Of course I know it was to make him more "hip" & gain more black fans [Money obviously]. But damn, after hearing those tracks being recorded, I would have scrapped that whole idea....That did nothing for his career imo. "Gett Off" was a hit without Tony M's "rapping" input anyway [I hope no one brings up his little speech parts in the hook either ]. Of all that Prince has done, the inclusion of rap in his music is the worse imho. To me, if he wanted rap, why didn't he try to get already established rappers to be on some of his songs or something [it still would have sucked though ]????

Take all of the rapping crap verses & songs off "D & P", you'd have a far more consistant album imho

...oh & the "Gameboyz"..... .....

Tittypants said:

Of course I know it was to make him more "hip" & gain more black fans [Money obviously]. But damn, after hearing those tracks being recorded, I would have scrapped that whole idea....That did nothing for his career imo. "Gett Off" was a hit without Tony M's "rapping" input anyway [I hope no one brings up his little speech parts in the hook either ]. Of all that Prince has done, the inclusion of rap in his music is the worse imho. To me, if he wanted rap, why didn't he try to get already established rappers to be on some of his songs or something [it still would have sucked though ]????

Take all of the rapping crap verses & songs off "D & P", you'd have a far more consistant album imho

...oh & the "Gameboyz"..... .....

I agree. The album is great, but it would have been superb without Tony Mierda.

I don't know all of Prince's music but when I think of the small amount of "talk with music," that Prince has done, I just believe that Prince has "showcased," his well rounded ability to put out any kind of sound that could be classified in any particular genre. I think it has been a tasteful amount.

SodaShoes said:

I don't know all of Prince's music but when I think of the small amount of "talk with music," that Prince has done, I just believe that Prince has "showcased," his well rounded ability to put out any kind of sound that could be classified in any particular genre. I think it has been a tasteful amount.

Jughead, The Flow and Loose! are abominations, but some of his rap songs are tolerable, and there's a small few I actually like

I guess Prince wanted to appeal to a different audience or just experiment, and his head was too far up his arse to realise that it sucked.

I am generally hating most rap/ hiphop "music",

but, ehhhhhhhh....

I liked what Tony M did to Gett Off and Sexy MF........

While i don't like what Tony M contributed, i actually like a few of the rap tracks, Face Down, Now, Days Of Wild, Race and Pussy Control. I think he rapped better than the rappers he had on his records (apart from Chuck D)

v

[Edited 8/26/11 9:01am]

Something MUST HAVE truly "possessed" him as he went from putting down rap on "Dead On It" to using it quite unsuccessfully on many songs. IMHO it was the most terrible move (musically) that he has ever done/will do!

Prince has ALWAYS incorporated new trends of popular/current music into his own brand of music. Incorporating rap/hip hop maybe raised some eyebrows because of the age and tastes of a portion of his fan base. Let's be honest, just because you got into Prince because of his rock/guitar side doesn't mean you could get with the funk. But that's on you, not Prince.

All in all, I just wish Prince would have rapped himself and not used Tony M.

[Edited 8/26/11 11:28am]

I think Prince's own raps are cool!

Dead on It rocks and love the rap in Days Of Wild and Acknowledge Me

TheFreakerFantastic said:

I think Prince's own raps are cool!

Dead on It rocks and love the rap in Days Of Wild and Acknowledge Me

I agree as to those songs and a few others. But in "Push," when he keeps saying "you don't want me on the mic," I agree with him. I cringe at his rap in that song.

I think that people often overestimate the influence of rap and hip-hop on Princes output from the nineties. On Diamonds and Pearls, Symbol and the the Goldnigga album, the rap-element is quite obvious, but certainly not on all of the songs.

It didnt help him, that he did choose such a shitty rapper like Tony M. of course. And i also agree with others here that Princes own raps aren't that bad: his style is more like talk-singing, then pure rap and on some songs it works fine with me.

But take the songs Daddy Pop, Jughead and Push of the Diamonds and Pearls album, and you have his best 90's album, better (more diverse and playfull) then The Gold Experience IMO.

What buggers me more is why he did choose to incorporate plastic 'contemporary R&B' so much into his music in the nineties. IMO far more annoying, then the occasonial hip-hop / rap-track here and there.

It did start with the new-jack swing elements on Graffti Bridge, but to me it really got out of hand during the mid-nineties, with the plastic, blatant Kirky J. production on Emancipation, followed by that on New Power Soul and Rave.

And unfortunately it didnt stop in the nineties, he continued this kind of crap with songs like Incense and Candles, Mr. Goodnight, much of the MPLsound-album and some songs on 20ten.

Riverman37 said:

I think that people often overestimate the influence of rap and hip-hop on Princes output from the nineties. On Diamonds and Pearls, Symbol and the the Goldnigga album, the rap-element is quite obvious, but certainly not on all of the songs.

It didnt help him, that he did choose such a shitty rapper like Tony M. of course. And i also agree with others here that Princes own raps aren't that bad: his style is more like talk-singing, then pure rap and on some songs it works fine with me.

