It could be a sole matter of opinion,

however is Prince the Mozart of our day ?

Are they musically on the same level ?

in spite of genres...

What do you think...?

No.

Prince is a fabulously talented pop/musician.

Mozart was a once in a lifetime musical talent. He was composing on the Piano at 5 years of age.

And it wasn't the Batman theme.

So no:-D

If you want to qualify the cliche comparison with the phrase "modern day," then perhaps. However, that says little for the "modern day."

in a word YES

maplesyrupnjam said:

Prince is a fabulously talented pop/musician.

Mozart was a once in a lifetime musical talent. He was composing on the Piano at 5 years of age.

And it wasn't the Batman theme.

So no:-D

Just because someone shows signs of genius at age 5 does not mean another person can't show signs at an older age.

And in a way, Prince has pushed himself to the level of Mozart's genius over time with an incredible work ethic. Sure, Mozart was just composing without conscious pushing of himself and Prince reached that level over a period of time by pushing himself and giving himself the momentum.

Genius can't be gauged by the intention, but it can be gauged by the final product, which in Prince's case can be seen as his entire body of work (including instrument virtuosity, producing ability, movies, persona, interviews, image, composition, etc.)

Can't someone's genius be judged over time? In other words, sure some 5-year-old kid can compose a symphony and be lauded as a genius. Fair enough. But how about the genius in creating a body of work over the course of 50 years. Surely, that could be a work of genius. I don't think there is a timeframe within the definition of genius.

berniejobs said:

maplesyrupnjam said:

Prince is a fabulously talented pop/musician.

Mozart was a once in a lifetime musical talent. He was composing on the Piano at 5 years of age.

And it wasn't the Batman theme.

So no:-D

Just because someone shows signs of genius at age 5 does not mean another person can't show signs at an older age.

And in a way, Prince has pushed himself to the level of Mozart's genius over time with an incredible work ethic. Sure, Mozart was just composing without conscious pushing of himself and Prince reached that level over a period of time by pushing himself and giving himself the momentum.

Genius can't be gauged by the intention, but it can be gauged by the final product, which in Prince's case can be seen as his entire body of work (including instrument virtuosity, producing ability, movies, persona, interviews, image, composition, etc.)

Can't someone's genius be judged over time? In other words, sure some 5-year-old kid can compose a symphony and be lauded as a genius. Fair enough. But how about the genius in creating a body of work over the course of 50 years. Surely, that could be a work of genius. I don't think there is a timeframe within the definition of genius.

How can you possibly know how hard Mozart worked...or what his "intention" was?

Are you suggesting that Prince's entire catalog is bigger than Mozart's? Mozart composed approximately 1000 works, including as many as 68 symphonies, 23 opera, and 18 masses, plus concerti and sonatas for piano, violin, woodwinds, horns. Any of these are more complicated than anything Prince has written.

Mozart died at the age of 35. Prince has almost 20 years on Mozart.

I love Prince - but he ain't in Mozart's league. Period.

Ah, a kind of classical music question - my speciality!

As berniejobs points out, there's lots of "prodigies" who are amazing, even composing, at age 5 (just google and you'll see a bunch of 5 yr olds on piano or violin on youtube; also a large percentage of the musicians playing in respected orchestras were local "prodigies" growing up). So let's look at body of work and skill-level achieved over lifetime, not what someone could do at age 5.

First of all, Mozart died at age 34 (about 20 yrs less than Prince has got on him now). Also, he lived in a time when disease was rampant, toilets were few & far between, and half the year was bitterly cold and you couldn't get anything done. So it's more like he had the modern equivalent of only 16 yrs, yet he mastered all forms of music and was a prolific composer and performer! He's composed over 600 works, many of which are considered the epitome in their respective genres. I write "genres" plural because what the average person calls "classical" music isn't just one genre. He composed what is considered pinnacle works in symphonic music, trios, quartets, quintets, concertos, chamber music, piano music, opera, choral and more. These require vastly different areas of expertise - most "classical" composers have contributed in only one or a few of these areas (e.g., Rachmaninoff - piano, concerto; Beethoven - piano, symphonic). Prince can write an R&B song, a funky song, a pop song - but the difference in expertise required between those styles is very narrow. Just within the genre of choral music, you have subgenres like oratorio, mass and chant. I personally find particularly amazing his virtuosity in vocal forms while also being a kick-ass instrumental music composer.

