Pardon me for this one hitting me like purple bricks (again, but it's not my fault), but in the movie Vickie, Cristina, Barcelona, written and directed Woody Allen, there's the subject matter of Javier Bardem's father, a poet of obvious great talent. He has several works of great poetry dealing with love etc. Bardem explains that he refuses to publish them. The theory about creating beautiful works and denying them to the public is discussed. Bardeem explained the fathers keeping his poetry to himself was "a way of getting back at them (the world) because after 1000s of years, they (people) have not learned to love." Hi ex-wife, Penelope Cruz, explains that the father is basically "witholding works from the public out of rage."

The reason this hit me with purple bricks is because it immediately remided me of the oft-asked question about why Prince released only specific gems, rather than some of the vault material that is of upper tier quality and really showed off his talents even more than what was already proven. We all know the songs that are mythic.

I remember reading in an interivew in the early 90's, RS maybe or Spin, where Prince disucssed a song that he had written the night before or so and he told the interviewer he was going to save that one because either the world was not ready for it or it would be on the upcoming The Dawn release, his mythic album of ethereal music of only primo goodness that has since never materialized.

Im wondering and ask what do you think is Princes reason again for keeping some of his best marterial, some we have no idea of, from the world. Now, and back then. In Vicky Christina Barcelona, the father kept his work private out of rage. Prince himself had an upbringing of family turnmoil, broken homes, estranged relationships, foster places and such. I remeber him stating in an interview that as a youth he would go to McDonalds and smell the food but would not be able to afford it. He stated that this made him angry. It's well rpeorted that he was put out of his house by his father and him at a phone booth crying asking if he could come home (shades of the end scene form The Rose!). His father told him "no, he couldn't" if he would not change etc. Cold Blooded (Rick) of a parent to do. I've heard of tough love but damn. Maybe this situation and others were antecedents of Princes behavior and thus, his reluctance to keep all the good stuff form the public. Because he is angry or whatever enough to not feel we deserve them. Ive always stated that we do not deserve the full complete Computer Blue because we wouldnt appreciate it anyways, yearning for the next song to dazzle us, while we fail to realize all the essence of work and out thered-ness of what we were hearing. yes, it had oti be cut down for the movie etc but Im talking about the general gist of things. Because technically he could have let us hear it via other means..b sides etc. I realize he was getting other material he was excited about out to us (DMSR A Pop Life speaks on him being excited about what he had recently created by June 1984) but then came the hoarding if you will. I would have just been satisfied about the haording, okay with the thought of the reocrd company editing and such to his output of songs if it were not for Princes comments regarding the Dawn etc.

So is it rage or what that keeps the great unheralded stuff in the vaults and to himself all these years. Tales from the purple decades show a sometimes troubled artist who's personality was obviously formed in his impresionable youth years. Would releasing some of this vaulted material of greatness bring solace? The movie never explained this or delved into it, but what about this? This isn't cards mutherfucker. This is (real) life.

.

[Edited 9/17/11 22:09pm]

damn i lost intrest in the 3rd line

but hell thats a long thing to read

i dunno

i guess

I remember reading in an interivew in the early 90's, RS maybe or Spin, where Prince disucssed a song that he had written the night before or so and he told the interviewer he was going to save that one because either the world was not ready for it or it would be on the upcoming The Dawn release, his mythic album of ethereal music of only primo goodness that has since never materialized.

unfortunatly for P we have heard all his best unreleased stuff

i think he just talked alot of shit

the last unreleased "gem" prince chose to bring back becouse the world wasnt ready for it was

RAVE UN2...........

i think he just says that for effect-i would be AMAZED if he had shit that betered or even equalled his unreleased and released 82-87 product

Prince is a person that may or may not be communicating personal messages through his lyrics. He hinted in interviews that the songs he shares are amalgams of what he has experienced himself (let's take b-side "Hello" as an example) and what others go through (songs like "Tomorrow").

What we can derive from his lyrics is speculation. And the stuff he says in interviews is often tainted by what kind of message he wants to convey to the audience at that particular time; often his interviews are marred by his wish to come across as mysterious and his commercial reasons for doing the interview.

