Andy Greens' RS review of Paul Trynka's just recently released 4 starred bio on David Bowie, titled David Bowie:Starman, writes:

"How deep does Trynka go? For starters, he tracks down the kid who punched 15-year-old Bowie in the face in a fight over a girl, permanently disfiguring his eye. He aslo gives ample room to the critics who see Bowie as a musical vampire who's spent decades absorbing the ideas of others (Marc Bolan, Mick Ronson, Iggy Pop) and passing them off as his own. But Trynka is a staunch Bowie defender: "In reality, he rarely took from [his collaborators]-he inspired them to summon up ideas that would never have existed without him."

That statment hit me like a ton of purple colored bricks. It reminded me of the constant debate-fights-criticsms-accusations-insert-controversy-here regarding Princes past glories. We all know the ones Im talking about. Him supposedly reaching great heights by way of The Revolution, specifically Wendy and Lisa, before that, Mr. Cymone, stealing style and licks from Jesse, various writing credits , taking ideas off of those NPG-ers etc.etc. etc.

Its good to see that Bowie had that criticism and not just Prince. Yes, its well known that Bowie did/does soak up inspiration and ideas from his surroundings, as Madonna does, and god knows probably 50% of artists out there. Hell, The Stones bit off the Beatles (Satanic Majesty, their version of Doctor..I mean Sgt Pepper, Led Zep ripping off Spirits 'Taurus' for Stairway/Johnson for Whole Lotta Love) etc but in the Prince fandom kingdom, thats always held up high as a main factor, red herring, or straw man argument. Much more by online Prince fans than those artists mentioned.

I always remember Jimmy Jam in many past interviews ALWAYS giving Prince proper credit for inspiring him, Lewis, and The Time members to strive and reach for excellence , and that that was the key element of their success within the Prince camp and beyond. Wendy has also said in print iirc almost damn near the same sentiments in that Prince created a great creative push/vacume for everyone to do great things.

Were they all inspired to "summon up ideas that would never have existed without him"? I never got to hear that W&L kids cd they made in their youth, never heard Flyte Times material previous to The Time etc, Andre's own ideas on his solo cds were okay, Wendy and Lisa's releases have been okay but not awe inspiring as Princes seminal works imo, and the other band members who have come in and out haven't really struck a major chord with me, even though their output is respectable. Isn't it possible that Prince inspired them as well instead of Prince being this musically blank ignorant slate that had to be shown the palette color scheme by everyone around him? The popular consensus goes that Prince was introduced to several ideals , themes, and artists, by others to create what he did. But its also possible that Princes own creative skills elevated the other band members. Gave them the confidence to add strings, to make their own solo cds, to explore sound dynamics that they presented on his albums and their own solo.

.

[Edited 9/18/11 17:09pm]

If Bowie is a vampire. What the fuck is Lady Gaga? I disagree with that. Bowie and Prince are influenced by them. They aren't mere copies or thieves. Lady Gaga is a Copy and a Thief of ideas, as example.

Bowie's career is akin to Prince's in many aspects. The 70's belonged to Bowie just as the 80's to Prince.

And regarding the subject of this thread, I think they absorbed many things that were around them, some of them brought by the people they knew or with which they worked, and reworked them in an original fashion. That has merit, and a lot of, it's not diminishing their value at all. Have they even stolen sometimes? Maybe, but always with talent.

I think it's also true that they have influenced positively on other's work and, in general, on many people's lives.

They are my two favourite musicians, by the way.

sfinky1 said:

Bowie himself said in an interview around 96/97 that he does not at all consider himself "an original thinker"... Said that he merely absorbs and reflects elements of culture around him into his work.. But that this is what ANY artist does...

Every artist is the outcome of it's influences. Both Bowie and Prince took them and made them their own.

Javi said:

Bowie's career is akin to Prince's in many aspects. The 70's belonged to Bowie just as the 80's to Prince.

And regarding the subject of this thread, I think they absorbed many things that were around them, some of them brought by the people they knew or with which they worked, and reworked them in an original fashion. That has merit, and a lot of, it's not diminishing their value at all. Have they even stolen sometimes? Maybe, but always with talent.

I think it's also true that they have influenced positively on other's work and, in general, on many people's lives.

They are my two favourite musicians, by the way.

I agree. I love Bowie, my second favorite male musician.

Bowie has always brought the music he heard, sometimes known only by minorities, to a wide public. This is, in my opinion, a huge merit of his. That happened, for example, with Krautrock, which he brought to the cultivated masses Low and Heroes.

