Spinlight said:

I couldn't give a crap if the Time and the Family had to use new names. The fact the new names totally suck is interesting, though. Shows you how many notches below him they are in creativity at least.

That being said, Prince is a complete douchebag when it comes to business affairs. He is entirely stupid about it. He doesn't respect anyone, doesn't chase the right enemies, and doesn't actually do a damn thing to benefit his brand.

When Prince stops caring so much about being flagrant about his wealth, he'll make good music again. But until then, he will do like the big labels do and put out a bunch of inept, lame-brain music that caters to his caviar tastes.

Personally, I wish Prince would get really fucked over in a relationship or he would lose a ton of money. Last time those things happened to him, he seemed to be on fire for several years. He needs some real shit to happen anymore, otherwise his life is full of zero experiences to shed any light and has no stories to fuckin' tell.

Sweetie, i beg to differ that 'The Time' and 'The Family' are any more wildly creative than 'Fdeluxe' or 'The Original 7ven'... really!?

Did you guys watch the documentary that comes with the CD? The guys are really candid about alot of things.

TrevorAyer said:

seems to me there was a deal that morris would give prince the rights to a morris song called 'party up' and prince would give morris a band called THE TIME

so prince went back on that deal

it is very common belief that those who have money usually get it by doing some pretty evil acts

in the case of prince .. the record company treated prince like a slave and considered him "work for hire" .. as in saying prince would never have written those songs if not for the record company and there for the record company own all the rights and masters

i would agree that prince takes a similar approach to his collaborators, insisting that because prince is in the room prince "wrote" the song and "owns" the song .. even tho others contributed to its creation .. prince acts as tho all other input is merely "work for hire" on his songs, when often his best and most profitable work is collaborative

prince creates the illusion of giving credit to his protiges by not crediting himself on those non prince records, but behind the scenes, ensures that prince gets all the money

prince creates the illusion of being a one man super genius by not giving credit to those who wrote the songs that appear on prince records, and refusing to allow his band to appear on record on many of the songs they worked on and wrote during rehearsals with prince

I am sure some of this attitude came from WB. Often a rec company will pressure artists to streamline credits and thus payments to something simple like .. just prince .. or just lennon and mccartney, even tho giving that credit is a false representation of who actually wrote the music .. less people to pay, less legal crap to figure out every time some random musician gives you a good idea

there are a lot of bands and musicians that have been signed by record companies that got dropped after years of work, never to have a record released .. seem to happen a lot .. prince seems to do the same with some of his artists for his vanity labels over the years .. part of it may be just poor choices by prince, but part of it may be the nature of the business

all in all, prince would do well spiritually to share the wealth he has accumulated from others hard work and contributions to his empire, but then he would not be able to live like a spoiled brat anymore from that profitable era, he would have to put out good music that he made all by himself to live in that much luxury. and he just does not have the songwriting abilities to do that all by himself anymore. so he is stuck between righting the wrong and living like a normal person, and he won't choose the latter, obviously

the record biz is all about promoting a star and blowing smoke up that stars ass .. its not about promoting a huge team of people and paying them all fairly .. what ruffles prince feathers is for him, the star, to be considered work for hire. even tho he doesn't mind the perks of treating his posse and collaborators like work for hire, he didn't realize until much later that he was being treated the same way. he got fooled into thinking he was much more important to the record company than he actually was, so they could get the quality work for hire out of him that they did. he figured out what was done to him, but never figured out what he in turn did to others in the same vein.

Can you give some concrete examples of this?

[Edited 10/19/11 0:53am]

SoulAlive said:

purpledoveuk said:

The one thing Im surprised Prince does do quite a bit, especially with his gripe about WB and the industry, is play God with protégés careers...seems needlessly spiteful.

Everything is cool as long as they shut up,don't ask any questions and let him take total control The moment when they decide to take control of their destiny,that's when he gets pissed and retaliates.

I have no sypmathy for them. Prince didn't become unique by being someone's plaything. If you want to be recognised as an individual then you need to do it by yourself. Or at least use people to get there.

It seems to me that nobody except ourselves has any idea who Prince manages. Maybe a few Americans that are close to that scene but as for the wider world I don't think, for example, Bria was ever going to match Beyonce. I'm guessing all the people he manages know that, or are they so stage struck they can't think staight?

iloveannie said:

bobbyperu said:

All of this is exactly the reason why Candy Dulfer and Lois Lane didn't want P to produce their albums. Does anybody here have any old Uptown magazines? There's an interview with Owen Husney there where he says that he wished P was a bit more Berry Gordy-oriented, turning Paisley Park into a new Motown with Morris and Jesse etc as staff writers. But instead he fucked everybody up, making them think that they could be like him, do it all by themselves and be as big as Prince was. That wasn't Prince's fault, that's just the way he is and the effect he had on people. And The Time are still suffering from it, still trying to make it pulling the same trick they did 30 years ago. If they really want to put the Prince days behind them, they have to use a new name. And a better one than the Original sevenven.

