and I think they sound trite and fall flat on their face most of the time. Not that his "white" music is often much more successful - Is 'The 1 U Wanna C' white? Because that sucks too.

It's definately a genre thing. I think the style of music Prince is attempting to emulate when he does tracks like 'Chocolate Box' is a young man's game, and in a lot of ways, it's beneath his musical talent IMO. I'd rather see something more expressive and real - you can still be funky, adventurous and mind-bending without being adolescent.

No, I definitely don't want my comments to create a "one race is better than another race" or "one race stole from another race" discussion, but one of the reasons that so many African American artists and listeners have been limited or limited themselves is because they have been smothered in a culture that tells them who they are, and, often, that notion of who they are is wrong. Being called "white boy lover" in high school for liking rock was a clear indication that most of my peers had a very limited if not misguided understanding of black culture and history. So, it becomes important to me to say that while the overwhelmingly majority of artists who have played rock have been white, the sound and sensibility of it was created by African Americans. This is only important in that when one asserts that Prince's best work is when he is working in a white aesthetic we can say that the rock aesthetic is not a white aesthetic, which works to give African Americans credit for their positive contributions to society while making sure that both blacks and whites understand the diversity of African Americans, which can work to lessen self-hated and racial oppression.

I agree that songs like "Chocolate Box" and "Mr. Goodnite" do border on the juvenile, but they don't bother me as much as they bother others. I do have a preference as to what a fifty-year-old should discuss. However, most artists, and most men, tend to have a major issue with getting older or just plain old. Will Jack Nicholson ever date anyone his own age? And, of course, the same can be asked of Prince. So, I see songs like "Chocolate Box" and "Mr. Goodnite" more as attempts to say, 'I'm still sexy," and not so much pandering to urban Radio. As someone else mentioned, was he pandering to urban radio with "Do Me, Baby" or "International Lover"? Prince is as much an r&b/soul artist as he is a rock artist, and I don't think that you are denying that. I think that we may most disagree where you see "Chocolate Box" and "Mr. Goodnite" as poorly pandering to urban radio, hopefully not putting words in your mouth, I see them as an older man trying too hard to be sexy. But, let me add that I love "Future Baby Mama" as a sold r&b jam.

Tricky99 said: That's not a statement of fact. More like an opinion from someone who doesn't even particularly like rap.

I thought that it was understood that it was my very subjective opinion because I continued to say that I don't like rap. My point is that something like "Irresistible Bitch" seems to be less choppy and organic to me than some of his other raps. Then, again, I like "Sexy MF," "Push," "Jughead," (hate both raps in "Love 2 d 9s" and "Sticky Like Glue" as they almost destroy both songs for me), "Days 'O' Wild," "Now," and "Gett Off," but I also know that my lack of exposure to rap makes me limited in what I could cite as well-crafted rap. But, I have yet to see any scholar of rap say that Prince raps well. Again, I don't care whether he gets love from the hip hop community so even the raps that don't move me as much don't bother me because I don't listen to enough rap to be bothered by poorly written and delivered raps. Again, my point was that I don’t see his rapping as pandering to urban radio as much as him being a diverse or wide-ranging musician trying to show that he can do anything. He has never been one to shy from competition as he mouthed, “Whatever you want” at the end of “Daddy Pop” on the Arsenio Hall Show.

Prince struggles with wanting to be the man, the best or funkiest musican, and with wanting to be an artist that makes meaningful statements. That is just part of the competitive community of Minneapolis musicians that molded him. And part of that includes wanting to create all types of music because he can and because he likes all types of music. While some see it as pandering, I see it as him just being who he is.

NouveauDance said:

Eek! I think we all know what you mean, but maybe the terminology is a little raw?

In 7 pages time it'll be 'well so and so stole this from so and so, so it's all black music any way'. - Not disagreeing with that per se, but that leads to the lock and that isn't the intention of the OP any way, right?

Personally, I tire of Prince's attempts to ape the R&B/hip-hop/urban mainstream in recent years, 3121 and MPLSound are full of this and I think they sound trite and fall flat on their face most of the time. Not that his "white" music is often much more successful - Is 'The 1 U Wanna C' white? Because that sucks too.

It's definately a genre thing. I think the style of music Prince is attempting to emulate when he does tracks like 'Chocolate Box' is a young man's game, and in a lot of ways, it's beneath his musical talent IMO. I'd rather see something more expressive and real - you can still be funky, adventurous and mind-bending without being adolescent.

I with U here.

There is a lot of Prince music to me that just doesn't sound 'black or white' most of this was achieved in the 1980's when a lot of musical fusion was happening.

There are songs like Love or Money which too me harkens to a "Soul" sound but when Prince did this it for some reason sound like "Prince" music not "Soul" music.

And a song like Computer Blue which can almost be a level of "Hard Rock" but when Prince does it it sound like "Prince" music.

In the 1990's a different influence came into his music altogether including rap and a lot of it did sound more like what was being done by everybody else. I still don't care for the rap attempts or the more recent straight forward RnB attempts. Cause it feels like he's trying hard.

I know a lot of people don't like it, but the Rainbow Children is overall his more "Prince" sounding album from beginning 2 end from 1991-2010

Its a fusion of different styles but it's not a specific genre, but it sounds like an 2000 edition of music Princ did in the 1980's. I'm not talking about the message or what's behind the message, but he music

OldFriends4Sale said:

NouveauDance said:

Eek! I think we all know what you mean, but maybe the terminology is a little raw?

In 7 pages time it'll be 'well so and so stole this from so and so, so it's all black music any way'. - Not disagreeing with that per se, but that leads to the lock and that isn't the intention of the OP any way, right?