There was a joke around 1997, when Bowie released Earthling, that stated that Bowie actually invented jungle... Of course not, but more people were interested in it because of him.

One thing is clear: Bowie's records sound mainly like Bowie. That is, he creates an original sound from all his diverse range of influences. I think the same can be said of Prince.

Javi said:

Bowie has always brought the music he heard, sometimes known only by minorities, to a wide public. This is, in my opinion, a huge merit of his. That happened, for example, with Krautrock, which he brought to the cultivated masses Low and Heroes.

There was a joke around 1997, when Bowie released Earthling, that stated that Bowie actually invented jungle... Of course not, but more people were interested in it because of him.

One thing is clear: Bowie's records sound mainly like Bowie. That is, he creates an original sound from all his diverse range of influences. I think the same can be said of Prince.

Im not speaking about Prince, Bowie, absorbing their surroundings and making it their own. We all know they have done that.

Im speaking about if they themselves were the catalyst for the creativity of their side men, band mates etc

It seems like that is never considered form the audience regarding Prince. Its always "prince stole this idea from!...Prince needed (___) to create ___!"...Prince wouldnt be shit without____!"

The reason it was never considered because both Prince and Bowie never stole. They just absorb what everyone did around them. Plus they made it their own sound so that's why people come off thinking they "did it first" but it was really they took parts and it made their persons great. That's all.

Timmy84 said:

The reason it was never considered because both Prince and Bowie never stole. They just absorb what everyone did around them. Plus they made it their own sound so that's why people come off thinking they "did it first" but it was really they took parts and it made their persons great. That's all.

What about the others surrounding them. Did they get any inspiration out of Prince and Bowie to take themselves higher in these situations? As was stated by the reviewer in my initial post.

^ I say it's possible they did. It's just some are more out there as far as stating that Prince/Bowie were their inspirations.

rdhull said:

Timmy84 said:

The reason it was never considered because both Prince and Bowie never stole. They just absorb what everyone did around them. Plus they made it their own sound so that's why people come off thinking they "did it first" but it was really they took parts and it made their persons great. That's all.

What about the others surrounding them. Did they get any inspiration out of Prince and Bowie to take themselves higher in these situations? As was stated by the reviewer in my initial post.

I think so. But there's a big difference. Prince's people weren't successful on their own, they've always been associated with and subordinated to Prince. Look at Andre Cymone, Wendy And Lisa, Jesse Johnson, etc. Perhaps that's why they may be reluctanct to acknowledge Prince's positive influence on their careers.

On the contrary, among Bowie's people there have been many who already had a name, success and had showed their talents independently of Bowie. I mean Lou Reed, Iggy Pop or Brian Eno. Among these, Iggy has always been very reluctanct to state Bowie's influence on him, although it's obvious that Pop's main achievements as a solo artist are Bowie's productions.

mistake

[Edited 9/18/11 10:30am]

A little from column A, a little from column B.

There's nothing wrong with vampiric artistically as long as you're putting your spin on it or giving props where due. Obviously some see it this way, but I don't think 'inspiration' comes from a divine flash of light or a gift from baby Jesus - it's hard work mixed with magpie-ing what turns you on and ideas you want to explore. Nothing is really, truly original. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Javi said:

rdhull said:

What about the others surrounding them. Did they get any inspiration out of Prince and Bowie to take themselves higher in these situations? As was stated by the reviewer in my initial post.

I think so. But there's a big difference. Prince's people weren't successful on their own, they've always been associated with and subordinated to Prince. Look at Andre Cymone, Wendy And Lisa, Jesse Johnson, etc. Perhaps that's why they may be reluctanct to acknowledge Prince's positive influence on their careers.

On the contrary, among Bowie's people there have been many who already had a name, success and had showed their talents independently of Bowie. I mean Lou Reed, Iggy Pop or Brian Eno. Among these, Iggy has always been very reluctanct to state Bowie's influence on him, although it's obvious that Pop's main achievements as a solo artist are Bowie's productions.

And that's where the similarities end.

NouveauDance said:

A little from column A, a little from column B.

There's nothing wrong with vampiric artistically as long as you're putting your spin on it or giving props where due. Obviously some see it this way, but I don't think 'inspiration' comes from a divine flash of light or a gift from baby Jesus - it's hard work mixed with magpie-ing what turns you on and ideas you want to explore. Nothing is really, truly original. And there's nothing wrong with that.

And I hate when people always go on about originality. Nothing's original. Never was. Everything has always been a copy or just a repeat. It's just in how you interpret that copy/repeat that is the difference.

