How do you view/judge Prince albums or songs

Are you more Objective or Subjective or both?

Are there certain eras where you are moved more by facts and other by feelings

OBJECTIVITY & SUBJECTIVITY
The difference between these two important ideas is the difference between fact and opinion. Facts are objective and provably true; however, if no clear facts exist about a topic, then a series of balanced opinions needs to be produced to allow the reader to make up his or her mind; opinions are subjective ideas held by individuals and so are always biased. If unbalanced opinions are presented as if they are facts, they act as propaganda or persuasion, e.g. a newspaper headline might state: "Youngsters are the prime cause of trouble in this area". This is presented as an objective fact but is clearly a subjective opinion.

An objective piece of information, therefore, needs either to be the whole truth and at least be unbiased or balanced, whereas a subjective point of view is biased because it is either not the complete picture or it is merely a viewpoint or expression of feelings.

When studying literature, it is best to be objective when you consider a text's qualities. Of course, literature read for pleasure should be approached subjectively as this allows you to 'be there' with the characters, feeling involved with the plot and so forth. But when you discuss literature for an essay, it is far safer to 'stand back' and see it objectively for what it is: no more than an attempt to engage and hold your attention, build trust in its writer, and persuade you to a way of thinking - the writer's way!

Looked at objectively, a text is no more than a 'vehicle' for communicating a persuasive message. This applies to characters and settings, too - all highly compelling and believable 'vehicles' for the writer to convince you to think his or her way!

http://www.englishbiz.co....tivity.htm

I'd have to say that I'm both objective and subjective.

As a musician, I have to be both. Listening to music is both.

~G

Giovanni777 said:

I'd have to say that I'm both objective and subjective.

As a musician, I have to be both. Listening to music is both.

~G

I find myself 'studiously' reading the posts of those who are musicians, because you guys a lot of times are coming from a 'technical' standpoint and that tends be very factual most of the time.

I walk away listening to his music different. Especially when there is a particular song discussed. And I can re-listen to it for certain things.

OldFriends4Sale said:

How do you view/judge Prince albums or songs

Are you more Objective or Subjective or both?

Are there certain eras where you are moved more by facts and other by feelings

I'm not really sure how you can be an objective fan? They seem contradictory by nature.

Someone might be objective about Prince as a person, but subjective in how they feel about his music.

They could potentially be objective about his music (albeit a clinical response to something that is art and thus, ultimately subjective), but subjective in how they feel about him as a person - I imagine they are in a tiny minority though.

But if someone was completely objective about Prince, why would they be here, except maybe for research? Surely they couldn't be classified as a "fan" if their interest was solely in processing facts and figures for analysis and review.

I think most of us are fundamentally subjective about both Prince and his music - what we like, what we don't like, etc... - regardless of how much or how little technical and factual knowledge we have about him and his music. You can discuss facts about what he's playing, how he's playing, what equipment he's using, etc... but eventually, your feelings are going to govern whether you like the music (and the man) or you don't.

What would be an example of being moved more by facts than by feelings within a particular era?

You say that facts are objective and "probably true", which pretty much sums up the way they are often used around here.

If a fact isn't true it isn't a fact. If something is presented as a fact and is proven to be wrong, it instantly becomes no longer a fact (well, technically it never was...)

It's pretty common for people to put across their opinion as if it's a fact - you can argue with them or just not worry about it, but it's a difficult thing to change. Some genuinely won't even see it when you point it out.

Even now, I probably need to preface everything in my post with IMO but I think it's reasonable that such a disclaimer is the default setting for any post on a fansite discussion forum

Mmm... I don't know if I understand well the question.

In music, like in all arts, I think that, at the end of the day, one is subjective. If one has an informed opinion, after listening to music a lot, reading essays, etc., then it's better, of course. But it is an opinion after all.

