JudasLChrist said:

FunkiestOne said:

His creativity isn't gone to zero but it is a fraction of what it used to be. ...just a side effect of getting older.

Untrue. If you look at Classical composers like Richard Wagner, you'll see this idea about age and declining creativity is false. He made his best work right up until his death. It may be true that the culture we have created around pop stars is detrimental to creativity. Wagner had to hustle to get his work produced his entire life. He was well off, but he had to impress benefactors to get money. He wasn't surrounded by yes men, and the money wasn't endless.

I also think that Prince's religion and lack of desire to educate himself about the world is proabaly a damper to his creativity.

I see where you're going with this.

Strangely, I think his continued greatness as a performer may be hurting his creative process on record.

In concert he can ride the wave of energy, pushing even his new material to a place of greatness. How many people said they liked Life of the Party live? It's all so easy live.

But on record, that wave of energy is not there and what is left is the material. He cannot use sheer force of will to make an average song great. I think that is what he thinks will happen, but something is missing.

Back in the 80's the records seemed like a place where he was working stuff out in his life. They felt more important. Now he seems more confident and happy, and it translates to his performance, but the records can't carry the same level of energy, and they are missing the substance of a person going through the basic questions of life.

[Edited 6/27/11 12:20pm]

JudasLChrist said:

FunkiestOne said:

His creativity isn't gone to zero but it is a fraction of what it used to be. ...just a side effect of getting older.

Untrue. If you look at Classical composers like Richard Wagner, you'll see this idea about age and declining creativity is false. He made his best work right up until his death. It may be true that the culture we have created around pop stars is detrimental to creativity. Wagner had to hustle to get his work produced his entire life. He was well off, but he had to impress benefactors to get money. He wasn't surrounded by yes men, and the money wasn't endless.

I also think that Prince's religion and lack of desire to educate himself about the world is proabaly a damper to his creativity.

Wagner, as much as he was a genius, was also a huge self-absorbed asshole btw who stole his friends' women and money as it pleased him. And, btw, he loved to have admirers around himself - the Wesendonks, King Ludwig II, Hans von Bülow, his second wife Cosima and so on and so on... Compared to this dude, Prince is the Dalai Lama. It's true though: he was a creative innovator until he left this world.

electricberet said:

JudasLChrist said:

Untrue. If you look at Classical composers like Richard Wagner, you'll see this idea about age and declining creativity is false. He made his best work right up until his death. It may be true that the culture we have created around pop stars is detrimental to creativity. Wagner had to hustle to get his work produced his entire life. He was well off, but he had to impress benefactors to get money. He wasn't surrounded by yes men, and the money wasn't endless.

I also think that Prince's religion and lack of desire to educate himself about the world is proabaly a damper to his creativity.

Good point. You could also use Beethoven as an example.

Beethoven had a massive creative crisis though starting sometime in the 1810s and going on for years. Composing new music was reduced to a minimun, and instead, he became obsessed with the musical education of his nephew Karl and failed miserably with it. The 9th symphony as well as the late piano sonatas and string quartets were a completely unexpected exploration of new territory as most people thought he was done by then.

NDRU said:

Strangely, I think his continued greatness as a performer may be hurting his creative process on record.

In concert he can ride the wave of energy, pushing even his new material to a place of greatness. How many people said they liked Life of the Party live? It's all so easy live.

But on record, that wave of energy is not there and what is left is the material. He cannot use sheer force of will to make an average song great. I think that is what he thinks will happen, but something is missing.

Back in the 80's the records seemed like a place where he was working stuff out in his life. They felt more important. Now he seems more confident and happy, and it translates to his performance, but the records can't carry the same level of energy, and they are missing the substance of a person going through the basic questions of life.

[Edited 6/27/11 12:20pm]

That's weird but again good point. Back then he recorded more than he toured. Now he tours more than he records. Maybe it's really just age.

His excuse about internet thieves was merely smoke and mirrors. Prince knows his creativity in album making is gone so he is just touring now, going for the easy buck.

Sad.

Timmy84 said:

NDRU said:

Strangely, I think his continued greatness as a performer may be hurting his creative process on record.

In concert he can ride the wave of energy, pushing even his new material to a place of greatness. How many people said they liked Life of the Party live? It's all so easy live.

But on record, that wave of energy is not there and what is left is the material. He cannot use sheer force of will to make an average song great. I think that is what he thinks will happen, but something is missing.

