Militant said:

Imaginative said:

NDRU: Apologies if I accidentally confused you with the statements made by "Militant." You clearly know your stuff, where Militant (ironic name) is more comfortable making judgements about music he's admittedly never really listened to. I'm fine letting this thread die, and never intended it to be a Prince vs. Beatles vs. Dylan thing. Militant kind of turned into that with his idiotic statement that Prince has written more great songs than any singular living artist. His statement went from idiotic to moronic when he himself admitted to never really listening to either The Beatles or Dylan. (There is a difference between hearing and listening.) [Edited 6/13/11 21:06pm]

Excuse me? I never said either of those things. I think that was Gray or someone else. I'm EXTREMELY familiar with both The Beatles and Dylan. And yes, I still believe, song-for-song, Prince has more great songs. So I'm not making blanket judgements on stuff I don't know. You're mixing up different statements from different people who just all happen to prefer Prince.

Militant stated that he does not and will not listen to ANY music influenced by Dylan or The Beatles.

I most certainly did not.

[Edited 6/15/11 17:44pm]

"Greycap23" came in right after your initial statement, and you're correct that I got the statements of the two of you confused. For that I apologize.

That said, and not to beat a dead horse, I think we can debate what a great song is, and I think when you say, "Prince has written more great songs..." what you really mean is, "Prince has written more of my favorite songs."

While the criteria for a great song can be debated, I think most will agree that one of the tell-tale signs of a "great song" is how often it's been covered by other artists, across time and genres. In this area, Prince cannot and will never compete with Dylan and McCartney. As a matter of fact, given the depth of Prince's catalog, I find it interesting that there are not much more cover versions out there.

Somewhat related, here is a list that places Prince #10 on a list of the greatest songwriters:

http://www.pastemagazine....-list.html

Not that I consider this list definitive, but I do think it's an interesting read and more right than wrong.

If we're looking at simply most covered songwriters, Prince doesn't crack the top 100:

http://www.secondhandsong...vered#stat

[Edited 6/15/11 18:03pm]

NDRU said:

Imaginative said:

It occurred to me that I actually seem to have gotten all of the orgers to at least agree on one thing; Prince essentially plays 4 instruments! What they don't agree on is which ones he's best at, and his level of skill on each.

all that arguing and you are right, we pretty much all agree on that point--the point of this thread

But we have gone multiple pages and I still haven't seen the source of the 40 instrument statement? When did Prince or any of his reps ever say that?

In 30 plus years, the most I've heard claimed is 27.

Whether the actual number is 27 or 4 wouldn't he still be a multi instrumentalist? If so, then why would that be a myth?

Prince IS a multi instrumentalist. He plays at least 4 instruments very well. And, like I said before, one of the few multi instrumentalists I know that sound like a band, is able to jam on them, and approaches each instrument in a different way.

babynoz said:

NDRU said:

all that arguing and you are right, we pretty much all agree on that point--the point of this thread

But we have gone multiple pages and I still haven't seen the source of the 40 instrument statement? When did Prince or any of his reps ever say that?

In 30 plus years, the most I've heard claimed is 27.

Whether the actual number is 27 or 4 wouldn't he still be a multi instrumentalist? If so, then why would that be a myth?

Ugh....this has all been biased and bastardised to support what amounts to quite a conceited point!

Narrowing it down to 4 instruments is ridiculous - what were they? Piano, Guitar, Bass and Percussion, I believe. The use of the umbrella "percussion" in particular, highlights the OP's purpose in being so minimal - to support their own position.

Percussion itself covers HUNDREDS of entirely different instruments, each with their own skill to play. Just because you can play a drum kit, doesn't mean you can play congas, just because you can play congas doesn't make you an expert on darbuka and certainly none of these mean you can in any way play tabla.....do you see what I'm getting at?

And, whilst there is less scope for guitar and bass (albeit differences between acoustic and electric) there is still scope for piano. Being a "proper" piano player is an entirely different skillset to being a "proper" Clavinet player, which is still different from being a Rhodes player and is still different from being a synth player.

Saying that its a myth because its always been said he plays 40 instrument (actually, I always thought 27 was the number bandied around) and he actually only plays 4 is ludicrous (mainly because that STILL makes him a multi-instrumentalist and a brilliant one at that). What next - Mount Everest is no longer a mountain because we proposed (without any genuine evidence) that it is 10 metres shorter than we thought?!

EyeJester7 said:

gemari77 said:

I loooove Prince as a musician and instrumentalist!!! I admire his musicality more than his technical ability....

I do think some fans overstate Prince's ability. I was on a Bass Forum a while back, and some P fans were declaring that P is a better bass player than Rhonda Smith. I stayed out of it (like I probably should be doing now, lol)... but, I thought that was ridiculous. How could Prince be a better bass player than someone who has devoted their entire life to focusing on just the Bass?

I think that's a thing amongst some Prince fans, and I don't fault anybody. I've heard for years and years that Prince was a master on several instruments. Sometimes if you hear it enough you start to believe it and it becomes a common belief.

