When you look back on it, do you think anything released after his [fallout] deal with WB would've made THAT much bread? He went on Oprah to push "Emancipation", & it did okay. [I still believe if that album would've been released as 1 disc, it would have sold better. I think some people may have been overwhelmed by it. Plus, he released two other albums that same year]. Everything else released after didn't make any real impact on the listeners [as in terms to full albums or sales in the 90's]...

What do you think he would've released on WB if that deal never fell through? I'm not buying that Most of the stuff that came out in the late 90's would have been released if he'd stayed....

Tittypants said:

When you look back on it, do you think anything released after his [fallout] deal with WB would've made THAT much bread? He went on Oprah to push "Emancipation", & it did okay. [I still believe if that album would've been released as 1 disc, it would have sold better. I think some people may have been overwhelmed by it. Plus, he released two other albums that same year]. Everything else released after didn't make any real impact on the listeners [as in terms to full albums or sales in the 90's]...

What do you think he would've released on WB if that deal never fell through? I'm not buying that Most of the stuff that came out in the late 90's would have been released if he'd stayed....

he is gemini and does whatever he wants...

myloveis4ever said:

Tittypants said:

When you look back on it, do you think anything released after his [fallout] deal with WB would've made THAT much bread? He went on Oprah to push "Emancipation", & it did okay. [I still believe if that album would've been released as 1 disc, it would have sold better. I think some people may have been overwhelmed by it. Plus, he released two other albums that same year]. Everything else released after didn't make any real impact on the listeners [as in terms to full albums or sales in the 90's]...

What do you think he would've released on WB if that deal never fell through? I'm not buying that Most of the stuff that came out in the late 90's would have been released if he'd stayed....

he is gemini and does whatever he wants...

So pretty much you think his career would've still sucked then?

I think that as an artist that WB contract was a part of what tortured him and that in turn caused him to react with creative brilliance...

ever since he "won" his freedom, or emancipation, from WB he's produced a whole bunch of mediocre tunes...

you can feel him reaching for it but he never really gets close to the SOTT/Lovesexy era...

his experimentations with hip-hop influences (Tony whatshisnamer) and jazzy stuff (TRC ) just never quite seem to get there...

but... I'm a Prince fan so what-the-fuck-do- - kno...

RenHoek said:

I think that as an artist that WB contract was a part of what tortured him and that in turn caused him to react with creative brilliance...

ever since he "won" his freedom, or emancipation, from WB he's produced a whole bunch of mediocre tunes...

you can feel him reaching for it but he never really gets close to the SOTT/Lovesexy era...

his experimentations with hip-hop influences (Tony whatshisnamer) and jazzy stuff (TRC ) just never quite seem to get there...

but... I'm a Prince fan so what-the-fuck-do- - kno...

I applaud you for even answering this thread with a legitimate response. I've always wondered how his music would've been if the whole "slave" thing never happened. People can respond to threads about whether or not his hair is fake or real, or what he smells like, but not this type of thread....

the numbers he did moving 8+million on "purple rain" with wb's,

fail in comparison 2 the $ p made distributing 250,000 units on his own..

and that says what..?..

The deal was a bad decision looking back.

Timmy84 said:

The deal was a bad decision looking back.

I think so. I do think Prince made more money after WB. But the music is worst too....

Tittypants said:

Timmy84 said:

The deal was a bad decision looking back.

I think so. I do think Prince made more money after WB. But the music is worst too....

thats only your opinion of his music but i think he has released alot of great music some even better than his warner days.the music industry has changed so much since prince left warner and to judge him so harshly is just wrong

Jusme4U said:

the numbers he did moving 8+million on "purple rain" with wb's,

fail in comparison 2 the $ p made distributing 250,000 units on his own..

and that says what..?..

That Purple Rain was considered to be the far better album and the popularity backs that up.

Jusme4U said:

the numbers he did moving 8+million on "purple rain" with wb's,

fail in comparison 2 the $ p made distributing 250,000 units on his own..

and that says what..?..

it begs to ask what metric are you using?

are you accounting for changes in technology and distribution?

are you accounting for a much broader demographic (my kids love Prince!)

