as opposed to Prince: the Multi-instrumentalist Time to separate these two threads!

Take away the amazing recordings, arrangements, image, performance, and you have compositions

Where does Prince stand purely as a songwriter? Certainly he has written his share of classics--Nothing Compares 2 U, Little Red Corvette, Kiss, I Feel 4 U, When U Were Mine, and others that have had life beyond Prince's own albums and have been covered successfully by other artists

Other songs like Le Grind, Eye No, Life Can Be So Nice, I Wonder U, Tamborine, Annie Christian, Everywhere, are almost unimaginable outside of the context of the recording.

He's clearly one of the all time great all around artists, what about his songwriting? Is he up there with Dylan, Stevie, The Beatles, ?

NDRU said:

Time to separate these two threads!

Good idea! I'm out of steam from rambling about it on the other thread, but most here don't seem to have the technical ability to separate a song from it's recording.

This list puts him pretty high, at #10. (A little higher than he deserves IMO, but maybe he gets extra points for prolificness.)

http://www.pastemagazine....-list.html

He doesn't crack the list of the top 100 most covered songwriters:

http://www.secondhandsong...vered#stat

As far as writing a groove, I don't think many can really touch him; outside of Clinton, Wonder and JB.

He is a master Groove-Smith, but groove is as much about record making and musicianship, as it is about composition.

He is an very good songwriter when he is at his best, which isn't as often as I'd like these days.

[Edited 6/16/11 14:26pm]

He wrote some nice songs, but in the end I'd say he's more of a great arranger than songwriter.

another disclaimer for this thread.

I don't think songwriting is the be-all end-all of musicianship. James Brown (who wrote plenty of classic songs himself) proved that a single good line sung over a great groove is as effective as Stevie's Living For the City

funkomatic said:

He wrote some nice songs, but in the end I'd say he's more of a great arranger than songwriter.

yes, and the arrangement is often a crucial part of the song.

sometimes I think a Prince song sucks, then I play/sing it myself on guitar and it sounds great, much better than I realized

One example--Mad Sex.

The Cross

One of my favorites, a powerful song with good lyrics. But it has no real hook and is pretty repetitive. Would it be as good covered by another artist? Or is it a Prince song exclusively?

NDRU said:

funkomatic said:

He wrote some nice songs, but in the end I'd say he's more of a great arranger than songwriter.

yes, and the arrangement is often a crucial part of the song.

Of course, but Prince has a tendency to go for his arrangement skills, although the initial song idea isn't really that substantial. If Prince wants to create another masterpiece, he has to make sure that both songwriting and arrangement are of superior quality.

I think that he is a fantastic songwriter.

Maybe less so now than he was in the 80's or whenever, but still.

I have no real opinion on whether he is as good as Dylan or The Beatles, i'm not getting into that one. I don't think it matters who he is as good as (or not), I just think that he is very good.

[Edited 6/16/11 15:08pm]

NDRU said:

The Cross

One of my favorites, a powerful song with good lyrics. But it has no real hook and is pretty repetitive. Would it be as good covered by another artist? Or is it a Prince song exclusively?

Does a good song need a real hook? Isn't it boring to always have a hook in a song? The cross works because of the climax thrown in there. I think a cover could work very well, because the climax isn't that rocking on record, not that it's bad, but there's still potential.

funkomatic said:

NDRU said:

yes, and the arrangement is often a crucial part of the song.

Of course, but Prince has a tendency to go for his arrangement skills, although the initial song idea isn't really that substantial. If Prince wants to create another masterpiece, he has to make sure that both songwriting and arrangement are of superior quality.

In general I would agree, but there are albums like The Black Album that I think are really good, but the songwriting is fairly minimal.

But being a fan of songwriting, yes I think that is mostly true.

funkomatic said:

NDRU said:

The Cross

One of my favorites, a powerful song with good lyrics. But it has no real hook and is pretty repetitive. Would it be as good covered by another artist? Or is it a Prince song exclusively?

Does a good song need a real hook? Isn't it boring to always have a hook in a song? The cross works because of the climax thrown in there. I think a cover could work very well, because the climax isn't that rocking on record, not that it's bad, but there's still potential.

I don't think a song needs a hook necessarily, no. I like the Cross as is.

I guess the point is perhaps a song like the cross would require a good performance to pull it off. As opposed to I Feel For You, which could convey it's beauty even if it is sung by a group of drunk people.

funkomatic said:

NDRU said:

The Cross

One of my favorites, a powerful song with good lyrics. But it has no real hook and is pretty repetitive. Would it be as good covered by another artist? Or is it a Prince song exclusively?

Does a good song need a real hook? Isn't it boring to always have a hook in a song? The cross works because of the climax thrown in there. I think a cover could work very well, because the climax isn't that rocking on record, not that it's bad, but there's still potential.

There are several covers of this song that work well. My favorite is the Blind Boys of Alabama version.

Forever in My Life

Another song that I like just fine, but I have a hard time imagining anyone but Prince singing it. Maybe that is just the way he wants it!

AhPook said:

funkomatic said:

Does a good song need a real hook? Isn't it boring to always have a hook in a song? The cross works because of the climax thrown in there. I think a cover could work very well, because the climax isn't that rocking on record, not that it's bad, but there's still potential.

There are several covers of this song that work well. My favorite is the Blind Boys of Alabama version.

I have not heard that. But I can definitely imagine a great cover of the song. It is minimal, but what is there is very very good, both melody and lyric, as well as overall feel.

More like let's describe how Prince is as a songwriter, arranger, lyricist and composer...

Break all four of those things DOWN... there's more to songwriting than lyrics and music, it's more complex than that...

TheDigitalGardener said:

I think that he is a fantastic songwriter.

Maybe less so now than he was in the 80's or whenever, but still.

I have no real opinion on whether he is as good as Dylan or The Beatles, i'm not getting into that one. I don't think it matters who he is as good as (or not), I just think that he is very good.

[Edited 6/16/11 15:08pm]

I agree. I don't know why it matters who is better or best. Prince has written many great songs - The Beautiful Ones, Sometimes It Snows In April, Purple Rain, etc... though I do think he's better at composing music than writing lyrics..

....

I also recall someone posting something on this site about Bono calling Prince one of the greatest composers of our time. I don't know where that fits in to this conversation, or if it even does, but just thought I'd mention it..

Timmy84 said: