blackbob said:

reading the 'prince - in the studio' book and got to the making of the black album section and susan rogers confirmed what i had always knew...that the black album was never considered as the follow up to sign o the times....the black album tracks were made on days off from recording sign and they were quickly recorded and not taken too seriously by prince...just some funk jams that he could do in his sleep

.

i remember when i heard the black album back in 1988..i knew this wasnt meant to be a main prince album...just wasnt up to the standard of his other albums and way below the quality of sign o the times...

.

so it looks like prince never intended for this album to be released officially at the time...he pulled the production of this album so it would become widely bootlegged ...it was a throwaway funk party album..

.

lovesexy...of course..followed officially and was far better and a more justified follow up to sign o the times...

All true apart from the bit I highlighted in red.

The Black Album was supposed to be a low-key side-project kinda thing. That's why it wasn't going to be released under the name "Prince". Part of the reason that it was shelved was that this plan was blown and the public perception would have been that it was the follow-up to SOTT, which wasn't how Prince wanted the album viewed.

It's very similar to what he did years later with the NPG albums, particularly Newpower Soul. It was credited to the "New Power Generation" rather than "Prince/" deliberately to show that it wasn't the follow-up to Emancipation and shouldn't be veiwed that way.

blackbob said:

ohYeeeeeah said:

Waow. The Black Album is very sophisticated. The production is amazing throughout. You can hear the cohesion. To me it is one of his best efforts to date. Listen to all the details. It is everything but just quickly recorded tracks.

[Edited 6/8/11 3:24am]

.

.

well thats what susan rogers said about the recording of the black album tracks ..quickly recorded funk tracks made on his days off from recording sign...and she was there...

.

.

the album sounds quickly thrown together to my ears...

.

I'd touch anything she says with a pinch of salt. On that Radio 2 doc, she said it was her mistake and her fault the vocals on IIWYGF got speeded up and Prince liked the result.

Like he'd never recorded sped up, processed vocals before!

She's a fibber.

Marrk said:

blackbob said:

.

.

well thats what susan rogers said about the recording of the black album tracks ..quickly recorded funk tracks made on his days off from recording sign...and she was there...

.

.

the album sounds quickly thrown together to my ears...

.

I'd touch anything she says with a pinch of salt. On that Radio 2 doc, she said it was her mistake and her fault the vocals on IIWYGF got speeded up and Prince liked the result.

Like he'd never recorded sped up, processed vocals before!

She's a fibber.

I think the mistake that was her fault was the distorted sound on his voice as there was a power failure on the desk.

Marrk said:

blackbob said:

.

.

well thats what susan rogers said about the recording of the black album tracks ..quickly recorded funk tracks made on his days off from recording sign...and she was there...

.

.

the album sounds quickly thrown together to my ears...

.

I'd touch anything she says with a pinch of salt. On that Radio 2 doc, she said it was her mistake and her fault the vocals on IIWYGF got speeded up and Prince liked the result.

Like he'd never recorded sped up, processed vocals before!

She's a fibber.

unless she blatantly said that was the first instance of prince messing around with the speed of vocals, i don't think you can call that an outright lie.

[Edited 6/8/11 15:09pm]

funksterr said:

I know SOTT is great, but only in an art project type of way. That sucker didn't sell, tanked on radio

at least 3.2 million copies

3 top ten songs

reached #6 in the states

#4 in the UK

you're right, it sure did flop.

wish i could suck half that bad.

The production on the Black Album is very carefully layered and mixed and incredibly creative... unlike say "Lovesexy" which is slap it all on loud and quick!

There was also an announcement that his next album after SOTT was "The Funk Bible" as this album is announced in the opening slowed down monologue. I remember that mention in Melody Maker.

Personally I consider the Black Album to be his storngest album yet, and it is my favorite and most listed to. But different different ears on different peers.

PS, most all his albums are compiled of songs sort of recorded on off times and during tours and in between projects. The outtakes and demos prove this.

Lovesexy might be the only one where he actually rushed to put it together to try to instill a certain feeling.

ufoclub said:

Personally I consider the Black Album to be his storngest album yet, and it is my favorite and most listed to. But different different ears on different peers.

