ohYeeeeeah said:

funkomatic said:

Lol, Jazz without improvisation! It's about time to get some musical education!

[Edited 9/1/11 4:03am]

I've studied music (piano and guitar) for 35 years and you?

If you don't know some parts are totally written in Jazz when it comes to record in a studio, I feel very sorry for you. Of course, real Jazz LIVE is about improvisation. But Prince did not improvise anything at all on this record. If you can't hear nothing is improvised, I'm sorry for the two poor ears you've got to appreciate music.

Do you own the Bekerley Jazz Bible with thousands of Jazz amazing music for Jazz guitar and piano realized by students and teachers? You would understand then that many pro musicians play Jazz note by note like for Classical music parts.

[Edited 9/1/11 5:01am]

It seems as if you need to study even longer to actually get what it's all about!

One of the most important aspects of instrumental Jazz is improvisation. If everything is written down, the concept of Jazz would be completely thrown overboard.

The solos on this record are improvised. Even if not, they should sound like they are.

BTW: Prince can't even read notes!

[Edited 9/1/11 7:11am]

dandeeland said:

Prince is over-rated on this site(which is expected) on guitar. Jesse is the real deal. Prince's solos are the same repetitive tricks over and over. His solos get boring after a while. Don't get me wrong I like Prince but come on with all biased aside, Jesse Johnson smokes him on guitar. Prince can't do what Jesse does. Jesse CAN do what Prince does and he has. Bare My Naked Soul by itself blows away all of Prince's guitar songs combined. Nevermind his live stuff. If you include Jesse live....WHOA!!

[Edited 8/27/11 6:14am]

Ohh lawrd...........

funkomatic said:

ohYeeeeeah said:

I've studied music (piano and guitar) for 35 years and you?

If you don't know some parts are totally written in Jazz when it comes to record in a studio, I feel very sorry for you. Of course, real Jazz LIVE is about improvisation. But Prince did not improvise anything at all on this record. If you can't hear nothing is improvised, I'm sorry for the two poor ears you've got to appreciate music.

Do you own the Bekerley Jazz Bible with thousands of Jazz amazing music for Jazz guitar and piano realized by students and teachers? You would understand then that many pro musicians play Jazz note by note like for Classical music parts.

[Edited 9/1/11 5:01am]

It seems as if you need to study even longer to actually get what it's all about!

One of the most important aspects of instrumental Jazz is improvisation. If everything is written down, the concept of Jazz would be completely thrown overboard.

The solos on this record are improvised. Even if not, they should sound like they are.

BTW: Prince can't even read notes!

[Edited 9/1/11 7:11am]

You are talking bullshit. If you think every pro guitar player improvises on Django Reinhardt's music or Wes Montgomery's and Smith's music, you are fooled big time.

If you had a bit of musical knowledge and ear, you'll ear plenty of covers play exactly note for note in Jazz world out there. Different arrangements obviously. But if you think every jazz musician reinvents every fucking Jazz tune every time it is played, you have a serious problem.

Even live it depends what kind of Jazz you're playing : Big Bands night after night often played the same stuff over and over. It is true that it rarely happened with Weather Report!

Prince plays by ear but he has in mind the whole fucking solos he plays. He records, he rehearses his solos. He tries stuff, goes different directions until he's got his structure. He does not improvise in the studio where everything is thought deeply and rarely totally spontaneous.

I invite you to watch video docs about Davis and Evans working together in the studio to see if not every fucking part is not already written and rehearsed for each musician before being recorded.

That's why there is nothing like Jazz LIVE music where the best jazz musicians can jam, let go and improvise.

Just to finish with you who has clearly never touched an instrument in your life: 100% of the guitar players on this forum would dream to play 50% as well as Prince does on the whole Xenophobia project.

You're going for a totally new topic. What is improvisation? In the end of course nothing is improvised because you just do what you have done hundred times before just in different combinations.

A Jazz player who doesn't go for variety in his solos isn't a Jazz player!

funkomatic said:

You're going for a totally new topic. What is improvisation? In the end of course nothing is improvised because you just do what you have done hundred times before just in different combinations.

A Jazz player who doesn't go for variety in his solos isn't a Jazz player!

I totally agree with you.

Jazz Improvisation requires harmonies knowledge that allow you to go totally different routes and fall on your feet without having mentally built the whole musical scenario. I have never heard Prince do that. Everything he plays is deeply thought. It comes naturally to him because he is a bloody great musician but he does not improvise.

ohYeeeeeah said:

funkomatic said:

You're going for a totally new topic. What is improvisation? In the end of course nothing is improvised because you just do what you have done hundred times before just in different combinations.

A Jazz player who doesn't go for variety in his solos isn't a Jazz player!