NouveauDance said:

A little from column A, a little from column B.

There's nothing wrong with vampiric artistically as long as you're putting your spin on it or giving props where due. Obviously some see it this way, but I don't think 'inspiration' comes from a divine flash of light or a gift from baby Jesus - it's hard work mixed with magpie-ing what turns you on and ideas you want to explore. Nothing is really, truly original. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Yep Yep!

I've been listening to the Berlin Trilogy a lot these months and if I hadn't read the Wikipedia articles, I probably wouldn't tell that Kraftwerk were the main influences behind those projects, even though I'm a fan of their music as well.

I do think that the divine flash is just their way of saying "I crafted my voice/instrument". Because to be heavily influenced by Kraftwreck, supposedly, and come out sounding like nobody but David Bowie takes alot of work and craftmenship. I think this too applies to Prince. Both artists found and mastered their own "voices", despite the fact that they were heavily influenced by other factors.

Harlepolis said:

NouveauDance said:

A little from column A, a little from column B.

There's nothing wrong with vampiric artistically as long as you're putting your spin on it or giving props where due. Obviously some see it this way, but I don't think 'inspiration' comes from a divine flash of light or a gift from baby Jesus - it's hard work mixed with magpie-ing what turns you on and ideas you want to explore. Nothing is really, truly original. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Yep Yep!

I've been listening to the Berlin Trilogy a lot these months and if I hadn't read the Wikipedia articles, I probably wouldn't tell that Kraftwerk were the main influences behind those projects, even though I'm a fan of their music as well.

I do think that the divine flash is just their way of saying "I crafted my voice/instrument". Because to be heavily influenced by Kraftwreck, supposedly, and come out sounding like nobody but David Bowie takes alot of work and craftmenship. I think this too applies to Prince. Both artists found and mastered their own "voices", despite the fact that they were heavily influenced by other factors.

In my opinion, Kraftwerk are there, but mixed with a "black sounding" rhythm section, the result of which is simply amazing. And the result of which is simply David Bowie.

Javi said:

Harlepolis said:

Yep Yep!

I've been listening to the Berlin Trilogy a lot these months and if I hadn't read the Wikipedia articles, I probably wouldn't tell that Kraftwerk were the main influences behind those projects, even though I'm a fan of their music as well.

I do think that the divine flash is just their way of saying "I crafted my voice/instrument". Because to be heavily influenced by Kraftwreck, supposedly, and come out sounding like nobody but David Bowie takes alot of work and craftmenship. I think this too applies to Prince. Both artists found and mastered their own "voices", despite the fact that they were heavily influenced by other factors.

In my opinion, Kraftwerk are there, but mixed with a "black sounding" rhythm section, the result of which is simply amazing. And the result of which is simply David Bowie.

I almost didn't recognize Kraftwerk and the "R&B rhythm section", David meshed those words well to the point where you almost didn't know the influences! That's how good, no, how great he was/is.

to get to what RD is asking...I think it goes both ways...take Madhouse for example....or even The Family...I don't think those albums would have come out sounding as they do without Prince and Eric Leeds working together....then again, would Eric's Times Squared have come out as it did without prince working and inspiring Eric in the years beforehand...Jill Jones first solo album is very much Prince inspired....but she had been with Prince's group since 81 or 82....so there's a kind of fusion between them all...definitely with The Time there's a bit of both...Prince and most of the Time grew up together so they would have bounced ideas throughout their 'formative' years growing up..which is probably where Prince got a lot of his ideas/inspiration...as would have 'Flyte Time'...I remember Prince saying when he was young Sonny T was the'muso' all the local kids looked up to...and that went full circle when Sonny T joined the original NPG..it's all swings and turns-about....each would have rubbed off on each other...some more than others...

personally, I think Eric Leeds played a big part in 'growing' Prince's 'sound' from the original 80's synthesiser minneapolis sound to the fuller jazz leanings later on...some bandmembers were trusted/respected more than others...wendy and lisa were often left to add their input without Prince's supervision....eric was too...and with their input the music grew fuller and more complicated...by having musicians that were from 'different worlds' musically, the combined talents brought more to the table....and Prince was open to new things....unfortunately Prince has, with a few exceptions, in the 2000's kinda surrounded himself with people that don't inject something 'new'.and desn't seem to be as 'open' ..i think the last musicians to challenge Prince and bring the best out of him would be John Blackwell and Renato...but how much they were allowed to bring to the table is anyones guess....