If you put the stuff we know into the equation, it gets even muddier. What I read out of the history is that Prince went through a hectic youth and strived to become the best in everything he did. And he did it mostly on his own terms, creating a period of genius songwriting that I still cherish.

But in the meantime the world he carved out for himself seems to be a lonely one, a world where he always had to question what reasons people had to befriend him. And he seems to find answers to the questions through his religion.

The way he lived his life is that he always seemed to be in a special "Prince" place; a place/state of mind where he feels safe. The money he has earned over the years gave him means to do so and he created Paisley Park for real. To me, that was when his music turned into itself and became stale to me, except a few albums/songs.

The reason he has for sitting on that music is that it's his. I do not think we can expect Prince to understand the kind of love we have for his music as we pour our own emotions onto his music. And they are totally different than how he experiences his music. Let alone the ownership of that music, which is something that rates high on his agenda, as we know.

In short; we will never know until Prince gives an interview in which he discusses the subject. But then again, when I was a teenager, I wanted to hear Prince interviews and now I am forty, I've seen too many interviews of him I wish I did not have to see for one or the other reason.

I wish he'd stayed mysterious. Let his music speak. I am glad he and so many others find joy in his present day music, even if I do not; I've discovered other artists that touch me in the same way he did back in the day.

rdhull said:

Would releasing some of this vaulted material of greatness bring solace?

That's another interesting question, btw. I do not think I would want him to. He would edit Xtra Loveable for cuss words, would mix Wendy & Lisa off tracks, for whatever reasons.

I think a lot of his songs are personal and some of those we will never hear live. And I think that Prince will never allow another person in his vault to compile the kind of compilation his fans really want; it will always be marred by his present day religious stance or general mood.

^^ I like these 2 posts!

theonly4ever said:

^^ I like these 2 posts!

^^ Thanks!

HamsterHuey said:

The way he lived his life is that he always seemed to be in a special "Prince" place; a place/state of mind where he feels safe. The money he has earned over the years gave him means to do so and he created Paisley Park for real. To me, that was when his music turned into itself and became stale to me, except a few albums/songs.

The reason he has for sitting on that music is that it's his. I do not think we can expect Prince to understand the kind of love we have for his music as we pour our own emotions onto his music. And they are totally different than how he experiences his music. Let alone the ownership of that music, which is something that rates high on his agenda, as we know.

So PP was a place that he found the solace withoput having to release the music to reduce his ...discontent? Yes, creating a private xanadu can work wonders AND blunders I guess because i too was wondering what the hell was happening to the music after the label was established and the name sucked imo.

I know the music is his but that doesn't give a reason for not releasing it, speaking about keeping great songs to himself and flipping the bird to the world. Im more attune to believe your statment that he has solved his rage or what have you via the Paisley park complex and idea.

But does he still believe in it?

Wouldn't it a horrible idea that he already canabalised his own back catalogue and that The Rainbow Children is actually a reworking of previous recorded 1983 material?

Anyways, I am afraid most of us won't see that vaulted material in our lifetime. Prince would probably have to die first before OR he will have a trustee set fire to it all OR greedy family members pimp us yet again for something we already know.

For the record, I do not believe (for certain reasons I wont get into) that he has changed or "corrected" any of his previous recordings. And if he were to remaster and release those that were already offically released such as the whole 80's releases, they would remian in intact orignal form. Complete with lewd and lascivious content.

rdhull said:

Pardon me for this one hitting me like purple bricks (again, but it's not my fault), but in the movie Vickie, Cristina, Barcelona, written and directed Woody Allen, there's the subject matter of Javier Bardem's father, a poet of obvious great talent. He has several works of great poetry dealing with love etc. Bardem explains that he refuses to publish them. The theory about creating beautiful works and denying them to the public is discussed. Bardeem explained the fathers keeping his poetry to himself was "a way of getting back at them (the world) because after 1000s of years, they (people) have not learned to love." Hi ex-wife, Penelope Cruz, explains that the father is basically "witholding works from the public out of rage."

