muleFunk said:

Spinlight said:

lol. So first you walk around with your chest puffed up like you know there is some sort of fucking conspiracy going on and now your tune swiftly changes...

No.

I think the truth is somewhere in between.

Prince made some bonehead decisions but I do think that he was conspired against in some cases.

Let's be honest here. 1992 was a pivotal year and all, but it had been since 1985 at the very least that WB had been sick of Prince's shit and Prince had not fulfilled demand.

I wouldn't say 1985 but 1988 would be a better estimate.

My point goes back to my Barry White quote " If the record company does not want you to have a number 1 song/album you won't have one."

Now we can argue all day with who's to blame and the why's but the hard question remains here.

Why would WB put Prince who at least 2/3rds of his base is considered pop/rock into the R&B division? Regardless to what "he" wanted to release there is a good chance his pop/rock fans would have supported the song.

When they did that they cut 1/2 of the promotion for his releases. Then he signs a contract stipulating multi-platinum sales but then they move you to the R&B division cutting 2/3rds of your audience. Prince may be at fault for many things but he did not send himself to the R&B division.

People this was HUGE then and it's still having ramifications now with Prince.

Prince truly became a greedy bastard in 1992 when he signed that contact.

muleFunk said:

I wouldn't say 1985 but 1988 would be a better estimate.

My point goes back to my Barry White quote " If the record company does not want you to have a number 1 song/album you won't have one."

Now we can argue all day with who's to blame and the why's but the hard question remains here.

Why would WB put Prince who at least 2/3rds of his base is considered pop/rock into the R&B division? Regardless to what "he" wanted to release there is a good chance his pop/rock fans would have supported the song.

When they did that they cut 1/2 of the promotion for his releases. Then he signs a contract stipulating multi-platinum sales but then they move you to the R&B division cutting 2/3rds of your audience. Prince may be at fault for many things but he did not send himself to the R&B division.

People this was HUGE then and it's still having ramifications now with Prince.

Prince made a concerted effort from 1989 on to include few if any white people in his band and included rapping to the fore. Thats not a pop rock band.

Spinlight said:

Prince made a concerted effort from 1989 on to include few if any white people in his band and included rapping to the fore. Thats not a pop rock band.

Starting with Run-DMC, Fat Boys, LL Cool J, Beastie Boys, and Salt 'N Pepa around 1986, rap was slowly becoming "pop" music. Then a few years later MTV started Yo MTV Raps. It's pretty much been mainstream popular music ever since (at least in the USA). So Prince adding rap to his music doesn't mean he was only trying to get on R&B radio.

MickyDolenz said:

Spinlight said:

Prince made a concerted effort from 1989 on to include few if any white people in his band and included rapping to the fore. Thats not a pop rock band.

Starting with Run-DMC, Fat Boys, LL Cool J, Beastie Boys, and Salt 'N Pepa around 1986, rap was slowly becoming "pop" music. Then a few years later MTV started Yo MTV Raps. It's pretty much been mainstream popular music ever since (at least in the USA). So Prince adding rap to his music doesn't mean he was only trying to get on R&B radio.

Didn't stop idiots in the urban press for thinking Prince had sold out during the "Revolution" period.

MickyDolenz said:

Spinlight said:

Prince made a concerted effort from 1989 on to include few if any white people in his band and included rapping to the fore. Thats not a pop rock band.

Starting with Run-DMC, Fat Boys, LL Cool J, Beastie Boys, and Salt 'N Pepa around 1986, rap was slowly becoming "pop" music. Then a few years later MTV started Yo MTV Raps. It's pretty much been mainstream popular music ever since (at least in the USA). So Prince adding rap to his music doesn't mean he was only trying to get on R&B radio.

Perhaps if you remove the Prince aspect from that scenario, but it was well known Prince was trying to regain his black audience. Perhaps it was the opinion of the heads at WB that he pushed it too far to remain mainstream. After all, by the time they made that shift, he had not been selling too well in the pop market...

