I'm not 100% sure, but It seems that sometimes BobbyZ would be playing everything live & triggering the Linn sounds from the midi drum pads.... BUT, other times, there is definitely a programmed DRUM LOOP being played from the machine & Bobby would just be enhancing the beat with the live kit....

Using Midi on drums was pretty primitive in 1984, but there are a number of ways to do it which at that time would have required custom made gear.

Prince toured with a real drum kit in those days, not midi drum pads, so that means it was a hybrid if played live. In those days, you had engineers hand building modified synth and drum machine gear, and that was the start of taking a Midi technician on tours. Prince's drum patterns were pretty minimal too, so it would mean mostly the kick drum, and the snare, but I don't know what they would have used to trigger claps and those kind of sounds. I'm guessing some percussions sounds actually came from the synths.

If you couldn't do that, it wasn't uncommon to have the drum machine in the rack, and play along with it's loops, giving the drums or other backing track some life. That means the machine leads though, and few drummers were cool with that.

The Linn drum itself couldn't be physically played live itself, by the way. There were some drum machines one would tap the beat out on with your fingers, but that's not one of them.

treehouse said:

steakfinger said:

treehouse said:

Using Midi on drums was pretty primitive in 1984, but there are a number of ways to do it which at that time would have required custom made gear.

Prince toured with a real drum kit in those days, not midi drum pads, so that means it was a hybrid if played live. In those days, you had engineers hand building modified synth and drum machine gear, and that was the start of taking a Midi technician on tours. Prince's drum patterns were pretty minimal too, so it would mean mostly the kick drum, and the snare, but I don't know what they would have used to trigger claps and those kind of sounds. I'm guessing some percussions sounds actually came from the synths.

If you couldn't do that, it wasn't uncommon to have the drum machine in the rack, and play along with it's loops, giving the drums or other backing track some life. That means the machine leads though, and few drummers were cool with that.

The Linn drum itself couldn't be physically played live itself, by the way. There were some drum machines one would tap the beat out on with your fingers, but that's not one of them.

Actually, MIDI is still primitive. Thee is such a tiny amount of info going from the controller to the device a USB cable is overkill. Also, you could play the Linndrum live and Bobby did. MIDI had, (and stiull has) nothing to do with it. I've owned three of them and they have trigger inputs on the back. You plug in your drum pads and trigger the sounds live. The LM-1 and the Linndrum did NOT have MIDI. It was trigger pads, not MIDI pads. You can purchase a MIDI upgrade these days from FORAT, but the original machines did not ship with them. Bobby was commonly known to play some live drums, (mainly cymbals and the de-tuned rimshot) along with the pre-programed Linndrum Patterns. That's why in the credits to the Prince Ultimate collection Michael B. is credited as the drummer and Bobby is credited as percussionist. Bobby played live drums for a long time, but when the Linndrum became a big part of the sound he became an odd sort of percussionist. There's no mystery on this. [Edited 6/6/11 10:07am]

You can hook up touch sensitive pads to Linn Drum and play them that way. So in a sense you can play the drums live and have the LINN sound at once. I own one and use it all the time. One of my little studio tricks is to lay the live drums, and then hook up the pads to the speaker and isolate the kick-boom linn live kick mix. Also, you have to adjust the sensitivity with a little screw driver. Pretty primitive, but still works today. So it's pretty simple.

neronava said:

steakfinger said:

treehouse said: Actually, MIDI is still primitive. Thee is such a tiny amount of info going from the controller to the device a USB cable is overkill. Also, you could play the Linndrum live and Bobby did. MIDI had, (and stiull has) nothing to do with it. I've owned three of them and they have trigger inputs on the back. You plug in your drum pads and trigger the sounds live. The LM-1 and the Linndrum did NOT have MIDI. It was trigger pads, not MIDI pads. You can purchase a MIDI upgrade these days from FORAT, but the original machines did not ship with them. Bobby was commonly known to play some live drums, (mainly cymbals and the de-tuned rimshot) along with the pre-programed Linndrum Patterns. That's why in the credits to the Prince Ultimate collection Michael B. is credited as the drummer and Bobby is credited as percussionist. Bobby played live drums for a long time, but when the Linndrum became a big part of the sound he became an odd sort of percussionist. There's no mystery on this. [Edited 6/6/11 10:07am]