I think Prince is really good and naturally talented--- I can't picture him with a book and a metronome doing technical exercises for 8 hours a day. He's just a good, naturally gifted player on several instruments (like McCartney...try playing Martha My Dear or Lady Madonna on piano). I think Prince is the type where if you put him in a room with a new instrument, by the end of the day he'll have gotten the basics down to the point where he could come up with a cool tune. But, you can't compare that to someone who woodsheds, goes to music schools, studies the theory, and concentrates solely on those instruments that Prince is supposed to be at such a 'high level'.

But, you know what? I don't care. I'm a fan of what he does and I think he would be an MVP in anybody's Pop/Funk/Rock band. The technical virtuoso monster isn't always the guy you want anyway.

No hate or jealousy.

- TOTALLY AGREE! That sums up my viewing of this thread...lol

that all sounds very rational but the musicians who talk smack are a pet peeve of mine. It's easy for anyone to talk bad about other people, it's easy to find something to criticize and it speaks volumes about who they are as people and how satisfied they are with their lives. I often say I don't like musicians, try to avoid them as much as possible for many reasons. First, they're are just plain stupid, especially the rockers, all the flakiness, drugs attitude, but classical musicians are a very close runner up in the asshole department, they are convinced no other music counts but classical, they are really brainwashed. then, because most are broke, poor, failed or whatever they make most of their money teaching other suckers who'll buy their bullshit. I've often said, pretty much anyone can get taught by the book about music and theory if they start early enough they can get that overrated technical precision but people don't want that shit enmasse, they don't want that, which is why you guys are broke. The masses of people want songs, a sound, an image, art, like it or not and most musicians don't have any of those other things to contribute. I shouldn't belabor the topic but you see how I feel, i could say a lot more but i'll hold my tongue. Also, i recall Prince being quoted by Bernadette anderson that if he failed in pop music, he would go to school for music, just think of the loss that would have been, just another useless teacher teaching crap that has little relation to organic music. I'm glad Prince has been successful in this field, moreso than 99.9 percent of rock starts and 99.99999999999 percent of all the haters and wannabees.

Mindflux said:

babynoz said:

But we have gone multiple pages and I still haven't seen the source of the 40 instrument statement? When did Prince or any of his reps ever say that?

In 30 plus years, the most I've heard claimed is 27.

Whether the actual number is 27 or 4 wouldn't he still be a multi instrumentalist? If so, then why would that be a myth?

Ugh....this has all been biased and bastardised to support what amounts to quite a conceited point!

Narrowing it down to 4 instruments is ridiculous - what were they? Piano, Guitar, Bass and Percussion, I believe. The use of the umbrella "percussion" in particular, highlights the OP's purpose in being so minimal - to support their own position.

Percussion itself covers HUNDREDS of entirely different instruments, each with their own skill to play. Just because you can play a drum kit, doesn't mean you can play congas, just because you can play congas doesn't make you an expert on darbuka and certainly none of these mean you can in any way play tabla.....do you see what I'm getting at?

And, whilst there is less scope for guitar and bass (albeit differences between acoustic and electric) there is still scope for piano. Being a "proper" piano player is an entirely different skillset to being a "proper" Clavinet player, which is still different from being a Rhodes player and is still different from being a synth player.

Saying that its a myth because its always been said he plays 40 instrument (actually, I always thought 27 was the number bandied around) and he actually only plays 4 is ludicrous (mainly because that STILL makes him a multi-instrumentalist and a brilliant one at that). What next - Mount Everest is no longer a mountain because we proposed (without any genuine evidence) that it is 10 metres shorter than we thought?!

Exactly!

babynoz said:

NDRU said:

all that arguing and you are right, we pretty much all agree on that point--the point of this thread

Whether the actual number is 27 or 4 wouldn't he still be a multi instrumentalist? If so, then why would that be a myth?

The premise of the thread—that he plays four instruments—in in my original post. The title of the thread was designed to be controversial to lure people in and get them involved with the thread! Guess what? It worked!! I never said that it was a myth that he plays more than one instrument.

See? It was kind of like a bait and switch! Sorry, but I'm a marketer. But look at all of the fun we've had!

[Edited 6/15/11 19:12pm]

babynoz said:

NDRU said:

all that arguing and you are right, we pretty much all agree on that point--the point of this thread

But we have gone multiple pages and I still haven't seen the source of the 40 instrument statement? When did Prince or any of his reps ever say that?

In 30 plus years, the most I've heard claimed is 27.

Whether the actual number is 27 or 4 wouldn't he still be a multi instrumentalist? If so, then why would that be a myth?

The myth of Prince: The Multi-Instrumentalist is that he plays 27 (or 40 or whatever) instruments.

They are not claiming it is a myth that he is a multi-instrumentalist

NDRU said:

babynoz said:

But we have gone multiple pages and I still haven't seen the source of the 40 instrument statement? When did Prince or any of his reps ever say that?

In 30 plus years, the most I've heard claimed is 27.

Whether the actual number is 27 or 4 wouldn't he still be a multi instrumentalist? If so, then why would that be a myth?

The myth of Prince: The Multi-Instrumentalist is that he plays 27 (or 40 or whatever) instruments.

They are not claiming it is a myth that he is a multi-instrumentalist

Really? In that case how should I interpret this line?

