I've seen this criticism of prince here. Why is this an issue? Don't most musicians follow some trend? And aren't most innovations the product of being new to the music scene? Anyone have any thoughts on Prince being a trend setter opposed to being a trend follower?

i don't understand...in what he's following trends?

Also, I would like to ask: When hasn't Prince followed trends? He doesn't exist in a vacuum. His music has always incorporated current sounds.

[Edited 9/9/11 9:43am]

From Dirty Mind until about 1990, Prince did not follow trends , he set them. The best thing about the Prince of that era was that he took bits and pieces of what was going on around him ( musically) and came up with a sound that was unique. He was also surrounded by musicians who opened his mind up to new sounds. Eventually he developed a sound that was distinct and unlike anything else we had heard before.

I don't know if you can call him a trend follower from 1990 on, but he deinitely stopped working as hard to come up with new and interesting sounds I think he got comfortable in his own sound and clung to it a little to tightly. Kind of the way you'll see some guys my age (40) still trying to work the same hairstyle they had back in the 90's Where that guy needs to let it go and maybe visit a new salon, P needs to admit that he might need some help , challenge himself again and maybe get with a new producer or something. Of course , this isn't going to happen but it should.

chrisslope9 said:

From Dirty Mind until about 1990, Prince did not follow trends , he set them. The best thing about the Prince of that era was that he took bits and pieces of what was going on around him ( musically) and came up with a sound that was unique. He was also surrounded by musicians who opened his mind up to new sounds. Eventually he developed a sound that was distinct and unlike anything else we had heard before.

I don't know if you can call him a trend follower from 1990 on, but he deinitely stopped working as hard to come up with new and interesting sounds I think he got comfortable in his own sound and clung to it a little to tightly. Kind of the way you'll see some guys my age (40) still trying to work the same hairstyle they had back in the 90's Where that guy needs to let it go and maybe visit a new salon, P needs to admit that he might need some help , challenge himself again and maybe get with a new producer or something. Of course , this isn't going to happen but it should.

But don't you only set trends at the beginning of your career? Prince basically created the "minneapolis sound" but he also used disco, punk which were trends concurrent with his coming of age. Not to mention soul, funk, and rock that were so established that they weren't considered trends but basic foundations of music.

So many people copied the "minneapolis sound" that Prince became just one of many using that sound which probably led to him exploring different sounds.

Most people seem to accuse Prince of following trends when it comes to hip-hop but I always thought it was brave of him to incorporate that into his music to the extent that he did. And when he did he created a hip-hop sound that was more "musical" than what was happinging with hip-hop at the time. Live instruments as opposed to just samples of old records.

Where you say Prince "clung tightly" to his sound I say its quite the opposite. He has shown a propensivity to change his sound from album to album. Bringing in producers would definitely be chasing trends more then doing it himself.

chrisslope9 said:

From Dirty Mind until about 1990, Prince did not follow trends , he set them. The best thing about the Prince of that era was that he took bits and pieces of what was going on around him ( musically) and came up with a sound that was unique. He was also surrounded by musicians who opened his mind up to new sounds. Eventually he developed a sound that was distinct and unlike anything else we had heard before.

I don't know if you can call him a trend follower from 1990 on, but he deinitely stopped working as hard to come up with new and interesting sounds I think he got comfortable in his own sound and clung to it a little to tightly. Kind of the way you'll see some guys my age (40) still trying to work the same hairstyle they had back in the 90's Where that guy needs to let it go and maybe visit a new salon, P needs to admit that he might need some help , challenge himself again and maybe get with a new producer or something. Of course , this isn't going to happen but it should.

I think there were ways Prince conformed to trends in the 80's

Prince snatched up the synth sounds and electronic drum beats that were popular with New Wave music from 1981-1986. (1999 and Delirious fit right into the popular sound of the likes of Human League's "Keep Feeling Fascination" or that retro song "Freeze Frame". He also completely appropriated the English New Wave/New Romantic Look (check Adam Ant, or "hair swept to one side"). His tone of reverb and EQ on 1999 and Purple Rain on the vocals and intruments also completely fits with the sound that was popular at that time. He supposedly even admitted to trying to get some of that epic Journey ballad genre with the music of the song "Purple Rain". And quote: "We need to get some of that Duran Duran money" so he formed The Family.