PS, most all his albums are compiled of songs sort of recorded on off times and during tours and in between projects. The outtakes and demos prove this.

Lovesexy might be the only one where he actually rushed to put it together to try to instill a certain feeling.

I don't really dig the opinion that TBA is a throw away or rush job. I think it's a great album, one of Prince's best - it's manic genius has rarely been seen since or before, I'd say it's only competition in that respect are sides 3 and 4 of 1999.

NouveauDance said:

ufoclub said:

Personally I consider the Black Album to be his storngest album yet, and it is my favorite and most listed to. But different different ears on different peers.

PS, most all his albums are compiled of songs sort of recorded on off times and during tours and in between projects. The outtakes and demos prove this.

Lovesexy might be the only one where he actually rushed to put it together to try to instill a certain feeling.

I don't really dig the opinion that TBA is a throw away or rush job. I think it's a great album, one of Prince's best - it's manic genius has rarely been seen since or before, I'd say it's only competition in that respect are sides 3 and 4 of 1999.

damn I have a lot of mispellings in my post! "strongest"... "listened to"...

funksterr said:

SoulAlive said:

so you're telling me that the title track and "I Could Never Take The Place" weren't played on the radio,even though they were Top 10 hits? I don't know where you live,but I heard several of these songs on the radio,in heavy rotation throughout the summer and fall of '87.SOTT was a consistent seller.The only time that the sales were slow was when the poorly chosen second single was released ("If I Was Your Girlfriend").But when the catchy "U Got The Look" was released,the album began climbing back up the charts.You're mistaken if you think that this albun was a commercial failure.It's only a failure if you compare it to Purple Rain's sales but those sales weren't the norm for Prince anyway.

I'm not going to disagree with you about I Could Never Take The Place On Your Man charting, but I don't think it was ever in HEAVY ROTATION anywhere. SOTT had 3 major things working against it at the time it came out: high price point, unmastered demo quality music, and music completely out of step with the popular trends in r&b and rock. WB knew it wouldn't sell well before they ever even released the thing. What you see in terms of stats looking back at it was a reflection of their sales team doing whatever it had to do to cover everybody's azzez and Prince's brand. In my view, Prince did the right thing in trying to change up the vibe for his next project, but both The Black Album and LoveSexy were terrible commercial offerings. You could argue they were artistic successes if you like, but Prince is in the commercial music business. Had he taken his role as salesman more seriously we never would have had all post Purple Rain drama.

interestingly,the B-side of ICNTTPOYM was "Hot Thing",which also got alot of airplay and became popular in the clubs You seem to keep ignoring this one important fact: THREE OF THE SINGLES FROM THIS ALBUM REACHED THE TOP 10.How can you possibly insist that the music on this album is "out of step with popular trends in R&B and rock" when three of its' four singles found an audience and reached the Top 10? R&B radio even embraced "Housequake" and "Adore".Hell,in my area,"Housequake" was a Summer of 87 funk anthem! They wore that song out!

"U Got The Look" was damn near a Number One pop smash! It peaked at Number Two,held out of the top spot by Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam's "Lost In Emotion".I really don't see why you're trying to downplay and deny these stats.The album and three of its singles were successful.A few other tracks also received heavy airplay.End of story.

NouveauDance said:

so it looks like prince never intended for this album to be released officially at the time...he pulled the production of this album so it would become widely bootlegged ...it was a throwaway funk party album..

This isn't so, and doesn't really make sense if you think about it - They pressed and destroyed thousands of copies of the album, which is pretty wasteful and expensive for something never intended to be released. No, it was all set for release, and meant to be under the radar and not really 'the next Prince album' (that was Graffiti Bridge which was already being worked on). It was cancelled last minute, it wasn't part of a masterplan for noteriety - though P. definately worked that angle afterwards to mythologise (? that a word? ) Lovesexy.

Think of it as a bit like the Madhouse or NPG albums - it's Prince, but not mentioned overtly (although TBA is more obviously Prince, so it wouldn't fly quite so under the radar as those).