"So where is this multi-instrumentalist everyone talks about?"

I can answer that, being that I wrote it. You should interpret it in context:

FROM THE ORIGINAL THREAD: "I remember hearing throughout the 80's things like, "Prince can play 40 instruments."... I can safely say I have only heard or seen him play four instruments; guitar, bass, piano and percussion.... So where is this multi-instrumentalist everyone talks about? I want to hear Prince wail on a trumpet solo, or play a wicked violin part!"

Meaning, where is the multi-instumentalist that everyone talks about playing 40... or 27... or how ever many instruments. See? Let me know if you need help interpreting any other threads.

babynoz said:

NDRU said:

Really? In that case how should I interpret this line?

"So where is this multi-instrumentalist everyone talks about?"

[Edited 6/15/11 20:59pm]

Imaginative said:

I can answer that, being that I wrote it. You should interpret it in context:

FROM THE ORIGINAL THREAD: "I remember hearing throughout the 80's things like, "Prince can play 40 instruments."... I can safely say I have only heard or seen him play four instruments; guitar, bass, piano and percussion.... So where is this multi-instrumentalist everyone talks about? I want to hear Prince wail on a trumpet solo, or play a wicked violin part!"

Meaning, where is the multi-instumentalist that everyone talks about playing 40... or 27... or how ever many instruments. See? Let me know if you need help interpreting any other threads.

[Edited 6/15/11 20:59pm]

No thanks...that's enough hyperbole for one night.

babynoz said:

NDRU said:

Really? In that case how should I interpret this line?

"So where is this multi-instrumentalist everyone talks about?"

I don't know, maybe: where is THIS multi-intrumentalist (the one who plays 27-40 instruments)?

Warner lied on his age, and they exaggerated his multi instrumentalist skills a bit for publicity

Prince can play well on physical instruments like

Guitar (electric, acoustic)

Bass Guitar

Keys (Piano, and synth which requires different feel and understanding of it's role and modulation features)

Drum (plays also congas, bongo and other percussion that requieres a different technique)

He is also good at programming drums, which I consider performing music with the brain.

He might as well also play several other instruments on an average musician level, but his musicality, timing and physical control however would make him take advantage of his strength in an instrument, making it look and sound like he is better on the instrument than others who actually is better. This has alot to do with ear, more than technique. A couple of good ears can play alot better than a couple of fast hands. If combined, you'll get something real nice

Whe you're on elite level with an instrument, it shouldn't take much time getting pretty good at something similar. Since Prince has always been recording alot on his own, he has always needed to put his playing in a context of producing and playing well with each instrument he's using.

NDRU said:

babynoz said:

But we have gone multiple pages and I still haven't seen the source of the 40 instrument statement? When did Prince or any of his reps ever say that?

In 30 plus years, the most I've heard claimed is 27.

Whether the actual number is 27 or 4 wouldn't he still be a multi instrumentalist? If so, then why would that be a myth?

The myth of Prince: The Multi-Instrumentalist is that he plays 27 (or 40 or whatever) instruments.

They are not claiming it is a myth that he is a multi-instrumentalist

But its still not a myth - did you see what I wrote above? Just because the OP has decided to determine that we should only classify what instruments Prince plays by taking them to their most base level (i.e. Piano or Percussion), doesn't mean that Prince only plays 4 instruments. What the OP has done is basically the same as if we were to take a trip to the zoo and someone says "Wow, look at all the hundreds of species of animals in this place" and the OP would reply "Hmm, all I see are mammals and reptiles".

You cannot say Prince plays "Percussion" and classify that as one instrument. Any musician ought to know this (unless they have only ever played one instrument themself and have no understanding or experience of playing with other musicians). If you were to make a record and on one track you played electric bass and on another you played upright, you'd be entitled to claim you have played different instruments - they may both perform the function of bass, but they are entirely different instruments to play and in how they sound.

I play percussion, but I would feel that a disservice to what I actually record. I can play full-kit, darbuka, djembe, bongo, conga, cajon, timbale, shaker all to a decent level and I dabble on tabla (though, I wouldn't say I was a competent tabla player - can hold a rhythm, but don't play them "properly"). That's 8 definite instruments that I would say I play and one I dabble in. I also play piano, synths, guitar (acoustic and electric) and bass (electric). I have no problem saying I play a dozen instruments.

That said, I don't list everything I play on my albums (its not entirely necessary) and the only time it was done that I'm aware of with Prince was for his DEBUT album which, of course, would benefit it with some hype. But.....is it really hype? Because the fact remains all 27 instruments that are listed on that sleeve, in spite of how you would prefer to classify each instrument, were played and recorded by one man and gave us our first glimpse and hint as to what the world of Prince sounds like.

I don't think cover songs are a good example. What about sampling in hip-hop? Prince has been sampled thousands more times than Dylan or The Beatles. One could just as easily use that as an argument. Plus, Prince's songs are harder to cover than either Dylan or The Beatles. Anyone can cover a Dylan or Beatles song with simply a guitar, or the traditional guitar/bass/drums combination.

