Spinlight said:

I just put this album on because I was inspired by the recent mentions in other threads. Is it just me or is this album really loud? I compared it to Rave, which was released the same year, and it doesn't seem quite as sharp. It's almost painful to listen to The Vault at levels I would usually listen to any number of records at (even recent ones like 20TEN or whatever).

Any input? Is it strange for it to be mastered that loud? It was released in 1999, but I thought the material was compiled somewhere around 1995-6ish, around the same time as Chaos and Girl 6.

Why would they go back in specifically to master The Vault? They didn't do that with The Black Album 5 years prior and that material was 5 years OLDER than the earliest material on The Vault!

TV was compiled and handed to WB in April 1996, as the final "fuck you" as documented here: http://prince.org/wiki/1992_Contract .

TBA's master was the exact same one from 1987, i.e. from before decent CD mastering.

[Edited 5/9/11 5:32am]

novabrkr said:

It was released at a time when they had just started to limit records to shit. 1999 would be pretty much THE year when that started happening,

Dude, TV was handed to WB in April 1996 and compiled not long before. TV + C&D were handed to WB as one final "here's two crappy ass albums of old stuff and some tracks I recorded over the weekend in Miami to fulfill the final three albums on my contract". WB didn't change one thing when they released those two albums: artwork et al was provided by Prince.

How exactly would you know that the album didn't undergo any further treatments after 1996? Limiting a track with a piece of software takes less time than listening to the actual track itself, so it's hardly a huge task. It's also quite unlikely that Prince himself wouldn't have been in any contact with the record company about its release after he delivered the material.

It's possible that I'm wrong, but the record is still mastered in a manner that became commonplace at the time of its release.

Is there any evidence that Prince listened to any of his albums after they were mastered but before they were released? He wasn't doing the mastering himself.

Not that Wikipedia is the most reliable source on the internet, but this info is perhaps worth posting:

"In 1994, the digital brickwall limiter with look-ahead (to pull down peak levels before they happened) was first mass-produced. While the increase in CD loudness was gradual throughout the 1990s, some opted to push the format to the limit, such as on Oasis's widely popular album (What's the Story) Morning Glory?, which averaged -8 dBFS on many of its tracks[6]—a rare occurrence, especially in the year it was released (1995). In 1997, Iggy Pop assisted in the remix and remaster of the 1973 album Raw Power by his former band The Stooges, creating an album that, to this day, is arguably the loudest rock CD ever recorded. It has an average of -4 dBFS in places."

So apparently I've been associating the appearance of first digital brickwall limiters to a date that is too late. Like noted in that text, their use picked up gradually throughout the decade. With the appearance of software plugins they finally became as common place as they are today. Seems like Prince was an early culprit in this sense. I know that TGE, for example, is an early example of a very loud album.

The mastering credits on both, C&D and The Vault, seem to be the same. Of course, it's possible that the Vault has been giving an additional "notch up" later on and that it's gone uncredited. It wouldn't be unthinkable that a record company wouldn't even have to ask the permission of an artist to do such a thing (or that Prince himself wouldn't approve it himself). Not going to speculate on such a thing any further though.

novabrkr said:

How exactly would you know that the album didn't undergo any further treatments after 1996? Limiting a track with a piece of software takes less time than listening to the actual track itself, so it's hardly a huge task. It's also quite unlikely that Prince himself wouldn't have been in any contact with the record company about its release after he delivered the material.

It's possible that I'm wrong, but the record is still mastered in a manner that became commonplace at the time of its release.

Why would WB spend time and effort on something like that, when they'd never done so before?

I would be careful using Wikipedia as a guide as it often contains many inaccuracies. Recently it said Prince was celibate, which we all know is not true.

As to Old Friends 4 Sale, judging by the cover art and the content, it seems to me that WB selected these tracks, the reason being they could be construed as a dig at Prince.

Firstly there's 'Old Friends 4 Sale' which could mean WB or could mean Prince.

Secondly, 'My Little Pill' is a dark song about drugs, something Prince never usually likes to discuss or sing about.

There's a sad undertone to the album and this is unlike Prince's other albums which are usually positive.

The artwork looks rushed and notice Prince's head is hanging as if in shame.

I always felt this was Warner's dig at him.

As to mastering - it definately sounds like it was worked on post 1996 and I also think O4FS was from 1985 due to the horns and the vocals.

[Edited 5/9/11 8:48am]

[Edited 5/9/11 8:49am]

BartVanHemelen said:

novabrkr said:

How exactly would you know that the album didn't undergo any further treatments after 1996? Limiting a track with a piece of software takes less time than listening to the actual track itself, so it's hardly a huge task. It's also quite unlikely that Prince himself wouldn't have been in any contact with the record company about its release after he delivered the material.