I also think of Dirty Mind as a slightly comparable release to The Black Album. No reason really, its got that gritty raw production. Also, shouldn't it have been called The Funk Bible and not The Black Album? I get it and understand why it took on the name. But Prince did call it The Funk Bible in the slammin opener, Le Grind. Plus it sounds like a great Prince album title and he could have still played the Good vs. Evil thing with Lovesexy too.

I always wished the Camille Album would have been released though.Think about Sign "O" the Times without the Camille tracks. It would still have been a masterpiece as a single album or as a double album. The unreleased tracks to choose from at that time to replace the Camille tracks were all solid tracks. Like Joy in Repetition, Crystal Ball, Dream Factory, In A Large Room With No Light, Power Fantastic, A Place in Heaven, Sexual Suicide and Crucial. Do I dare say it would have been even more of a critical darling?

Also, Prince would never intentionally help out bootleggers.

SoulAlive said:

interestingly,the B-side of ICNTTPOYM was "Hot Thing",which also got alot of airplay and became popular in the clubs You seem to keep ignoring this one important fact: THREE OF THE SINGLES FROM THIS ALBUM REACHED THE TOP 10.How can you possibly insist that the music on this album is "out of step with popular trends in R&B and rock" when three of its' four singles found an audience and reached the Top 10? R&B radio even embraced "Housequake" and "Adore".Hell,in my area,"Housequake" was a Summer of 87 funk anthem! They wore that song out!

"U Got The Look" was damn near a Number One pop smash! It peaked at Number Two,held out of the top spot by Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam's "Lost In Emotion".I really don't see why you're trying to downplay and deny these stats.The album and three of its singles were successful.A few other tracks also received heavy airplay.End of story.

Seriously, anyone saying the album didn't produce tracks that received enormous amounts of airplay is greatly misguided.

SOTT, U Got The Look and ICNTTPOYM all reached the top 10 on the pop chart. SOTT, IIWYG and Hot Thing all reached the top 20 on R&B radio. Housequake caught fire across major markets as soon as the album was released. In fact, it was commonly understood at the time that HQ didn't receive an official single release because it had already blown up on radio and with 2 discs of content they had plenty of other tracks to push. Adore received a hell of a lot of airplay, as well.

Indeed, SOTT did better on radio and on the charts than any album except Purple Rain.

The album probably sold less than it normally would have, because of price, but it was comparable to previous albums such as Parade and 1999. LoveSexy was a flop, not SOTT.

jtfolden said:

SoulAlive said:

interestingly,the B-side of ICNTTPOYM was "Hot Thing",which also got alot of airplay and became popular in the clubs You seem to keep ignoring this one important fact: THREE OF THE SINGLES FROM THIS ALBUM REACHED THE TOP 10.How can you possibly insist that the music on this album is "out of step with popular trends in R&B and rock" when three of its' four singles found an audience and reached the Top 10? R&B radio even embraced "Housequake" and "Adore".Hell,in my area,"Housequake" was a Summer of 87 funk anthem! They wore that song out!

"U Got The Look" was damn near a Number One pop smash! It peaked at Number Two,held out of the top spot by Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam's "Lost In Emotion".I really don't see why you're trying to downplay and deny these stats.The album and three of its singles were successful.A few other tracks also received heavy airplay.End of story.

Seriously, anyone saying the album didn't produce tracks that received enormous amounts of airplay is greatly misguided.

SOTT, U Got The Look and ICNTTPOYM all reached the top 10 on the pop chart. SOTT, IIWYG and Hot Thing all reached the top 20 on R&B radio. Housequake caught fire across major markets as soon as the album was released. In fact, it was commonly understood at the time that HQ didn't receive an official single release because it had already blown up on radio and with 2 discs of content they had plenty of other tracks to push. Adore received a hell of a lot of airplay, as well.

Indeed, SOTT did better on radio and on the charts than any album except Purple Rain.

The album probably sold less than it normally would have, because of price, but it was comparable to previous albums such as Parade and 1999. LoveSexy was a flop, not SOTT.