Can you do that easily with say, "Shockadelica", "Erotic City", hell any song with the Minneapolis sound? No, you can't, because the songs are more complex musically in terms of the instrumentation used and the way to get that sound. My 10 year old nephew can sit down with an acoustic guitar and sing "Hey Jude" because it's incredibly basic. I'm not commenting on whether that's a good or a bad thing as there's clearly an argument for both, but I'm simply making the point that there are more Beatles covers simply because their songs are much easier to cover. This point is further proven by the fact that the most covered Prince songs are the ones that are the easiest to play or the most basic musically (ie, Kiss). Plus, The Beatles have 20 years between their biggest hits and Prince's biggest hits, so naturally there will be more covers. That's just obvious. And they chased commercial hits more so than Prince did. There's other commercial artists who have had their songs covered more than Prince - but nobody would sit here and say their songs are better on that basis.

Furthermore - Prince has more songs than any other songwriter in Rolling Stone's Top 500 songs of all time. The Beatles are the only "act" that has more, but looking at their songs, some were John's, some were Paul's and there was at least one or two by George. And all 4 of them played the instruments on all the songs and they were all produced by George Martin.

On the Prince songs in there, he played all the instruments AND produced them, and wrote them, on his own. That was kinda what I was getting at in my ORIGINAL statement which you disagreed with. If you look back, I said "There is no singular artist alive with more great songs"

On that basis you can't say "The Beatles", you can only say Paul, or John. Neither of whom, if you look at songs purely written ON THEIR OWN, have more great songs than Prince. And while Dylan has a lot of good songs, almost all of them fall into the same category. Prince has great pop songs, great R&B songs, great funk songs, great rock songs, great acoustic songs, great instrumental tracks, great electro songs...... etc etc etc

[Edited 6/16/11 6:36am]

Militant said:

I don't think cover songs are a good example. What about sampling in hip-hop? Prince has been sampled thousands more times than Dylan or The Beatles. One could just as easily use that as an argument. Plus, Prince's songs are harder to cover than either Dylan or The Beatles. Anyone can cover a Dylan or Beatles song with simply a guitar, or the traditional guitar/bass/drums combination.

Can you do that easily with say, "Shockadelica", "Erotic City", hell any song with the Minneapolis sound? No, you can't, because the songs are more complex musically in terms of the instrumentation used and the way to get that sound.

Furthermore - Prince has more songs than any other songwriter in Rolling Stone's Top 500 songs of all time. The Beatles are the only "act" that has more, but looking at their songs, some were John's, some were Paul's and there was at least one or two by George. And all 4 of them played the instruments on all the songs and they were all produced by George Martin.

On the Prince songs in there, he played all the instruments AND produced them, and wrote them, on his own. That was kinda what I was getting at in my ORIGINAL statement which you disagreed with. If you look back, I said "There is no singular artist alive with more great songs"

On that basis you can't say "The Beatles", you can only say Paul, or John. Neither of whom, if you look at songs purely written ON THEIR OWN, have more great songs than Prince. And while Dylan has a lot of good songs, almost all of them fall into the same category. Prince has great pop songs, great R&B songs, great funk songs, great rock songs, great acoustic songs, great instrumental tracks, great electro songs...... etc etc etc

............agreed......and NONE of your comments are a myth.

They are as real of Prince's 33 year catalogue.

Militant said:

I don't think cover songs are a good example. What about sampling in hip-hop? Prince has been sampled thousands more times than Dylan or The Beatles. One could just as easily use that as an argument. Plus, Prince's songs are harder to cover than either Dylan or The Beatles. Anyone can cover a Dylan or Beatles song with simply a guitar, or the traditional guitar/bass/drums combination.

Can you do that easily with say, "Shockadelica", "Erotic City", hell any song with the Minneapolis sound? No, you can't, because the songs are more complex musically in terms of the instrumentation used and the way to get that sound. My 10 year old nephew can sit down with an acoustic guitar and sing "Hey Jude" because it's incredibly basic. I'm not commenting on whether that's a good or a bad thing as there's clearly an argument for both, but I'm simply making the point that there are more Beatles covers simply because their songs are much easier to cover. This point is further proven by the fact that the most covered Prince songs are the ones that are the easiest to play or the most basic musically (ie, Kiss). Plus, The Beatles have 20 years between their biggest hits and Prince's biggest hits, so naturally there will be more covers. That's just obvious. And they chased commercial hits more so than Prince did. There's other commercial artists who have had their songs covered more than Prince - but nobody would sit here and say their songs are better on that basis.

Furthermore - Prince has more songs than any other songwriter in Rolling Stone's Top 500 songs of all time. The Beatles are the only "act" that has more, but looking at their songs, some were John's, some were Paul's and there was at least one or two by George. And all 4 of them played the instruments on all the songs and they were all produced by George Martin.