also, it's a different musical world nowdays...Prince was surrounded by diverse music in the 60s through to the 80's...since the 90's there's been a real 'corporate push' behind what's in the charts...to the point where it all sounds the same...a bit like television, 50 channels - all with the same style of programs...so he's kinda had nothing to bounce off either....sorry to go off topic!!

jimino1 said:

to get to what RD is asking...I think it goes both ways...take Madhouse for example....or even The Family...I don't think those albums would have come out sounding as they do without Prince and Eric Leeds working together....then again, would Eric's Times Squared have come out as it did without prince working and inspiring Eric in the years beforehand...Jill Jones first solo album is very much Prince inspired....but she had been with Prince's group since 81 or 82....so there's a kind of fusion between them all...definitely with The Time there's a bit of both...Prince and most of the Time grew up together so they would have bounced ideas throughout their 'formative' years growing up..which is probably where Prince got a lot of his ideas/inspiration...as would have 'Flyte Time'...I remember Prince saying when he was young Sonny T was the'muso' all the local kids looked up to...and that went full circle when Sonny T joined the original NPG..it's all swings and turns-about....each would have rubbed off on each other...some more than others...

personally, I think Eric Leeds played a big part in 'growing' Prince's 'sound' from the original 80's synthesiser minneapolis sound to the fuller jazz leanings later on...some bandmembers were trusted/respected more than others...wendy and lisa were often left to add their input without Prince's supervision....eric was too...and with their input the music grew fuller and more complicated...by having musicians that were from 'different worlds' musically, the combined talents brought more to the table....and Prince was open to new things....unfortunately Prince has, with a few exceptions, in the 2000's kinda surrounded himself with people that don't inject something 'new'.and desn't seem to be as 'open' ..i think the last musicians to challenge Prince and bring the best out of him would be John Blackwell and Renato...but how much they were allowed to bring to the table is anyones guess....

also, it's a different musical world nowdays...Prince was surrounded by diverse music in the 60s through to the 80's...since the 90's there's been a real 'corporate push' behind what's in the charts...to the point where it all sounds the same...a bit like television, 50 channels - all with the same style of programs...so he's kinda had nothing to bounce off either....sorry to go off topic!!

Good post, especially agree with the last paragraph. Oh boy, it's sadly all so true.

Bowie was good at putting elements together of what was going on in music by keeping one ear to the ground, listening to things in and out of the mainstream and if it inspired him, he used it by bringing those elements in to the recording studio. Commercially, the Berlin trilogy didn't do well but was considered influential, and in the mid-late 80s, did well enough but was prob. his worst creative period, until he did Tin Machine.

Who knows with him - he might get dig up Ziggy next year, just because he can.

A lot of kids looked to Bowie in the 70s as someone "weird" and different. He was a big catalyst in punk rock. And when punk rock was going on, he was playing the electronic music, but also got to experience some of it as Iggy's backing musician, because a lot of punk rockers came to the shows at the time.

The only real low point for Bowie was in the mid-late 80s, where he was just fulfilling record contracts, getting played on MTV, and having minor hits. But then he does Tin Machine after the Glass Spider show, which comes across as a big show with no substance to it, plays small venues, none of his own songs, and kickstarted his creative spark for the next decade. He's not a man who spends much time resting on his laurels. When he did "Man Who Sold the World" on the NIN tour in the mid 90s, it was more of a eulogy to Nirvana at that time.

As far as Lady Gaga goes, keep in mind she's only been recording for 3 or 4 years. It's like basing Prince's entire career off his self-titled, and playing "Bambi" live at the time.

I honestly don't think it's possible for someone to have worked as long and as intimately as, say, Wendy and Lisa did with Prince - and not be inspired. Or maybe "influenced" is a better word. Even though I am emphatically not a member of the "Prince stole from/didn't pay/screwed over Lisa and Wendy" club, I think there was a creative give-and-take there that none of us can ever fully appreciate.

I always think it's ridiculous when, in recent years, W&L have appeared with or contributed to Prince projects and people ask them, "Did he pay you?" I think it's a mark of his regard for them that he doesn't. Sort of like when I've brainstormed with friends on their creative projects. I would never expect to be paid - outside of them buying the drinks while we work. It's a sign that he views them as equals and colleagues - not as employees.