You can hook up touch sensitive pads to Linn Drum and play them that way. So in a sense you can play the drums live and have the LINN sound at once. I own one and use it all the time. One of my little studio tricks is to lay the live drums, and then hook up the pads to the speaker and isolate the kick-boom linn live kick mix. Also, you have to adjust the sensitivity with a little screw driver. Pretty primitive, but still works today. So it's pretty simple.

Yes I imagine this is what they did for the most part, so Bobby could play, but still sound like a drum machine.

steakfinger said:

You can purchase a MIDI upgrade these days from FORAT, but the original machines did not ship with them. Bobby was commonly known to play some live drums, (mainly cymbals and the de-tuned rimshot) along with the pre-programed Linndrum Patterns.

Kind of a contradiction there. If he could trigger samples live, why would he simply play along adding to programmed patterns instead of just...play them?

Also, like I suggested, this wouldn't have been an out of the box set up, that shipped with live capabilities, it would be a modification. Compatibility would have still been an issue then too.

treehouse said:

steakfinger said:

You can purchase a MIDI upgrade these days from FORAT, but the original machines did not ship with them. Bobby was commonly known to play some live drums, (mainly cymbals and the de-tuned rimshot) along with the pre-programed Linndrum Patterns.

Kind of a contradiction there. If he could trigger samples live, why would he simply play along adding to programmed patterns instead of just...play them?

Also, like I suggested, this wouldn't have been an out of the box set up, that shipped with live capabilities, it would be a modification. Compatibility would have still been an issue then too.

that way you get the best of both worlds. If you listen to the recording of 1999, I think you can hear in the beginning that there are real cymbols being played over a programmed beat.

Linn LM-1 (w/ pre-programmed beats) + Simmons drum set

treehouse said:

steakfinger said:

You can purchase a MIDI upgrade these days from FORAT, but the original machines did not ship with them. Bobby was commonly known to play some live drums, (mainly cymbals and the de-tuned rimshot) along with the pre-programed Linndrum Patterns.

Kind of a contradiction there. If he could trigger samples live, why would he simply play along adding to programmed patterns instead of just...play them?

Also, like I suggested, this wouldn't have been an out of the box set up, that shipped with live capabilities, it would be a modification. Compatibility would have still been an issue then too.

No contraction at all. He played along with the programed patterns because he COULD NOT play the beats as recorded. Prince himself said Bobby wasn't a good drummer, his strength was watching Prince like a hawk for cues. Aside from the kick and the snare, there would often be cabasa, claps, detuned rimshot, etc... being used as percussion. A great drummer would have difficulty keeping all that going with no variation and sounding like a machine.

This is how it was. All you have to do is watch a freakin' live video to hear the snare drum being hit and not see Bobby actually hitting it. Also, he stood up quite a lot. What part of his body was operating the kick drum pedal? I've talked to Fink about this, so I'm not just making shit up, man/woman/child.

The Linndrum shipped with trigger inputs on the back. If you have the kick and snare going, you are free to handle the other stuff. Prince himself said Bobby wasn't a good drummer, his strength was watching Prince like a hawk for cues. There's really no need to doubt me. I've seen it and experienced it for myself AS WELL AS gotten it from sources who were there and involved with the technical aspects. It's no big deal.

He played along with the programmed beats. If the song called for some improv, he could play the drum pads using the triggers. This gave some flexibility, but the pre-programed stuff could keep the rigid parts of the show perfect.

Trust me. This is the undisputable truth.