I think he was original with Dirty Miind, then more trendy with Controversy, 1999, Purple Rain with certain elements. Then he went back to more original with Around the World in A Day through Lovesexy. Then with Batman he tried to have a more commercial tone to some of the music, even hiring rising techno star William Orbit for some official remixes, and with Grafitti Bridge he even had a Junior Vasquez beat on the freakin album with "Round and Round". Also the style of the song "Love Machine" is very late 80's.

From 1980 to 1984: he set the trends

1985-1988: he created groundbreaking music (which is not the same thing as trendy)

1990-1996: he followed the trends

To me there isnt in the first place a problem with 'following trends', as long as the songwriting is good, the production is fine and the heart and soul is 'there'.

But when you take some of the most cliched elements of certain styles and force them into your music in a rather awkward way, it becomes annoying. Especially when you seem to follow these trends only or mostly because they are popular in the charts, instead of having a real artistic affection with them.

tricky99 said:

I've seen this criticism of prince here. Why is this an issue? Don't most musicians follow some trend? And aren't most innovations the product of being new to the music scene? Anyone have any thoughts on Prince being a trend setter opposed to being a trend follower?

Sure all musicians follow trends...but not everybody worked so hard at one point and was actually setting trends. Then the album happened and it was like "ok, his atempt at rave music with I wanna melt with u" - but perhaps he not jumping on the popular bandwagon..perhaps its a one off afterall there is regae, rock etc on that album. WRONGO - every single was loaded with 'rave' remixes and since then he been doing a Madonna; abandoning his own identity musically for generic songs (or generic/repetetive my his standards) - anyway that just my opinion.

Trouble is the guy himself thinks hes still a trend setter "I dont follow trends they just follow me"

hes not

JoeTyler said:

From 1980 to 1984: he set the trends

1985-1988: he created groundbreaking music (which is not the same thing as trendy)

1990-1996: he followed the trends

1978 - 1979: He followed the trends of the seventies, without offering any distincitive style of his own (he was only promising as an instrumentalist).

1980 - 1984: He was trendsetting 'soundwise', but somewhat censoring himself artistically because of his commercial ambitions.

1985 - 1988: His 'peak period': his creative output became more 'free' and both his music and lyrics showed more depth, subtlety and nuances.

1989 - 1995: a Mish-mash period: he was at one hand trying to go for a more traditional / organic / quasi-live sound with the NPG (going back to 'rootsy' styles like sixties JB-funk, blues, soul and jazz). On the other hand he was still hungry to be commercially recognized, leading to failed attempts of incorporating elements

into his music that just weren't his thing (hip-hop, dance/techno, reggae, new jack swing). His albums werent overall successes anymore, but there were some great songs to be found on most of them.

1996 - 2000: His 'worst period': using a lot of elements from the very soulless 'contemporary R&B' in his music and production styles, Kirky J offering plastic production on his albums, formulaic songwriting and production. A lost artist.

2000 - 2004: Prince seems still 'drifting' and to think following his muse (his muse, or Jehovahs muse?) might help: like he felt, hey, if you dont buy my music anymore now i am an independent artist, i could as well play worn-out jazz-rock from the seventies and sing about Jehovah. Nobody seems to care anymore, so i don't give a shit. Luckily people didnt give a shit anymore.

2004 - 2011: A 'slight' improvement over the period 1996 - 2004, with the emphasis on 'slight': He toned down his JW-message a bit, and tried to focus on more concise songwriting. The albums from this period are mildly entertaining affairs, but nothing more then that. The kind of albums you give a spin for like three times, and then shelve away in your CD-rack. As unsubstantial and inoffensive and shallow as these Rod Stewart 'american songbook' CD's. Combined with live-shows that remind me of some Vegas-act going through the motions, i dont have any hopes whatsoever when it comes to Prince artistically reviving his career in the following years.