I think it's a shame that Prince didn't realize how much talent he had around him.Paisley Park Records could have been the Motown of the 80s if he had utilized the writing/producing talents of Jam and Lewis,Andre Cymone and others.Instead,he tried to do it all himself and failed big time.

rdhull said:

funkyhead said:

....and all the other record companies out there?

Just from the outside looking in [and being totally unaware of the actual facts!] P really is coming across as being just as bad as the record companies he battles against. Worst still he's pissing all over those that were friends and lovers.

he put those friends n lovers on the map..all with his material and vision

WB put Prince on the map... with their support and marketing.

TrevorAyer said:

seems to me there was a deal that morris would give prince the rights to a morris song called 'party up' and prince would give morris a band called THE TIME

so prince went back on that deal

it is very common belief that those who have money usually get it by doing some pretty evil acts

in the case of prince .. the record company treated prince like a slave and considered him "work for hire" .. as in saying prince would never have written those songs if not for the record company and there for the record company own all the rights and masters

i would agree that prince takes a similar approach to his collaborators, insisting that because prince is in the room prince "wrote" the song and "owns" the song .. even tho others contributed to its creation .. prince acts as tho all other input is merely "work for hire" on his songs, when often his best and most profitable work is collaborative

prince creates the illusion of giving credit to his protiges by not crediting himself on those non prince records, but behind the scenes, ensures that prince gets all the money

prince creates the illusion of being a one man super genius by not giving credit to those who wrote the songs that appear on prince records, and refusing to allow his band to appear on record on many of the songs they worked on and wrote during rehearsals with prince

I am sure some of this attitude came from WB. Often a rec company will pressure artists to streamline credits and thus payments to something simple like .. just prince .. or just lennon and mccartney, even tho giving that credit is a false representation of who actually wrote the music .. less people to pay, less legal crap to figure out every time some random musician gives you a good idea

there are a lot of bands and musicians that have been signed by record companies that got dropped after years of work, never to have a record released .. seem to happen a lot .. prince seems to do the same with some of his artists for his vanity labels over the years .. part of it may be just poor choices by prince, but part of it may be the nature of the business

all in all, prince would do well spiritually to share the wealth he has accumulated from others hard work and contributions to his empire, but then he would not be able to live like a spoiled brat anymore from that profitable era, he would have to put out good music that he made all by himself to live in that much luxury. and he just does not have the songwriting abilities to do that all by himself anymore. so he is stuck between righting the wrong and living like a normal person, and he won't choose the latter, obviously

the record biz is all about promoting a star and blowing smoke up that stars ass .. its not about promoting a huge team of people and paying them all fairly .. what ruffles prince feathers is for him, the star, to be considered work for hire. even tho he doesn't mind the perks of treating his posse and collaborators like work for hire, he didn't realize until much later that he was being treated the same way. he got fooled into thinking he was much more important to the record company than he actually was, so they could get the quality work for hire out of him that they did. he figured out what was done to him, but never figured out what he in turn did to others in the same vein.

Aren't these statements contradictory?

[Edited 10/19/11 6:13am]

The ideas expressed in this thread are probably the reason why Prince will not allow former proteges to use their original band names. If it can be argued that the Family/the Time is to Prince what Prince is to WB, then Prince risk either loosing the rights to the protege material to former associates, or the material released under his own name to WB (or indeed members of the Revolution).

If Prince is successful in claiming that his albums were not simply ”work for hire”, then former proteges and associates will probably try to make the same claim for themselves. I think we see a preview of this argument in Susannah answers in a recent interview where she states that ”he [Prince] and I had been talking off and on for a while about putting a band together. [...] We’d been listening to a lot of old Rufus [...] and I thought it would be really great to have strings on the record. So it became a real musical outlet for everyone’s ideas even though Prince went in and recorded them. Eric wrote all his own parts, and Paul went in and sang the songs brilliantly. [...] it was clear that it really was a family. And that’s why we were called The Family. We were all involved, we were all working together, and it was a great creative time.”

Prince can not allow former proteges to strengthen their association with the old brands by releasing new albums and touring under their original name.

isn't it amazing that in 2011,we got new albums from the Family and The Time?! Under different names,of course,but with the original bandmembers.This is such a great time for fans of the Minneapolis Sound!! Who could have predicted this?

SoulAlive said:

Did you guys watch the documentary that comes with the CD? The guys are really candid about alot of things.

Spare a thought for those of us who have to jump through hoops to get it!

NouveauDance said:

SoulAlive said:

Did you guys watch the documentary that comes with the CD? The guys are really candid about alot of things.

Spare a thought for those of us who have to jump through hoops to get it!

here's something interesting from it....