Regarding Prince's music, I'll give an example. I'm not a great fan of "rock" music, although there are rock bands that I do like a lot. So I don't particularly like Prince songs such as America, Electric Chair, Endorphinemachine, Guitar, Dreamer, etc. A fan of this style can try to convince me, even a musician can show me the originality of some chord progression... I won't be a fan of these songs even so. It doesn't appeal to my sensitivity.

Other example. I love Diamonds And Pearls (the album). I really think that there are brilliant tunes there. But the fact is that this album is very special for me, I enjoyed it in a very special moment of my life. Can one separate one thing from another? Would I still place this album among my 5 Prince faves if it didn't mean so much to me?

I think more about the music than the person.

I've read various members comparisons of albums and it seems an example of the Rainbow Children being disliked and dismissed from emotional or subjective reason than technical or factual reason.

Let me add Prince Music fan lol

OldFriends4Sale said:

I think more about the music than the person.

I've read various members comparisons of albums and it seems an example of the Rainbow Children being disliked and dismissed from emotional or subjective reason than technical or factual reason.

Let me add Prince Music fan lol

Ok, sure.

So what would be an example of an objective fan's take on The Rainbow Children?

Chiquetet said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I think more about the music than the person.

I've read various members comparisons of albums and it seems an example of the Rainbow Children being disliked and dismissed from emotional or subjective reason than technical or factual reason.

Let me add Prince Music fan lol

Ok, sure.

So what would be an example of an objective fan's take on The Rainbow Children?

I can't explain it they way they did

But they talked more from the execution of the music the flow the instrumentations and voices/melodies and put aside their opinions about the 'subject' matter weither or not racism anti-semetic or whatever is involved. And judged the album that way.

Where as there were others who totally judged it from the message or presumed message.

I originally did not buy it from the 'negative' opinions I read about it, then decided to hear it for myself and I tend to listen to the music 1st and how songs are sung 2nd what actually being said 3rd. Which is why I love jazz and music that has not much or no singing.

It's impossible to objective. Your contextual experiences will always influence you to some extent.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Chiquetet said:

Ok, sure.

So what would be an example of an objective fan's take on The Rainbow Children?

I can't explain it they way they did

But they talked more from the execution of the music the flow the instrumentations and voices/melodies and put aside their opinions about the 'subject' matter weither or not racism anti-semetic or whatever is involved. And judged the album that way.

Where as there were others who totally judged it from the message or presumed message.

I originally did not buy it from the 'negative' opinions I read about it, then decided to hear it for myself and I tend to listen to the music 1st and how songs are sung 2nd what actually being said 3rd. Which is why I love jazz and music that has not much or no singing.

Fair enough. I would suggest that rather than that being subjectivity vs. objectivity, that it is about appreciating the music itself as divorced from the associated themes.

I was not involved with any Prince discussions online when I first bought TRC, so I had absolutely no idea what to expect. My first impression was that I loved the music. My second impression was that I loved the themes according to my interpretation of what was being presented (which is ultimately, all that music and art is - interpretation).

More recently, I have seen the discussions about TRC here and elsewhere and I've probably ended up listening to some songs more clinically and taking things more literally than I ever wished I had. In that case, I was happy enough being completely subjective, if you like, and enjoying the music and concepts as I chose to understand them. Now I find it a little harder to 'switch off'.

Jumping back to the early nineties, was the first Prince album I ever got into. I was young, I loved the music and I listened to it over and over until I wore out the tape. Last year I saw the "3 Chains Of Gold" video and realised some of the conceptual themes that were supposedly weaved into that album. It did nothing for me. I much preferred to just kick back and enjoy the tunes

Generally though, all other eras are mixed for me. In each one, there are some tracks that I love for the music alone, others for the themes and lyrical content, many for both and some I just don't get into at all.

But I'd take issue with someone telling me that they were being objective in stating that they liked or didn't like an album based on technical facts, no matter how knowledgable they were.