The reason this hit me with purple bricks is because it immediately remided me of the oft-asked question about why Prince released only specific gems, rather than some of the vault material that is of upper tier quality and really showed off his talents even more than what was already proven. We all know the songs that are mythic.

I remember reading in an interivew in the early 90's, RS maybe or Spin, where Prince disucssed a song that he had written the night before or so and he told the interviewer he was going to save that one because either the world was not ready for it or it would be on the upcoming The Dawn release, his mythic album of ethereal music of only primo goodness that has since never materialized.

Im wondering and ask what do you think is Princes reason again for keeping some of his best marterial, some we have no idea of, from the world. Now, and back then. In Vicky Christina Barcelona, the father kept his work private out of rage. Prince himself had an upbringing of family turnmoil, broken homes, estranged relationships, foster places and such. I remeber him stating in an interview that as a youth he would go to McDonalds and smell the food but would not be able to afford it. He stated that this made him angry. It's well rpeorted that he was put out of his house by his father and him at a phone booth crying asking if he could come home (shades of the end scene form The Rose!). His father told him "no, he couldn't" if he would not change etc. Cold Blooded (Rick) of a parent to do. I've heard of tough love but damn. Maybe this situation and others were antecedents of Princes behavior and thus, his reluctance to keep all the good stuff form the public. Because he is angry or whatever enough to not feel we deserve them. Ive always stated that we do not deserve the full complete Computer Blue because we wouldnt appreciate it anyways, yearning for the next song to dazzle us, while we fail to realize all the essence of work and out thered-ness of what we were hearing. yes, it had oti be cut down for the movie etc but Im talking about the general gist of things. Because technically he could have let us hear it via other means..b sides etc. I realize he was getting other material he was excited about out to us (DMSR A Pop Life speaks on him being excited about what he had recently created by June 1984) but then came the hoarding if you will. I would have just been satisfied about the haording, okay with the thought of the reocrd company editing and such to his output of songs if it were not for Princes comments regarding the Dawn etc.

So is it rage or what that keeps the great unheralded stuff in the vaults and to himself all these years. Tales from the purple decades show a sometimes troubled artist who's personality was obviously formed in his impresionable youth years. Would releasing some of this vaulted material of greatness bring solace? The movie never explained this or delved into it, but what about this? This isn't cards mutherfucker. This is (real) life.

I don't think you even have to go outside the Prince oeuvre to find evidence of this. Think about this exchange in Purple Rain:

Kid: Is that yours?

Dad: Of course it's mine. Whose else would it be? I got lots of 'em. They're all different, too.

Kid: I'd like to see 'em. You got 'em written down somewhere?

Dad: No, man - I don't write 'em down. I don't have to. There's a big difference between you and me.

Then later - the Kid finds that his dad did write them down. (And he finds them at a time when he doesn't know whether his father is alive or dead.) So why didn't he show them to his son? Does he resent that his child became more successful than he? Is he angry that the world didn't want as much of his talent as he was willing to give? Does he want to keep the best part of himself private - to be shared only with people he thinks are "worthy?" (Do such people even exist?)

In Prince's case, were there times that he was so angry with Warner Brothers (even back when things were rosier between them) that he didn't want to give them his best? Did he hold onto some of his gems as a hedge against a time when he might be out on his own - and possibly in need? Has he now been holding onto his "precious" for so long that he can't possibly let go? Is he angry that so many people have already heard them - and holding onto the pristine copies is the only way he can avenge the loss?

Or is it simply a matter of, the time having passed and feeling some of the works aren't really finished, he feels that he's no longer the same person and has no interest in finishing them.

In my own life, I've started a lot of sewing projects that I've had to drop for one reason or another. (I have a lot of uncut patterns and fabrics, and unfinished garments in my own "vault.") By the time I got back to them, styles (mine or the world's) had changed and I just didn't feel the same drive to complete them.