Secondly, Mozart played every orchestral instrument. By all accounts, he learned quickly and voraciously, almost magically, and could outdo adult teachers in no time. Also notable - his father is an outstanding musician & composer too, and his sister was a prodigy and genius also who was limited in her day by being a girl and ultimately had to give up music as a woman.

Thirdly, not only did he have what some orgers might call "objective" technical ability, he appealed to moods as well. He could go from very humorous (like laugh out loud, seriously!) to very dark, ominous, depressing, "goth"-like vibes. He had a style to his music and personality that was very "rock star" for his day.

I could go on, but in sum, I think Beethoven or Haydn said of Mozart, "posterity will never see one like him again." And that's the consensus of all composers of his time and after. Amen.

hls2000 said:

Ah, a kind of classical music question - my speciality!

As berniejobs points out, there's lots of "prodigies" who are amazing, even composing, at age 5 (just google and you'll see a bunch of 5 yr olds on piano or violin on youtube; also a large percentage of the musicians playing in respected orchestras were local "prodigies" growing up). So let's look at body of work and skill-level achieved over lifetime, not what someone could do at age 5.

First of all, Mozart died at age 34 (about 20 yrs less than Prince has got on him now). Also, he lived in a time when disease was rampant, toilets were few & far between, and half the year was bitterly cold and you couldn't get anything done. So it's more like he had the modern equivalent of only 16 yrs, yet he mastered all forms of music and was a prolific composer and performer! He's composed over 600 works, many of which are considered the epitome in their respective genres. I write "genres" plural because what the average person calls "classical" music isn't just one genre. He composed what is considered pinnacle works in symphonic music, trios, quartets, quintets, concertos, chamber music, piano music, opera, choral and more. These require vastly different areas of expertise - most "classical" composers have contributed in only one or a few of these areas (e.g., Rachmaninoff - piano, concerto; Beethoven - piano, symphonic). Prince can write an R&B song, a funky song, a pop song - but the difference in expertise required between those styles is very narrow. Just within the genre of choral music, you have subgenres like oratorio, mass and chant. I personally find particularly amazing his virtuosity in vocal forms while also being a kick-ass instrumental music composer.

Secondly, Mozart played every orchestral instrument. By all accounts, he learned quickly and voraciously, almost magically, and could outdo adult teachers in no time. Also notable - his father is an outstanding musician & composer too, and his sister was a prodigy and genius also who was limited in her day by being a girl and ultimately had to give up music as a woman.

Thirdly, not only did he have what some orgers might call "objective" technical ability, he appealed to moods as well. He could go from very humorous (like laugh out loud, seriously!) to very dark, ominous, depressing, "goth"-like vibes. He had a style to his music and personality that was very "rock star" for his day.

I could go on, but in sum, I think Beethoven or Haydn said of Mozart, "posterity will never see one like him again." And that's the consensus of all composers of his time and after. Amen.

Here's Mozart in heavy, contemplative mode, listen to it build & build:

Lacrimosa (from the Requiem; means "full of tears..that day...")

Here he is in light, comical mode:

from The Magic Flute (Mozart was able to combine low & high culture, and was quite a fan of "low" culture)

Here's Mozart you'll recognize - he composed this at age 5! Listen past 0:35.

And just for fun, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik (this was considered evening entertaining music, like for balls)

hls2000 said:

He's composed over 600 works, many of which are considered the epitome in their respective genres. I write "genres" plural because what the average person calls "classical" music isn't just one genre. He composed what is considered pinnacle works in symphonic music, trios, quartets, quintets, concertos, chamber music, piano music, opera, choral and more. These require vastly different areas of expertise - most "classical" composers have contributed in only one or a few of these areas (e.g., Rachmaninoff - piano, concerto; Beethoven - piano, symphonic).