I totally agree with you.

Jazz Improvisation requires harmonies knowledge that allow you to go totally different routes and fall on your feet without having mentally built the whole musical scenario. I have never heard Prince do that. Everything he plays is deeply thought. It comes naturally to him because he is a bloody great musician but he does not improvise.

These are contradictory ideas. Something is either deeply thought or spontaneous. It can't be both.

To me it sounds like prince is mixing improvisation together with "written parts". Eric Leeds said himself that Prince was more spontanous than most of the jazz artists he had worked with. And Eric Leeds is by far one of the most honest artists Prince has worked with based on his interviews. I believe most of his guitar solos are 90% planned, and 10% improvised. THe attitude live is usually matching the energy of the band and crowd. It's should not be a problem for him to improvise. He knows how each sound on the guitar is produced. If he is not improvising, he must be much more than a genuis for planning each and every one of the parts he plays on any instrument on his earlier 80s records. How they sound so live and spontanous, connecting each instrument togethera as a couple making love.

I have loved Jesse since the debut of the Time. I met him twice in the 80 and got an autographed album. I have all of his albums and a few live boots. I even have a Jese Johnson's Revue T shirt (that is tight as hell now).

But until I see and hear him put it down like Prince did at the Rock n Roll HOF, I have to stay with Prince as the best guitarist for my money.

Genesia said:

ohYeeeeeah said:

I totally agree with you.

Jazz Improvisation requires harmonies knowledge that allow you to go totally different routes and fall on your feet without having mentally built the whole musical scenario. I have never heard Prince do that. Everything he plays is deeply thought. It comes naturally to him because he is a bloody great musician but he does not improvise.

These are contradictory ideas. Something is either deeply thought or spontaneous. It can't be both.

What comes naturally to him is to come up with great melodies, a song and and a solo structure for instance. He hears the music and can replicate anything he has in his mind. It doesn't make him a great improvisor.

Again he doesn't have the harmonies knowledge to go all other the place in a Jazz tune instinctively.

ohYeeeeeah said:

funkomatic said:

Lol, Jazz without improvisation! It's about time to get some musical education!

[Edited 9/1/11 4:03am]

I've studied music (piano and guitar) for 35 years and you?

If you don't know some parts are totally written in Jazz when it comes to record in a studio, I feel very sorry for you. Of course, real Jazz LIVE is about improvisation. But Prince did not improvise anything at all on this record. If you can't hear nothing is improvised, I'm sorry for the two poor ears you've got to appreciate music.

Do you own the Bekerley Jazz Bible with thousands of Jazz amazing music for Jazz guitar and piano realized by students and teachers? You would understand then that many pro musicians play Jazz note by note like for Classical music parts.

[Edited 9/1/11 5:01am]

So basically what you're actually saying here is that your opinion is no more valid nor acceptable than the "bar band" orger you were laughing at because like him to paraphrase the other orger; you need to be in a REAL band and do something cool like Prince to have any say about his playing. Positive or negative.

MajesticOne89 said:

ohYeeeeeah said:

I've studied music (piano and guitar) for 35 years and you?

If you don't know some parts are totally written in Jazz when it comes to record in a studio, I feel very sorry for you. Of course, real Jazz LIVE is about improvisation. But Prince did not improvise anything at all on this record. If you can't hear nothing is improvised, I'm sorry for the two poor ears you've got to appreciate music.

Do you own the Bekerley Jazz Bible with thousands of Jazz amazing music for Jazz guitar and piano realized by students and teachers? You would understand then that many pro musicians play Jazz note by note like for Classical music parts.

[Edited 9/1/11 5:01am]

So basically what you're actually saying here is that your opinion is no more valid nor acceptable than the "bar band" orger you were laughing at because like him to paraphrase the other orger; you need to be in a REAL band and do something cool like Prince to have any say about his playing. Positive or negative.

Your post makes as much sense as my dog's farts.

But what I don't think I have (contrary to our bar for fun guitar player or bar guitar player for fun) said I thought Prince's stuff was "easy", that he was "sloppy on guitar", that listening to him made me "cringe".

Contrary to our "genius" bar guitar player, I would love to be 20% as gifted as Prince is.

ohYeeeeeah said:

Tremolina said:

lmao, yeah when he was 15!

Then he grew to become a superstar and one of the most respected guitar players in popular music. Almost 40 years of playing the guitar live and on record.

Then comes this guitar player "for fun" in bar bands.

As a guitarist who occasionally plays in bars, I gotta say you're missing my point. Everyone plays on the bar level at some point in their careers. Doesn't mean it's all they play or that they never play for "names" in fancier venues. But there's no shame in it. When you're gigging, work is work. And, particularly during a recession, you're happy to be working. Because a lot of cats aren't.