----------

what I'd really like to know is the quality of his last five albums any match for the SOTT/Lovesexy/Parade TRIFECTA??

At the very least, I think if he stayed with Warner's his writting would have been slightly different, since the obstacle he percieved Warner's to be, would fuel different creative vibes than his "freedom" gave him. But he didn't stay at Warner's and over the years he's chipped away all creative obstacles until (I guess) the only obstacle he had left before he was "free" was his own fans and his own history of recordings.

So .. speculating how his records would do in sales, had he stayed with Warner's, is somewhat kinda nonsense. He wouldn't have made Emancipation, he wouldn't have made Rave, or anything since. He would have been in a different head space, his limitations would have been another type of limitations and so on.

The only thing remaining that I find interesting, is whether or not the quality of his music and albums would have been the same, better or worse. I personally think his output would have been slightly better, given that Warner's "dared" to "critique" his output - something I think made Prince a better artist back in the days.

Oh .. and I think that regardless of the quality of Prince's output in the 1990s, that his popularity would have taken a dip. Someone like Madonna or Michael Jackson might be able to keep the popularity going for decades, but both of those used the neat trick of "going away" in between albums - make people hungry all over again. With Prince the public hardly ever get to swallow before he's serving you a new dish .. and in the 1990's I personally think the public was full.

Jusme4U said:

the numbers he did moving 8+million on "purple rain" with wb's,

fail in comparison 2 the $ p made distributing 250,000 units on his own..

and that says what..?..

Well, besides the obvious of PR being a great album, having a money machine and a motion picture and the zeitgeist all aligned behind it - PR is also the EXCEPTION to the rule in Prince's career. Using it as a yard stick will always lead to disappointment.

He would have certainly been more 'popular and visible', but whether that would translate into better music, I doubt very much. With hindsight, I think Prince sees this decision as a masterstroke judging by where the music industry has ended up. Heavily fragmented, and even more focused on revenue over artistic quality and longevity.

Financially he's much better off, and after seeing him at Hop Farm, I'd say he's a lot happier than he would have been 'under contract'.

He's also consistently pushing the agenda of giving performers a greater share of the cake, so I say more power to him.

[Edited 8/5/11 7:13am]

Staying with WB most certainly *would* have encouraged better released music in at least one respect - he couldn't release music willy nilly, he would have been allowed no more than one album a year and I believe Prince would have wanted it to count. He would have been more particular about what was chosen.

It's often been said that Prince needs a good editor.

But...

said Prince is a good editor.

Timmy84 said:

The deal was a bad decision looking back.

It was from the get-go.

Prince should have never gone for all that advance money, which wasn't even that great as it was made out to be either. He should have told WB, as soon as they came up with that 100M figure:

If you can offer me that, you can also offer me my masters back.

Thank you very much, and here you have a one/two album deal with a standard advance to continue our relationship.

What would have happened THEN?

[Edited 8/6/11 11:08am]

Tremolina said:

Timmy84 said:

The deal was a bad decision looking back.

It was from the get-go.

Prince should have never gone for all that advance money, which wasn't even that great as it was made out to be either. He should have told WB, as soon as they came up with that 100M figure:

If you can offer me that, you can also offer me my masters back.

It wasn't necesarrily a bad deal but the problem is it required Prince to *focus* on each album as he had done for D&P. Obviously, Prince's bravado got the better of him.

As soon as he signed it, he went back to his idiosyncratic ways of picking oddball singles, focusing on side acts, growing bored and trying to release new music while there was already a new album to promote... and then blamed his failure on others (as is typical).

Prince wasn't concerned about his masters at that point. It was only when he was trying to get away, and realizing that his older music might be worth more than his new releases, that the masters suddenly became important.

It should be noted that Prince *still* wants those advances. He obviously feels he deserves them just for turning up with an album in hand.

jtfolden said:

Tremolina said:

It was from the get-go.

Prince should have never gone for all that advance money, which wasn't even that great as it was made out to be either. He should have told WB, as soon as they came up with that 100M figure:

If you can offer me that, you can also offer me my masters back.

