Some final words from me on this issue. I know no one did any finger pointing, but I was trying to understand why Riverman wrote the things he wrote. Some of the things he said I agree with. That's all.

2elijah said:

The Spanish term "criollo" originally stood for a Spaniard born in the American continent. This term was part of the caste system which basically was a social structure based on race. At the very top of society were "peninsulares" which were European-born Spaniards, the second most powerful group were the "criollos" and then at the bottom of society were Indians and Africans along with various "mixtures" such as mestizo, mulatto, etc. It was basically a way to keep the "inferior" races from rising up against the Spanish Empire because the Spaniards knew that in some regions, such as Mexico and Peru, they were the minority.

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[Edited 10/8/11 11:44am]

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[Edited 10/8/11 11:47am]

2elijah said:

babynoz said:

You would be appalled at some of the wild, off the wall speculation and silliness folks post on this topic, but Prince looks exactly like what he is...a black Louisiana Creole.

(Bolded part) That's a very good observation Babynoz. Never looked at it that way. I know very little about the Louisiana Creoles. Many of them vary in complexion and don't they speak some sort of 'pidgin' or 'patois' dialect? I know in the Caribbean they do.

There is a French Creole aka French West Indian community living in the Virgin Islands for years. They consider themselves no different from the Black Caribbeans culturewise, and practice the same customs (West Indian), i.e. eat the same type foods, music, speak similar West Indian dialects, etc. Many have intermarried with other Caribbean ethnic groups, and are descendants of French Europeans that lived on the island years ago. They have the same "West Indian" accents like the rest of native-born Virgin Islanders, no difference. I was visiting family in the USVI, last April and saw the French Creoles or French West Indians/Caribbeans having a celebration of their ethnicity in the islands, during a festival that they have every year, that my brother explained to me. My brother (and 2 of my other brothers and 1 sister) was born in the USVI, but me and my 3 sisters and youngest brother were born stateside. The French Creoles of European descent also participate in the annual Caribbean carnival with all the islanders every year.

[Edited 10/7/11 20:11pm]

I did a presentation for BHM a few years ago focusing the Gens de couleur of Haiti and their emigration to Louisiana. It's a fascinating story and culture. There was a very strict caste system between the ones who resemble Prince and the darker skinned population. I suspect that there were similar communities throughout the Caribbean although a caste system wasn't strictly enforced in every instance.

I had a good friend who was a blonde haired, blue eyed Jamaican and he used to tell me stories similar to yours about his family members.

babynoz said:

2elijah said:

(Bolded part) That's a very good observation Babynoz. Never looked at it that way. I know very little about the Louisiana Creoles. Many of them vary in complexion and don't they speak some sort of 'pidgin' or 'patois' dialect? I know in the Caribbean they do.

There is a French Creole aka French West Indian community living in the Virgin Islands for years. They consider themselves no different from the Black Caribbeans culturewise, and practice the same customs (West Indian), i.e. eat the same type foods, music, speak similar West Indian dialects, etc. Many have intermarried with other Caribbean ethnic groups, and are descendants of French Europeans that lived on the island years ago. They have the same "West Indian" accents like the rest of native-born Virgin Islanders, no difference. I was visiting family in the USVI, last April and saw the French Creoles or French West Indians/Caribbeans having a celebration of their ethnicity in the islands, during a festival that they have every year, that my brother explained to me. My brother (and 2 of my other brothers and 1 sister) was born in the USVI, but me and my 3 sisters and youngest brother were born stateside. The French Creoles of European descent also participate in the annual Caribbean carnival with all the islanders every year.

[Edited 10/7/11 20:11pm]

I did a presentation for BHM a few years ago focusing the Gens de couleur of Haiti and their emigration to Louisiana. It's a fascinating story and culture. There was a very strict caste system between the ones who resemble Prince and the darker skinned population. I suspect that there were similar communities throughout the Caribbean although a caste system wasn't strictly enforced in every instance.

I had a good friend who was a blonde haired, blue eyed Jamaican and he used to tell me stories similar to yours about his family members.

Very interesting Babynoz. I remember reading about the caste system based on complexion in New Orleans years ago. It was sort of like an apartheid system. As far as Caribbeans, yes they have various looks, from those who look like Prince's complexion to very, dark-skinned ones, not much different really from that happening within American-born Blacks cultures;it's just a difference in culture/language(dialects) between both groups, but they share a historical past. I remember George Lopez would ask all his guests to do a DNA test, and he would give their results on the air. It's surprising he didn't ask Prince to do it, when he appeared on his show.