[Edited 6/8/11 11:07am]

I think part of the debate stems from musician thinking vs non-musician thinking. I imagine most musicians would be able to tell what's going on just by hearing it and knowing the intricacies of playing drums/percussion. I think it's just intuition for musicians and "magic" for those who are not so inclined.

Dogsinthetrees said:

I think part of the debate stems from musician thinking vs non-musician thinking. I imagine most musicians would be able to tell what's going on just by hearing it and knowing the intricacies of playing drums/percussion. I think it's just intuition for musicians and "magic" for those who are not so inclined.

You are 100% correct.

Listening to the recently available birthday show reveals Bobby turning the tempo knob up to increase the tempo after being told to do so.

steakfinger said:

treehouse said:

Kind of a contradiction there. If he could trigger samples live, why would he simply play along adding to programmed patterns instead of just...play them?

Also, like I suggested, this wouldn't have been an out of the box set up, that shipped with live capabilities, it would be a modification. Compatibility would have still been an issue then too.

No contraction at all. He played along with the programed patterns because he COULD NOT play the beats as recorded. Prince himself said Bobby wasn't a good drummer, his strength was watching Prince like a hawk for cues. Aside from the kick and the snare, there would often be cabasa, claps, detuned rimshot, etc... being used as percussion. A great drummer would have difficulty keeping all that going with no variation and sounding like a machine.

This is how it was. All you have to do is watch a freakin' live video to hear the snare drum being hit and not see Bobby actually hitting it. Also, he stood up quite a lot. What part of his body was operating the kick drum pedal? I've talked to Fink about this, so I'm not just making shit up, man/woman/child.

The Linndrum shipped with trigger inputs on the back. If you have the kick and snare going, you are free to handle the other stuff. Prince himself said Bobby wasn't a good drummer, his strength was watching Prince like a hawk for cues. There's really no need to doubt me. I've seen it and experienced it for myself AS WELL AS gotten it from sources who were there and involved with the technical aspects. It's no big deal.

He played along with the programmed beats. If the song called for some improv, he could play the drum pads using the triggers. This gave some flexibility, but the pre-programed stuff could keep the rigid parts of the show perfect.

Trust me. This is the undisputable truth.

[Edited 6/8/11 11:07am]

he had no problem nailing the drums during the 78-81 era... the way he handled the hi hats on prince guitar solo duriing songs like Head, and rock songs like Why YOu Wanna Treat Me So Bad was to me not bad at all. Not on an elite level, and compared to every other drummer he had including Morris Day, he was not technically on top level, but he did a good job especially during the more or less accoustic period. He didn't have to worry about trying to sound like the linn drum machine with his timing.

Hmm. The triggering thing is interesting because the LinnDrum (LM-2) had trigger inputs, but the LM-1 did not. Prince clearly used a lot of LM-1 patterns live, and it has a very different sound than the LM-2 (LinnDrum). The toms and congas, for example, sound VERY different, and the claps on the LM-2 are not tunable. Even the sidestick on the LM-2 sounds slightly different than the LM-1 rimshot. So now my question is, how would Bobby Z have triggered the LM-1 live? Bobby could very well have triggered a LinnDrum, but not an LM-1 without some sort of modification.

If anyone wants to hear an example of how the machines sound different, queue up "The Beautiful Ones" and listen to the LM-1 toms at the beginning. Then listen to the beginning of Pat Benetar's "Love Is a Battlefield". It uses a LinnDrum, and the toms are "bouncier" and sound quite different. It's clearer on the album version than the video version.

I know Prince's LM-1s were modified. I wonder if he had some sort of triggering mod done. It's definitely not an out-of-the-box feature. I own two LM-1s myself, as well as a LinnDrum, so I'm pretty familiar with the sounds and capabilities of each, firsthand. I wonder if he used an LM-2 live and replaced the LM-2 chips with the LM-1 claps and tom EPROMs.

=

[Edited 6/8/11 21:21pm]