Jesse Johnson talks about Prince firing Jam and Lewis from the Time."He (Prince) tells me,"we're not gonna hear nothing from these guys ever again".In 1987 when they won the 1987 Producer Of The Year Grammy,Jesse leaves a voicemail for Prince: "I thought you said we wouldn't hear from them again"

That's hilarious and sad at the same time

SoulAlive said:

Dsoul said:

rdhull said:

he put those friends n lovers on the map..all with his material and vision

WB put Prince on the map... with their support and marketing.

DUH! REALLY?? To make money etc...as a company.

Prince put his friends and lovers on the map to help them out etc. carer-wise etc.

paulludvig said:

The ideas expressed in this thread are probably the reason why Prince will not allow former proteges to use their original band names.

If it can be argued that the Family/the Time is to Prince what Prince is to WB, then Prince risk either loosing the rights to the protege material to former associates, or the material released under his own name to WB (or indeed members of the Revolution).

If Prince is successful in claiming that his albums were not simply ”work for hire”, then former proteges and associates will probably try to make the same claim for themselves.

I think we see a preview of this argument in Susannah answers in a recent interview where she states that ”he [Prince] and I had been talking off and on for a while about putting a band together. [...] We’d been listening to a lot of old Rufus [...] and I thought it would be really great to have strings on the record. So it became a real musical outlet for everyone’s ideas even though Prince went in and recorded them. Eric wrote all his own parts, and Paul went in and sang the songs brilliantly. [...] it was clear that it really was a family. And that’s why we were called The Family. We were all involved, we were all working together, and it was a great creative time.”

Very true.

Prince is playing a VERY risky game when he is saying all his associated artists's contributions should be considered "work for hire". Why shouldn't his then?

In the end this doesn't matter, as long as the US courts will uphold their prior rulings on this issue, as soon as the shit hits the fan in 2013.

Prince can not allow former proteges to strengthen their association with the old brands by releasing new albums and touring under their original name.

Yes he can, but he won't.

Not saying that this is "wrong" of him to do tho'. Just that this is apparant.

[Edited 10/19/11 17:25pm]

TrevorAyer said:

there are a lot of bands and musicians that have been signed by record companies that got dropped after years of work, never to have a record released .. seem to happen a lot ..

Nobody knows how many, but it's true a lot. Too many. It IS the nature of the music business tho. However, its only like this because of what people did with it.

he figured out what was done to him, but never figured out what he in turn did to others in the same vein.

Of course he did.

But like said, that's "the bizz".

[Edited 10/19/11 17:52pm]

oceancrayon said:

Spinlight said:

I couldn't give a crap if the Time and the Family had to use new names. The fact the new names totally suck is interesting, though. Shows you how many notches below him they are in creativity at least.

That being said, Prince is a complete douchebag when it comes to business affairs. He is entirely stupid about it. He doesn't respect anyone, doesn't chase the right enemies, and doesn't actually do a damn thing to benefit his brand.

When Prince stops caring so much about being flagrant about his wealth, he'll make good music again. But until then, he will do like the big labels do and put out a bunch of inept, lame-brain music that caters to his caviar tastes.

Personally, I wish Prince would get really fucked over in a relationship or he would lose a ton of money. Last time those things happened to him, he seemed to be on fire for several years. He needs some real shit to happen anymore, otherwise his life is full of zero experiences to shed any light and has no stories to fuckin' tell.

Sweetie, i beg to differ that 'The Time' and 'The Family' are any more wildly creative than 'Fdeluxe' or 'The Original 7ven'... really!?

Well, actually, yeah I think those names are genius. Genius in their simplicity, genius in their execution, and genius in their concept.

fDeluxe's name has been slammed by its own bandmembers. Doesn't get more sad than that.

Original 7ven's name is kind of a red herring. Even typing it "Original 7even" is nonsensical in a way, but it's a play on words. "7ven" seems different for the sake of it.

I've grown to like 'The Original 7Ven' name (it's not perfect but I can live with it),but I still think 'FDeluxe' is a silly name I'm sure they could have taken more time to come up with a better name than that.

It's kinda fascinating how much of a douche Prince can be in his dealings with his former associates and how little he seems to care about public perception. He is consistent, though.

That said, especially when it comes to The Time, I've always felt that when Prince has not been directly involved with their albums, they don't really sound like albums by "The Time." Doesn't mean they can't do good work without him. But he was one of the two most important members of that band, even if they all denied his involvement back then.

Honestly, the classic Time albums were basically Prince and Morris Day studio projects. Without Prince, "The Time" really isn't "The Time," so I can understand how he feels a sense of ownership over that project, even if he looks like a dick (again).

that "cadillac" song someone posted is the best prince song i have heard in a few decades

who wrote "jungle love" again? was prince just in the room while it was being written? did he record all the parts himself even tho others actually wrote the song?

just curious

I'm glad that the Time have decided to continue their journey.I didn't want 'Pandemonium' to be their final album.It's a good album but I always felt that they could do better and with 'Condensate',they proved that they can.They're also proving that,contrary to popular belief,there is life after Prince.

