I remember in 1984 / 1985 listening to OLD SCHOOL rap just as it was starting to break big: Run DMC, Egyptian Lover, Twilight 22, UTFO, The Roxanne shit..........

this was clearly the future of soul music. I remember wondering back then why Prince didn't do some RAP songs, seriously!

Prince fought rap for a long time, scoffed at it, etc........... when rap finally started appearing on his albums, it wasn't himself, it was TONY M........

Did Prince feel like he couldn't rap?

I think it was more that Prince didn't really like rap that much. Apart from those that were "dead on it".

It's like his mantra about real music by real musicians. I'm sure in reality Prince can pick out a quality dance/techno tune when he hears it and knows when something is good. Unfortunately he is a little prone to sweeping generalisations (like most of us) and states that he doesn't really like samples/computers/electronica. What he probably means is that he does not appreciate unimaginative use of those elements. We all know he has also used samples/computers etc to great effect.

Back to rap, of course he can "rap" not like Jay-Z or Chuck D or Q-Tip but I think he pouted about it for a little too long, and then when he did decide to incorporate it he used less stellar rappers initially and of course we all know how fondly we look back on the likes of Tony M, Scrap D, TC Ellis etc now.

Thanks goodness he has also featured Chuck D and Q-Tip on a couple of songs, AND he has also done some pretty good rapping himself.

Although it might not have been interpreted as rap at the time, i think there's a good flow of rhythmic dialogue going on in Vanity 6's "If A Girl Answers Don't Hang Up"

If you read back some interviews with various hip hop pioneers on www.thafoundation.com,

you'll notice that some of them didn't get the recognition from funk or soul bands which they toured with in the early 80's.

But then around that 1984/1985-era, rap slowly began to be flipped in the mix by groups such as Cameo ("She's Strange") and Con Funk Shun ("Electric Lady").

KeithyT said:

I think it was more that Prince didn't really like rap that much. Apart from those that were "dead on it".

It's like his mantra about real music by real musicians. I'm sure in reality Prince can pick out a quality dance/techno tune when he hears it and knows when something is good. Unfortunately he is a little prone to sweeping generalisations (like most of us) and states that he doesn't really like samples/computers/electronica. What he probably means is that he does not appreciate unimaginative use of those elements. We all know he has also used samples/computers etc to great effect.

Back to rap, of course he can "rap" not like Jay-Z or Chuck D or Q-Tip but I think he pouted about it for a little too long, and then when he did decide to incorporate it he used less stellar rappers initially and of course we all know how fondly we look back on the likes of Tony M, Scrap D, TC Ellis etc now.

Thanks goodness he has also featured Chuck D and Q-Tip on a couple of songs, AND he has also done some pretty good rapping himself.

For all his accolades, Chuck D did nothing for Prince's music. Same for Q-Tip.

Tony M gets alot of flack around here, but he was a big part of Prince's sound for a couple of years. Overall, I liked it, but I prefer Prince's rapping to them all.

I think it was just a marketing/$$ thing. He probably knew he couldn't go straight out rap himself, but having a rapper in the band gave him a way in.

Of course, Prince looking at it from a $ POV, he goes after the MC Hammer/pop end of things.

I think Prince thought rap was fad, he was out of touch, people who bang on about no real instruments, dont know know Hip Hop, it takes alot of skill to use turntables the way Jazzy Jeff etc etc used them, even sampling, can be done in a extremly creative way, not all these guys had access to musical instruments so they vented their creativity else where. Plus their where rap groups that did use traditional instruments.

I think Prince at the time may have looked down on it, didnt understand it, even felt threarned that he may not be seen as "cutting edge" anymore. The fact he picked Tony M as a rapper further illustrates he didnt know what a good MC was.

BruthaMoorice said:

I think Prince thought rap was fad, he was out of touch, people who bang on about no real instruments, dont know know Hip Hop, it takes alot of skill to use turntables the way Jazzy Jeff etc etc used them, even sampling, can be done in a extremly creative way, not all these guys had access to musical instruments so they vented their creativity else where. Plus their where rap groups that did use traditional instruments.

I think Prince at the time may have looked down on it, didnt understand it, even felt threarned that he may not be seen as "cutting edge" anymore. The fact he picked Tony M as a rapper further illustrates he didnt know what a good MC was.

i don't think prince ever really took the time to listen to hiphop. he displays his ignorance in musicology, stating if it ain't chuck d or run dmc he ain't interested, very arrogant and dismissive. prince's rapping style complied with those lazy critics, "oh rapping is just nursery rhymes over beats". i bet you there ain't no rakim albums in prince's record collection!

robertgeorgeakabob said:

BruthaMoorice said:

I think Prince thought rap was fad, he was out of touch, people who bang on about no real instruments, dont know know Hip Hop, it takes alot of skill to use turntables the way Jazzy Jeff etc etc used them, even sampling, can be done in a extremly creative way, not all these guys had access to musical instruments so they vented their creativity else where. Plus their where rap groups that did use traditional instruments.