Personally, I tire of Prince's attempts to ape the R&B/hip-hop/urban mainstream in recent years, 3121 and MPLSound are full of this and I think they sound trite and fall flat on their face most of the time. Not that his "white" music is often much more successful - Is 'The 1 U Wanna C' white? Because that sucks too.

It's definately a genre thing. I think the style of music Prince is attempting to emulate when he does tracks like 'Chocolate Box' is a young man's game, and in a lot of ways, it's beneath his musical talent IMO. I'd rather see something more expressive and real - you can still be funky, adventurous and mind-bending without being adolescent.

I with U here.

There is a lot of Prince music to me that just doesn't sound 'black or white' most of this was achieved in the 1980's when a lot of musical fusion was happening.

There are songs like Love or Money which too me harkens to a "Soul" sound but when Prince did this it for some reason sound like "Prince" music not "Soul" music.

And a song like Computer Blue which can almost be a level of "Hard Rock" but when Prince does it it sound like "Prince" music.

In the 1990's a different influence came into his music altogether including rap and a lot of it did sound more like what was being done by everybody else. I still don't care for the rap attempts or the more recent straight forward RnB attempts. Cause it feels like he's trying hard.

I know a lot of people don't like it, but the Rainbow Children is overall his more "Prince" sounding album from beginning 2 end from 1991-2010

Its a fusion of different styles but it's not a specific genre, but it sounds like an 2000 edition of music Princ did in the 1980's. I'm not talking about the message or what's behind the message, but he music

But I have also seen people say on here that TRC was an attempt of Prince to do Jazz or neo-soul. So I don't really get the "he's trying to hard" thing. It really just comes down to do you like it or not. If you don't like it maybe that appears as him "trying too hard".

There are many fans who have a general disdain for R&B and conversely there are fans who think the new Time (I mean original 7) is the best thing since sliced bread because they fall in the prince funk camp.

To get the most out of Prince it's best to be able stretch musically otherwise you miss the whole wonderful genuis of the man

[Edited 10/26/11 12:19pm]

OldFriends4Sale said:

NouveauDance said:

Eek! I think we all know what you mean, but maybe the terminology is a little raw?

In 7 pages time it'll be 'well so and so stole this from so and so, so it's all black music any way'. - Not disagreeing with that per se, but that leads to the lock and that isn't the intention of the OP any way, right?

Personally, I tire of Prince's attempts to ape the R&B/hip-hop/urban mainstream in recent years, 3121 and MPLSound are full of this and I think they sound trite and fall flat on their face most of the time. Not that his "white" music is often much more successful - Is 'The 1 U Wanna C' white? Because that sucks too.

It's definately a genre thing. I think the style of music Prince is attempting to emulate when he does tracks like 'Chocolate Box' is a young man's game, and in a lot of ways, it's beneath his musical talent IMO. I'd rather see something more expressive and real - you can still be funky, adventurous and mind-bending without being adolescent.

I with U here.

There is a lot of Prince music to me that just doesn't sound 'black or white' most of this was achieved in the 1980's when a lot of musical fusion was happening.

There are songs like Love or Money which too me harkens to a "Soul" sound but when Prince did this it for some reason sound like "Prince" music not "Soul" music.

And a song like Computer Blue which can almost be a level of "Hard Rock" but when Prince does it it sound like "Prince" music.

In the 1990's a different influence came into his music altogether including rap and a lot of it did sound more like what was being done by everybody else. I still don't care for the rap attempts or the more recent straight forward RnB attempts. Cause it feels like he's trying hard.

I know a lot of people don't like it, but the Rainbow Children is overall his more "Prince" sounding album from beginning 2 end from 1991-2010

Its a fusion of different styles but it's not a specific genre, but it sounds like an 2000 edition of music Princ did in the 1980's. I'm not talking about the message or what's behind the message, but he music

I agree with you. What's strange to me is that many people refer to TRC as his jazz album, when actually NEWS delves into more pure jazz. TRC has funk, rock, really bad opera, r&b, as well as alternative jazz styles.

Thanks for posting chaps. The title is intentionally provovative, I wanted people to respond like they have.

Firstly, the 'black' 'white' music thing cropped up in my head whilst i was reading DMSR and it goes on about how he lost certain sections of his audience and the demographic of his audience changed around dirty mind / controversy....

So i was thinking what is black music, what is white music etc... the roots of music re there for us all to see and like someone said'white' music tends to be the rock which is based on the blues...

but if you were being lazy you could breaoly describe ATWIAD & Parade (and most of SOTT/Crystal Ball) as white and that I feel, as imago said, is his most interesting period, songraft wise.

whereas i think Prince is at his not-so-goodest when he's dong seond rate hip-hop, which can lazily described as black...

I find it weird how in the US they have these distinctions between charts and I wanted to explore it through the medium of the music I love

my mind is still very open to all opinions on this subject

So ppl think Prince's "white music" is the good music and his "black music" is the bad music?

The songs intended for black people = Prince not as his best and just doing nonsense hip hop styles to please black people...and his songs intended for the white crowd=Prince trying to impress white people therefore making really good music? did i get it right?

people are very sensitive regarding this matter. Modern popular music is mainly a merge between western african and western european music in different degrees. It has always been easier to say white instead of western european, and black instead of western african. In my music history class in Norway we simplified it like that, and I agree, I kinda reacted towards this myself, but it was never put in a negative way.

I think what some people tried to say on here is that when Prince is doing "white" music. He is putting already known styles in a different context, mostly since he has another type of music language than most others doing similar "white" music. Kinda like when Eminem is rapping, or when Tom Waits is singing like Howlin Wolf. Taking ideas from a total different place and performing it with a language that is known, you'll get interesting interpretations.