I first wondered about Louisianan Creoles when I saw that movie 'Eve's Bayou' and they were speaking 'patois', and mentioned the voodoo religion practice. I know a lot of Haitians practice that, but not all, and they speak a 'patois' type french dialect.

Then I remembered about the Haitians that immigrated to New Orleans years ago, and brought that culture to New Orleans. I always took a liking to New Orleans music because to me it has sort of Caribbean flavor to it. I used to wonder why I liked the vibe of New Orleans music so much and their spicy dishes, and it's more than likely because it reminds me of Caribbean music and the food. There's definitely some Caribbean history in New Orleans that is often overlooked. In the Virgin Islands there is a broken English dialect spoken among the residents.

Most of the native-born Virgin Island old-timers are gone from my parents generation or are at elderly age, now and the whole culture has changed, because there was more of a Hispanic influence during the time my parents/grandparents lived there, because of the many Puerto Ricans that used to live in the USVI, and their culture entertwined with the West Indian culture. Puerto Rico is just next door to the USVI, so it's no surprise the cultures are somewhat similar and both the USVI and Puerto Rico celebrate the same holidays and eat many of the same, type foods. Many people are not aware of that.

There are still many Puerto Ricans living in the USVI too, and now I've noticed that many Jamaicans and islanders from various islands are living there now, as well as Asians. So the culture has changed somewhat, since the mid 80s, even the type of music that is played there. There is more of a reggae feel, moreso than Calypso/Soca/Salsa that was the dominating music there, although that music can still be heard there by many of the islanders.

It's good to know one's family history. My brother used to joke about hoping he's not dating one of his cousins, because many people on Caribbean islands are related to one another, especially on the smaller islands, and they travel and live between islands all the time. My brother used to ask girls he dated what was their last name, to be sure he wasn't dating a cousin.

[Edited 10/8/11 13:20pm]

bobbyperu said:

Some final words from me on this issue. I know no one did any finger pointing, but I was trying to understand why Riverman wrote the things he wrote. Some of the things he said I agree with. That's all.

I think I explained pretty good that it came out of no where, those were personal issues that had nothing to do with this post. You can org note him on the side but that's the end of it in the post/discussion.

2elijah said:

I first wondered about Louisianan Creoles when I saw that movie 'Eve's Bayou' and they were speaking 'patois', and mentioned the voodoo religion practice. I know a lot of Haitians practice that, but not all, and they speak a 'patois' type french dialect.

[Edited 10/8/11 13:20pm]

concerning this part. my father's father was one of those louisiana creoles you mention. not sure if it adds much to the convo but he was born and raised in new orleans in 1910-ish and was for all the world a catholic frenchmen. french was his first language and he a similar story to you average immigrant when he moved, in his 50's after his parents died, to oklahoma and began a family. he was a policeman and ran into racism in okla. and was "classified" as a black person which greatly insulted him. after that he kept very much to himself and worked on his english. he always counted and cursed in french. and whenever he was stuck on the sunday crossword or filling out police reports he would speak, half whispered to himself, in french. having read a bit about the creoles in louisiana as i got older and look back, he seemed very much a lonely imigrant having to give up his 'first ulture' and assimilate. so much of his behavoir seems typical and sad.

my 2cents

wavesofbliss said:

2elijah said:

I first wondered about Louisianan Creoles when I saw that movie 'Eve's Bayou' and they were speaking 'patois', and mentioned the voodoo religion practice. I know a lot of Haitians practice that, but not all, and they speak a 'patois' type french dialect.