It wasn't necesarrily a bad deal but the problem is it required Prince to *focus* on each album as he had done for D&P. Obviously, Prince's bravado got the better of him.

As soon as he signed it, he went back to his idiosyncratic ways of picking oddball singles, focusing on side acts, growing bored and trying to release new music while there was already a new album to promote... and then blamed his failure on others (as is typical).

Prince wasn't concerned about his masters at that point. It was only when he was trying to get away, and realizing that his older music might be worth more than his new releases, that the masters suddenly became important.

It should be noted that Prince *still* wants those advances. He obviously feels he deserves them just for turning up with an album in hand.

True, which is also why he took the 100M deal (I guess).

However, despite all of Prince's love for money and "idosyncratic ways", there was a lot more going on at that time and I wouldn't be so sure if it wasn't already about the 80's masters too by then. Not reportedly perhabs, but such a matter is (or at least should be) always a serious issue, especially in these kind of big deals ( because rights=money).

The deal was apparantly also sort of a continuation of the Paisley Park label joint venture they had going on, with WB footing the bill and Prince more or less controlling it de facto as some private playground. Joint ventures typically are used by big music companies with huge loads of cash that want to do business with a smaller party, which however is not so willing to give up all its rights and be left with merely an (perhabs major or not) advance and/or some royalties. So they tell them (or better yet, not): here is a joint venture deal. You will co-own your stuff, while you run the show and we pretty much pay for everything you want to do. Just as long as you are selling tho! If not, we will pull the plug and take as much as we can and want to, while we leave you with the last bills to pay.

I don't know really and I may be way off on this and Prince knew damn well every single pitfall and detail of this deal, while the reasons for him to get out of this were completely different, but the entire thing (especially how fast Prince wanted to get out of it and the MAJOR risks for his carreer he took to make that happen, while staying out of such deals ever since) reeks of Prince first THINKING he really got a good deal by getting loads of advances AND co-ownership, but then somehow realising, after he fell for the money, that he was still as fucked as ever.

[Edited 8/6/11 17:20pm]

Cravens said:

Oh .. and I think that regardless of the quality of Prince's output in the 1990s, that his popularity would have taken a dip. Someone like Madonna or Michael Jackson might be able to keep the popularity going for decades, but both of those used the neat trick of "going away" in between albums - make people hungry all over again. With Prince the public hardly ever get to swallow before he's serving you a new dish .. and in the 1990's I personally think the public was full.

This is very true I think.

^ but shouldn't we (as fans) actually be happy that Prince kpet on dishing out new music?

Something Prince raved about too in those years...

Cravens said:

Oh .. and I think that regardless of the quality of Prince's output in the 1990s, that his popularity would have taken a dip. Someone like Madonna or Michael Jackson might be able to keep the popularity going for decades, but both of those used the neat trick of "going away" in between albums - make people hungry all over again. With Prince the public hardly ever get to swallow before he's serving you a new dish .. and in the 1990's I personally think the public was full.

Madonna and Michael used outside songwriters and producers that would make sure that at least one or two songs would have a radio hit. Prince hasn't always worked on his projects with "hit single" in mind.

the prince fans who crush on prince just want prince to be popular again, and rich

the other prince fans want some of that good music again

when prince left WB his focus changed from music that could appeal to the most people, to a deal that he could make more money on with less sales ... its unfortunate that prince got lazier instead of smarter. financially a smart person wants to do less for more money, and that is fine and good but the smartness also has to apply to the art created. i would gladly spend 30 to 50 dollars on a single prince cd if the music was actually getting mindblowingly better .. as is i don't even want to spend 3 bucks on a triple cd because it turns into a waste of 3 hours of my life. instead prince dumbed down his music and gave us throw aways and outtakes from better records and really sounded like he was going for the douche bag demographic .. his lyrics just took a huge lazy slide. not a smart move or even a move that took much effort on his part. perhaps when prince took a fuck you i dont care attitude toward WB it spilled over into the actual music as well.

i would like to fantasize that had prince stayed with WB prince would feel shame for the pop sell out style of sex symbol and diamonds and pearls, and try to produce something for the critics so he could get a little credibility again

i wonder if WB pressured him to collaborate or add rap to produce more marketable music, or if these were prince own ideas?