I was a huge Prince fan at the time even before learning about bootlegs... and outide of "U Got the Look", the mainstream crowd just seemed lukewarm to the album. "Adore" hit on R&B stations not any top 40 radio. I clearly remember hearing people really get into something like "Pump Up the Volume" or "Push It"... but responding lukewarm to "Hot Thing".

I clearly remember pushing my SOTT tape on the playlist of my college scene, and people saying Janet Jackson's album was much more fun to listen to.

The top 40 crowd didn't love them (except for U Got the Look, that shit hit with these people).

I couldn't believe that the SOTT movie was never as big as something like "Stop Making Sense".

"Smart" people loved SOTT the single though. And "Housequake", but those same people were turned off by the biggest hit off the album, "U Got the Look".

I never ever heard "If I was Your Girlfriend" outside of the album, so I have no idea what the reaction was to that.

ufoclub said:

I never ever heard "If I was Your Girlfriend" outside of the album, so I have no idea what the reaction was to that.

It got played once or twice..

My cousin heard it on the radio and proclaimed it proof Prince was gay. Of course, that same cousin would fight you if you suggested "wrasslin'" wasn't real.

Marrk said:

blackbob said:

.

.

well thats what susan rogers said about the recording of the black album tracks ..quickly recorded funk tracks made on his days off from recording sign...and she was there...

.

.

the album sounds quickly thrown together to my ears...

.

I'd touch anything she says with a pinch of salt. On that Radio 2 doc, she said it was her mistake and her fault the vocals on IIWYGF got speeded up and Prince liked the result.

Like he'd never recorded sped up, processed vocals before!

She's a fibber.

She said no such thing.

The issue she was talking about with If I Was Your Girlfriend as to do with the distortion on the vocals. It's got nothing to do with the fact they were speeded up.

She's also quite right about the recording of the Black Album tracks too. They were mostly recorded fairly quickly, with no particular intent to release them. The Black Album wasn't 'recorded' specifically (which is why there's no real outtakes). It was assembled from existing recordings made mostly during that year.

2 Nigs United 4 West Compton, Le Grind & Bob George were all recorded and mixed very quickly over two days in December 1986 and were just intended to be played at Sheila E's birthday party.

Cindy C & Dead On It were recorded in January 1987 during some general recording sessions not intended for any specific project.

Superfunkycalifragisexy was recorded in September 1986 during sessions for Sheila E's 3rd album (but not nessessarily intended for it) & Rockhard In A Funky Place was an outtake from the aborted Camille and Crystal Ball projects.

When 2 R In Love was the only new track recorded (and even that hadn't been specifically recorded for the album). The album was assembled in October-November 1987, mastered and pressed by the end of November and ready to ship for it's release date on December 8, 1987.

[Edited 6/8/11 23:19pm]

djThunderfunk said:

ufoclub said:

I never ever heard "If I was Your Girlfriend" outside of the album, so I have no idea what the reaction was to that.

It got played once or twice..

My cousin heard it on the radio and proclaimed it proof Prince was gay. Of course, that same cousin would fight you if you suggested "wrasslin'" wasn't real.

"If I Was Your Girlfriend" is a fantastic song,but it should not have been released as a single.Alot of people didn't really understand the lyrics.They thought that Prince had finally lost his mind,lol.In my area,it got a little airplay on our R&B stations but faded away very quickly.

ufoclub said:

jtfolden said:

Seriously, anyone saying the album didn't produce tracks that received enormous amounts of airplay is greatly misguided.

SOTT, U Got The Look and ICNTTPOYM all reached the top 10 on the pop chart. SOTT, IIWYG and Hot Thing all reached the top 20 on R&B radio. Housequake caught fire across major markets as soon as the album was released. In fact, it was commonly understood at the time that HQ didn't receive an official single release because it had already blown up on radio and with 2 discs of content they had plenty of other tracks to push. Adore received a hell of a lot of airplay, as well.

Indeed, SOTT did better on radio and on the charts than any album except Purple Rain.

The album probably sold less than it normally would have, because of price, but it was comparable to previous albums such as Parade and 1999. LoveSexy was a flop, not SOTT.