Inspiration is a 2-way street

jimino1 said:

to get to what RD is asking...I think it goes both ways...take Madhouse for example....or even The Family...I don't think those albums would have come out sounding as they do without Prince and Eric Leeds working together....then again, would Eric's Times Squared have come out as it did without prince working and inspiring Eric in the years beforehand...Jill Jones first solo album is very much Prince inspired....but she had been with Prince's group since 81 or 82....so there's a kind of fusion between them all...definitely with The Time there's a bit of both...Prince and most of the Time grew up together so they would have bounced ideas throughout their 'formative' years growing up..which is probably where Prince got a lot of his ideas/inspiration...as would have 'Flyte Time'...I remember Prince saying when he was young Sonny T was the'muso' all the local kids looked up to...and that went full circle when Sonny T joined the original NPG..it's all swings and turns-about....each would have rubbed off on each other...some more than others...

personally, I think Eric Leeds played a big part in 'growing' Prince's 'sound' from the original 80's synthesiser minneapolis sound to the fuller jazz leanings later on...some bandmembers were trusted/respected more than others...wendy and lisa were often left to add their input without Prince's supervision....eric was too...and with their input the music grew fuller and more complicated...by having musicians that were from 'different worlds' musically, the combined talents brought more to the table....and Prince was open to new things....unfortunately Prince has, with a few exceptions, in the 2000's kinda surrounded himself with people that don't inject something 'new'.and desn't seem to be as 'open' ..i think the last musicians to challenge Prince and bring the best out of him would be John Blackwell and Renato...but how much they were allowed to bring to the table is anyones guess....

also, it's a different musical world nowdays...Prince was surrounded by diverse music in the 60s through to the 80's...since the 90's there's been a real 'corporate push' behind what's in the charts...to the point where it all sounds the same...a bit like television, 50 channels - all with the same style of programs...so he's kinda had nothing to bounce off either....sorry to go off topic!!

aka The Prince fusion. I agree with this but the portion of others challenging Prince to bring out the best in him: I think it went at least both ways. Pricne challenged all band mates to go farther in their playing imo. He gave them confidence and discipline imo.

dalsh327 said:

Bowie was good at putting elements together of what was going on in music by keeping one ear to the ground, listening to things in and out of the mainstream and if it inspired him, he used it by bringing those elements in to the recording studio. Commercially, the Berlin trilogy didn't do well but was considered influential, and in the mid-late 80s, did well enough but was prob. his worst creative period, until he did Tin Machine.

Who knows with him - he might get dig up Ziggy next year, just because he can.

A lot of kids looked to Bowie in the 70s as someone "weird" and different. He was a big catalyst in punk rock. And when punk rock was going on, he was playing the electronic music, but also got to experience some of it as Iggy's backing musician, because a lot of punk rockers came to the shows at the time.

The only real low point for Bowie was in the mid-late 80s, where he was just fulfilling record contracts, getting played on MTV, and having minor hits. But then he does Tin Machine after the Glass Spider show, which comes across as a big show with no substance to it, plays small venues, none of his own songs, and kickstarted his creative spark for the next decade. He's not a man who spends much time resting on his laurels. When he did "Man Who Sold the World" on the NIN tour in the mid 90s, it was more of a eulogy to Nirvana at that time.

As far as Lady Gaga goes, keep in mind she's only been recording for 3 or 4 years. It's like basing Prince's entire career off his self-titled, and playing "Bambi" live at the time.

This is a nice overview of Bowie but...huh?

Genesia said:

I honestly don't think it's possible for someone to have worked as long and as intimately as, say, Wendy and Lisa did with Prince - and not be inspired. Or maybe "influenced" is a better word. Even though I am emphatically not a member of the "Prince stole from/didn't pay/screwed over Lisa and Wendy" club, I think there was a creative give-and-take there that none of us can ever fully appreciate.

I always think it's ridiculous when, in recent years, W&L have appeared with or contributed to Prince projects and people ask them, "Did he pay you?" I think it's a mark of his regard for them that he doesn't. Sort of like when I've brainstormed with friends on their creative projects. I would never expect to be paid - outside of them buying the drinks while we work. It's a sign that he views them as equals and colleagues - not as employees.

I agree with this. This is like a smooth Miles song. Dont ask.

Good subject. I don't claim to have a huge knowledge of music but it seems to me that artists like Bowie and Prince have carried on the traditional torch of artists who came before them and influenced them (like James Brown, etc. in Prince's case). In the case of the specified artists, they didn't simply repeat what influenced them--they turned it into something of their own, which IMO is the biggest compliment you could ever give an artist that you admire. After all, there is "nothing new under the sun." And that, in my opinion, is what is missing from too much music today--carrying on the torch of great music by turning it into your own individual great music.

[Edited 9/20/11 20:03pm]