I think Prince at the time may have looked down on it, didnt understand it, even felt threarned that he may not be seen as "cutting edge" anymore. The fact he picked Tony M as a rapper further illustrates he didnt know what a good MC was.

i don't think prince ever really took the time to listen to hiphop. he displays his ignorance in musicology, stating if it ain't chuck d or run dmc he ain't interested, very arrogant and dismissive. prince's rapping style complied with those lazy critics, "oh rapping is just nursery rhymes over beats". i bet you there ain't no rakim albums in prince's record collection!

I think what he meant by that line was actually a bit of revisionist history, saying the only truly cool rap was the old school, original rap. And of course we know that around the time those guys were initially releasing albums, he wanted absolutely NOTHING to do with rap (or at least the culture).

He just didn't like it.

A lot of musicians were dismissive of hip hop as not real music.

Think about it, if you grew up with Gil-scott Heron, Watts Prophets, or Black Poets, then rhapsodic hip hop was a strange trend to wrap your head around outside of political music, and interestingly enough, musical theater.

Anyway, the first hip hop records were around 1978 and Prince recorded Irresistible Bitch in 1981. Darling Nikki was recorded in 1984, and My name is Prince came out in 1992.

What more can you ask for?

[Edited 7/5/11 22:33pm]

[Edited 7/5/11 22:34pm]

treehouse said:

A lot of musicians were dismissive of hip hop as not real music.

Think about it, if you grew up with Gil-scott Heron, Watts Prophets, or Black Poets, then rhapsodic hip hop was a strange trend to wrap your head around outside of political music, and interestingly enough, musical theater.

Anyway, the first hip hop records were around 1978 and Prince recorded Irresistible Bitch in 1981. Darling Nikki was recorded in 1984, and My name is Prince came out in 1992.

What more can you ask for?

[Edited 7/5/11 22:33pm]

[Edited 7/5/11 22:34pm]

Really Good points here! Totally agree with you here!

1st sign of prince becoming a conservative musician!

While not on many of his "released" tracks, I think Prince did dabble in rapping in the 80's. Check out Shockadelica extended, and I think Hello extended too. Also - he included Cat's rap on Positivity in 1988.

I do not understand why Prince farmed out rappers though - I think his smooth voice would've sounded much better rapping on tracks like Mr. Happy - and, well, deadpan silence would've sounded better than Tony M's best rap (except willing and able - where the effcts made that rap bearable).

I think it does have to do w/ Prince wanting to have "credibility" and not feeling he'd have it on his own rapping. But - see his styling on the big city remix, adam & eve version of TGRES, strange but true, or even the get wild bridge - and he can hold his own in my opinion. He has some cheese out there (see Mr. Goodnight & "feel good") - but for the most part he's solid

Most singers didn't try to rap themselves and got actual rappers. Stevie Wonder did do a little rhyme on Do I Do though (and Each Others Throat years later). Debbie Harry did one on Rapture. Herbie Hancock embraced hip hop with the turntablism on Rockit.

mydrawers said:

I remember in 1984 / 1985 listening to OLD SCHOOL rap just as it was starting to break big: Run DMC, Egyptian Lover, Twilight 22, UTFO, The Roxanne shit..........

this was clearly the future of soul music.

How is rap Soul music?

Listen to 'push' - off Diamonds and pearls. Three people rap on that tune, one is Prince - he wins that battle hands down. The rappers he has used don't, in the main, have much credibility themselves so why didn't he do his own rap.

Irresisstible Bitch?

Rap is best left to rappers. And rap is disco music, not soul.

funksterr said:

Rap is best left to rappers. And rap is disco music, not soul.

Maybe early rap was, as it was generally performed with a band playing the music. But after around 1985, the funk and disco was mostly abandoned. This was around the time the 1st samplers came into the market. Paying a band is more costly than just getting a drum machine and sampler and programming a beat. Samplers also slowly phased out the DJ. The DJ was more important than the MC in the early days.

MickyDolenz said:

funksterr said:

Rap is best left to rappers. And rap is disco music, not soul.

Maybe early rap was, as it was generally performed with a band playing the music. But after around 1985, the funk and disco was mostly abandoned. This was around the time the 1st samplers came into the market. Paying a band is more costly than just getting a drum machine and sampler and programming a beat. Samplers also slowly phased out the DJ. The DJ was more important than the MC in the early days.