On the Prince songs in there, he played all the instruments AND produced them, and wrote them, on his own. That was kinda what I was getting at in my ORIGINAL statement which you disagreed with. If you look back, I said "There is no singular artist alive with more great songs"

On that basis you can't say "The Beatles", you can only say Paul, or John. Neither of whom, if you look at songs purely written ON THEIR OWN, have more great songs than Prince. And while Dylan has a lot of good songs, almost all of them fall into the same category. Prince has great pop songs, great R&B songs, great funk songs, great rock songs, great acoustic songs, great instrumental tracks, great electro songs...... etc etc etc

[Edited 6/16/11 6:36am]

I think McCartney definitely has Prince beat for number of songs that hit (charted?), if you list all his authored songs, with The Beatles and solo. He's released an orchestral album, dabbled in all genres, and released albums of him playing all instruments and producing.

THESE ARE JUST THE ONES THAT HIT #1!:

#1 songs written by McCartney when he was with The Beatles (These are just the ones that hit #1 with The Beatles):

1960's:

“Can’t Buy Me Love” - McCartney
“Yesterday” - McCartney
“Paperback Writer” - McCartney
“Yellow Submarine” - McCartney
“Eleanor Rigby” - McCartney
“Penny Lane” - McCartney
“Hello, Goodbye” - McCartney
“Lady Madonna” - McCartney
“Hey Jude” - McCartney
“Get Back” - McCartney
“Let It Be” - McCartney
“The Long and Winding Road” - McCartney

solo 70's onward:

"Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey" with Linda McCartney (1971).
"My Love" with Wings (1973).
"Band On the Run" with Wings (1974).
"Listen to What the Man Said" with Wings (1975).
"Silly Love Songs" with Wings (1976).
"With a Little Luck" with Wings (1978).
"Coming Up" (live version) with Wings (1980)



Let's not forget he charted with duets with two legends in the early 80's as well:
"Ebony and Ivory" hit #1
"Say Say Say" hit #1

[Edited 6/16/11 7:42am]

ufoclub said:

I think McCartney definitely has Prince beat for number of songs that hit (charted?), if you list all his authored songs, with The Beatles and solo. He's released an orchestral album, dabbled in all genres,

Please point me 2 His R&B, Funk, Hiphop, House, dance, gospel, electro, blues, and jazz records. I want 2 check it ASAP.

Graycap23 said:

ufoclub said:

I think McCartney definitely has Prince beat for number of songs that hit (charted?), if you list all his authored songs, with The Beatles and solo. He's released an orchestral album, dabbled in all genres,

Please point me 2 His R&B, Funk, Hiphop, House, dance, gospel, electro, blues, and jazz records. I want 2 check it ASAP.

Really? He's had songs that are a pastiche of all genres, so have The Beatles. McCartney even released an orchestral album. So did Billy Joel who worships McCartney and and has covered all genres himself. You can't even tell it's the same guy singing with these two on some songs. They know how to change their styles. Their legacy and universal success kind of proves it too.

Got to Get You Into My Life - R&B

Maybe I'm Amazed - Gospel

oh wait let's get more recent (He's put out so much stuff, I haven't heard it all):

"Electric Arguements" 2008. "Paul McCartney surfaces with a masterpiece of experimental music and great vocals that fuse ambient, hard rock, blues, trance, ballads and electronic music."

[Edited 6/16/11 7:55am]

ufoclub said:

Graycap23 said:

Please point me 2 His R&B, Funk, Hiphop, House, dance, gospel, electro, blues, and jazz records. I want 2 check it ASAP.

Really? He's had songs that are a pastiche of all genres, so have The Beatles. McCartney even released an orchestral album. So did Billy Joel who worships McCartney and and has covered all genres himself. You can't even tell it's the same guy singing with these two on some songs. They know how to change their styles. Their legacy and universal success kind of proves it too.

Really............I'm waiting.

Graycap23 said:

ufoclub said:

Really? He's had songs that are a pastiche of all genres, so have The Beatles. McCartney even released an orchestral album. So did Billy Joel who worships McCartney and and has covered all genres himself. You can't even tell it's the same guy singing with these two on some songs. They know how to change their styles. Their legacy and universal success kind of proves it too.

Really............I'm waiting.

Just listen to "Wild Honey Pie"

then listen to "Oh Darling"

then "Temporary Secretary"

then "Get Back"

the reggae break in "Live and Let Die"

then any orchestral track off of "Ecce Cor Meum"

check out this WIRED article about the dance/electronic influence of the Beatles (1966) track "Tomorrow Never Knows" http://www.wired.com/unde...ver-knows/

[Edited 6/16/11 8:08am]

Mindflux said:

NDRU said:

The myth of Prince: The Multi-Instrumentalist is that he plays 27 (or 40 or whatever) instruments.

They are not claiming it is a myth that he is a multi-instrumentalist

But its still not a myth - did you see what I wrote above? Just because the OP has decided to determine that we should only classify what instruments Prince plays by taking them to their most base level (i.e. Piano or Percussion), doesn't mean that Prince only plays 4 instruments. What the OP has done is basically the same as if we were to take a trip to the zoo and someone says "Wow, look at all the hundreds of species of animals in this place" and the OP would reply "Hmm, all I see are mammals and reptiles".

You cannot say Prince plays "Percussion" and classify that as one instrument. Any musician ought to know this (unless they have only ever played one instrument themself and have no understanding or experience of playing with other musicians). If you were to make a record and on one track you played electric bass and on another you played upright, you'd be entitled to claim you have played different instruments - they may both perform the function of bass, but they are entirely different instruments to play and in how they sound.

