One thing I've discovered recently is that Prince's best "albums" of the past 10 years or so haven't been released by Prince, but by the bootleggers.

In that light, I think it may actually be somewhat astute for Prince to never record another studio album. Think about it; Prince writes a new song and rehearses it, gigs it (in either main set or aftershow setting), a fan records it... and voila, we have a new Prince song! Prince needs not spend a dime on production costs. It would be an interesting way for him to redefine himself (which is somewhat overdue), redefine the music business (which is has always been good at). On top of that, it really plays into his 21st Century credo, "Real music by real musicians," by pushing it even further by avoiding overdubs.

Collectors know that audience recordings have just gotten better and better over the years, with equipment getting both smaller and more hi-fi. What many don't know is that, whenever he wants, Prince can actually legally take a disc from let's say, Sabotage, and release it on his own without having to pay anyone. So if he really wanted to release a single or even an album, he could do so at essentially no expense. (Dylan has released several cuts officially using "masters" that were originally captured and released illegally by bootleggers).

On a slightly different but related note; I see people on the .org often clammoring for remasters. Is there a consensus that the current CD masters are inferior to the original vinyl, or is it more about re-packaging (i.e. with bonus tracks, new liners, etc.) than it really is remastering? I've never really had a problem with the currently available CD master for the most part, but I really haven't A/B'ed them against vinyl. Are any of his albums already remastered by MFSL, DCC or similar? I thought some were.

[Edited 6/25/11 9:43am]

I was thinking it would be nice if Prince released only live albums (with new songs, of course) instead of studio albums, since everyone says he's way better live anyway, although I think most bootlegs (unless they're soundboards) usually sound awful in terms of sound quality.

While I'm certianly no expert on the remastering process, I believe it's possible to make the albums sound even better with a remaster than they did on the original vinyl release. I've bought remasters before that I thought sounded far superior to my vinyl copies; and there's many Prince albums that really don't hold up when it comes to sound quality, particularly Parade. I'd love to have that album remastered, with or without bonus tracks.

[Edited 6/24/11 17:45pm]

The1592 said:

I was thinking it would be nice if Prince released only live albums (with new songs, of course) instead of studio albums, since everyone says he's way better live anyway, although I think most bootlegs (unless they're soundboards) usually sound awful in terms of sound quality.

While I'm certianly no expert on the remastering process, I believe it's possible to make the albums sound even better with a remaster than they did on the original vinyl release. I've bought remasters before that I thought sounded far superior to my vinyl copies; and there's many Prince albums that really don't hold up when it comes to sound quality, particularly Parade. I'd love to have that album remastered, with or without bonus tracks.

[Edited 6/24/11 17:45pm]

In my experience, the majority of remasters sound worse than both the vinyl and the original CD release, in particular, being guilty of horrible brick-walling and thus losing all of the original dynamics intended by the artist.

I don't think you've heard many recent bootlegs; audience recordings today can easily stand next to a soundboard and I've actually heard many that are much better than an average soundboard.

How can an audience recording be better than a soundboard, you may ask? I have a background in audio engineering, so I'll explain.

Firstly, portable equipment has gotten very, very good. Secondly, an audience recording represents what the actual house mix was. A soundboard recording may not represent the house mix, oftentimes I know they don't. Also, a soundboard can compensate EQ and mixing for the deficiences of the house acoustics. In these later cases, the "house" sound combines with the the soundboard to give the listeners in the audience the best possible fidelity. Therefore, a soundboard can essentially be missing a key element, the room. Alone, without the room to compensate for the house mix, the soundboard can often sound downright distorted.

Lastly, a good audience recording gives a much more authentic live experience, as you really feel like you're in the audience, becuase essentially... you are. This can work against you as well, as I and many others have had some great shows ruined by an obnoxious jerk standing next to the taper.

[Edited 6/24/11 18:09pm]

There are definitely some bad remasters out there, but I think the Dylan, Stevie Wonder, Yes (to a lesser extent) and obviously Beatles remasters are all extremely enjoyable. Man some of that Dylan stuff sounds amazing .. like I didn't even know CDs could sound that good.