JoeTyler said:

From 1980 to 1984: he set the trends

1985-1988: he created groundbreaking music (which is not the same thing as trendy)

1990-1996: he followed the trends

That makes complete sense especially the '90s period. I almost was embarrassed FOR Prince lol

There is a difference between following trends and being influenced by something. But I think the results speak for themselves - reasons, timing etc aside, following trends of synthpop, new wave and electronic music in the early 80s - worked like a fucking charm. Following R&B chart shit like R.Kelly and Usher in the 90s/00s - embarassing, unlistenable turds.

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

From 1980 to 1984: he set the trends

1985-1988: he created groundbreaking music (which is not the same thing as trendy)

1990-1996: he followed the trends

That makes complete sense especially the '90s period. I almost was embarrassed FOR Prince lol

but the songs were (are) good!

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

That makes complete sense especially the '90s period. I almost was embarrassed FOR Prince lol

but the songs were (are) good!

Yeah that's true.

Quote:

There is a difference between following trends and being influenced by something. But I think the results speak for themselves - reasons, timing etc aside, following trends of synthpop, new wave and electronic music in the early 80s - worked like a fucking charm. Following R&B chart shit like R.Kelly and Usher in the 90s/00s - embarassing, unlistenable turds.

Sometimes i like to put it sharp:

Prince rose above himself in the eighties.

When you listen to his demo's from the seventies you hear a Stevie Wonder copycat, an Earth Wind and fire copycat. A competant musician, but not someone who you would label as some artistic force to be reckoned with.

Somehow in the eighties he seemed to rise far above that: was it the result of him working with people who loved new-wave music (Dez) and helped him incorporate it into his music? Princes music became far more interesting when it became more left-field, with the incorporation of new-wave elements and influences of electronical music (Kraftwerk, Gary Newman).

Was it the result of him working with Wendy and Lisa? According to these ladies Prince offered them dozens of basic-tracks in 1985 and 1986, and they worked out the harmonies and melodies on top of that. Just because they dont get the credits on the sleevenotes, doesnt mean they did not wrote these songs together with Prince.

Was it the result of him achieving his artistic peak in the right time and place? A happy incident?

When i listen to his demo's from the nineties i hear he is turning back to rather predictable, formulaic compositions based on seventies R&B and using synths mostly.

More and more i get the idea that Prince tends to 'play it safe' as an artist: in the eighties there were probably fellow-bandmembers, a personal drive to be 'heard' and a record company who believed in him and gave him the opportunity to flesh out his opportunities. Everything fell into place in that decade.

But The Prince from the '00's seems like an artist and person who is too stubborn and smallminded to rise among his seventies influences, and who praises contemporary R&B nobodies because he thinks he is some R and B elder / statesman, when there once was a time he was more free, and seemed to enjoy expressing himself in his music and lyrics, without giving a damn what colour of skin a certain artist had.

Riverman37 said:

Sometimes i like to put it sharp:

Prince rose above himself in the eighties.

When you listen to his demo's from the seventies you hear a Stevie Wonder copycat, an Earth Wind and fire copycat. A competant musician, but not someone who you would label as some artistic force to be reckoned with.

Somehow in the eighties he seemed to rise far above that: was it the result of him working with people who loved new-wave music (Dez) and helped him incorporate it into his music? Princes music became far more interesting when it became more left-field, with the incorporation of new-wave elements and influences of electronical music (Kraftwerk, Gary Newman).

Was it the result of him working with Wendy and Lisa? According to these ladies Prince offered them dozens of basic-tracks in 1985 and 1986, and they worked out the harmonies and melodies on top of that. Just because they dont get the credits on the sleevenotes, doesnt mean they did not wrote these songs together with Prince.