Beethoven's not a good example: he, like Mozart, composed "symphonic music, trios, quartets, quintets, concertos, chamber music, piano music, opera, choral and more".

langebleu said:

hls2000 said:

He's composed over 600 works, many of which are considered the epitome in their respective genres. I write "genres" plural because what the average person calls "classical" music isn't just one genre. He composed what is considered pinnacle works in symphonic music, trios, quartets, quintets, concertos, chamber music, piano music, opera, choral and more. These require vastly different areas of expertise - most "classical" composers have contributed in only one or a few of these areas (e.g., Rachmaninoff - piano, concerto; Beethoven - piano, symphonic).

Beethoven's not a good example: he, like Mozart, composed "symphonic music, trios, quartets, quintets, concertos, chamber music, piano music, opera, choral and more".

Beethoven composed opera?? I think no, but if I'm wrong, please point out.

Anyway, I don't think he composed quintessential works in all those genres, though maybe I left out choral (9th Symphony, Ode to Joy). Also, Beethoven had more years on him, and he was definitely in Mozart's shadow. But ultimately, it's a matter of taste, and I'm glad you hold Beethoven in esteem.

As to the comparison w/ Prince, I love his music, of course, but where's his quintessential jazz compositions, for example? The difference in expertise between jazz and blues/R&B is still less than the expertise required between Mozart's genres.

But maybe I'm opening up another can of worms by bringing up jazz.

hls2000 said:

langebleu said:

Beethoven's not a good example: he, like Mozart, composed "symphonic music, trios, quartets, quintets, concertos, chamber music, piano music, opera, choral and more".

Beethoven composed opera?? I think no, but if I'm wrong, please point out.

Anyway, I don't think he composed quintessential works in all those genres, though maybe I left out choral (9th Symphony, Ode to Joy). Also, Beethoven had more years on him, and he was definitely in Mozart's shadow. But ultimately, it's a matter of taste, and I'm glad you hold Beethoven in esteem.

Yes, Beethoven composed opera. Two, in fact - Fidelio and Leonore.

Genesia said:

hls2000 said:

Beethoven composed opera?? I think no, but if I'm wrong, please point out.

Anyway, I don't think he composed quintessential works in all those genres, though maybe I left out choral (9th Symphony, Ode to Joy). Also, Beethoven had more years on him, and he was definitely in Mozart's shadow. But ultimately, it's a matter of taste, and I'm glad you hold Beethoven in esteem.

Yes, Beethoven composed opera. Two, in fact - Fidelio and Leonore.

Oh yes, that. That's one opera - "Fidelio." I think Leonore pretends to be "Fidelio." Have you heard any of it? It's well, ... as I said, Beethoven did not compose quintessential works in every genre. Mozart's Entfuhrung aus dem Serail and Magic Flute are pinnacle works. Even people who hate operas, people who hate Verdi and Puccini, love Mozart operas. Was being nice to langbleu and other Beethoven fans (I'm one too!) by saying it's a matter of taste, but really there's no debate that Mozart overshadows him, I think even Beethoven said that. I know people need to back up stuff to infinity around here w/ citations and other proof, but this is widely accepted. There's a reason why, when people want to pay an exaggerated compliment to a musician, people say "s/he's the Mozart of our time." There's none like him. Especially when you consider how long everything took back then - traveling, washing clothes, taking a dump - how and when could he practice and compose? Incredible.

hls2000 said:

Genesia said:

Yes, Beethoven composed opera. Two, in fact - Fidelio and Leonore.

Oh yes, that. That's one opera - "Fidelio." I think Leonore pretends to be "Fidelio." Have you heard any of it? It's well, ... as I said, Beethoven did not compose quintessential works in every genre. Mozart's Entfuhrung aus dem Serail and Magic Flute are pinnacle works. Even people who hate operas, people who hate Verdi and Puccini, love Mozart operas. Was being nice to langbleu and other Beethoven fans (I'm one too!) by saying it's a matter of taste, but really there's no debate that Mozart overshadows him, I think even Beethoven said that. I know people need to back up stuff to infinity around here w/ citations and other proof, but this is widely accepted. There's a reason why, when people want to pay an exaggerated compliment to a musician, people say "s/he's the Mozart of our time." There's none like him. Especially when you consider how long everything took back then - traveling, washing clothes, taking a dump - how and when could he practice and compose? Incredible.

I think you're reading way too much into what langebleu wrote. He simply said Beethoven didn't confine himself to one genre. Which is true.