given the following years these seem to be prince ideas and perhaps wb just went along with the rap crap because rap was getting popular

either way i like to think that the huge critical machine of WB provided at least a little fire under prince ass to deliver the real good goods .. the 100 million deal interestingly enough, placed all the pressure on prince .. he only got the big bucks if his records sold a respectable amount, which they did not. perhaps prince destroyed his career because he couldn't handle the humiliation of failing if he actaully tried. prince did not try at all, every single wb record since the deal was phoned in, outtakes, or just plain clearly not marketable to the wide range needed to break thru platinum sales .. you might sell beautiful girl to ur grandma but she's not gonna buy pussy control .. and you need to appeal to a lot of people to get platinum sales .. especially if you are prince because hes old and he doesn't smoke pot anymore and nobody young gives a shit about him.

I think prince was on the right track with "the most beautiful girl" and "love sign". These 2 songs had the making of a platinum record for sure. With enough warner brother pressure and fearless song deletion we could have had an album with

love sign

dolphin

slave

come on

count the days

the one (npgnusicclubmix)

dig u better dead

dark

let it go

the most beautiful girl in the world (mustang mix)

dalsh327 said:

Madonna and Michael used outside songwriters and producers that would make sure that at least one or two songs would have a radio hit. Prince hasn't always worked on his projects with "hit single" in mind.

I know people like to pretend that Prince doesn't/didn't care about charts but this has only rarely been true, imo. Virtually all his releases seem to feature at least one (or more) tracks that appear crafted for mainstream radio acceptance. The bulk of his work, in fact. Sure, he experiments, but he's always had an eye on the charts.

jtfolden said:

dalsh327 said:

Madonna and Michael used outside songwriters and producers that would make sure that at least one or two songs would have a radio hit. Prince hasn't always worked on his projects with "hit single" in mind.

I know people like to pretend that Prince doesn't/didn't care about charts but this has only rarely been true, imo. Virtually all his releases seem to feature at least one (or more) tracks that appear crafted for mainstream radio acceptance. The bulk of his work, in fact. Sure, he experiments, but he's always had an eye on the charts.

defo man, i remember Alan Leeds saying in an interview on the org that Prince would have the song, the video and concept all in his head, so many ideas b4 theyd even done anything..he was 4 sure interested in his position in the charts, and as you say it may have declined over the years and now i truly believe that he dosent care, coz hes totaly came back 2 the top of the heap as far as live performance goes, everybody wants Prince at their festival or on their show, havin a big hit single is kinda the only thing left for him 2 produce at this stage in the game!! its funny how he started with this, "tis fun not 2 have 2 care about chart positions no more" banter around 98(seam 2 remember hims aying this 4 the first time in an interview with mel b from spice girls on programme on channel 4 in britain) because in 96' 4 me he pushed hard as fuck 2 try n make Emancipation a hit, their was ads everywhere, he played the Vh1 performance from Paisley Park 2 promote the album, that was being played in hmvs in britain in some places on the day of release, either there or Virgin cant remember exactly...he even plaed on Top Of The Pops doing a very good version of The Holy River, he was on Opera..he tried like fuck and that Artist formely known as shit just fucked up his groove man.....like a few people out there i got my i cd rigged version of emancipation and it playes like a dream with all the shit cut out,,so its all good:D

weejimmy said:

defo man, i remember Alan Leeds saying in an interview on the org that Prince would have the song, the video and concept all in his head, so many ideas b4 theyd even done anything..he was 4 sure interested in his position in the charts, and as you say it may have declined over the years and now i truly believe that he dosent care, coz hes totaly came back 2 the top of the heap as far as live performance goes, everybody wants Prince at their festival or on their show, havin a big hit single is kinda the only thing left for him 2 produce at this stage in the game!! its funny how he started with this, "tis fun not 2 have 2 care about chart positions no more" banter around 98(seam 2 remember hims aying this 4 the first time in an interview with mel b from spice girls on programme on channel 4 in britain) because in 96' 4 me he pushed hard as fuck 2 try n make Emancipation a hit, their was ads everywhere, he played the Vh1 performance from Paisley Park 2 promote the album, that was being played in hmvs in britain in some places on the day of release, either there or Virgin cant remember exactly...he even plaed on Top Of The Pops doing a very good version of The Holy River, he was on Opera..he tried like fuck and that Artist formely known as shit just fucked up his groove man.....like a few people out there i got my i cd rigged version of emancipation and it playes like a dream with all the shit cut out,,so its all good:D