But take the songs Daddy Pop, Jughead and Push of the Diamonds and Pearls album, and you have his best 90's album, better (more diverse and playfull) then The Gold Experience IMO.

What buggers me more is why he did choose to incorporate plastic 'contemporary R&B' so much into his music in the nineties. IMO far more annoying, then the occasonial hip-hop / rap-track here and there.

It did start with the new-jack swing elements on Graffti Bridge, but to me it really got out of hand during the mid-nineties, with the plastic, blatant Kirky J. production on Emancipation, followed by that on New Power Soul and Rave.

And unfortunately it didnt stop in the nineties, he continued this kind of crap with songs like Incense and Candles, Mr. Goodnight, much of the MPLsound-album and some songs on 20ten.

I agree with this. All the plastic R&B was substantial to the records you mention, while rap was only an accesory. It seems unfair to me that Diamonds And Pearls is remembered for being the album in which Prince introduced rap and Tony Mierda, being an album with so many styles and so many superbly crafted pop tunes.

I agree Javi.

Take away Daddy Pop, Jughead and Push, and Diamonds and Pearls is a great album IMO, bookended by two longer, a bit more experimental tracks: Thunder and Live 4 Love, and filled in between with splendid songwriting and composing:

- Diamonds and Pearls (him taking 'revenge' for the Arms of Orion, delivering a sappy ballad but without being too sappy, its counterbalanced by the drumsound and the intricate bridge)

- Cream (taking T-rex to the nineties in a slick, poppy way)

- Strollin (jazz-lite pop, but definitely well composed)

- Get Off (a catchy, commercial, but not TOO much.. slice of funk/pop, there really is some grit in the delivery)

- Willing and able (my favourite of the album, impassiondd vocal delivery, perfectly mixes traditional R&B with south-african Jive-music, would have even be better with real horns).

- Walk dont walk (silly little pop song, with campy carhorn-effects, but very melodic and harmonic)

- Money don't matter tonight (again not very original: a nod to seventies Stevie Wonder, but again a very strong, well rounded composition).

- Insationable (Prince seduction-ballad by the book, but very well executed).

As a lover of singer-songwriter material and 'perfect pop' songs, strong compositions and good songwriting are important to me. And i recognize that Prince is doing his best on Diamonds and Pearls.

I agree, Diamonds and Pearls was 'used' by Prince as a sort of commercial comeback, and the music and arrangements are defenitely not as innovative as during the eighties, but take away these three rap-influenced tracks, and you are left with a masterclass in songwriting, Prince showing that he could deliver quality by following more 'traditional' songwriting, instead of trying to cram 3 or more musical styles in a single song.

Riverman37 said:

I agree Javi.

Take away Daddy Pop, Jughead and Push, and Diamonds and Pearls is a great album IMO, bookended by two longer, a bit more experimental tracks: Thunder and Live 4 Love, and filled in between with splendid songwriting and composing:

- Diamonds and Pearls (him taking 'revenge' for the Arms of Orion, delivering a sappy ballad but without being too sappy, its counterbalanced by the drumsound and the intricate bridge)

- Cream (taking T-rex to the nineties in a slick, poppy way)

- Strollin (jazz-lite pop, but definitely well composed)

- Get Off (a catchy, commercial, but not TOO much.. slice of funk/pop, there really is some grit in the delivery)

- Willing and able (my favourite of the album, impassiondd vocal delivery, perfectly mixes traditional R&B with south-african Jive-music, would have even be better with real horns).

- Walk dont walk (silly little pop song, with campy carhorn-effects, but very melodic and harmonic)

- Money don't matter tonight (again not very original: a nod to seventies Stevie Wonder, but again a very strong, well rounded composition).

- Insationable (Prince seduction-ballad by the book, but very well executed).

As a lover of singer-songwriter material and 'perfect pop' songs, strong compositions and good songwriting are important to me. And i recognize that Prince is doing his best on Diamonds and Pearls.

I agree, Diamonds and Pearls was 'used' by Prince as a sort of commercial comeback, and the music and arrangements are defenitely not as innovative as during the eighties, but take away these three rap-influenced tracks, and you are left with a masterclass in songwriting, Prince showing that he could deliver quality by following more 'traditional' songwriting, instead of trying to cram 3 or more musical styles in a single song.

Many fans criticize the album for being too commercial and not innovative enough, but I think about it in these terms, and I found it difficult to find another Prince album with such a collection of splendid tunes. Like you, I'm also a lover of perfect pop songs (actually, my favourite Prince tune is Raspberry Beret) and carefully written and executed pieces, and Diamonds And Pearls is superb at this. I like the analysis you've made. I also put Willing And Able among my favourites, but I'd choose Money Don't Matter 2night as my number 1.

I even think Daddy Pop and Push are not that bad. And, while I hate Jughead as most orgers do, I love Gangster Glam and think it would have been a good subtitute on the album.

In terms of compositions and songwriting it pisses all over Come, Lotusflower and 20ten IMO.