Love Prince but no. This is almost as stupid as someone saying that Kanye West is equivalent to Prince.

Genesia said:

hls2000 said:

Oh yes, that. That's one opera - "Fidelio." I think Leonore pretends to be "Fidelio." Have you heard any of it? It's well, ... as I said, Beethoven did not compose quintessential works in every genre. Mozart's Entfuhrung aus dem Serail and Magic Flute are pinnacle works. Even people who hate operas, people who hate Verdi and Puccini, love Mozart operas. Was being nice to langbleu and other Beethoven fans (I'm one too!) by saying it's a matter of taste, but really there's no debate that Mozart overshadows him, I think even Beethoven said that. I know people need to back up stuff to infinity around here w/ citations and other proof, but this is widely accepted. There's a reason why, when people want to pay an exaggerated compliment to a musician, people say "s/he's the Mozart of our time." There's none like him. Especially when you consider how long everything took back then - traveling, washing clothes, taking a dump - how and when could he practice and compose? Incredible.

I think you're reading way too much into what langebleu wrote. He simply said Beethoven didn't confine himself to one genre. Which is true.

OK, I know. I think we agree in our answer to the thread OP, that's the important thing.

But langbleu quotes me and says I'm wrong b/c Beethoven composed "symphonic music..." when I actually wrote:

"He [Mozart] composed what is considered pinnacle works in symphonic music..." and then I cited Rachmaninoff and Beethoven as examples of those who have not done that. There's a reason why his ONE and only opera "Leonore" is not on the repetoire anymore.

hls2000 said:

Genesia said:

I think you're reading way too much into what langebleu wrote. He simply said Beethoven didn't confine himself to one genre. Which is true.

OK, I know. I think we agree in our answer to the thread OP, that's the important thing.

But langbleu quotes me and says I'm wrong b/c Beethoven composed "symphonic music..." when I actually wrote:

"He [Mozart] composed what is considered pinnacle works in symphonic music..." and then I cited Rachmaninoff and Beethoven as examples of those who have not done that. There's a reason why his ONE and only opera "Leonore" is not on the repetoire anymore.

Beethoven didn't write only one opera. He wrote two, as I indicated above.

You're so busy trying to be the smartest kid in class (bludgeoning everyone with your "knowledge") that you put others down while not even getting the basics right. You need to simmer down, junior.

this thread proves that we fans are the most musically sophiscated

tavis would love it!

shiiit theres a debate about classical music happening here

im just nodding my head trying to look clever!!

[Edited 10/4/11 13:04pm]

Genesia said:

hls2000 said:

OK, I know. I think we agree in our answer to the thread OP, that's the important thing.

But langbleu quotes me and says I'm wrong b/c Beethoven composed "symphonic music..." when I actually wrote:

"He [Mozart] composed what is considered pinnacle works in symphonic music..." and then I cited Rachmaninoff and Beethoven as examples of those who have not done that. There's a reason why his ONE and only opera "Leonore" is not on the repetoire anymore.

Beethoven didn't write only one opera. He wrote two, as I indicated above.

You're so busy trying to be the smartest kid in class (bludgeoning everyone with your "knowledge") that you put others down while not even getting the basics right. You need to simmer down, junior.

OMG, what's your problem? I was being civil. Where am I putting anyone down? I'm pointing out to langbleu that I didn't NOT say Beethoven didn't compose across genres, but my quote is he did not compose representative works in all, as Mozart did.

And Beethoven wrote ONE opera. Doesn't anybody have access to google or a library around here?? Geez, talk about being blindsided...

kenkamken said:

Would that make Michael Jackson Salieri? MJ ensconced within music royalty, the establishment that is shaken by this rude and crude upstart gifted with a musical genius that seems to flow freely from his being? I can begin to see the comparison, on a whole other scale of course, but interesting.

No, Jackson is Mozart and Prince is Salirei. MJ started as a child and was a very prodigy child. Prince cames at same time and is fabulous too. The misfortune is that Prince is just being contemporary to Jackson, the same as Mozart and Salieri. The first overshadowed the second.

I can see how the confusion has arisen, hls2000.

I was simply saying that I thought Beethoven's range meant he wasn't a good example. But I'm not disputing that Mozart was a grandmaster of so many of those 'formats' - I think Rachmaninov is a better example.