It's possible that I'm wrong, but the record is still mastered in a manner that became commonplace at the time of its release.

Why would WB spend time and effort on something like that, when they'd never done so before?

I have to thank you for posting your initial dig at me, because it made me check out a few things. I genuinely thought the industry started doing those really loud masters only a few years later, but apparently some records have had that thing going on even before that. IF the final master of The Vault is indeed from 1996 then it's one of the loudest I've heard from that era.

But, c'mon, making a record a few decibels louder than the delivered masters were wouldn't take much effort. It was a standardized practice by the end of the 1990s and it could be done to the records even at the pressing plant just before the CDs get pressed. It's literally just a matter of selecting a preset.

TheFreakerFantastic said:

I would be careful using Wikipedia as a guide as it often contains many inaccuracies. Recently it said Prince was celibate, which we all know is not true.

Yes, wikipedia is full of bullshit, but I don't think the bit I posted contained anything that couldn't be checked out otherwise.

The 1985 version of "Old Friends 4 Sale" has been widely circulating for ages, so we know quite well what it sounds like. The one on the "The Vault..." isn't that one. It's also known that a re-recorded version was made in the early-90s, so we can say with quite a lot of certainty that the version included on "The Vault..." is that one.

TheFreakerFantastic said:

I would be careful using Wikipedia as a guide as it often contains many inaccuracies. Recently it said Prince was celibate, which we all know is not true.

As to Old Friends 4 Sale, judging by the cover art and the content, it seems to me that WB selected these tracks, the reason being they could be construed as a dig at Prince.

Oh for crying out loud, PRINCE compiled these two dics. READ THE FRIKKING LINK I POSTED. Warners doesn't even have the multi-track masters of P's albums, but you think they have access to all the outtakes?

There's a sad undertone to the album and this is unlike Prince's other albums which are usually positive.

Dude, per-lease. LISTEN to P's music. His 90s en 00s work is full of bitter "woman done me wrong" bullcrap.

The artwork looks rushed

Well duh. Prince threw this together in mere days.

novabrkr said:

BartVanHemelen said:

Why would WB spend time and effort on something like that, when they'd never done so before?

I have to thank you for posting your initial dig at me, because it made me check out a few things. I genuinely thought the industry started doing those really loud masters only a few years later, but apparently some records have had that thing going on even before that. IF the final master of The Vault is indeed from 1996 then it's one of the loudest I've heard from that era.

But, c'mon, making a record a few decibels louder than the delivered masters were wouldn't take much effort. It was a standardized practice by the end of the 1990s and it could be done to the records even at the pressing plant just before the CDs get pressed. It's literally just a matter of selecting a preset.

Then prove it. Compare it to other Prince CDs from that era, especially C&D. Why would they tinker like this, when they never did so before? And especially on a CD they were releasing merely because they had it lying around anyway? We're talking about the people who asked Prince's input on the Ultimate compilation...

I don't have to "prove" anything that I am not arguing for as something that necessarily took place. It was offered only as one potential explanation. That much should be clear from my previous 2-3 posts, as I had to backtrack some of my earlier comments a bit with those.

Your post is so full of arrogance and misunderstandings that I'll rather leave the rest of it unanswered.

BartVanHemelen said:

TheFreakerFantastic said:

I would be careful using Wikipedia as a guide as it often contains many inaccuracies. Recently it said Prince was celibate, which we all know is not true.

As to Old Friends 4 Sale, judging by the cover art and the content, it seems to me that WB selected these tracks, the reason being they could be construed as a dig at Prince.

Oh for crying out loud, PRINCE compiled these two dics. READ THE FRIKKING LINK I POSTED. Warners doesn't even have the multi-track masters of P's albums, but you think they have access to all the outtakes?

Dude, per-lease. LISTEN to P's music. His 90s en 00s work is full of bitter "woman done me wrong" bullcrap.

The artwork looks rushed

Well duh. Prince threw this together in mere days.

I did read the link you posted but as I said before you cannot rely on Wikipedia for accuracy, so that proves nothing.

The artwork to the Vault is not like Prince's usual high standards, this is why I think they cobbled that together.

novabrkr said:

I don't have to "prove" anything that I am not arguing for as something that necessarily took place. It was offered only as one potential explanation. That much should be clear from my previous 2-3 posts, as I had to backtrack some of my earlier comments a bit with those.

Your post is so full of arrogance and misunderstandings that I'll rather leave the rest of it unanswered.