Spinlight said:

MickyDolenz said:

Starting with Run-DMC, Fat Boys, LL Cool J, Beastie Boys, and Salt 'N Pepa around 1986, rap was slowly becoming "pop" music. Then a few years later MTV started Yo MTV Raps. It's pretty much been mainstream popular music ever since (at least in the USA). So Prince adding rap to his music doesn't mean he was only trying to get on R&B radio.

Perhaps if you remove the Prince aspect from that scenario, but it was well known Prince was trying to regain his black audience. Perhaps it was the opinion of the heads at WB that he pushed it too far to remain mainstream. After all, by the time they made that shift, he had not been selling too well in the pop market...

Yeah he really wasn't. In fact none of his records prior to or after Purple Rain got close to five million in the U.S., I'm thinking the only one that got that high was Diamonds & Pearls. I mean this wasn't Madonna or Michael sales quality.

Spinlight said:

MickyDolenz said:

Starting with Run-DMC, Fat Boys, LL Cool J, Beastie Boys, and Salt 'N Pepa around 1986, rap was slowly becoming "pop" music. Then a few years later MTV started Yo MTV Raps. It's pretty much been mainstream popular music ever since (at least in the USA). So Prince adding rap to his music doesn't mean he was only trying to get on R&B radio.

Perhaps if you remove the Prince aspect from that scenario, but it was well known Prince was trying to regain his black audience. Perhaps it was the opinion of the heads at WB that he pushed it too far to remain mainstream. After all, by the time they made that shift, he had not been selling too well in the pop market...

Rap went Pop in 1989 officially with "U Can't Touch This". But "Hard-Core Rappers" disowned popular rap in music and interviews (see: 3RD Bass, Tribe Called Quest). Then Dr. Dre releases The Chronic and suddenly rap is Pop music AND hardcore. That's when Prince (and other artists/record labels) started scrambling for rappers and hip hop influenced sounds. But it came off as such rubbish that Prince became less cool from there on out.

This is called projection. For you it´s all about the money and so you suspect the same thing from others.

Tittypants said:

I would personally say when he did the "Batman" Soundtrack, but hey I could be wrong. But when do you think Prince truly started doing things [only] for the $? That seems to be all he's about nowadays....

....Now I wonder how much we'd have to pay to hear him perform his old songs with uncensored/original lyrics live?????

Cerebus said:

Nonsense. He could easily run a small independent record empire if that's actually what he wanted.

You act as if he hasn't tried that in various forms. He's incapable.

Part of the problem is that he HAS produced too much, and half the content he's released has been poorly conceptualized, poorly promoted, and lacking in various ways. Most people here have come to terms that not everything Prince half asses will come out golden at this point.

muleFunk said:

Let's say that you are 100% correct Bart.

We all know that Prince will do some fucked up stuff but WHY would Davis and others keep dealing with him?

Read the Uptown article. Davis expected all the negative press about Prince to be lies. Then a funny thing happened: he was on the receiving end.

Timmy84 said:

Spinlight said:

Perhaps if you remove the Prince aspect from that scenario, but it was well known Prince was trying to regain his black audience. Perhaps it was the opinion of the heads at WB that he pushed it too far to remain mainstream. After all, by the time they made that shift, he had not been selling too well in the pop market...

Yeah he really wasn't. In fact none of his records prior to or after Purple Rain got close to five million in the U.S., I'm thinking the only one that got that high was Diamonds & Pearls. I mean this wasn't Madonna or Michael sales quality.

D&P sold 5+ million -- but he labored over that album, overproduced it, and then toured it worldwide. He promoted the shit out of it.

And then he signed a contract that required him to sell 5 million copies of each album (something he's been able to do only TWICE in his career). I suspect that WBR looked at that and thought "well, maybe he's gonna do the same effort for each of his next albums that he did for D&P" -- which meant they'd have a high profile name on their roster who actually sold records. And if he didn't? Oh well, they now had him tied to a far stricter contract than before (they were far more involved in Paisley Park Records, for instance).