I play percussion, but I would feel that a disservice to what I actually record. I can play full-kit, darbuka, djembe, bongo, conga, cajon, timbale, shaker all to a decent level and I dabble on tabla (though, I wouldn't say I was a competent tabla player - can hold a rhythm, but don't play them "properly"). That's 8 definite instruments that I would say I play and one I dabble in. I also play piano, synths, guitar (acoustic and electric) and bass (electric). I have no problem saying I play a dozen instruments.

That said, I don't list everything I play on my albums (its not entirely necessary) and the only time it was done that I'm aware of with Prince was for his DEBUT album which, of course, would benefit it with some hype. But.....is it really hype? Because the fact remains all 27 instruments that are listed on that sleeve, in spite of how you would prefer to classify each instrument, were played and recorded by one man and gave us our first glimpse and hint as to what the world of Prince sounds like.

i gotta respectfully disagree on this one .. i suppose its all a matter of opinion but i find it a bit of bullshit to market or brag that you can play 27 or 40 instruments as tho its some amazing feat of genius when many of the instruements are essentially the same or derivative from other instruments .. while piano, organ, harpsicord and even xylophone all have subtle differences .. there is no doubt that once you learn the basics of one you can apply them to all very easily without having to "woodshed" just to play them competently .. same goes for guitar, electric and acoustic .. and bass for that matter .. all the same tunings but just slight adjustments

now if prince could play fretless stand up bass or could actually finger pick something on acoustic guitar i might give a little extra respect for stepping up his game .. but i've never heard him do either .. i think an instrument at very least should have a different tuning before it can be considered as a RESPECTABLE achievement in musical knowledge .. or if prince is going to brag he should actually be able to do something significant, like finger picking on acoustic, instead of just hitting a different sound on the keyboard and pretending its a whole new instrument

a banjo or mandolin or violin might qualify .. and certainly any wind instrument as most of them have very different tunings and fingerings and require a notable change in technique just to make a sound come out the end of the horn ..

the percussion arguement is a load .. basically if u have decent rhythem, they just aren't that different of an instrument .. playing the full kit is the most challenging .. sure a hand drum might have a slightly different technique but to give it credit on a list of 27 - 40 instruments is kinda lame

i would be more impressed if prince did something with brushes on a drum kit than if he can play a triangle in time .. listing these instruments is a joke .. most 3rd graders learn this shit in music class .. are we going to list that prince can play the "recorder" and the "wood block" now too? .. how about the cow bell?

when prince picks up a trumpet i'll give him a little more respect but until then its called blowing smoke up our asses

ufoclub said:

Graycap23 said:

Really............I'm waiting.

Just listen to "Wild Honey Pie"

then listen to "Oh Darling"

then "Temporary Secretary"

then "Get Back"

the reggae break in "Live and Let Die"

then any orchestral track off of "Ecce Cor Meum"

check out this WIRED article about the dance/electronic influence of the Beatles (1966) track "Tomorrow Never Knows" http://www.wired.com/unde...ver-knows/

[Edited 6/16/11 8:08am]

Kool.

Thanks.

Militant said:

I don't think cover songs are a good example. What about sampling in hip-hop? Prince has been sampled thousands more times than Dylan or The Beatles. One could just as easily use that as an argument. Plus, Prince's songs are harder to cover than either Dylan or The Beatles. Anyone can cover a Dylan or Beatles song with simply a guitar, or the traditional guitar/bass/drums combination.

Can you do that easily with say, "Shockadelica", "Erotic City", hell any song with the Minneapolis sound? No, you can't, because the songs are more complex musically in terms of the instrumentation used and the way to get that sound. My 10 year old nephew can sit down with an acoustic guitar and sing "Hey Jude" because it's incredibly basic. I'm not commenting on whether that's a good or a bad thing as there's clearly an argument for both, but I'm simply making the point that there are more Beatles covers simply because their songs are much easier to cover. This point is further proven by the fact that the most covered Prince songs are the ones that are the easiest to play or the most basic musically (ie, Kiss). Plus, The Beatles have 20 years between their biggest hits and Prince's biggest hits, so naturally there will be more covers. That's just obvious. And they chased commercial hits more so than Prince did. There's other commercial artists who have had their songs covered more than Prince - but nobody would sit here and say their songs are better on that basis.

Furthermore - Prince has more songs than any other songwriter in Rolling Stone's Top 500 songs of all time. The Beatles are the only "act" that has more, but looking at their songs, some were John's, some were Paul's and there was at least one or two by George. And all 4 of them played the instruments on all the songs and they were all produced by George Martin.