Yes LOL you've hit the nail on the head - that is Bart all over. It is what he is known for, so take it with a pinch of salt. He's one of these - 'I'm not a fan' haters but who is the first in line to hear a bootleg or post on a news event and can't keep away from this place lol

[Edited 5/9/11 9:51am]

TheFreakerFantastic said:

BartVanHemelen said:

Well duh. Prince threw this together in mere days.

I did read the link you posted but as I said before you cannot rely on Wikipedia for accuracy, so that proves nothing.

The artwork to the Vault is not like Prince's usual high standards, this is why I think they cobbled that together.

Oh for fuck's sake. I WROTE that thing, it's on the Org's Princepedia, and it's based on Uptown's research etcetera. Uptown SPOKE TO PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THE ROOM.

Why do people like you always insist on making shit up when there are ESTABLISHED FACTS?

"The artwork isn't up to his usual standards" -- yeah, perhaps that's because it was Prince saying fuck you to WB. AS IS STATED IN THE ARTICLE.

The termination agreement was signed on April 26, 1996, at a meeting where Prince handed Warner Bros. Chaos And Disorder and The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale, and told them these were the last they should expect from him. Both these records came with the artwork as released, and WB had no say over the contents.

Do you think someone made that up? No, that's how it happened.

And if you don't care to listen to the actual facts, leave the Org.

novabrkr said:

I don't have to "prove" anything that I am not arguing for as something that necessarily took place. It was offered only as one potential explanation. That much should be clear from my previous 2-3 posts, as I had to backtrack some of my earlier comments a bit with those.

Your post is so full of arrogance and misunderstandings that I'll rather leave the rest of it unanswered.

Hilarious. First you claim that this "hot mastering" happened in 1999, which you then have to backpedal when it is pointed out that the albums were delivered to WB in 1996, yet you keep insisting that WB have done something to the mastering (even thought hey have NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE) and when pressed for evidence you suddenly claim that you've got nothing to prove.

Funny, cuz there's a bunch of your posts on this thread accusing people. You'd think that you'd have some proof before you start doing so.

Go read my first post on this thread: it points to FACTS. Facts which made you go back on just about anything you wrote in this thread prior to that:

The short answer to why C&D and Girl 6 aren't as loud as The Vault is that the technology for making them sound as loud as The Vault didn't exist then.

Oops.

Hah, you wouldn't believe how primitive those programs were still in the mid-90s.

Oops.

How exactly would you know that the album didn't undergo any further treatments after 1996? Limiting a track with a piece of software takes less time than listening to the actual track itself, so it's hardly a huge task. It's also quite unlikely that Prince himself wouldn't have been in any contact with the record company about its release after he delivered the material.

It's possible that I'm wrong, but the record is still mastered in a manner that became commonplace at the time of its release.

Oops.

Read the link I posted: these two records were a FU to WB. Prince did the least amount of work possible. I doubt he invested much time and effort into a decent mastering job.

Don't forget that TGE is also a bit too loud at times. CB (compiled in 1997) isn't that great in the mastering department either. (And some of his recent releases sound awful at times.)

I guess I'm spoiled by iTunes. You can adjust the volume for any track and that stupid skip on the intro to FIVE WOMEN, i've edited it out on iTunes also with 'track start' time. But you can also pull the track into Soundforge and just edit the skip out, SNAP, its done! Again, you can always adjust the volumes on the songs using audio editing software.

rudedog said:

I guess I'm spoiled by iTunes. You can adjust the volume for any track and that stupid skip on the intro to FIVE WOMEN, i've edited it out on iTunes also with 'track start' time. But you can also pull the track into Soundforge and just edit the skip out, SNAP, its done! Again, you can always adjust the volumes on the songs using audio editing software.

That is a helpful feature of iTunes, but unfortunately nothing can adjust for the loss of dymamics.

That's the irony of compression and hard limiting, it's designed to make things louder and more powerful, but in the end (when volume is adjusted for) it often sounds thin and flat.

IstenSzek said:

I've been wondering for a while now and I guess since you guys are talking about it in here (sort of) I'll post the question on this thread. Suppose I make a playlist/collection of prince stuff from various albums and era's and one song is too loud and the other one too soft etc etc. Is there a program that allows you to sync the levels on all of those tracks so that it would come out sounding as if it was a properly released compilation, without those big differences in loudness? Thanks.

Yes. It's called Auto Volume Leveling. Windows Media Player has it built in.

BartVanHemelen said:

BartVanHemelen said:

Hilarious.

I'd use the word "ridiculous" to describe your behavior. This thread has been all about discussion, yet you automatically seem to think it's some sort of a fight between individuals when different explanations have been proposed.