It's all about getting a good re-transfer of the master tapes using modern digital technology, and then not screwing it up too much with limiting. So I do agree overall, but I think there are a lot of examples of remastered catalogs that have done a good, tasteful job of it recently.!

[Edited 6/24/11 18:11pm]

The1592 said:

I was thinking it would be nice if Prince released only live albums (with new songs, of course) instead of studio albums, since everyone says he's way better live anyway, although I think most bootlegs (unless they're soundboards) usually sound awful in terms of sound quality.

While I'm certianly no expert on the remastering process, I believe it's possible to make the albums sound even better with a remaster than they did on the original vinyl release. I've bought remasters before that I thought sounded far superior to my vinyl copies; and there's many Prince albums that really don't hold up when it comes to sound quality, particularly Parade. I'd love to have that album remastered, with or without bonus tracks.

[Edited 6/24/11 17:45pm]

Now that would be worth the investment. Who needs a new album?

Whether or not it's 'astute' isn't really the point. I agree with you that it might be, especially from a jaded fan's perspective, but can you really see Prince ceding control of his recording output to a fan?

Some of soundboards over the past few years have been astonishing in quality granted, but their still unofficial. I would be extremely shocked, nay astonished if he considered any collabaration viable in any way.

As regards Remasters, I'm a bit of a technophobe regarding this, but all I know is he needs to Remaster Sign, Parade, Dirty Mind and a few others. I have all his 80s to mid 90s stuff on vinyl, but I'd love some quality back-ups. Sign, especially on Cd sounds extremely muffled and muddy.

maplesyrupnjam said:

Sign, especially on Cd sounds extremely muffled and muddy.

I've always wondered about this. My copy of SOTT (the newest 'slimline' CD pressing, I think?) definitely sounds quieter and less aggressively mastered than a lot of other music, but it doesn't sound muffled or muddy to me. In fact if you turn it up a little extra so it's at a normal listening volume, I think it sounds quite trebly! More or less like Lovesexy in terms of the mix, I think. Are there different versions of the SOTT CD in terms of the audio mix?

Pbing said:

maplesyrupnjam said:

Sign, especially on Cd sounds extremely muffled and muddy.

I've always wondered about this. My copy of SOTT (the newest 'slimline' CD pressing, I think?) definitely sounds quieter and less aggressively mastered than a lot of other music, but it doesn't sound muffled or muddy to me. In fact if you turn it up a little extra so it's at a normal listening volume, I think it sounds quite trebly! More or less like Lovesexy in terms of the mix, I think. Are there different versions of the SOTT CD in terms of the audio mix?

Maybe It's the copy I have? I used to turn it up to fuck and still it sounded like it was recorded in soup

maplesyrupnjam said:

Whether or not it's 'astute' isn't really the point. I agree with you that it might be, especially from a jaded fan's perspective, but can you really see Prince ceding control of his recording output to a fan?

Some of soundboards over the past few years have been astonishing in quality granted, but their still unofficial. I would be extremely shocked, nay astonished if he considered any collabaration viable in any way.

I was just about to say this. Prince would never do an 'official bootleg' thing like Bob Dylan and others have done. I think it's been well established that he's a control freak; and now he's said he won't release albums (even live ones, i'd assume) due to piracy.

What's odd is that in the late 90s he said the best way to combat bootlegging was by releasing all the stuff legally; yet he doesn't ever release live albums, despite eveyone here saying they'd go broke buying them all if he did.

Still, it would be nice if he'd just play more new songs live, then have someone who's good at it record the shows. I heard many 21 nights in L.A. bootlegs, and they all sounded terrible.

The1592 said:

maplesyrupnjam said:

Whether or not it's 'astute' isn't really the point. I agree with you that it might be, especially from a jaded fan's perspective, but can you really see Prince ceding control of his recording output to a fan?

