Cerebus said:

Chiquetet said:

An amateur beekeeper here in Melbourne was stung 40 times last night when he tried to move their hive and accidently knocked it.

They may not be neglected, but apparently they're not super happy...

In any case, I would be surprised to see someone who calls themselves a vegan eat honey. It's like a vegetarian who occasionally eats chicken or fish. Psst! That's not a vegetarian, that's just someone who doesn't like red meat...

Someone who only eats fish is a Pescatarian. There is no name, as far as I know, for those who only eat chicken.

And as someone who was a vegan for quite some time I can tell you I ate honey because they're bees. Bees are insects, not animals. And keeping them in hives to create honey is only allowing them to do what they do naturally. Stinging people when their hive is disturbed is natural act for them. Also, honey bees are disappearing, so the more people who keep them the better.

Gallutarians? Chicken is gallus gallus domesticus.

Genesia said:

Gallutarians? Chicken is gallus gallus domesticus.

Phuseatarians. From the latin Phussy Eaterus not to be confused with... well you know (I've got to think of the children)

KeithyT said:

Genesia said:

Gallutarians? Chicken is gallus gallus domesticus.

Phuseatarians. From the latin Phussy Eaterus not to be confused with... well you know (I've got to think of the children)

suomynona said:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/suomynona/5622423977/

Nah, I would keep it closed and in the closet or my armoire that I have with a TON of Prince memorabilia and what not.

Militant said:

Veganism isn't simply about animal cruelty. It's about animal exploitation.

It must be impossible (certainly for someone like yourself living in Birmingham and/or Portland) to totally avoid everything that requires some degree of animal exploitation during manufacture. I assume that you must draw the line somewhere and attempt avoidance of animal exploitation within reasonable limits?

If you live in a house then undoubtedly some if not all of cement, plywood, insulation, plaster, paint, wallpaper, adhesives, plastics, and linoneum were used in its construction. Plus, if you wear shoes, use soap, detergents, deodorants, shaving creams, shampoo, any cosmetics, vitamins, most medicines, etc... I think you get the idea and I'd hazard a guess you already know all this.

I have conversed with vegans who claim not to eat, wear or use anything that requires the exploitation of animals, blissfully unaware of (or simply ignoring and hoping others will too) the fact that their lives are full of unavoidable products that don't meet their stated requirements.

I'm just wondering how having to draw the line and accept that total avaoidance is not possible sits with you.

(with apologies to the OP for going totally off-topic)

Militant said:

suomynona said:

I can understand the choice of not eating meat and chicken -- even fish -- but honey? Oh, those poor neglected bees. Okay, maybe "retarded" was a bit extreme. Comical would have been a better choice. Thank you for the laugh

Well, let me put it this way to help you gain some perspective. Veganism isn't simply about animal cruelty. It's about animal exploitation.

When you breed, or forcefully keep a living creature in order to extract it's natural fluids and sell them for profit, that's exploitation. Why do we feel we have the right to dictate the way in which another living creature lives? Isn't it for the bees to decide what happens to the honey they create? Is human exploitation of it the reason for it's existence?

Cerebus - Why aren't insects "animals"? Veganism is about not exploiting, living, sentient beings who would logically not want to be exploited and would express that if we had the ability to share communication. A common phrase you'll hear among vegans is that we don't eat anything with eyes and parents, and we don't eat anything that came from something with eyes and parents. It's a tongue-in-cheek remark, but valid.

Isn't making honey something bees do anyway - regardless of whether they are "kept"? What happens to that honey in the wild? I'll tell you - a bear comes along and smashes the hive to get the honey. At least the beekeeper is gentle about it.

Bees...exploited. Like they're in little bee sweatshops or something...

AsylumUtopia said:

Militant said:

Veganism isn't simply about animal cruelty. It's about animal exploitation.

It must be impossible (certainly for someone like yourself living in Birmingham and/or Portland) to totally avoid everything that requires some degree of animal exploitation during manufacture. I assume that you must draw the line somewhere and attempt avoidance of animal exploitation within reasonable limits?

If you live in a house then undoubtedly some if not all of cement, plywood, insulation, plaster, paint, wallpaper, adhesives, plastics, and linoneum were used in its construction. Plus, if you wear shoes, use soap, detergents, deodorants, shaving creams, shampoo, any cosmetics, vitamins, most medicines, etc... I think you get the idea and I'd hazard a guess you already know all this.

I have conversed with vegans who claim not to eat, wear or use anything that requires the exploitation of animals, blissfully unaware of (or simply ignoring and hoping others will too) the fact that their lives are full of unavoidable products that don't meet their stated requirements.

I'm just wondering how having to draw the line and accept that total avaoidance is not possible sits with you.