I was a huge Prince fan at the time even before learning about bootlegs... and outide of "U Got the Look", the mainstream crowd just seemed lukewarm to the album. "Adore" hit on R&B stations not any top 40 radio. I clearly remember hearing people really get into something like "Pump Up the Volume" or "Push It"... but responding lukewarm to "Hot Thing".

I clearly remember pushing my SOTT tape on the playlist of my college scene, and people saying Janet Jackson's album was much more fun to listen to.

The top 40 crowd didn't love them (except for U Got the Look, that shit hit with these people).

I couldn't believe that the SOTT movie was never as big as something like "Stop Making Sense".

"Smart" people loved SOTT the single though. And "Housequake", but those same people were turned off by the biggest hit off the album, "U Got the Look".

I never ever heard "If I was Your Girlfriend" outside of the album, so I have no idea what the reaction was to that.

The SOTT concert film was hastily released with very little promotion.I wish Prince had toured the US in the fall/winter of '87 and saved the film for another time (spring 1988).I think it would have fared much better.But you know how Prince is....he moves on quickly to the next project.

SoulAlive said:

The SOTT concert film was hastily released with very little promotion.I wish Prince had toured the US in the fall/winter of '87 and saved the film for another time (spring 1988).I think it would have fared much better.But you know how Prince is....he moves on quickly to the next project.

I thought the movie was saved for later and released in autumn 1988 (in Europe it came along with the lovesexy tour).

dualboot said:

SoulAlive said:

The SOTT concert film was hastily released with very little promotion.I wish Prince had toured the US in the fall/winter of '87 and saved the film for another time (spring 1988).I think it would have fared much better.But you know how Prince is....he moves on quickly to the next project.

I thought the movie was saved for later and released in autumn 1988 (in Europe it came along with the lovesexy tour).

In the States,it was released in November 1987

Yeah!!

The Black-motherfucking-great-Album....

One must be deaf for not appreciating this fine work of art.

Same for Lovesexy...... fantastic piece of music.

jtfolden said:

SoulAlive said:

interestingly,the B-side of ICNTTPOYM was "Hot Thing",which also got alot of airplay and became popular in the clubs You seem to keep ignoring this one important fact: THREE OF THE SINGLES FROM THIS ALBUM REACHED THE TOP 10.How can you possibly insist that the music on this album is "out of step with popular trends in R&B and rock" when three of its' four singles found an audience and reached the Top 10? R&B radio even embraced "Housequake" and "Adore".Hell,in my area,"Housequake" was a Summer of 87 funk anthem! They wore that song out!

"U Got The Look" was damn near a Number One pop smash! It peaked at Number Two,held out of the top spot by Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam's "Lost In Emotion".I really don't see why you're trying to downplay and deny these stats.The album and three of its singles were successful.A few other tracks also received heavy airplay.End of story.

Seriously, anyone saying the album didn't produce tracks that received enormous amounts of airplay is greatly misguided.

SOTT, U Got The Look and ICNTTPOYM all reached the top 10 on the pop chart. SOTT, IIWYG and Hot Thing all reached the top 20 on R&B radio. Housequake caught fire across major markets as soon as the album was released. In fact, it was commonly understood at the time that HQ didn't receive an official single release because it had already blown up on radio and with 2 discs of content they had plenty of other tracks to push. Adore received a hell of a lot of airplay, as well.

Indeed, SOTT did better on radio and on the charts than any album except Purple Rain.

The album probably sold less than it normally would have, because of price, but it was comparable to previous albums such as Parade and 1999. LoveSexy was a flop, not SOTT.

I don't consider Lovesexy a flop. Sure, it was his poorest selling album in the U.S. since Controversy but it was a hit in Europe (number 1 in several countries) and remains one of his most succesful albums in that market.

There's life outside of the U.S.

i dont get how the hell people would be saying Prince wasn't funky in 1987. blasphemy. did they hear Housequake?

Bob, as stated earlier in this thread, seems that you got a few things wrong and that the book you're reading isn't the acme of accuracy.

'The Black Album' is my second favourite Prince album ever. Just after that absolute masterpiece titled 'SOTT'.

And I can't pay much attention to some Susan Rogers statements since I heard the snippet of the wonderful 'Adonis And Batseeba', which she reportedly bashed. She must've been nuts when she said that.