Is there anyone in Prince's world who would be so frightened...or angry...or torn up by his demise that they would smash down the doors of the vault, tear into the contents...and then lovingly catalog everything there (as we see The Kid do with his father's work)?

It's an interesting question.

^^ Yes it is! And all you have written too, Genesia...I really like this thread!

Interesting comments.

Personally, i no longer believe the vault is full of gems. There are obviously a few albums worth of good material that deserve an official release (perhaps enough for another CB) but on the whole, I don't think there's a great deal left to discover. The ones that didn't make an album was simply down to his creative vision, and no matter how good a song may be, if he felt it didn't fit the particular album's concept or 'flow', then it got put to one side.

The contents of the vault is becoming more and more a myth, rather than anything based in reality, imho.

btw - VCB is a great film.

Genesia said:

rdhull said:

Pardon me for this one hitting me like purple bricks (again, but it's not my fault), but in the movie Vickie, Cristina, Barcelona, written and directed Woody Allen, there's the subject matter of Javier Bardem's father, a poet of obvious great talent. He has several works of great poetry dealing with love etc. Bardem explains that he refuses to publish them. The theory about creating beautiful works and denying them to the public is discussed. Bardeem explained the fathers keeping his poetry to himself was "a way of getting back at them (the world) because after 1000s of years, they (people) have not learned to love." Hi ex-wife, Penelope Cruz, explains that the father is basically "witholding works from the public out of rage."

The reason this hit me with purple bricks is because it immediately remided me of the oft-asked question about why Prince released only specific gems, rather than some of the vault material that is of upper tier quality and really showed off his talents even more than what was already proven. We all know the songs that are mythic.

I remember reading in an interivew in the early 90's, RS maybe or Spin, where Prince disucssed a song that he had written the night before or so and he told the interviewer he was going to save that one because either the world was not ready for it or it would be on the upcoming The Dawn release, his mythic album of ethereal music of only primo goodness that has since never materialized.

Im wondering and ask what do you think is Princes reason again for keeping some of his best marterial, some we have no idea of, from the world. Now, and back then. In Vicky Christina Barcelona, the father kept his work private out of rage. Prince himself had an upbringing of family turnmoil, broken homes, estranged relationships, foster places and such. I remeber him stating in an interview that as a youth he would go to McDonalds and smell the food but would not be able to afford it. He stated that this made him angry. It's well rpeorted that he was put out of his house by his father and him at a phone booth crying asking if he could come home (shades of the end scene form The Rose!). His father told him "no, he couldn't" if he would not change etc. Cold Blooded (Rick) of a parent to do. I've heard of tough love but damn. Maybe this situation and others were antecedents of Princes behavior and thus, his reluctance to keep all the good stuff form the public. Because he is angry or whatever enough to not feel we deserve them. Ive always stated that we do not deserve the full complete Computer Blue because we wouldnt appreciate it anyways, yearning for the next song to dazzle us, while we fail to realize all the essence of work and out thered-ness of what we were hearing. yes, it had oti be cut down for the movie etc but Im talking about the general gist of things. Because technically he could have let us hear it via other means..b sides etc. I realize he was getting other material he was excited about out to us (DMSR A Pop Life speaks on him being excited about what he had recently created by June 1984) but then came the hoarding if you will. I would have just been satisfied about the haording, okay with the thought of the reocrd company editing and such to his output of songs if it were not for Princes comments regarding the Dawn etc.

So is it rage or what that keeps the great unheralded stuff in the vaults and to himself all these years. Tales from the purple decades show a sometimes troubled artist who's personality was obviously formed in his impresionable youth years. Would releasing some of this vaulted material of greatness bring solace? The movie never explained this or delved into it, but what about this? This isn't cards mutherfucker. This is (real) life.

I don't think you even have to go outside the Prince oeuvre to find evidence of this. Think about this exchange in Purple Rain:

Kid: Is that yours?

Dad: Of course it's mine. Whose else would it be? I got lots of 'em. They're all different, too.

Kid: I'd like to see 'em. You got 'em written down somewhere?