Back in the 80's the records seemed like a place where he was working stuff out in his life. They felt more important. Now he seems more confident and happy, and it translates to his performance, but the records can't carry the same level of energy, and they are missing the substance of a person going through the basic questions of life.

[Edited 6/27/11 12:20pm]

That's weird but again good point. Back then he recorded more than he toured. Now he tours more than he records. Maybe it's really just age.

Definitely age gets most artists.

I see him live, and it's like he says "give me a drummer and a funky bass line/that's all I need and I'm ready to flow"

I think that works onstage because he is such an engaging presence, but without the spectacle of a live performance, a beat, bassline, and guitar solo is not enough. There has to be something behind it.

EmancipationLover said:

JudasLChrist said:

Untrue. If you look at Classical composers like Richard Wagner, you'll see this idea about age and declining creativity is false. He made his best work right up until his death. It may be true that the culture we have created around pop stars is detrimental to creativity. Wagner had to hustle to get his work produced his entire life. He was well off, but he had to impress benefactors to get money. He wasn't surrounded by yes men, and the money wasn't endless.

I also think that Prince's religion and lack of desire to educate himself about the world is proabaly a damper to his creativity.

Wagner, as much as he was a genius, was also a huge self-absorbed asshole btw who stole his friends' women and money as it pleased him. And, btw, he loved to have admirers around himself - the Wesendonks, King Ludwig II, Hans von Bülow, his second wife Cosima and so on and so on... Compared to this dude, Prince is the Dalai Lama. It's true though: he was a creative innovator until he left this world.

Those admirers you point out were his patrons, minus Cosima. I just found a book called "Wagner and Suicide" that posits that Wagner was bipolar, which makes sesnse to me. I don't think he was merely an asshole.

Prince has narrcisistic personality disorder, I think.

JudasLChrist said:

EmancipationLover said:

Wagner, as much as he was a genius, was also a huge self-absorbed asshole btw who stole his friends' women and money as it pleased him. And, btw, he loved to have admirers around himself - the Wesendonks, King Ludwig II, Hans von Bülow, his second wife Cosima and so on and so on... Compared to this dude, Prince is the Dalai Lama. It's true though: he was a creative innovator until he left this world.

Those admirers you point out were his patrons, minus Cosima. I just found a book called "Wagner and Suicide" that posits that Wagner was bipolar, which makes sesnse to me. I don't think he was merely an asshole.

Prince has narrcisistic personality disorder, I think.

This is actually what I would find plausible for Wagner. He spent other people's money on luxury goods to please him, and quite obviously, he only cared about himself. There is even speculation that the heart attack that killed him was caused by a fallout with Cosima, which in turn was the result of Wagner having an affair with one of their female employees. And let's not even get started on his antisemitism...

EmancipationLover said:

JudasLChrist said:

Those admirers you point out were his patrons, minus Cosima. I just found a book called "Wagner and Suicide" that posits that Wagner was bipolar, which makes sesnse to me. I don't think he was merely an asshole.

Prince has narrcisistic personality disorder, I think.

This is actually what I would find plausible for Wagner. He spent other people's money on luxury goods to please him, and quite obviously, he only cared about himself. There is even speculation that the heart attack that killed him was caused by a fallout with Cosima, which in turn was the result of Wagner having an affair with one of their female employees. And let's not even get started on his antisemitism...

Yes, Wagner was a total jerk. In another thread I cited to the interview with Daniel Barenboim where he talks about how he can separate the music from the man. The difference with Prince is that he is both the performer and the composer. I can go to a Wagnerian opera and applaud the singers and orchestra without thinking about what a jerk the composer is. Harder to do that when it's Prince on the stage and he's the one I find personally irritating.

electricberet said:

EmancipationLover said:

This is actually what I would find plausible for Wagner. He spent other people's money on luxury goods to please him, and quite obviously, he only cared about himself. There is even speculation that the heart attack that killed him was caused by a fallout with Cosima, which in turn was the result of Wagner having an affair with one of their female employees. And let's not even get started on his antisemitism...

Yes, Wagner was a total jerk. In another thread I cited to the interview with Daniel Barenboim where he talks about how he can separate the music from the man. The difference with Prince is that he is both the performer and the composer. I can go to a Wagnerian opera and applaud the singers and orchestra without thinking about what a jerk the composer is. Harder to do that when it's Prince on the stage and he's the one I find personally irritating.