Like it or hate it, but if it's an opinion, it's subjective by definition

This is abit like the old chicken or egg question. Regarding P´s music I guess I am borderline subjective but in general I try to stay objective about it, otherwise I would only be blinkering myself. I would imagine that most serious Prince fans have a very broad taste in music but it would not surprise me, if a survey was carried out, that we would be as a collective into alot of the same bands and artists or at the very least quality music.

As for life, it is certainly better to be objective than subjective but even in writing that, am I not being subjective?

As for TRC, I personally think it is an outstanding album, very complex musically. It reminds me in a way of Radiohead´s "OK Computer" in that it is an album I rarely listen to cause it drains me mentally. As for the racist and anti-semetic themes, I am not sure I buy into any of that, the verse in which the Holocaust in mentioned, is taken out of context by those claiming Prince is being anti-semetic.

I'm subjective in the sense of enjoying a song for how it just reaches out to me emotionally.

I however also am objective to his music as a student of his art. One has to be able to see it in a distance to understand different aspects of his music.

A 100% subjective fan would say that all his melodies and skills come from heaven above, while overly objective fans do nothing more than discussing his technique, how normal or original his chords are, how the sheet music is different or similar to other music, and also just see Prince as a "vampire" stealing everything from others.

Connecting what you learn as a subjective fan and an objective fan together will probably give you a greater picture of who he is, cause it's not possible to be 100% objective to art imo. It's not just one plus one equals two. It's far more complicated. I can objectivly explain his use of syncopated rhythms, but subjectivly explain how it makes me feel. Though I can objectivly explain why it makes me feel the way I feel when I explain how the timing resembles sexual whipping in a way that is understood by people with similar cultural background and art language.

Like most I consider myself more subjective in some areas and more objective in others regarding Prince's music.

As far as this forum goes, I definitely prefer the conversations around more subjective topics even if the conversation is fairly subjective...

Interesting question.

Like most people are saying, I think there's both subjectivity and objectivity when appreciating music or any art, sometimes overlapping and sometimes separate. For example, I can appreciate the structure, difficulty, originality, technique, execution, etc. of a song (I don't play any pop/rock but I play a string, wind and piano, so I understand some of these "objective" things), and I can appreciate an "objective" explanation of why a song is groundbreaking and I'll make sure to listen to it and note all those things -- but then still not like the song. On the other hand, you can show me how "bad" it is, it's formulaic, simplistic, etc. but I still like it for some "associated" reason (as another poster called it) - because that's the song playing when something significant happened in my life, for example, or it evokes a lifestyle or attitude that I desire. Another example, I just heard "The Holy River" tonight and it made me tear up, had to listen to it 3 times in a row, just because it hit me like a ton of bricks, it touched something personal for me - so I don't know yet if it's objectively a good song, I haven't analyzed it, but I know I want to listen to it.

The best is when you can like a song "objectively" AND "subjectively" - songs that you never get tired of, because there's more and more to appreciate about it, and it also becomes/is personal to you as well.

i've found that some songs strike a chord with me some-time (depending on my mood) while at other times the same song will not have the same effect. And I don't believe its llimited to the lyrics; in some instances the musical notes will inspire certain factual feelings and at other times not so much. so I guess my answer is that objectivity and subjectivity is fluid.

Prince being a musician with albums almost every year from 1978 until now, I feel is Objective.

It is objective to state facts such as...

~Prince is regarded as a wonderful guitar player and song writer by the World.

~Prince has his own recording studio.

~Prince has been known to be a mentor in the "Business," of music's distribution.

~Prince is in the "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame"

Hall of Fame! That is a Fact. Prince is Famous for his work.

Subjectively some people don't prefer Prince music to their favorite artists.

My love for Prince music is Subjective at first...Loving Prince albums every year is subjective...

Loving each song is subjective...Not being crazy about every lyric is subjective...Loving Prince as a poet is subjective...

My experience being a Prince Music Fan seems to be a subjective emotion that fits perfectly into an Objective outlook from the World Community.