I can see why folks give the nod to Jesse. More often with his playing than with Prince's, I find the questions arise related to technique. With Prince's playing, recreation is tougher because of the use of his effects gear (he uses tons of effects); this was not always the case. At his peak, P was a monster.

Prince is really, really great. Jesse's a flat-out beast.

This P vs Jesse stuff will live on forever. And I think that's a a good thing, actually.

Adisa said:

ThreadBare said:

Adisa said:

This P vs Jesse stuff will live on forever. And I think that's a a good thing, actually.

If you say Jesse's better, the Titans go to the playoffs.

I agree Jesse is better and that's just based off the stuff I've seen of him on youtube with The Time and his solo gigs. It's no big deal to me.

Adisa said:

Adisa said:

ThreadBare said:

Adisa said: If you say Jesse's better, the Titans go to the playoffs.

I agree Jesse is better and that's just based off the stuff I've seen of him on youtube with The Time and his solo gigs. It's no big deal to me.

Ah ok. Thanks for your expertise.

ohYeeeeeah said:

Adisa said:

I agree Jesse is better and that's just based off the stuff I've seen of him on youtube with The Time and his solo gigs. It's no big deal to me.

Ah ok. Thanks for your expertise.

It doesn't require expertise. And for what it's worth, I can walk in just about any local bar, church, or recording studio where I live and find guitarists that are better than Prince. It's no big deal to me. It doesn't mean that he doesn't rock, or that I don't enjoy his work.

Oh, and OhYeeeeah, it also doesn't matter how much of an expert you think you are either. There are people out there who will hear your playing and go if it's not teeir cup of tea. And will then say, "Wow Andy Allo, Justin Timberlake, and Madonna are better on guitar than this guy." Just ordinary people with ordinary opinions...

Adisa said:

Oh, and OhYeeeeah, it also doesn't matter how much of an expert you think you are either. There are people out there who will hear your playing and go if it's not teeir cup of tea. And will then say, "Wow Andy Allo, Justin Timberlake, and Madonna are better on guitar than this guy." Just ordinary people with ordinary opinions...

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Adisa said:

Oh, and OhYeeeeah, it also doesn't matter how much of an expert you think you are either. There are people out there who will hear your playing and go if it's not teeir cup of tea. And will then say, "Wow Andy Allo, Justin Timberlake, and Madonna are better on guitar than this guy." Just ordinary people with ordinary opinions...

It's true, though. It's one thing to listen to music as a musician, but it's another tolisten as a fan! As a fan, I thought Prince was untouchable on his instruments. But the more I learned as a musician it was like I didn't mean that he isn't great , it just means that what he does musically can be easily learned and easily duplicated. I am VERY much a novice on guitar ( I really suck! ), and a few years ago even I was muddling my way through the WDC, PR, Joy in Repetition, and Let's Go Crazy solos in the studio to the point where thopse around me were going, "Dude you can play Prince, you must really rock!" Maybe that came form many years of listening, but you get the point. It was complicated, it was just, oh play these patterns in these scales and key signatures, just like OhYeeeeeaaah is saying about Jesse. Maybe our ears are just individualy wired to pick up on certain things...that's cool too.

minneapolisFunq said:

BlaqueKnight!, save us!

"They're both pretty?"

Adisa said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

It's true, though. It's one thing to listen to music as a musician, but it's another tolisten as a fan! As a fan, I thought Prince was untouchable on his instruments. But the more I learned as a musician it was like I didn't mean that he isn't great , it just means that what he does musically can be easily learned and easily duplicated. I am VERY much a novice on guitar ( I really suck! ), and a few years ago even I was muddling my way through the WDC, PR, Joy in Repetition, and Let's Go Crazy solos in the studio to the point where thopse around me were going, "Dude you can play Prince, you must really rock!" Maybe that came form many years of listening, but you get the point. It was complicated, it was just, oh play these patterns in these scales and key signatures, just like OhYeeeeeaaah is saying about Jesse. Maybe our ears are just individualy wired to pick up on certain things...that's cool too.

Seriously I hope you know there is a difference between playing the right notes and actually playing it well. And Prince is like Santana in the way of playing "easy" shit better than those random studio guys you are talking about. Prince has usually "written" semi difficult solos and has been using pretty ordinary chords. He cares much more about the feel and sometimes a remorable melody, than to wank of the guitar in meaningless ways just for technical showoff. If you hear a Prince song live, he is producing the whole got damn song with his guitar. I know a bunch of guitar players that are super technical, but lack som of that confidense in delivering true emotion with the instrument. This is something 95% of the super technical players lack. Classically and jazz trained guitar players are often bored when they run out of new chords to play. They are bored when it looks boring on sheet. While Prince is bored when somebody aint feeling the music that is supposed to be played.