Dad: No, man - I don't write 'em down. I don't have to. There's a big difference between you and me.

Then later - the Kid finds that his dad did write them down. (And he finds them at a time when he doesn't know whether his father is alive or dead.) So why didn't he show them to his son? Does he resent that his child became more successful than he? Is he angry that the world didn't want as much of his talent as he was willing to give? Does he want to keep the best part of himself private - to be shared only with people he thinks are "worthy?" (Do such people even exist?)

In Prince's case, were there times that he was so angry with Warner Brothers (even back when things were rosier between them) that he didn't want to give them his best? Did he hold onto some of his gems as a hedge against a time when he might be out on his own - and possibly in need? Has he now been holding onto his "precious" for so long that he can't possibly let go? Is he angry that so many people have already heard them - and holding onto the pristine copies is the only way he can avenge the loss?

Or is it simply a matter of, the time having passed and feeling some of the works aren't really finished, he feels that he's no longer the same person and has no interest in finishing them.

In my own life, I've started a lot of sewing projects that I've had to drop for one reason or another. (I have a lot of uncut patterns and fabrics, and unfinished garments in my own "vault.") By the time I got back to them, styles (mine or the world's) had changed and I just didn't feel the same drive to complete them.

Is there anyone in Prince's world who would be so frightened...or angry...or torn up by his demise that they would smash down the doors of the vault, tear into the contents...and then lovingly catalog everything there (as we see The Kid do with his father's work)?

It's an interesting question.

Wow. A lot of things I didn't consider. That he may have kept the gems to himself instead of giving them to Warner Bros. I didnt realize until a few ago that he was battling WB even in the 80's. But as I said he stated in that interview about keeping songs for The Dawn. I dont think they were kept to save for a rainy day but out of semi ego and as genuine eccentric. The movie scenario probably does have some truth to it Im sure and Prince said in that RS 1985 interview that his father's music is some of the bext he has ever heard..beautiful melodies and all of that. Another thing of your comment to consider that Im now aware to and should be important to all fans is what you said about maybe he doesnt feel the songs are not complete and that he is no longer is compelled to work on them OR/AND not complelled enough anymore to even consider them

But why revisit the known famed gems as of late in concert?

Either way this is all probably true at some time in the past 30 years ..each consideration you posted.

boscho said:

Personally, i no longer believe the vault is full of gems. There are obviously a few albums worth of good material that deserve an official release (perhaps enough for another CB) but on the whole, I don't think there's a great deal left to discover. The ones that didn't make an album was simply down to his creative vision, and no matter how good a song may be, if he felt it didn't fit the particular album's concept or 'flow', then it got put to one side.

The contents of the vault is becoming more and more a myth, rather than anything based in reality, imho.

btw - VCB is a great film.

The vault is no myth. And there's tons of stuff that isnt known of by the die hards that Im sure is top notch quality and experimental as hell.

rdhull said:

boscho said:

Personally, i no longer believe the vault is full of gems. There are obviously a few albums worth of good material that deserve an official release (perhaps enough for another CB) but on the whole, I don't think there's a great deal left to discover. The ones that didn't make an album was simply down to his creative vision, and no matter how good a song may be, if he felt it didn't fit the particular album's concept or 'flow', then it got put to one side.

The contents of the vault is becoming more and more a myth, rather than anything based in reality, imho.

btw - VCB is a great film.

The vault is no myth. And there's tons of stuff that isnt known of by the die hards that Im sure is top notch quality and experimental as hell.

I didn't say the vault itself is a myth. I said the belief that it's crammed full of gems is a myth.

[Edited 9/21/11 2:58am]

rdhull said:

Genesia said:

I don't think you even have to go outside the Prince oeuvre to find evidence of this. Think about this exchange in Purple Rain:

Kid: Is that yours?

Dad: Of course it's mine. Whose else would it be? I got lots of 'em. They're all different, too.

Kid: I'd like to see 'em. You got 'em written down somewhere?

Dad: No, man - I don't write 'em down. I don't have to. There's a big difference between you and me.