I think I am an Objective Prince fan because I Object to bad prince music.

I am not Subjective because I will not Subject myself to bad prince music.

Subjectively I decide if I like a song or not. The music can be great but if they lyrics rub me wrong or the drum beat is clunky (eg lotusflower) I simply cannot Subject myself to listening anymore because Objectively, its just plain bad. I can make an objective statement because I have listened to everything prince has done as well as great music by other musicians (I said great music, not top 40 pop crap) and can therefore objectively compare prince great music or the great music of others and say whether prince objectively has produced on that "great" level or not.

Objectively its easy to say "satisfied" or "on the couch" is a retread of "damn u" or "insatiable" and that those songs are retreads of "scandelous" or "do me baby". Objectively its easy to say that the entire 1999 record was based upon a 3 chord blues structure. Objectively it's easy to say that prince ruins his music everytime he or anyone raps, because his rap skills do not touch his singing skills.

Subjectively I don't care for "satisfied" because its a retread even tho I might like it better if I had never heard his previous attempts at that style. Subjectively I love 1999 even tho technically, there is not that much going on in the songwriting department. It just works.

Objectivity in my opinion is the result of being a qualified listener. Once you experience how great prince music has been, you can objectively state how bad it has become. Until you have the full experience of learning the difference between music and really great music, its all subjective.

My point is that Subjective can become Objective via context and experience.

I think you're using the wrong "-ive."

PERSPECTIVE is the key.

TrevorAyer said:

I think I am an Objective Prince fan because I Object to bad prince music.

I am not Subjective because I will not Subject myself to bad prince music.

Subjectively I decide if I like a song or not. The music can be great but if they lyrics rub me wrong or the drum beat is clunky (eg lotusflower) I simply cannot Subject myself to listening anymore because Objectively, its just plain bad. I can make an objective statement because I have listened to everything prince has done as well as great music by other musicians (I said great music, not top 40 pop crap) and can therefore objectively compare prince great music or the great music of others and say whether prince objectively has produced on that "great" level or not.

Objectively its easy to say "satisfied" or "on the couch" is a retread of "damn u" or "insatiable" and that those songs are retreads of "scandelous" or "do me baby". Objectively its easy to say that the entire 1999 record was based upon a 3 chord blues structure. Objectively it's easy to say that prince ruins his music everytime he or anyone raps, because his rap skills do not touch his singing skills.

Subjectively I don't care for "satisfied" because its a retread even tho I might like it better if I had never heard his previous attempts at that style. Subjectively I love 1999 even tho technically, there is not that much going on in the songwriting department. It just works.

Objectivity in my opinion is the result of being a qualified listener. Once you experience how great prince music has been, you can objectively state how bad it has become. Until you have the full experience of learning the difference between music and really great music, its all subjective.

My point is that Subjective can become Objective via context and experience.

Nothing can become entirely objective imo when it comes to something more complex than math. Art trigger emotions and questions etc, and therefore has to be seen in cultural, religious and different social context to see it the right way. People are also unique and respond differently to similar things. The objective view you are referring to is how objective you are able to be from your standpoint. Being objective is the ability to see the object more for what it actually is, than for you to use your relation to the object to define what it is. Everyone has some kind of relation to artists they know. And if they don't know the artist, the artist has some similarities to something you've seeen, known, experienced in the past. 100% objective is to say that a quadrate has 4 equal sides. Subjective is how this square formed thing makes you feel. Attempt at being objective is explaing why in a way that is to be understood in social/emotional/cultural blah blah context that most people is somewhat familiar with. However 100% accuracy is impossible. This is why even the most learned music knowers argue on what artist is the best through the years.

Imo it's possible to be objective in the sense of putting emotional relations to an object aside, and explaing the object on how it's put together, and how it appeals to other people in a social context that is known to the one who is explaing the object. However your background is still not the same as everyone else. That's why your job as a music critique is to make your objective view to seem as objective as possible to others too, being that you also actually need some psychological understanding of human differences. Still you're just attempting to be objective, but reaching 100% objectiveness is not possible.

namepeace said:

I think you're using the wrong "-ive."