^It really sounds as if you're so much into Prince that you can't appreciate what other people do have to offer. That's actually a problem a lot of fanatics have. They tend to internalise the propagandised qualities of their favourite artist that much that they go against everything different.

funkomatic said:

^It really sounds as if you're so much into Prince that you can't appreciate what other people do have to offer. That's actually a problem a lot of fanatics have. They tend to internalise the propagandised qualities of their favourite artist that much that they go against everything different.

Hey, take it easy now. I'm not a fanatic. I appreciate alot of different music and am a music fan, not the shortened of fanatic to any artist. And even though Prince has alot og great music, he has also imo produced alot of crap too.

I'm only commenting on guitarplaying now, and I'm not saying that Prince is the best on this globe. Have I ever said so? Actually sometimes he is working his princey guitar clichés far too much through one concert while Shelby is singing gospel music and fucking up the great songs, and I heard the last album by Jesse Johnson. He is an incredible guitar player.

I think I just favour Prince way of playing to jesse johnsons way of playing. I kinda feel like Jesse is a bit too random sometimes. And there is actually a difference between random and improvisation. Random is not leading anywhere, while improvisation will lead somewhere if one is actually listening while playing. them. We need them both though. They're both pretty good at imitating eachother, but none of them can replace eachother.

And my comment was pointing more towards random technical beasts referring to the post before me saying that most of princes solos are easy to play be semi good guitar players. If he says he sucks at playing, but make his solos sound as good as prince, then it his own ear or the ear of those hearing him isn't trained that well. And it's a difference what your friends tell you, and if they'd actually buy the record if you release one and didn't know you.

Adisa said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

It's true, though. It's one thing to listen to music as a musician, but it's another tolisten as a fan! As a fan, I thought Prince was untouchable on his instruments. But the more I learned as a musician it was like I didn't mean that he isn't great , it just means that what he does musically can be easily learned and easily duplicated. I am VERY much a novice on guitar ( I really suck! ), and a few years ago even I was muddling my way through the WDC, PR, Joy in Repetition, and Let's Go Crazy solos in the studio to the point where thopse around me were going, "Dude you can play Prince, you must really rock!" Maybe that came form many years of listening, but you get the point. It was complicated, it was just, oh play these patterns in these scales and key signatures, just like OhYeeeeeaaah is saying about Jesse. Maybe our ears are just individualy wired to pick up on certain things...that's cool too.

I have rarely read some much bullshit in the same post.

So basically you're telling here you can learn and duplicate easily what Prince plays. Have you listened to the Montreux's bootleg?

You can play this solo on When I lay my hands on you easily. You can kill it like on All the Critics love you in Montreux. You can play Spanish Castle Magic like Prince. You can fly on Stratus as well. You can can play what he plays on A large room with no light.

You can master the sound, the effects like Prince does.

You can move from Funk, to Rock, to Pop, to bluesy stuff from one song to another in no time.

You can play rhythm guitar like Prince as well.

Man, you're a bloody genius.

I know many pros out there who play incredibly well and who are in awe when they talk about Prince and the way he plays the guitar. They will tell you like me the amazing guitar player he is: timing, technique, sound control, versatility, dexterity and the most amazing gift that JJ will never have: the touch, the emotion. This is a gift from God.

And you tell us you suck at playing the guitar but still it is SO EASY.

Nobody told you JJ was a bad guitar player. What I'm telling you is that I know many fast players like him who play furiously fast their scales. He has a great technique. But I prefer a million times BB King who's got the ear to play only the right notes in a solo with emotion. This is a billion times more difficult for a pro than playing like a madman your scales.

That's where you're mistaken. Going straight to the point, "purifying" the way you play an instrument, the obsession of timing, touching people's heart is bloody difficult. Coming up and recording a tune like When doves cry based on a drum and synths is a zillion times more difficult than adding one layer to another when you're a good musician.

Whether you like it or not, Prince is a fucking genius when he comes to playing music.

Watch BB King to see precisely what I mean. This is the answer to all this fucking "debate". No showing off. Just the right notes. Incredible touch. Genius.

ohYeeeeeah said:

Watch BB King to see precisely what I mean. This is the answer to all this fucking "debate". No showing off. Just the right notes. Incredible touch. Genius.

damn, that's what I call SOUL

ohYeeeeeah said:

What I'm telling you is...

And what I'm telling you is that it really doesn't matter what you are telling us.

Your credentials and who and what you thinkl you know are irrlelevant to this discussion. We are sharing opinions and speculating about musical influence and what's appealing to the ear and mind. Some say Jesse for whatever reason, some say Prince and Joe Blow at the local bar.