Except of course mere months after signing the contract Prince realized that now he had to do the D&P thing for each record if he wanted to see any money. And he started whining like a toddler about being a slave. As if someone forced him to sign that contract -- whereas in reality he was advised by his band members and lawyers etc. that it wasn't a good deal. But he wanted to trump Madonna's contract and Michael Jackson's contract.

Just look at the shit Prince pulled wrt to the 1994 release of The Black Album: http://prince.org/wiki/Th..._1994_Deal . Just imagine the time and effort that was wasted on these kinds of pathetic battles he was having with his record company.

Did you know that Newpower Soul was promised to THREE companies in Europe? The first company to announce a distribution deal was the same one that had the deal for Crystal Ball in Europe. Then (my local record shop told me) the next week another company said they were gonna handle distribution. And then finally BMG Europe announced they were gonna do it. That's the kind of guy Prince is.

treehouse said:

Part of the problem is that he HAS produced too much,

The problem is that he cannot prioritize. And that's why a niche instrumental album like N.E.W.S. gets more or less the same attention as the pop album he released a year earlier.

And he doesn't follow through. How many of his albums in the past 15 years was he still actively promoting three months after the release? Or six months after the release?

and half the content he's released has been poorly conceptualized, poorly promoted, and lacking in various ways.

These are the "This will do" years.

i guess after grafitti bridge....starting with badmen...

101 said:

i guess after grafitti bridge....starting with badmen...

^

Batman was before Graffiti Bridge......

"Only about $" ? I don't believe it's "Only about $"

$$$$$ matters but he's a musician who likes to play,

I don't believe $$$ is all that matters to Prince.

But he ain't different than you and me, we all wanna be payed for our work, right?

thedance said:

But he ain't different than you and me, we all wanna be payed for our work, right?

..but Prince wants it all in advance. Also, part of that work is in promoting it, which he only does in a half-assed manner.

I'm sure a good part of the reason that 20Ten hasn't seen the light of day in the US is because no one will pay him upfront for it and he didn't want a distribution deal that would require him to actually do promotion and sell copies to earn the $$$.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Ka-Ching!!!

BartVanHemelen said:

treehouse said:

Part of the problem is that he HAS produced too much,

The problem is that he cannot prioritize. And that's why a niche instrumental album like N.E.W.S. gets more or less the same attention as the pop album he released a year earlier.

And he doesn't follow through. How many of his albums in the past 15 years was he still actively promoting three months after the release? Or six months after the release?

and half the content he's released has been poorly conceptualized, poorly promoted, and lacking in various ways.

These are the "This will do" years.

This I agree with you 100% and that's why he was lucky to have people at WB who could talk him out of many mistakes. Everything that he does is not quality music, thus a NPGMC type outlet was a good concept. He needed to release quality CDs and let us die hards who wanted to pay have the bullshit. I don't know if that could have been done in the WB contract structure or not.

Prince biggest failure was the inability to let the system work for him.

purpledoveuk said:

Tittypants said:

I would personally say when he did the "Batman" Soundtrack, but hey I could be wrong. But when do you think Prince truly started doing things [only] for the $? That seems to be all he's about nowadays....

....Now I wonder how much we'd have to pay to hear him perform his old songs with uncensored/original lyrics live?????

The second he signed that new deal in 92ish At first it was just about the paycheque then, after his release from WB, it was about proving he could live without them. By the time. NPGMC came around it was Robin Hood time

That was the start of the downfall. Crazy to sign it, and he is a liar if he says it wasn't about the dollar.

treehouse said:

Cerebus said:

Nonsense. He could easily run a small independent record empire if that's actually what he wanted.

You act as if he hasn't tried that in various forms. He's incapable.

No. Actually, I think I pretty clearly pointed that out. Selective quoting - gotta love it.

The day your parents got tired of taking care of your employed ass!

2020 said:

Whatthe fuck have all of you unappreciative fucks done - nothing! Shut the fuck up already you whiny ass children

Spent thousands of dollars on Prince releases and concert tickets, only to have him turn around and repeatedly talk a silly mess about how he's not getting paid for his music anymore. What the fuck have you done?