Then later - the Kid finds that his dad did write them down. (And he finds them at a time when he doesn't know whether his father is alive or dead.) So why didn't he show them to his son? Does he resent that his child became more successful than he? Is he angry that the world didn't want as much of his talent as he was willing to give? Does he want to keep the best part of himself private - to be shared only with people he thinks are "worthy?" (Do such people even exist?)

In Prince's case, were there times that he was so angry with Warner Brothers (even back when things were rosier between them) that he didn't want to give them his best? Did he hold onto some of his gems as a hedge against a time when he might be out on his own - and possibly in need? Has he now been holding onto his "precious" for so long that he can't possibly let go? Is he angry that so many people have already heard them - and holding onto the pristine copies is the only way he can avenge the loss?

Or is it simply a matter of, the time having passed and feeling some of the works aren't really finished, he feels that he's no longer the same person and has no interest in finishing them.

In my own life, I've started a lot of sewing projects that I've had to drop for one reason or another. (I have a lot of uncut patterns and fabrics, and unfinished garments in my own "vault.") By the time I got back to them, styles (mine or the world's) had changed and I just didn't feel the same drive to complete them.

Is there anyone in Prince's world who would be so frightened...or angry...or torn up by his demise that they would smash down the doors of the vault, tear into the contents...and then lovingly catalog everything there (as we see The Kid do with his father's work)?

It's an interesting question.

Wow. A lot of things I didn't consider. That he may have kept the gems to himself instead of giving them to Warner Bros. I didnt realize until a few ago that he was battling WB even in the 80's. But as I said he stated in that interview about keeping songs for The Dawn. I dont think they were kept to save for a rainy day but out of semi ego and as genuine eccentric. The movie scenario probably does have some truth to it Im sure and Prince said in that RS 1985 interview that his father's music is some of the bext he has ever heard..beautiful melodies and all of that. Another thing of your comment to consider that Im now aware to and should be important to all fans is what you said about maybe he doesnt feel the songs are not complete and that he is no longer is compelled to work on them OR/AND not complelled enough anymore to even consider them

But why revisit the known famed gems as of late in concert?

Either way this is all probably true at some time in the past 30 years ..each consideration you posted.

The thing is...with some of those recorded gems (Large Room With No Light springs quickest to mind), they were sort of like catching lightning in a bottle. How does he update/finish those when he doesn't have the same people around him? (This gets to your other thread about influence/inspiration.) He knows that shit was magic. And if he can't make it perfect (or even do it justice) now, it's going to sit.

I think playing something like that in concert is his way of saying, "Yeah, I know it's there - and I know you want to hear it. But I'll do it in my own time and in my own way." Knowing full well, of course, that the performance is going to get out and make everyone's head explode.

He has a flair for drama, has Prince. And that - coupled with his crazy perfectionism - is what holds him back, I think. He wants everything to be huge and splashy - but perfect. And the world rarely lets him combine all that the way he'd like.

I don't know why Prince does not release his better quality tracks sometimes. I don't think it is necessarily psychological, but maybe an intent on his part to make a more business saavy move by saving them for lean times. At least that was how it seemed to be before he reconnected with his Jehovah's Witness faith. Now it seems, he just doesn't enjoy putting out risque music, so he holds a lot of stuff back for that reason. Or even when he does put it out he fiddles with the lyrics and mix until the song is WEAKER than the original creation (think FutureSoulSong, Hot Summer), and then says he did it to save his soul. I dunno.

Hi, great thread..... lots of thoughts going on now.

I remember him talking around the Lotusflower project that he wrote a song called The Divine - but we were not ready to hear it yet and he put it away.

But the analogy of the P.R. movie with him vs. his father and the songs being found in the box was really cool. I could understand someone being angry and hanging on to thing and not sharing them until some time passed or the mood changed. People do that all the time with bootleg music now.

Interesting how Prince had this in the movie and we never really thought about it but it makes so much sense now that Prince has evolved more spiritually and left some of that part of him in the past.

Hope he wakes up and releases some of these in our life time.