Ahhh, the revisionist history of Prince. Stories change like most people change their drawers.

vitriol said:

And I can't pay much attention to some Susan Rogers statements since I heard the snippet of the wonderful 'Adonis And Batseeba', which she reportedly bashed. She must've been nuts when she said that.

Really? When?

I dug what I heard so far, but I need to hear the full song in order to hear what she thought was so bad.

blackbob said:

reading the 'prince - in the studio' book and got to the making of the black album section and susan rogers confirmed what i had always knew...that the black album was never considered as the follow up to sign o the times....the black album tracks were made on days off from recording sign and they were quickly recorded and not taken too seriously by prince...just some funk jams that he could do in his sleep

.

i remember when i heard the black album back in 1988..i knew this wasnt meant to be a main prince album...just wasnt up to the standard of his other albums and way below the quality of sign o the times...

.

so it looks like prince never intended for this album to be released officially at the time...he pulled the production of this album so it would become widely bootlegged ...it was a throwaway funk party album..

.

lovesexy...of course..followed officially and was far better and a more justified follow up to sign o the times...

Weren't all of his 80s projects in the same vein though? That every album was supposed to be a departure from its precedents?

I always thought the intent of Black Album was to sneak it into the record stores without people knowing who it was, and the only thing that would've given it away was "Controversy Music" publishing on the label.

I don't consider it a throwaway though, not when he's performed some of the songs live.

Just because Prince didn't record the songs that ended up on the Black Album with as serious a mindset as the ones that ended up on SOTT doesn't mean that he never intended to release The Black Album. Most everyone that has written / recorded music knows how things like that work - sometimes you come up with songs that are done just to entertain yourself, but later on you may realize that they are quite good and should see the light of day after all.

The reasons why he cancelled it has been speculated on this board before. His own explanation was that he cancelled it due to a spiritual awakening, but it has been also speculated that the release of the album even as a limited release might have hurt the sales of his other forthcoming projects. In any case, a considerable number of copies got already pressed, so it isn't very likely that he "never intended" to release it officially.

funksterr said:

blackbob said:

reading the 'prince - in the studio' book and got to the making of the black album section and susan rogers confirmed what i had always knew...that the black album was never considered as the follow up to sign o the times....the black album tracks were made on days off from recording sign and they were quickly recorded and not taken too seriously by prince...just some funk jams that he could do in his sleep

.

i remember when i heard the black album back in 1988..i knew this wasnt meant to be a main prince album...just wasnt up to the standard of his other albums and way below the quality of sign o the times...

.

so it looks like prince never intended for this album to be released officially at the time...he pulled the production of this album so it would become widely bootlegged ...it was a throwaway funk party album..

.

lovesexy...of course..followed officially and was far better and a more justified follow up to sign o the times...

You make no sense at all. What the hell is a "throwaway funk party album"? What kind of party would The Black Album get played at? In 1988 no less? SOTT and quality don't belong in the same sentence. I know SOTT is great, but only in an art project type of way. That sucker didn't sell, tanked on radio and let's not act like it was not recorded in an half-azzed fashion. And then LoveEcstacy was basicaly mastered demos and a retread dismantling of a much stronger Revolution era outtake.

What Revolution era outtake are you referring to?

FunkiestOne said:

The black album is great and I believe the regular story that he changed his mind about releasing it. He changed his mind about so many other albums too that it isn't a big surprise.

And What about When 2 r in Love...is that another throwawy track? Guess not.

If you listen to the album and the complexity of the songs, you can tell they werne't "quickly" recorded. I mean Prince probably recorded a lot of classic songs quickly but they sure don't sound like demos.

Ditto

[Edited 7/25/11 14:39pm]

funksterr said:

TwiliteKid said:

You're joking, right?

Dance On was an embarrassment and the first strong indication that Prince wasn't who I thought he was. Anna Stesia, Positivity both seem a little under-cooked. Alphabet St was great, but the rest of the album could have gone in the lake and we wouldn't have missed it.

maybe u wouldn't have missed it, but i would have waded into the lake to retrieve it