Was it the result of him achieving his artistic peak in the right time and place? A happy incident?

When i listen to his demo's from the nineties i hear he is turning back to rather predictable, formulaic compositions based on seventies R&B and using synths mostly.

More and more i get the idea that Prince tends to 'play it safe' as an artist: in the eighties there were probably fellow-bandmembers, a personal drive to be 'heard' and a record company who believed in him and gave him the opportunity to flesh out his opportunities. Everything fell into place in that decade.

But The Prince from the '00's seems like an artist and person who is too stubborn and smallminded to rise among his seventies influences, and who praises contemporary R&B nobodies because he thinks he is some R and B elder / statesman, when there once was a time he was more free, and seemed to enjoy expressing himself in his music and lyrics, without giving a damn what colour of skin a certain artist had.

I think he does break out of the 70's old with a few tracks here and there from the 90's till now. Things like the studio version of Days of Wild, to Illusion Coma, to 3121 come to mind as evenbreaking into more alien compositional territory than the 80's peak of popularity.

Sorry ufoclub, i dont really see it.

He came from R and B, he rose above it in the eighties, and did move back to it after that.

Riverman37 said:

1978 - 1979: He followed the trends of the seventies, without offering any distincitive style of his own (he was only promising as an instrumentalist).

1980 - 1984: He was trendsetting 'soundwise', but somewhat censoring himself artistically because of his commercial ambitions.

1985 - 1988: His 'peak period': his creative output became more 'free' and both his music and lyrics showed more depth, subtlety and nuances.

1989 - 1995: a Mish-mash period: he was at one hand trying to go for a more traditional / organic / quasi-live sound with the NPG (going back to 'rootsy' styles like sixties JB-funk, blues, soul and jazz). On the other hand he was still hungry to be commercially recognized, leading to failed attempts of incorporating elements

into his music that just weren't his thing (hip-hop, dance/techno, reggae, new jack swing). His albums werent overall successes anymore, but there were some great songs to be found on most of them.

1996 - 2000: His 'worst period': using a lot of elements from the very soulless 'contemporary R&B' in his music and production styles, Kirky J offering plastic production on his albums, formulaic songwriting and production. A lost artist.

2000 - 2004: Prince seems still 'drifting' and to think following his muse (his muse, or Jehovahs muse?) might help: like he felt, hey, if you dont buy my music anymore now i am an independent artist, i could as well play worn-out jazz-rock from the seventies and sing about Jehovah. Nobody seems to care anymore, so i don't give a shit. Luckily people didnt give a shit anymore.

2004 - 2011: A 'slight' improvement over the period 1996 - 2004, with the emphasis on 'slight': He toned down his JW-message a bit, and tried to focus on more concise songwriting. The albums from this period are mildly entertaining affairs, but nothing more then that. The kind of albums you give a spin for like three times, and then shelve away in your CD-rack. As unsubstantial and inoffensive and shallow as these Rod Stewart 'american songbook' CD's. Combined with live-shows that remind me of some Vegas-act going through the motions, i dont have any hopes whatsoever when it comes to Prince artistically reviving his career in the following years.

I notice a distaste for....

dd edit

[Edited 9/9/11 17:26pm]

Riverman37 said:

Sorry ufoclub, i dont really see it.

He came from R and B, he rose above it in the eighties, and did move back to it after that.

For example the only 2 tracks that seem to break out of old school pop concept on the Purple Rain album are When Doves Cry and I Would Die 4 U. And I don't mean chorus/verse structure, because in that regard they are conventional.

If you break down all the songs on that album into a basic piano arrangement approximation with vocal melody included as a lead line, only those two seem to stand out as something different in terms of sound.

The rest seem more like standard western pop styles of song composition that were voiced in Prince style instrumentation and track levels.

Prince has followed trends like rap and done a lot of things out of insecurity that he would nto be popular any longer. But he really didn't do this until after Lovesexy. The lack of commercial success with that album and tour freaked him out a bit and then he kind of "sold out" with the Batman soundtrack, etc.