PERSPECTIVE is the key.

good point

OldFriends4Sale said:

namepeace said:

I think you're using the wrong "-ive."

PERSPECTIVE is the key.

good point

I totally hear what you're saying, though.

namepeace said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

good point

I totally hear what you're saying, though.

I know people from all aspects and avenues who seem to be very subjective about most things and then others how are the opposite.

I know there are always other things that motivate us like others have mentioned 'emotional' place when you heard that song, or what not

I tend to be a very sensual person who responds quickly to color and appearance, I'll buy something based on color and how it just pulls me in.

But when it comes to people I can also be very factual. As in gathering facts before I feel and call someone a friend.

Oldfriends4sale, this is almost more like a philosophical discussion, then a discussion about Prince.. lol

Because you can say: all views are subjective, there are no objective ones when it comes to judging music. Someone who says Rhianna is better then Mozart isn't wrong in that context. They at least can sing along to the Rihanna tune....

Or, you have another group of people who say that there are objective levels when it comes to discussing the quality of music: In terms of complexity of the arrangements, the use of harmonies and notes etc... bla..bla... bla Mozart is far better then Rhianna.

And you also have people who judge music in relative terms: who am i to judge of that teenager loves the Rihanna tune better then the composition of Mozart? In her context the Rihanna tune probably appeals more to her personally.

And to make it even more complicated: these people with different views on music interact and communicate with eachother, and who is to say who is right or wrong, or better or worse, or more intelligent or more superficial when it comes to judging the impact the music of the music on an indiviudual: the one who is happy when he can bop his or head along on a Rihanna tune, or the one who thinks the music of Rihanna is simplistic commercial fodder, and not as intellectualy satisfying as the music of Mozart?

So, context and perspective are a complicating factor, even moreso when you realise that these are things that are changing over time. You arent always in the exact state of mind or mood. Looking at myself personally, i can think: hey 'Get off' by Prince has a great nasty, driving funk-groove at one time, and at other times i can think: why is he making a charicature of his legacy with these forced lyrics? And more often even i am thinking both things at the same time.

To cut it short: i think there can be no clear answers given here. When it comes to myself its probably a mixture of more 'objective' and 'subjective' views, but who am i to spoil anyones personal experience? People who tend to like songs like 'Mr Goodnight' and 'Big white mansion' probably have less with a song like 'Crystal Ball', I can personally get annoyed by the lack of strong compositions and urgency on material from MPLsound and 20ten, and others see it as 'yet another masterpice'.

... good thread, I just dig my man's music

LoL ...

Riverman37 said:

Oldfriends4sale, this is almost more like a philosophical discussion, then a discussion about Prince.. lol

Because you can say: all views are subjective, there are no objective ones when it comes to judging music. Someone who says Rhianna is better then Mozart isn't wrong in that context. They at least can sing along to the Rihanna tune....

Or, you have another group of people who say that there are objective levels when it comes to discussing the quality of music: In terms of complexity of the arrangements, the use of harmonies and notes etc... bla..bla... bla Mozart is far better then Rhianna.

And you also have people who judge music in relative terms: who am i to judge of that teenager loves the Rihanna tune better then the composition of Mozart? In her context the Rihanna tune probably appeals more to her personally.

And to make it even more complicated: these people with different views on music interact and communicate with eachother, and who is to say who is right or wrong, or better or worse, or more intelligent or more superficial when it comes to judging the impact the music of the music on an indiviudual: the one who is happy when he can bop his or head along on a Rihanna tune, or the one who thinks the music of Rihanna is simplistic commercial fodder, and not as intellectualy satisfying as the music of Mozart?