Some of soundboards over the past few years have been astonishing in quality granted, but their still unofficial. I would be extremely shocked, nay astonished if he considered any collabaration viable in any way.

I was just about to say this. Prince would never do an 'official bootleg' thing like Bob Dylan and others have done. I think it's been well established that he's a control freak; and now he's said he won't release albums (even live ones, i'd assume) due to piracy.

What's odd is that in the late 90s he said the best way to combat bootlegging was by releasing all the stuff legally; yet he doesn't ever release live albums, despite eveyone here saying they'd go broke buying them all if he did.

Still, it would be nice if he'd just play more new songs live, then have someone who's good at it record the shows. I heard many 21 nights in L.A. bootlegs, and they all sounded terrible.

The1592 said:

I heard many 21 nights in L.A. bootlegs, and they all sounded terrible.

I've heard all of the circulating Forum shows, and this is not a good judge of what a great audience recording can sound like. Take it from me, there are audience recordings out there that someone with your perspective simply wouldn't believe are audience recordings. Only an experienced collector or engineer would be able to detect the tell-tale signs of an audience recording, they sound THAT perfect.

I don't believe by it's nature, a CD can better a high-quality analog master. Digital audio, no matter how well it's mastered is still essentially a flip-book of the audio signal with snapshots taken 44,100 times a second (in a typical CD). Analog doesn't have this limitation.

[Edited 6/24/11 19:03pm]

Sounds to me from the recent interviews like Prince is doubling down on his anti-digital crusade. Anyone who wants to hear high-quality versions of Prince's albums should probably invest in a turntable, because we may not be seeing any digital remasters for a long time.

The1592 said:

maplesyrupnjam said:

Whether or not it's 'astute' isn't really the point. I agree with you that it might be, especially from a jaded fan's perspective, but can you really see Prince ceding control of his recording output to a fan?

Some of soundboards over the past few years have been astonishing in quality granted, but their still unofficial. I would be extremely shocked, nay astonished if he considered any collabaration viable in any way.

I was just about to say this. Prince would never do an 'official bootleg' thing like Bob Dylan and others have done. I think it's been well established that he's a control freak; and now he's said he won't release albums (even live ones, i'd assume) due to piracy.

What's odd is that in the late 90s he said the best way to combat bootlegging was by releasing all the stuff legally; yet he doesn't ever release live albums, despite eveyone here saying they'd go broke buying them all if he did.

Still, it would be nice if he'd just play more new songs live, then have someone who's good at it record the shows. I heard many 21 nights in L.A. bootlegs, and they all sounded terrible.

You're missing the point. It wouldn't have to be an "official bootleg," or anything like that. It really wouldn't even need to be official. He would simply need to write and perform new songs live, the fans would take care of the rest.

That he could take it upon himself to release an audience recording, if he wanted it to reach a wider audience, is just an added possibility. But he admits, that selling recordings is not really a money-making proposition anymore so why should be bother spending the time, money and energy? Who is to say you need a studio recording to be considered definitive? Seems very 20th Century thinking to me.

To clarify, Dylan has officially released audience-sourced bootleg recordings, but not in his "Bootleg Series." Those are all soundboards. However, all of the virtually all of the B-sides from the "Love Sick" CD singles were sourced from audience recordings that were already widely circulating within the collector/trader community.

[Edited 6/24/11 19:41pm]

Imaginative said:

I've heard all of the circulating Forum shows, and this is not a good judge of what a great audience recording can sound like. Take it from me, there are audience recordings out there that someone with your perspective simply wouldn't believe are audience recordings. Only an experienced collector or engineer would be able to detect the tell-tale signs of an audience recording, they sound THAT perfect.

Can you provide several examples of audience recordings that, in your view, only an experienced collector or engineer would be able to detect to have the tell-tale signs of an audience recording because they sound that perfect?

The1592 said:

electricberet said:

Dude this has been rehashed over and over

Some people HAPPEN to like Prince's recent output, and I'd rather have new material than remasters.

Just because YOU and even because MANY people don't like it doesn't mean it's worthless or shouldn't happen, u know...