[Edited 10/8/11 13:20pm]

concerning this part. my father's father was one of those louisiana creoles you mention. not sure if it adds much to the convo but he was born and raised in new orleans in 1910-ish and was for all the world a catholic frenchmen. french was his first language and he a similar story to you average immigrant when he moved, in his 50's after his parents died, to oklahoma and began a family. he was a policeman and ran into racism in okla. and was "classified" as a black person which greatly insulted him. after that he kept very much to himself and worked on his english. he always counted and cursed in french. and whenever he was stuck on the sunday crossword or filling out police reports he would speak, half whispered to himself, in french. having read a bit about the creoles in louisiana as i got older and look back, he seemed very much a lonely imigrant having to give up his 'first ulture' and assimilate. so much of his behavoir seems typical and sad.

my 2cents

Interesting, but many immigrants' original culture, becomes secondary when they move to another country. Years ago many would not speak their native tongue when immigrating to America, but I find in present day, the new immigrants hold on to their native language and English becomes secondary. It's a different time and different day, and often times many people who are not educated about specific cultures/ethnic groups of new immigrants, use ignorant assumptions of them as their 'cultural education' and tend to disrespect or not acknowledge the cultures/ethniciites of others, different from their own, and view it with less value than their own, forgetting that many of their own ancestors were immigrants too who came to this country with their 'native' tongue. Sad but true.

As far as your father's father, he should not have felt insulted or shamed for being classified as 'black' even if he had 'Creole' ethnicity, because people often judge others by first glance, and with so many ethnicities today in America, moreso than in the past, sometimes you can't tell the race/ethnicity of many people today. I've been guilty of that myself, mistaking someone from a specific racial/ethnic group to be of another. Over the years, I constantly hear people call anyone or assume that anyone with a West Indian accent is a "Jamaican", not realizing there's various Caribbean ethnic groups, other than Jamaicans, with different accents and dialects.

The thing is, no matter how people judge you, they can't take away who you are internally, your culture/ethnicity/traditions, unless you allow them too. As a Black American of Caribbean heritage, over the years, I've had people ask me if I'm Bejan, Jamaican and even Panamanian, because of my high cheek bones and almond-shaped eyes. Many people often have this perception that those are West Indian facial characteristics, but I guess some weren't really too far from guessing that I have Caribbean heritage, when they asked me that, so I can't get mad at them for that, but I just find that sometimes one can be mistaken for another ethnic group often.

[Edited 10/8/11 21:39pm]

rudeboy4711 said:

2elijah said:

Honestly I don' know much about Cajun/Creole history, but the little I know and still question, especially about Black Louisiana Creoles, in particular, is that their Creole ancestry is tied in with Haiti and other parts of the Caribbean. Remember many Haitians immigrated from Haiti to New Orlean/Louisiana years ago and settled there, and took their culture with them. There is a history of 'Creole' culture all over the Caribbean as well, which is why I feel some of that Caribbean history of the Black Creoles in Louisiana is often overlooked as being connected to the Caribbean. If you compare the spicy foods to the Caribbean vs Cajun food, it's pretty much along the same lines.

Anyway didn't the term "Criollo" originate with the Spanish/Spaniards, when they occupied plantations in South America, and when they took possession of New Orleans, and the term was changed to "Creole" because that's how the French termed it? From what I know, the term has been used to identify various 'Creole' groups in the Caribbean, Spain, New Orleans, etc. from persons of mixed parentage (biracial;parents from different racial groups), to those with African, French and Spanish ancestry and in some places, for some with a mixture of Spanish/Portuguese/French ancestry, to defining the various lingo spoken within each group, and food? Seems everyone has a different definition/version of its use.

[Edited 10/7/11 11:32am]

The Spanish term "criollo" originally stood for a Spaniard born in the American continent. This term was part of the caste system which basically was a social structure based on race. At the very top of society were "peninsulares" which were European-born Spaniards, the second most powerful group were the "criollos" and then at the bottom of society were Indians and Africans along with various "mixtures" such as mestizo, mulatto, etc. It was basically a way to keep the "inferior" races from rising up against the Spanish Empire because the Spaniards knew that in some regions, such as Mexico and Peru, they were the minority.

Thanks, I read about that yesterday. The Caste system was apparently no different and similar to an apartheid system used to divide and brainwash people by racial group/ethnicity/economic class, religion, etc., and to convince and brainwash them, that some were 'inferior' to others, based on someone else's insecurities, fears, weakness and personal prejudices, and laws and boundaries created for specific groups, to keep control over them by limiting their freedom as human beings as well.

We should keep in mind though, that no 'inferior or superior' race/ethnic groups ever existed in this world, and still don't. That type of belief is a dangerous 'state-of-mind' system held by some within the human species, who have a need to feel above and beyond others.

This is why, as humans living in present day, it is important to embrace and educate ourselves about various cultures/ethnic groups within the human species, see them as 'equal' to all humans, and approach it with respect, open minds, and leave out personal prejudices, and ignorant and stereotypical assumptions about others, as well as, not dismissing their 'value' and 'inclusiveness' within the human species.