So, context and perspective are a complicating factor, even moreso when you realise that these are things that are changing over time. You arent always in the exact state of mind or mood. Looking at myself personally, i can think: hey 'Get off' by Prince has a great nasty, driving funk-groove at one time, and at other times i can think: why is he making a charicature of his legacy with these forced lyrics? And more often even i am thinking both things at the same time.

To cut it short: i think there can be no clear answers given here. When it comes to myself its probably a mixture of more 'objective' and 'subjective' views, but who am i to spoil anyones personal experience? People who tend to like songs like 'Mr Goodnight' and 'Big white mansion' probably have less with a song like 'Crystal Ball', I can personally get annoyed by the lack of strong compositions and urgency on material from MPLsound and 20ten, and others see it as 'yet another masterpice'.

^^ Yup. I think most people are saying basically this.

But you got me thinking - I can enjoy both Mozart and Rihanna...and Garth Brooks and Metallica and Wynton Marsalis, and opera, etc. etc. I think the ability to appreciate and be enthusiastic about music across different genres comes from music education (objective factors). Not necessarily being able to play, but having understanding of context (like history, purpose) and what's going on musically. (but I do know how to play, by the way).

Riverman37 said:

Oldfriends4sale, this is almost more like a philosophical discussion, then a discussion about Prince.. lol

Because you can say: all views are subjective, there are no objective ones when it comes to judging music. Someone who says Rhianna is better then Mozart isn't wrong in that context. They at least can sing along to the Rihanna tune....

Or, you have another group of people who say that there are objective levels when it comes to discussing the quality of music: In terms of complexity of the arrangements, the use of harmonies and notes etc... bla..bla... bla Mozart is far better then Rhianna.

And you also have people who judge music in relative terms: who am i to judge of that teenager loves the Rihanna tune better then the composition of Mozart? In her context the Rihanna tune probably appeals more to her personally.

And to make it even more complicated: these people with different views on music interact and communicate with eachother, and who is to say who is right or wrong, or better or worse, or more intelligent or more superficial when it comes to judging the impact the music of the music on an indiviudual: the one who is happy when he can bop his or head along on a Rihanna tune, or the one who thinks the music of Rihanna is simplistic commercial fodder, and not as intellectualy satisfying as the music of Mozart?

So, context and perspective are a complicating factor, even moreso when you realise that these are things that are changing over time. You arent always in the exact state of mind or mood. Looking at myself personally, i can think: hey 'Get off' by Prince has a great nasty, driving funk-groove at one time, and at other times i can think: why is he making a charicature of his legacy with these forced lyrics? And more often even i am thinking both things at the same time.

To cut it short: i think there can be no clear answers given here. When it comes to myself its probably a mixture of more 'objective' and 'subjective' views, but who am i to spoil anyones personal experience? People who tend to like songs like 'Mr Goodnight' and 'Big white mansion' probably have less with a song like 'Crystal Ball', I can personally get annoyed by the lack of strong compositions and urgency on material from MPLsound and 20ten, and others see it as 'yet another masterpice'.

very open point of view.

I think questioning myself on why I like or dislike a song or album or era keeps my mind stretching.

Of course I don't like everything Prince does, some clothing periods make me turn my head, but as far as the music I found at times I judged it based on a lot of other thing. Than the technique or the lyrical writing.

I love melody and some song of PRince's doesn't have good melody. And I just can't get into.
Pussy Control is like nails on a chalk board to me, weither it's about female empowerment or what i'm prejudiced toward that one lol and can't get that Ahhhhhhhhh Pussy Control ooohhh out of my head for hours

Being a "fan" is subjective - it's opinion, judgement, belief. Saying a song is great or sucks is belief that varies by the person. (even if the song is Jughead)

Objective is an observable fact that will be seen the same by others such as "Tony M raps" on some prince songs. "Tony M's raps suck" is subjective (although I think they suck)

People who proclaim that they do not adore all of Prince's output and are therefore superior to other fans are just as subjective as those who would package Prince's farts and call it music

This is all subjective of course.