If Prince says he's got three new albums in the bag, people say 'I'll believe it when I see it'. When he says he's not releasing anything new, the sky is falling. The guy is a born bullshitter - he'll have something out in 2012.

I wouldn't droll over his live shows to be honest, his recent shows have been as lacklustre as his recent studio work - it's all phoned in, the bands are still competent no doubt, but they're like a covers band.

Fans want remasters and vault stuf - which means he probably has no intention of putting them out, mainly because it would be a clear indication of how little people care about his new studio work. A collection of 82-87 out-takes would sell gangbusters compared to a new album - that probably shits him up.

All I did was read the title of the thread.

Day AND age. Not day OF age.

I also happen to like his new stuff.

Imaginative said:

One thing I've discovered recently is that Prince's best "albums" of the past 10 years or so haven't been released by Prince, but by the bootleggers.

In that light, I think it may actually be somewhat astute for Prince to never record another studio album. Think about it; Prince writes a new song and rehearses it, gigs it (in either main set or aftershow setting), a fan records it... and voila, we have a new Prince song! Prince needs not spend a dime on production costs. It would be an interesting way for him to redefine himself (which is somewhat overdue), redefine the music business (which is has always been good at). On top of that, it really plays into his 21st Century credo, "Real music by real musicians," by pushing it even further by avoiding overdubs.

Collectors know that audience recordings have just gotten better and better over the years, with equipment getting both smaller and more hi-fi. What many don't know is that, whenever he wants, Prince can actually legally take a disc from let's say, Sabotage, and release it on his own without having to pay anyone. So if he really wanted to release a single or even an album, he could do so at essentially no expense. (Dylan has released several cuts officially using "masters" that were originally captured and released illegally by bootleggers).

On a slightly different but related note; I see people on the .org often clammoring for remasters. Is there a consensus that the current CD masters are inferior to the original vinyl, or is it more about re-packaging (i.e. with bonus tracks, new liners, etc.) than it really is remastering? I've never really had a problem with the currently available CD master for the most part, but I really haven't A/B'ed them against vinyl. Are any of his albums already remastered by MFSL, DCC or similar? I thought some were.

Prince's considerable studio work in the past 10 or so years has not been leaked to bootleggers.

The1592 said:

maplesyrupnjam said:

Whether or not it's 'astute' isn't really the point. I agree with you that it might be, especially from a jaded fan's perspective, but can you really see Prince ceding control of his recording output to a fan?

Some of soundboards over the past few years have been astonishing in quality granted, but their still unofficial. I would be extremely shocked, nay astonished if he considered any collabaration viable in any way.

I heard many 21 nights in L.A. bootlegs, and they all sounded terrible.

Compared to the sound quality of the shows recorded in 2010 in Europe, yes, I agree, the W2A shows sound shit.

databank said:

Dude this has been rehashed over and over

Some people HAPPEN to like Prince's recent output, and I'd rather have new material than remasters.

Just because YOU and even because MANY people don't like it doesn't mean it's worthless or shouldn't happen, u know...

"Dude," you obviously didn't read the OP. I never said that I didn't like the new material. The issue is whether studio albums are even needed to release the new material. Maybe if you freed your mind of it's 20th Century thinking, you would grasp the concept.

[Edited 6/25/11 9:43am]

langebleu said:

Imaginative said:

I've heard all of the circulating Forum shows, and this is not a good judge of what a great audience recording can sound like. Take it from me, there are audience recordings out there that someone with your perspective simply wouldn't believe are audience recordings. Only an experienced collector or engineer would be able to detect the tell-tale signs of an audience recording, they sound THAT perfect.

Can you provide several examples of audience recordings that, in your view, only an experienced collector or engineer would be able to detect to have the tell-tale signs of an audience recording because they sound that perfect?