On the Prince songs in there, he played all the instruments AND produced them, and wrote them, on his own. That was kinda what I was getting at in my ORIGINAL statement which you disagreed with. If you look back, I said "There is no singular artist alive with more great songs"

On that basis you can't say "The Beatles", you can only say Paul, or John. Neither of whom, if you look at songs purely written ON THEIR OWN, have more great songs than Prince. And while Dylan has a lot of good songs, almost all of them fall into the same category. Prince has great pop songs, great R&B songs, great funk songs, great rock songs, great acoustic songs, great instrumental tracks, great electro songs...... etc etc etc

[Edited 6/16/11 6:36am]

i don't think prince songs are more complicated at all .. beatles songs are very very complicated .. people cover them because they are so popular that everyone buys the sheet music .. prince songs like "shockadelica" are very simple and only have one or two guitar chords .. they are just mostly drum machine .. so of course if u take that away there isn't as much song left to bother with .. and it doesnt transfer to guitar as well because its just not that kind of song

the fact is that even prince does not cover prince very well .. and that is a testament to the songs reliance on his drum machine and studio wizardry .. lets face it .. britney spears wouldn't sell if not for all the special effects in the studio .. i can respect the studio work but not the song itself .. if a song is all beat than its only half a song and prince has a lot of songs that are just a beat and a fun sexy shout out for a chorus .. its fine but doesn't make it better or more complicated than those beatles songs with 27-40 different jazz chords in them, lush orchestral arrangements with real strings and horns, not synths, guitar solos with counter melodies all the way thru every song .. melodic bass lines that drive the entire song even if it was written on guitar or piano .. and of course the beautiful harmonies that prince emulates so often

my opinion is that others have written more great songs than prince but that is subjective to each persons taste and bar for what an excellent song really is .. for me prince lyrics are really underwhelming when we speak of the greatest songs of all time .. its also the reason he is not covered more often and he is just not that when popular compared to the best music that is out there

TrevorAyer said:

Mindflux said:

But its still not a myth - did you see what I wrote above? Just because the OP has decided to determine that we should only classify what instruments Prince plays by taking them to their most base level (i.e. Piano or Percussion), doesn't mean that Prince only plays 4 instruments. What the OP has done is basically the same as if we were to take a trip to the zoo and someone says "Wow, look at all the hundreds of species of animals in this place" and the OP would reply "Hmm, all I see are mammals and reptiles".

You cannot say Prince plays "Percussion" and classify that as one instrument. Any musician ought to know this (unless they have only ever played one instrument themself and have no understanding or experience of playing with other musicians). If you were to make a record and on one track you played electric bass and on another you played upright, you'd be entitled to claim you have played different instruments - they may both perform the function of bass, but they are entirely different instruments to play and in how they sound.

I play percussion, but I would feel that a disservice to what I actually record. I can play full-kit, darbuka, djembe, bongo, conga, cajon, timbale, shaker all to a decent level and I dabble on tabla (though, I wouldn't say I was a competent tabla player - can hold a rhythm, but don't play them "properly"). That's 8 definite instruments that I would say I play and one I dabble in. I also play piano, synths, guitar (acoustic and electric) and bass (electric). I have no problem saying I play a dozen instruments.

That said, I don't list everything I play on my albums (its not entirely necessary) and the only time it was done that I'm aware of with Prince was for his DEBUT album which, of course, would benefit it with some hype. But.....is it really hype? Because the fact remains all 27 instruments that are listed on that sleeve, in spite of how you would prefer to classify each instrument, were played and recorded by one man and gave us our first glimpse and hint as to what the world of Prince sounds like.

i gotta respectfully disagree on this one .. i suppose its all a matter of opinion but i find it a bit of bullshit to market or brag that you can play 27 or 40 instruments as tho its some amazing feat of genius when many of the instruements are essentially the same or derivative from other instruments .. while piano, organ, harpsicord and even xylophone all have subtle differences .. there is no doubt that once you learn the basics of one you can apply them to all very easily without having to "woodshed" just to play them competently .. same goes for guitar, electric and acoustic .. and bass for that matter .. all the same tunings but just slight adjustments

now if prince could play fretless stand up bass or could actually finger pick something on acoustic guitar i might give a little extra respect for stepping up his game .. but i've never heard him do either .. i think an instrument at very least should have a different tuning before it can be considered as a RESPECTABLE achievement in musical knowledge .. or if prince is going to brag he should actually be able to do something significant, like finger picking on acoustic, instead of just hitting a different sound on the keyboard and pretending its a whole new instrument

a banjo or mandolin or violin might qualify .. and certainly any wind instrument as most of them have very different tunings and fingerings and require a notable change in technique just to make a sound come out the end of the horn ..

the percussion arguement is a load .. basically if u have decent rhythem, they just aren't that different of an instrument .. playing the full kit is the most challenging .. sure a hand drum might have a slightly different technique but to give it credit on a list of 27 - 40 instruments is kinda lame

i would be more impressed if prince did something with brushes on a drum kit than if he can play a triangle in time .. listing these instruments is a joke .. most 3rd graders learn this shit in music class .. are we going to list that prince can play the "recorder" and the "wood block" now too? .. how about the cow bell?

when prince picks up a trumpet i'll give him a little more respect but until then its called blowing smoke up our asses

We'll have to agree to diagree then.

But please don't try and argue with me about things that you don't know anything about. The percussion argument in particular. Yes, anyone with rhythm can pick up a drum and tap out a beat (certain drums at least), but can they actually PLAY the instrument? That's a different thing entirely. Anyone can pick up a guitar and strum a basic chord - that doesn't make them a guitar player, does it? But there are massive differences between playing a darbuka and tabla - a WORLD of difference and your comments go to prove that you are no percussionist.