Let's address your tantrum by isolating one claim at a time:

BartVanHemelen said:

First you claim that this "hot mastering" happened in 1999[...]

It was offered as the most likely explanation at that point of the thread. Judged by how the waveforms look in an audio editor and how similar practices became common only a few years later it's not an unreasonable assumption.

BartVanHemelen said:

which you then have to backpedal when it is pointed out that the albums were delivered to WB in 1996,[...]

Like stated, delivering the masters to WB in 1996 proves nothing by itself. However, I took into account what you posted on this thread as something that could very well mean that the records went through no additional stages of limiting. What this means logically is that I consider both options possible:

1. The record has been released like it was originally delivered in 1996.

2. The record has gone through an additional stage of limiting before its release.

For that matter, the word "master" doesn't necessarily refer to the recording that the CDs or LPs are pressed from. There are still several stages of preparation involved with many recordings even after the records have been "mastered". An artist delivering "masters" to a record company doesn't mean that those are exactly the same recordings that appear on the distributed format. If Prince and / or his associates delivered them in the analog format they had to be transformed into the digital format in any case.

You claim to have a lot of insider information. Do you have any information on whether the masters were delivered in an analog or a digital format?

If they were delivered in an analog format then it would be naive to assume that the pressed CDs would be exactly the same as what was on that analog format. The standard procedure for transferring analog masters into the digital domain involves limiting. There is a certain amount of headroom that is preserved during the transfer stage to avoid clipping and then the overall volume level of the recordings is pushed up by using a limiter. During this operation the highest peaks are simply flattened out, as is evident also on The Vault. If this part of the procedure was done in 1999 then there's no doubt they would have used up-to-date equipment. This would be one potential explanation for the perceived loudness of The Vault.

BartVanHemelen said:

yet you keep insisting that WB have done something to the mastering[...]

I have not "insisted" that. I offered an explanation in this thread initially as I was quite convinced that the record had been treated like pretty much every record released in 1999 was. After you posted on this thread I started considering your views as another possibility.

BartVanHemelen said:

(even thought hey have NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE)[...]

This is a moot point. Brickwall limiting albums became a standard practice during the last years of the 90s, not before it. By the end of the 90s it was done to all commercial albums. Record companies have standards for all the records they release and those standards change with time. How would you even know the same individuals were at charge of such decisions in 1996 and in 1999? Who is this abstract "they" you keep referring to anyway? The people that approve the content aren't the same that prepare the material before it's pressed on CDs.

BartVanHemelen said:

and when pressed for evidence you suddenly claim that you've got nothing to prove.

Prove what? That it's possible the record has been made louder by using brickwall limiting before it was released? By looking at the waveform and considering the time frame I think it can be proven that it's possible. This is the only logical consequence you can draw from what I've stated before. That is, unless you are incapable of understanding that after posting my initial views I already made it known that they contained several inaccuracies.

For that matter, you haven't yourself given any evidence either to support your views other than some tidbits posted from unofficial sources that don't even mention the mastering process itself. As far as I can tell, you seem to be very convinced that it's not even possible that the record has been made louder later on. Why do you insist on that when you can't know that for sure?

BartVanHemelen said:

Oops [the rest is not worth quoting]

This is just childish bullshit.

I already admitted that I had not been perfectly aware of what type of technology was available for the purpose of limiting records in the mid-90s - yet you are trying to turn that against me even when I've already admitted it?

Those pieces of software that became standardized for brickwall limiting had not appeared by the mid-90s. Before that they've had to use something else, which I now believe to be in the form of several hardware processors. The reason why the Waves L1 and its kind became an industry standard within a very short period of time is that they were considered to be a very good-sounding pieces of software for the purpose at the time. The L1 in particular also allowed this limiting process to be done very quickly and it easily allowed records to be made several decibels louder than before without a noticeable amount of clipping. Before that, similar type of limiting procedures had been applied to records, but they were considered to be quite unprofessionally done. The software for such purposes certainly wasn't that great (hence my comment that addressed its "primitiveness"). If indeed The Vault has not gotten any loudness boosting before its release using these later products then the record can be considered an early example of this unfortunate trend in mastering. The overall impression of the volume of the record is higher than TGE or C&D. Both, admittedly, are very loud records for their time on their own right.

[Edited 5/10/11 7:46am]

who gives a flying fuck anyways???

BartVanHemelen said:

The termination agreement was signed on April 26, 1996, at a meeting where Prince handed Warner Bros. Chaos And Disorder and The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale, and told them these were the last they should expect from him. Both these records came with the artwork as released, and WB had no say over the contents.

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I kinda figured that's how it went down ...