Grandmaster Flash had a modified Vox drum machine in the late 70's. Afrika Bambaata and Jazzy Jay also had access to drum machines long before. Once T-LaRock's "It's Yours" came out, everyone copied the stripped down electro sound, which was actually Jazzy Jay scratching, not a drum machine. The samplers actually rekindled the interest in the old breaks from the early-70's.

Hip Hop earliest breaks came from disco, funk, soul, rock and virtually anything they could get crowds to dance to. Rap mostly takes after the early disco, which used a lot of latin beats, and actual musicianship, more so than Donna Summers, and all that came later.

MickyDolenz said:

funksterr said:

Rap is best left to rappers. And rap is disco music, not soul.

Maybe early rap was, as it was generally performed with a band playing the music. But after around 1985, the funk and disco was mostly abandoned. This was around the time the 1st samplers came into the market. Paying a band is more costly than just getting a drum machine and sampler and programming a beat. Samplers also slowly phased out the DJ. The DJ was more important than the MC in the early days.

No, rap is disco. Think big picture and you will see it. Rap follows the rules of disco much more than it does rock or soul or even funk.

funksterr said:

MickyDolenz said:

Maybe early rap was, as it was generally performed with a band playing the music. But after around 1985, the funk and disco was mostly abandoned. This was around the time the 1st samplers came into the market. Paying a band is more costly than just getting a drum machine and sampler and programming a beat. Samplers also slowly phased out the DJ. The DJ was more important than the MC in the early days.

No, rap is disco. Think big picture and you will see it. Rap follows the rules of disco much more than it does rock or soul or even funk.

Some of the hip hop that came out later wasn't designed for dancing, but for big booming speaker systems that were put in cars. Dance music and house has more to do with disco than rap. Rappers who made dance pop (C+C Music Factory, Snap, Marky Mark, Technotronic, 2 Unlimited, Gerardo, MC Hammer, Vanilla Ice, etc.) weren't taken seriously by the "streets".

"Rap is disco."

[img:$uid]http://i56.tinypic.com/2hdxt7a.jpg[/img:$uid]

Timmy84 said:

"Rap is disco."

[img:$uid]http://i56.tinypic.com/2hdxt7a.jpg[/img:$uid]

As much as I hate to admit it, and while I would never consider Hip Hop disco, we all know disco played a part early on in breaking rap in, even the fact that disco was instrumental in getting people used to the idea of hearing a DJ spin music at a club, it's funny how every little element in poular music plays a part in how it influences other generes one way or another.

funksterr said:

MickyDolenz said:

Maybe early rap was, as it was generally performed with a band playing the music. But after around 1985, the funk and disco was mostly abandoned. This was around the time the 1st samplers came into the market. Paying a band is more costly than just getting a drum machine and sampler and programming a beat. Samplers also slowly phased out the DJ. The DJ was more important than the MC in the early days.

No, rap is disco. Think big picture and you will see it. Rap follows the rules of disco much more than it does rock or soul or even funk.

so tell me how all those late 80s tracks that sampled funky drummer are disco?? or rick rubin using led zepellin riffs when he produced run dmc and beastie boys? think big picture!

Meloh9 said:

Timmy84 said:

"Rap is disco."

[img:$uid]http://i56.tinypic.com/2hdxt7a.jpg[/img:$uid]

As much as I hate to admit it, and while I would never consider Hip Hop disco, we all know disco played a part early on in breaking rap in, even the fact that disco was instrumental in getting people used to the idea of hearing a DJ spin music at a club, it's funny how every little element in poular music plays a part in how it influences other generes one way or another.

That's true but rap can be displayed in different formats. It sure didn't start off in disco though it kinda helped it initially. But I think the person who said that dismiss it AS disco music. That's why I was rolling my eyes at the comment.

funksterr said:

No, rap is disco. Think big picture and you will see it. Rap follows the rules of disco much more than it does rock or soul or even funk.

More like Disco is rock, soul and funk. As is Hip Hop.

This might change your mind.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/HzANEroh6aY

The creation of hip-hop came about as the ANTITHESIS of Disco.

The guys in the streets, and in the hoods, couldn't get in to the Disco clubs, those clubs were too "bourgeois" and most had dress codes that didn't allow you to wear sneakers.

So the guys like Kool Herc and Flash were like "Fuck it, we'll have our OWN jams!". They hooked up equipment in the streets using electricity bypassed from streetlights, etc. These were the first Block Parties. DJ's like Herc would spin and loop the drum breaks from classic funk jams, like "Funky Drummer" - some guys would grab a mic and rap on them and others would breakdance.