Although a soundboard patch is the most direct way to record a band, and sometimes the cleanest, it isn't always the best sounding. The sound person is mixing the music to sound good in the room, not on a tape. The PA is often used mainly to fill in drums and vocals with the guitar and bass amps on the stage, so the mix may have little or no sound from these instruments, providing a tape of drums and vocals with only the minimal guitar and bass sound picked up by the vocal mics. (A good example of this is the beloved "Small Club" show, where the bass being generated from the kick drum and keyboards, slightly overwhelms Levi's bass guitar in the mix, which is often hard to hear in comparison.) Even if all the instruments are in the mix, it may be mixed for the room and sound odd played back on a home stereo.

As a rule of thumb, the smaller the venue, the more likely it is that the soundboard mix will be unsatisfactory. This rule applies mainly to electrically amplified bands and less to acoustic or bluegrass bands which may run all the instruments throught the PA even in a tiny room. A well made audience or front of board (FOB) tape can often sound better than a soundboard of the same show, which is the reason that some bands do not allow soundboard feeds.

To answer your question, way too many to list, but I'll give you a few examples. Still working my way through my Prince boots, so they won't all be Prince.

Prince:

6/25/02: Xenophobia

8/29/07: London (I prefer the "Indigo Chronicles"—which contains MANY excellent audience recordings version to the "Prince, Josh, Cora" version)

Dylan:

12/19/97: El Rey, Los Angeles

9/24 & 9/25, 2000: Portsmouth Guild Hall (one of the best audience recordings I've ever heard.)

If you're really interested, I would check out the Digital Gardener website, and search out for some of the audience recordings rated A or A+. He also posts here, so maybe he'll chime in with some more excellent Prince audience recordings.

It's not a secret among bootleg collectors that great audience recordings can sound better than a decent soundboard. Again, if you're really interested (from your tone, I'm not sure you are), I would seek reviews and get some of the best ones.

[Edited 6/25/11 9:54am]

Imaginative said:

langebleu said:

Can you provide several examples of audience recordings that, in your view, only an experienced collector or engineer would be able to detect to have the tell-tale signs of an audience recording because they sound that perfect?

If you're really interested, I would check out the Digital Gardener website, and search out for some of the audience recordings rated A or A+. He also posts here, so maybe he'll chime in with some more excellent Prince audience recordings.

Re. the digitalgarden website, it is not my site, and I am in no way involved with it in any capacity.

We share similar names, that is all.

TheDigitalGardener said:

Imaginative said:

If you're really interested, I would check out the Digital Gardener website, and search out for some of the audience recordings rated A or A+. He also posts here, so maybe he'll chime in with some more excellent Prince audience recordings.

Re. the digitalgarden website, it is not my site, and I am in no way involved with it in any capacity.

We share similar names, that is all.

My mistake, I assumed, but I only made an ass of me! Apologies. You do seem to know a lot about circulating recordings!

Imaginative said:

langebleu said:

Can you provide several examples of audience recordings that, in your view, only an experienced collector or engineer would be able to detect to have the tell-tale signs of an audience recording because they sound that perfect?

Prince:

6/25/02: Xenophobia

8/29/07: London (I prefer the "Indigo Chronicles"—which contains MANY excellent audience recordings version to the "Prince, Josh, Cora" version)

While I agree that there are some very good examples of audience recordings available, the ones you have listed here are very easily detectable as audience recordings, at least to my ears.

Imaginative said:

TheDigitalGardener said:

Re. the digitalgarden website, it is not my site, and I am in no way involved with it in any capacity.

We share similar names, that is all.

My mistake, I assumed, but I only made an ass of me! Apologies. You do seem to know a lot about circulating recordings!

No harm done, as for bootlegs, they are what interest me the most.

[Edited 6/25/11 10:00am]

TheDigitalGardener said:

Imaginative said:

Prince:

6/25/02: Xenophobia

8/29/07: London (I prefer the "Indigo Chronicles"—which contains MANY excellent audience recordings version to the "Prince, Josh, Cora" version)

While I agree that there are some very good examples of audience recordings available, the ones you have listed here are very easily detectable as audience recordings, at least to my ears.