[Edited 10/8/11 22:22pm]

wavesofbliss said:

2elijah said:

I first wondered about Louisianan Creoles when I saw that movie 'Eve's Bayou' and they were speaking 'patois', and mentioned the voodoo religion practice. I know a lot of Haitians practice that, but not all, and they speak a 'patois' type french dialect.

[Edited 10/8/11 13:20pm]

concerning this part. my father's father was one of those louisiana creoles you mention. not sure if it adds much to the convo but he was born and raised in new orleans in 1910-ish and was for all the world a catholic frenchmen. french was his first language and he a similar story to you average immigrant when he moved, in his 50's after his parents died, to oklahoma and began a family. he was a policeman and ran into racism in okla. and was "classified" as a black person which greatly insulted him. after that he kept very much to himself and worked on his english. he always counted and cursed in french. and whenever he was stuck on the sunday crossword or filling out police reports he would speak, half whispered to himself, in french. having read a bit about the creoles in louisiana as i got older and look back, he seemed very much a lonely imigrant having to give up his 'first ulture' and assimilate. so much of his behavoir seems typical and sad.

my 2cents

Wow...fascinating! Thanks for your input.

How has your family's position and attitude changed since then if you don't mind my asking?

babynoz said:

wavesofbliss said:

concerning this part. my father's father was one of those louisiana creoles you mention. not sure if it adds much to the convo but he was born and raised in new orleans in 1910-ish and was for all the world a catholic frenchmen. french was his first language and he a similar story to you average immigrant when he moved, in his 50's after his parents died, to oklahoma and began a family. he was a policeman and ran into racism in okla. and was "classified" as a black person which greatly insulted him. after that he kept very much to himself and worked on his english. he always counted and cursed in french. and whenever he was stuck on the sunday crossword or filling out police reports he would speak, half whispered to himself, in french. having read a bit about the creoles in louisiana as i got older and look back, he seemed very much a lonely imigrant having to give up his 'first ulture' and assimilate. so much of his behavoir seems typical and sad.

my 2cents

Wow...fascinating! Thanks for your input.

How has your family's position and attitude changed since then if you don't mind my asking?

its weird. he married my grandmother who was from texas, had the same(paper bag)reflection but lived, worked and classified themselves as blacks in oklahoma. i think part of the wierdness for him was that he and the wife looked like so many native americans, including my maternal grandmother, also from texas, also a brown bag complexion, but half cheorkee indian half german.

growing up in oklahoma in the seventies and being regostered with the cherokee tribe, it never occured to me that i was black or shoul have thought of myself in that way. there were some many people around who had my complexion and werent' black or mixe. i am the middle of five kids. none of us " look black" but 3 of my sibs consider live as black. 3 of them have had children with blacks to my amuzement since ther kids are look different.

from my own experience all the comments about thinking you know just by looking are nonsense. three of my grandparents had very similar complexions but one had no african blood, one had about a third and the other was an eighth. mind you my my maternal graddad had irish realitive who looked just like the all american blend as well.(think colin farrell) he himself couldnt have been fairer completed and had blue eyes and red hair.

wavesofbliss said:

babynoz said:

Wow...fascinating! Thanks for your input.

How has your family's position and attitude changed since then if you don't mind my asking?

its weird. he married my grandmother who was from texas, had the same(paper bag)reflection but lived, worked and classified themselves as blacks in oklahoma. i think part of the wierdness for him was that he and the wife looked like so many native americans, including my maternal grandmother, also from texas, also a brown bag complexion, but half cheorkee indian half german.

growing up in oklahoma in the seventies and being regostered with the cherokee tribe, it never occured to me that i was black or shoul have thought of myself in that way. there were some many people around who had my complexion and werent' black or mixe. i am the middle of five kids. none of us " look black" but 3 of my sibs consider live as black. 3 of them have had children with blacks to my amuzement since ther kids are look different.

from my own experience all the comments about thinking you know just by looking are nonsense. three of my grandparents had very similar complexions but one had no african blood, one had about a third and the other was an eighth. mind you my my maternal graddad had irish realitive who looked just like the all american blend as well.(think colin farrell) he himself couldnt have been fairer completed and had blue eyes and red hair.

Great story, thanks for sharing.