FunkiestOne said:

Prince has followed trends like rap and done a lot of things out of insecurity that he would nto be popular any longer.

How do you know this? Isnt it possible he enjoyed the sounds of the day and tried his hat at it?

rdhull said:

FunkiestOne said:

Prince has followed trends like rap and done a lot of things out of insecurity that he would nto be popular any longer.

How do you know this? Isnt it possible he enjoyed the sounds of the day and tried his hat at it?

He hated rap initially. Probably still hates it in a way but only digs the non-cursive elements of it.

It's not so much as following trends, but which trends and how effectively his work translate to that trend.

Early in his career he "incorporated" elements from some of the greats, like The Beatles, James Brown, George Clinton, Hendrix among others but made it totally his own. In the 90's he chased the trends of lesser popular music and artists like Bell Biv Devoe, NKOTB, MJ, Mariah and Madonna.

We know he is better than that. Especially when he fell flat on his face trying to ape them and releasing albums far worse than the cheese he was aping.

I think maybe some fans are just a little disappointed that he took the low road and started stooping so low by releasing albums and chasing cheesy popular trends in music to make a buck.

But just a little. I am not any less of a fan because of his 90's output. I just cringe a little.

Timmy84 said:

rdhull said:

How do you know this? Isnt it possible he enjoyed the sounds of the day and tried his hat at it?

He hated rap initially. Probably still hates it in a way but only digs the non-cursive elements of it.

Im quite aware of what he thought about it intitially. That doesnt mean he still didnt like it and maybe was dismayed with the way it was presented and created at that time. Not to mention jealous of it taking away his reign. Esp since he infused some of it in his Lovesexy release and with Sheila with Krush Groove project etc etc.

He doesnt hate it. Chuck D will tell ya that..and Scrappy Doo or Scrappy D lol

Riverman37 said:

1978 - 1979: He followed the trends of the seventies, without offering any distincitive style of his own (he was only promising as an instrumentalist).

1980 - 1984: He was trendsetting 'soundwise', but somewhat censoring himself artistically because of his commercial ambitions.

1985 - 1988: His 'peak period': his creative output became more 'free' and both his music and lyrics showed more depth, subtlety and nuances.

1989 - 1995: a Mish-mash period: he was at one hand trying to go for a more traditional / organic / quasi-live sound with the NPG (going back to 'rootsy' styles like sixties JB-funk, blues, soul and jazz). On the other hand he was still hungry to be commercially recognized, leading to failed attempts of incorporating elements

into his music that just weren't his thing (hip-hop, dance/techno, reggae, new jack swing). His albums werent overall successes anymore, but there were some great songs to be found on most of them.

1996 - 2000: His 'worst period': using a lot of elements from the very soulless 'contemporary R&B' in his music and production styles, Kirky J offering plastic production on his albums, formulaic songwriting and production. A lost artist.

2000 - 2004: Prince seems still 'drifting' and to think following his muse (his muse, or Jehovahs muse?) might help: like he felt, hey, if you dont buy my music anymore now i am an independent artist, i could as well play worn-out jazz-rock from the seventies and sing about Jehovah. Nobody seems to care anymore, so i don't give a shit. Luckily people didnt give a shit anymore.

2004 - 2011: A 'slight' improvement over the period 1996 - 2004, with the emphasis on 'slight': He toned down his JW-message a bit, and tried to focus on more concise songwriting. The albums from this period are mildly entertaining affairs, but nothing more then that. The kind of albums you give a spin for like three times, and then shelve away in your CD-rack. As unsubstantial and inoffensive and shallow as these Rod Stewart 'american songbook' CD's. Combined with live-shows that remind me of some Vegas-act going through the motions, i dont have any hopes whatsoever when it comes to Prince artistically reviving his career in the following years.

Disagree with comment about not having his own style in the late 70s. His style seems to have started with the 'Prince' album, if you listen to that all his vocal styles and techniques that he has used since seem to be in there....