Anyway, I think from your comments that we're both (as well as others) violently in agreement that Mozart is streets ahead of Prince in many respects

Of course, the epithet - a modern-day 'Mozart' is simply saying the same sort of thing for many people - Prince is streets ahead of many other of today's musical artists in so many areas.

Sadly, it's very difficult to know what sort of buzz it must have been to have attended a Mozart performance. Thankfully, we have so much of his work still available to enjoy.

In the same way, we have to be thankful that we are living during a time when we have the opportunity to see and hear (regardless of what our personal preferences might be about recording output, setlists etc) a hugely gifted musician and performer in Prince.

(BTW I've always understoof that Fidelio is Beethoven's only opera and Leonore. a character, in the opera is the name of several overtures he wrote when he was working on the opera.)

Creussonino said:

No. Mozart is in a league of his own. Although in today's world (at least pop music/RB) Prince is in his own league.

LOVEVOL said:

MOZART LIVED FOR 36 YEARS !!! HIS NAME WAS NOT AMADEUS BUT AN ADD ON HE MADE EQUALIANT TO THE S AFTER ROGER. MOZART WAS OFFERED WORK AT VERSAILLE BUT HIS FATHER MADE HIM TURN IT DOWN HIS UPBRINGING WAS EQUALIANT TO MJ & HIS DAD. HAYDN WAS ONE OF MOZARTS DEAREST FRIENDS & BECAME THE MENTOR FOR BETHOVEN AFTER MOZARTS DEATH. SALIERI WAS MOZARTS MAIN RIVAL, HE WROTE ABOUT 40 OPERAS. MOZARTS FIRSTBORN CHILD DIES AFTER A FEW WEEKS, BUT HE OS SURVIVED BY TWO SONS. MOZART WAS A CHILDSTAR EQUALIANT TO MJ. MOZART WAS EXCEPTIONAL GOOD AT PLAYING AN INSTRUMENT EQUALIANT TO PRINCE.

Ay?

hls2000 said:

langebleu said:

Beethoven's not a good example: he, like Mozart, composed "symphonic music, trios, quartets, quintets, concertos, chamber music, piano music, opera, choral and more".

Beethoven composed opera?? I think no, but if I'm wrong, please point out.

Anyway, I don't think he composed quintessential works in all those genres, though maybe I left out choral (9th Symphony, Ode to Joy). Also, Beethoven had more years on him, and he was definitely in Mozart's shadow. But ultimately, it's a matter of taste, and I'm glad you hold Beethoven in esteem.

He wrote two.

And, yes, the end of Symphony 9 has singing in it.

But, Beethoven was NOT in Mozat's shaddow

Mozart's music took a couple of generations after he died to fully be realized for what it was.

Beethoven was celebrated throughout his life.

Before Beethoven, composers were seen as 'hired work". Beethoven, however, demanded to be seated with high-society insisting that what he did was something far beyond being trade and skill, but more along the lines of art that would outlast him. He made the composer a true 'rock star' of his time.

Also, his compositions were daring and radical, going far beyond Mozart's more tradiitonal compositions in mood and emotion. (most of the time).

I read in a book somewhere that Beethoven is beleived to have been the best piano improvisationist(sp?) of his time too, possibly better than Mozart.

That being said, Mozart was more gifted.

I think of Mozart as Prince, releasing 3121. I think of Bethoven as NIN releasing The Downward Spiral. I love both, but Downward Spiral is more interesting to me despite not being technically as gifted.

Genesia said:

hls2000 said:

OK, I know. I think we agree in our answer to the thread OP, that's the important thing.

But langbleu quotes me and says I'm wrong b/c Beethoven composed "symphonic music..." when I actually wrote:

"He [Mozart] composed what is considered pinnacle works in symphonic music..." and then I cited Rachmaninoff and Beethoven as examples of those who have not done that. There's a reason why his ONE and only opera "Leonore" is not on the repetoire anymore.

Beethoven didn't write only one opera. He wrote two, as I indicated above.

You're so busy trying to be the smartest kid in class (bludgeoning everyone with your "knowledge") that you put others down while not even getting the basics right. You need to simmer down, junior.

oops. Maybe I should read threads instead of skimming them.