To mine as well... but we are COLLECTORS. We know the signs. I'm not sure if an untrained ear would be able to tell. I would love to hear some examples from you, regarding best Prince audience recordings. You've heard a lot more than I.

Imaginative said:

langebleu said:

Can you provide several examples of audience recordings that, in your view, only an experienced collector or engineer would be able to detect to have the tell-tale signs of an audience recording because they sound that perfect?

Although a soundboard patch is the most direct way to record a band, and sometimes the cleanest, it isn't always the best sounding. The sound person is mixing the music to sound good in the room, not on a tape. The PA is often used mainly to fill in drums and vocals with the guitar and bass amps on the stage, so the mix may have little or no sound from these instruments, providing a tape of drums and vocals with only the minimal guitar and bass sound picked up by the vocal mics. (A good example of this is the beloved "Small Club" show, where the bass being generated from the kick drum and keyboards, slightly overwhelms Levi's bass guitar in the mix, which is often hard to hear in comparison.) Even if all the instruments are in the mix, it may be mixed for the room and sound odd played back on a home stereo.

As a rule of thumb, the smaller the venue, the more likely it is that the soundboard mix will be unsatisfactory. This rule applies mainly to electrically amplified bands and less to acoustic or bluegrass bands which may run all the instruments throught the PA even in a tiny room. A well made audience or front of board (FOB) tape can often sound better than a soundboard of the same show, which is the reason that some bands do not allow soundboard feeds.

To answer your question, way too many to list, but I'll give you a few examples. Still working my way through my Prince boots, so they won't all be Prince.

Prince:

6/25/02: Xenophobia

8/29/07: London (I prefer the "Indigo Chronicles"—which contains MANY excellent audience recordings version to the "Prince, Josh, Cora" version)

Dylan:

12/19/97: El Rey, Los Angeles

9/24 & 9/25, 2000: Portsmouth Guild Hall (one of the best audience recordings I've ever heard.)

If you're really interested, I would check out the Digital Gardener website, and search out for some of the audience recordings rated A or A+. He also posts here, so maybe he'll chime in with some more excellent Prince audience recordings.

It's not a secret among bootleg collectors that great audience recordings can sound better than a decent soundboard. Again, if you're really interested (from your tone, I'm not sure you are), I would seek reviews and get some of the best ones.

[Edited 6/25/11 9:54am]

4DF's First Avenue '86 is audience I think.

I've often thought Prince should do like Zappa's Beat the Boots series or Pearl Jam's official bootlegs series. Releasing low cost/minimal packaging boots would be a great way to undercut the for profit guys. I don't think there's anything to do about the free trade boots. Although I think the majority of folks here and in middle America would spring for pressed discs. Imagine if every show was released for $20. I know the internet is so totally over, but even making a show available for download on a website the next day would completely make for profit and free trading almost unnecessary.

Imaginative said:

TheDigitalGardener said:

While I agree that there are some very good examples of audience recordings available, the ones you have listed here are very easily detectable as audience recordings, at least to my ears.

To mine as well... but we are COLLECTORS. We know the signs. I'm not sure if an untrained ear would be able to tell. I would love to hear some examples from you, regarding best Prince audience recordings. You've heard a lot more than I.

I have so many that it's hard to think of which (I think) are best. There are some great audience recordings, some are not so great sound quality but are great for the actual content of the show, the musicianship, setlist etc.

Imo, some fantastic material has been released by the free labels, FBG, 4DaFunk and others. In some cases new sources or improved older sources have given way to some excellent releases, so anything on these labels is almost essential (again my opinion).

Sabotage used to release some pretty great stuff too, despite their habit of chopping and editing stuff, and their later habit of rehashing material. Some of the older pressed release labels and fan releases have given way to some amazing material too. There is so much material it's quite breathtaking really the scope of it all.

I could talk about this all day, so I will not .

The last great audience recording that I really loved was First Ave '86 from 4DF, amazing what can be done with a new source and a little soundwork, then to be given to the people for free is even more amazing.