Even long after he supposedly ceased caring about charts, you could tell he was still aiming for them. Beyond Emancipation (which you mentioned), he seemed to bend over backwards trying to fill Rave with radio-ready hits and when they didn't perform well he complained on his website that Clive wasn't living up to his promises to make it happen.

I think TRC is one period where he was making music with no concerted effort to chart (and NEWS).

...but it didn't last long because the trick of selling copies of Musicology at concerts with each ticket was, also, an obvious plan to stay on the charts longer (and it worked!).

After 3121, it seems Prince is ever-more focused on getting those cash advances off releases. Not only may he not be looking at charts, he doesn't care if they sell either - he's already been paid!

Tremolina said:

However, despite all of Prince's love for money and "idosyncratic ways", there was a lot more going on at that time and I wouldn't be so sure if it wasn't already about the 80's masters too by then. Not reportedly perhabs, but such a matter is (or at least should be) always a serious issue, especially in these kind of big deals ( because rights=money).

I, honestly, don't think Prince cared that much while he was getting his way on other things. If masters were a major concern at that point, Prince could have at least gotten control of the masters for anything released under the new contract. After D&P he was in a poition to do that, imo. This idea is backed up by the fact that he was able to renegotiate over the master for TGE. ..but , Come, C&D, The Black Album and The Vault remain in WB's hands, as far as I know.

If ownership of the masters was really an over-riding concern for him, you'd think he'd want ownership of them all. ... in reality it seems like he only really wanted the ones that he thought might hurt WB the most, if they lost them. This is all conjecture, of course, but it fits in with him trying to 'bury' the Prince name, as well - make it less marketabe, and therefore be worth less, to WB.

The deal was apparantly also sort of a continuation of the Paisley Park label joint venture they had going on, with WB footing the bill and Prince more or less controlling it de facto as some private playground.

Let us not forget that WB was, also, prepared to give Prince a second vanity label - , for whatever reason... and VP offices at WB. Prince got a lot beyond the possibilities of advances, and he pissed it away.

Just as long as you are selling tho! If not, we will pull the plug and take as much as we can and want to, while we leave you with the last bills to pay.

What was WB "taking" here? Prince was defaulting on his contract. As it stands, WB *still* went out of their way to cater to his whims (If I had been at WB controlling this situation, I would never had agreed to release TGE under anything but the Prince name, for example). They, also, accepted sub-standard albums and promotion from Prince to end the contract early.

I really can't, in any way, feel sorry for Prince when it comes to this. The contract may have been ambitious but Prince was, also, in the business long enough to understand what he was signing and what the ramifications were.

I don't know really and I may be way off on this and Prince knew damn well every single pitfall and detail of this deal, while the reasons for him to get out of this were completely different, but the entire thing (especially how fast Prince wanted to get out of it and the MAJOR risks for his carreer he took to make that happen, while staying out of such deals ever since) reeks of Prince first THINKING he really got a good deal by getting loads of advances AND co-ownership, but then somehow realising, after he fell for the money, that he was still as fucked as ever.

Why was he "fucked"??? It was probaby the best contract he had ever seen up to that point (and the best he ever will see). The way I see it, it was more of a "be careful what you wish for" scenario. He wanted a big contract and big advances for each album (which he still demands to this day) but when an album didn't sell well ( ) he realized that there would be no huge advance for the next one after that - and blamed WB, even though he was the one that chose the singles to release, etc... So, Prince "changed his mind" and decided he didn't want the CONtract any longer.

bobbyperu said:

If P had stayed w/WB there probably would have been a lot of pressure on him to come up with radio-friendly hits. Again and again. No, I don't think the music woulda been any better. [code]

You mean like he did, anyway?