That is true, but no one forces you to go to the concert and applaud him. You can listen to his studio albums or the live bootlegs and think to yourself "he's a fucker, but a talented one".

As I wrote on the other thread, I strongly disagree with the concept that we expect an artist we admire for the artistic work to be a decent person at the same time. We don't do it in other aspects of life, do we? When I take a taxi, I don't give a toss if the taxi driver is a good husband or father, I simply pay him for taking me safely to the requested destination. It's similar with artists: I'm interested in their talent and their work. The rest is left for the tabloids. I think that the whole idea of the artist who we also want to admire as a person is romatic teenager bullshit, to be very honest.

2freaky4church1 said:

His excuse about internet thieves was merely smoke and mirrors. Prince knows his creativity in album making is gone so he is just touring now, going for the easy buck.

Sad.

Music industry profits for the past several years have been driven by the sale of singles by young people.

There's three ways for people used to the old music industry revenue model to continue to make profit: 1) make music for the younger audiences or 2) find money thru the growth in sponsorships in the music industry or 3) tour.

None of those things have anything to do with "creativity" per se. Most of the music being both by the itunes generation isn't all that "creative". Most bands and musicians who've been around for more than a decade or so, if you look around are opting for route #3.

^ Actually there's a good group of musicians from the past who are still recording normally. Like alphachannel pointed in another thread where he brought up Mick Jagger, musicians were hardly getting paid except for a period of 25 years for their recordings but now that ain't happening again. I'd been more understanding, I guess, of his rant against the internet, if he didn't try to control the internet himself with ridiculous stuff like overcharging fans to enter his fan club just to download a song for $25 or something.

You know nothing, but nothing compares to 'some' album versions of his songs / music.

Songs like Condition of the Heart, Housequake, If I Was Your Girlfriend , Adore.. lose something in translation when they are played live for me and they never quite sound the same.

NDRU said:

Strangely, I think his continued greatness as a performer may be hurting his creative process on record.

In concert he can ride the wave of energy, pushing even his new material to a place of greatness. How many people said they liked Life of the Party live? It's all so easy live.

But on record, that wave of energy is not there and what is left is the material. He cannot use sheer force of will to make an average song great. I think that is what he thinks will happen, but something is missing.

Back in the 80's the records seemed like a place where he was working stuff out in his life. They felt more important. Now he seems more confident and happy, and it translates to his performance, but the records can't carry the same level of energy, and they are missing the substance of a person going through the basic questions of life.

[Edited 6/27/11 12:20pm]

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

I met a 60 something year old classical pianist today, and I mentioned Prince and he was like "oh yes, great talent" I have met other older classical artist closer to their 70's who you would think could care less about P, and they all acknowledge his talent. I guess stuff like his current rant wont really matter in the long run, when folks look back at his legacy, and how he was one of the most respected musicians of all time. I agree what else can be said about his current mind set, even though I am going to continue to post about it, I like running my mouth.

in the scheme of things, a lot of people say a lot of things and most of them get forgotten

I saw a news story about Santana from a long time ago, about him recording at some new studio, and they asked if it was hard to be in a new studio. He said "no, it's like a woman in a kitchen, it's very easy"

That quote has not followed him around.

Wow.... that's funny.

He wants to earn money and control his output... now where have I heard this before.... some small company he was associated with had this idea.... hmmmm.......... oh yes, wasn't this WB idea too.

Didn't he say in the 90's that he didn't care abour earning money and he wanted to give his music away as long as he could keep putting it out but WB wanted to slow him down so everyone could make money.

Now he is seeing it the other way around...... dumb ass!

He's frustrated that music doesn't sell the way it did over a decade ago. People are buying new music, but the music industry in the 90s experienced a boom due to back catalog sales, and when people figured out how to rip a CD, they stopped buying what they already had. No one buys replacement copies anymore.

dalsh327 said:

He's frustrated that music doesn't sell the way it did over a decade ago. People are buying new music, but the music industry in the 90s experienced a boom due to back catalog sales, and when people figured out how to rip a CD, they stopped buying what they already had. No one buys replacement copies anymore.

That's a bit generalizing. I know people were still buying physical copies of Thriller for example lol I think a problem is they don't sell them (replacement copies) ENOUGH.