SoulAlive said:

I'm glad that the Time have decided to continue their journey.I didn't want 'Pandemonium' to be their final album.It's a good album but I always felt that they could do better and with 'Condensate',they proved that they can.They're also proving that,contrary to popular belief,there is life after Prince.

By identifying them as "the Time" you have already proven that there isn't really a life after Prince.

Not without him at least.

Slaves for life.

rdhull said:

Dsoul said:

WB put Prince on the map... with their support and marketing.

DUH! REALLY?? To make money etc...as a company.

Prince put his friends and lovers on the map to help them out etc. carer-wise etc.

You're stuck between two camps now. Is Prince a benevolent kind of fella who helps out friends and lovers or is it a business decision whereby he treats them as copyrighted trademarks? If there's any element of the later then the original question stands, what differentiates him from Warner Bros?

skywalker said:

funkyhead said:

....and all the other record companies out there?

Just from the outside looking in [and being totally unaware of the actual facts!] P really is coming across as being just as bad as the record companies he battles against. Worst still he's pissing all over those that were friends and lovers. All the recent nonsense he's put The Time and The Family through has been more than well documented and IMHO he really sees issues such as artistic freedom, owning your masters etc as a one way street that leads only to him.

Anyways, that's just [an obvious] observation - chip in if you want to!.

Come on P, be generous and treat your fellow artists well and please do not base this on their looks!.

Hmm. It is a bit different. For the most part, all of Prince's acts are simply an extension of Prince. They are, by in large, his songs, his concepts, his ideas. Why wouldn't he want control over that? It is the same reason he fought with WB. He wants what is his. Sure, a strong argument could be made the Morris Day should own a part of The Time. The fact is, Prince is/was the boss. That's how it goes.

i agree but where's the sprit of generosity, where's the good heart?. When you let your kids free and they move house do then set a tonne of restrictions on them?.

Spinlight said:

I couldn't give a crap if the Time and the Family had to use new names. The fact the new names totally suck is interesting, though. Shows you how many notches below him they are in creativity at least.

That being said, Prince is a complete douchebag when it comes to business affairs. He is entirely stupid about it. He doesn't respect anyone, doesn't chase the right enemies, and doesn't actually do a damn thing to benefit his brand.

When Prince stops caring so much about being flagrant about his wealth, he'll make good music again. But until then, he will do like the big labels do and put out a bunch of inept, lame-brain music that caters to his caviar tastes.

Personally, I wish Prince would get really fucked over in a relationship or he would lose a ton of money. Last time those things happened to him, he seemed to be on fire for several years. He needs some real shit to happen anymore, otherwise his life is full of zero experiences to shed any light and has no stories to fuckin' tell.

could not agree more

TrevorAyer said:

that "cadillac" song someone posted is the best prince song i have heard in a few decades

who wrote "jungle love" again? was prince just in the room while it was being written? did he record all the parts himself even tho others actually wrote the song?

just curious

Yet here you are "decades later" whining on a prince forum lol. And like they say there is no accounting for taste.

Tremolina said:

SoulAlive said:

I'm glad that the Time have decided to continue their journey.I didn't want 'Pandemonium' to be their final album.It's a good album but I always felt that they could do better and with 'Condensate',they proved that they can.They're also proving that,contrary to popular belief,there is life after Prince.

By identifying them as "the Time" you have already proven that there isn't really a life after Prince.

Not without him at least.

Slaves for life.

They will always be "The Time" to me,with or without Prince.I don't care who owns the name It's the music that will give them new life after Prince.

..

[Edited 10/20/11 12:34pm]

Dsoul said:

rdhull said:

DUH! REALLY?? To make money etc...as a company.

Prince put his friends and lovers on the map to help them out etc. carer-wise etc.

Is Prince a benevolent kind of fella who helps out friends and lovers

yes

This is one of the best threads on this site in a long time .

It's easy to side with these side projects against Prince but lets be honest. There are 3 sides to every story. Your side,my side, and the truth.

Two sides we have not heard yet.

Bottomline here is if any of these associated artists had any juice they would have moved on and become stars without Prince.

It did not happen with any of these guys except for Jam and Lewis and they did it producing other people.

Now my question is why did Jam and Lewis fade out on the other members of the Time? They could have easily put Morris out there as the "brand name" and created a whole new concept but they did not.

Now here we are 27 and 21 years later and Jam and Lewis are has beens and they are crawling back to the band.

If you blame Prince here for being a asshole then why didn't the super producers Jam and Lewis come to the rescue?