And even in terms of the keyboards Prince lists - can you tell what would be a key difference in your approach to playing an ARP Soloist to an Oberheim 4-voice? Can you? If you can't, how can we believe your assertion that its "just hitting a different sound on the keyboard and pretending its a whole new instrument". And your suggestion that a meritable reason would be "different tuning" is not so clear cut. If he tunes the guitar to DADGAD, is he now playing a new instrument? No. If he decides to use an Oud, in place of the guitar, that's playing a new instrument - yet it is still a string instrument with a fretboard and is plucked, picked or strummed.

By the way, Prince has played brushes on kit (on For You, no less). But I didn't enter in to this debate because I care about what impresses you, its about the misinformation being provided on what should be considered as a different instrument.

For the record, it has never mattered to me how many instruments he plays, I still just marvel that, on many occasions, he is the sole person playing, composing, arranging and producing that sound to a level that few have ever achieved. That IS impressive and is not diminished by jimmy-nothings who think they know better.

But, hey, lets go with the "Prince is a fraud and nowhere near as talented as he led me to believe" scenario, if that somehow makes people feel better for entirely unfathomable reasons

Out of interest, what instruments do you play Trevor? I've had a listen to your music and kinda like the vibe and where its coming from.

And its because you do what you do that I find it so surprising that you get engaged in these debates siding with the whole its bullshit/he's not that talented kinda stuff. Surely, as musicians, we just go in to the studio and do what we do, be who we are? None of the musicians in your band are particularly accomplished, but you still make your music and it is appreciated by people. None of the musicians in my band are as talented as Prince and we listen to a hell of a lot of music that is "better" than ours, but it doesn't stop us either.

Imaginative said:

babynoz said:

Whether the actual number is 27 or 4 wouldn't he still be a multi instrumentalist? If so, then why would that be a myth?

The premise of the thread—that he plays four instruments—in in my original post. The title of the thread was designed to be controversial to lure people in and get them involved with the thread! Guess what? It worked!! I never said that it was a myth that he plays more than one instrument.

See? It was kind of like a bait and switch! Sorry, but I'm a marketer. But look at all of the fun we've had!

[Edited 6/15/11 19:12pm]

Seriously, I just read through this thread and got tired of it real fast. I just filed it under "SHIT".

Graycap23 said:

Please point me 2 His R&B, Funk, Hiphop, House, dance, gospel, electro, blues, and jazz records. I want 2 check it ASAP.

Wow, "Mr. Jones," you do sound smarter when you refrain from speaking. I can name tons, but for the sake of time (and knowing full well that you won't actually seek out any of these records) I'll stick to one or to per:

R&B: Got to Get You Into My Life

Funk: What's That You're Doing?, Coming Up

Electro/House: The Fireman LPs

Blues: Why Don't We Do It In the Road?, Man We Was Lonely, Run Devil Run LP, tons actually.

Jazz: Honey Pie

PLUS:

Classical: Liverpool Oratorio, Standing Stone LPs

World Music: Tons of tracks both with the Beatles and Solo

Art Muzak: Thrillington LP

Orchestral Rock: Back to the Egg LP

Punk: Temporary Secretary

Disco: Silly Love Songs

[Edited 6/16/11 9:57am]

ufoclub said:

Graycap23 said:

Really............I'm waiting.

Just listen to "Wild Honey Pie"

then listen to "Oh Darling"

then "Temporary Secretary"

then "Get Back"

the reggae break in "Live and Let Die"

then any orchestral track off of "Ecce Cor Meum"

check out this WIRED article about the dance/electronic influence of the Beatles (1966) track "Tomorrow Never Knows" http://www.wired.com/unde...ver-knows/

[Edited 6/16/11 8:08am]

I just listened 2 all of these tracks......other than Live and Let Die, I can't stand and will NEVER listen 2 these tracks agian in life.

U think these tracks are good?

Imaginative said:

Graycap23 said:

Please point me 2 His R&B, Funk, Hiphop, House, dance, gospel, electro, blues, and jazz records. I want 2 check it ASAP.

Wow, "Mr. Jones," you do sound smarter when you refrain from speaking. I can name tons, but for the sake of time (and knowing full well that you won't actually seek out any of these records) I'll stick to one or to per:

R&B: Got to Get You Into My Life

Funk: What's That You're Doing?, Coming Up

Electro/House: The Fireman LPs

Blues: Why Don't We Do It In the Road?, Man We Was Lonely, Run Devil Run LP, tons actually.

Jazz: Honey Pie

PLUS:

Classical: Liverpool Oratorio, Standing Stone LPs

World Music: Tons of tracks both with the Beatles and Solo

Art Muzak: Thrillington LP

Orchestral Rock: Back to the Egg LP

Punk: Temporary Secretary

Disco: Silly Love Songs

[Edited 6/16/11 9:57am]

I would add "Oh Darling" in the r&b section too, thats a good song, a bit better than Got to get you in my life. Both are good songs though