(with apologies to the OP for going totally off-topic)

Yeah, of course. It's not about drawing the line somewhere, more-so it's about changing things where you can. Where it's not going to affect your life to, in the words of MJ, "make that change"

Soaps, Shaving creams, cosmetic products, vitamins = it's easy to find vegan versions of these. It's also easy to find vegan shoes online - not all my shoes are vegan of course, but the majority of them I have either owned since before I was vegan. Clothing is harder - granted.

I've always accepted that total avoidance is not possible. I try my best and that makes me happy. What is frustrating is that some things that do help a lot to end animal suffering/exploitation are so easy for people in the western world and yet so many don't or won't make simple, inconsequential changes yet still claim to "love animals". I maintain it's simply because most of them don't realise the consequences of their actions and how easy it is to change them. That's why I've always maintained education is the most important thing, reaching out to people in a non-threatening, helpful way. Really trying to connect with people as opposed to random rants or just mindlessly handing out flyers, you know. Yes, I'll admit to having the occasional rant, but it comes from a good-hearted place and it's simply because I have a real passion for the cause and a true disgust at what some of these industries are doing to the animals. Abuse is sickening whether it's humans or animals, I don't subscribe to the belief of many (usually the religious) that animals are somehow lesser beings than us and we should therefore care less about their welfare.

Genesia said:

Militant said:

Well, let me put it this way to help you gain some perspective. Veganism isn't simply about animal cruelty. It's about animal exploitation.

When you breed, or forcefully keep a living creature in order to extract it's natural fluids and sell them for profit, that's exploitation. Why do we feel we have the right to dictate the way in which another living creature lives? Isn't it for the bees to decide what happens to the honey they create? Is human exploitation of it the reason for it's existence?

Cerebus - Why aren't insects "animals"? Veganism is about not exploiting, living, sentient beings who would logically not want to be exploited and would express that if we had the ability to share communication. A common phrase you'll hear among vegans is that we don't eat anything with eyes and parents, and we don't eat anything that came from something with eyes and parents. It's a tongue-in-cheek remark, but valid.

Isn't making honey something bees do anyway - regardless of whether they are "kept"? What happens to that honey in the wild? I'll tell you - a bear comes along and smashes the hive to get the honey. At least the beekeeper is gentle about it.

Bees...exploited. Like they're in little bee sweatshops or something...

Read the bold part again.

Cow's make milk naturally too. But not so that humans can chain them up, abuse them, rape them with metal machines, forcefully impregnate them to increase the yield, inject them with all sorts of drugs and hormones, solely for profit.

I don't see much difference with the bees. The bear doesn't know any different and isn't exploiting the bees in forced habitats purely for profit. The higher intelligence of mankind isn't so we can shit on and abuse everything with a lower intelligence, it's so that we can reason, and make decisions based on rationale, and most importantly, compassion. I choose to live my life by making compassionate choices and that extends to all sentient beings.

Militant said:

Genesia said:

Isn't making honey something bees do anyway - regardless of whether they are "kept"? What happens to that honey in the wild? I'll tell you - a bear comes along and smashes the hive to get the honey. At least the beekeeper is gentle about it.

Bees...exploited. Like they're in little bee sweatshops or something...

Read the bold part again.

Cow's make milk naturally too. But not so that humans can chain them up, abuse them, rape them with metal machines, forcefully impregnate them to increase the yield, inject them with all sorts of drugs and hormones, solely for profit.

I don't see much difference with the bees. The bear doesn't know any different and isn't exploiting the bees in forced habitats purely for profit. The higher intelligence of mankind isn't so we can shit on and abuse everything with a lower intelligence, it's so that we can reason, and make decisions based on rationale, and most importantly, compassion. I choose to live my life by making compassionate choices and that extends to all sentient beings.

I did read it. How, exactly, do you think you can "force" a bee to live in a hive? Chain it? Put it on a leash?

Honey is not "extracted" from a bee. It is not part of its "natural fluids." If you believe that, you need to hit the books.

And the whole notion of the bee deciding what should happen to the honey is just moronic. Like bees have powers of reason?

This point of view is just silly.

I don't like honey by itself but i do like it with other ingredients.

As for the debate that has started about wether it's right or wrong to exploit animals for food,

well as far as I'm concerned we're animals too..Animals eat each other, fact.

As a species we wouldn't be as succesful as we are now if our ancestors didn't kill other animals to survive.

I went onto google to back up my previous claim.

As I typed "would the human race......"

The first option that showed on google was ".....survive a zombie attack"

Genesia said:

Cerebus said:

Me too, actually.

There's just something about the flavor I don't care for. It sort of irritates my throat, too.

That's not to say I don't like it in stuff. Like...I don't mind it in a marinade. Or mustard.

I just don't care for it as the main flavor.

I'm the same way. I won't go near honey by itself - I think it's the whole idea that it's secretions from an insect, that kinda grosses me out.

...But I've been known to drown a sandwich in honey mustard .

muirdo said:

I don't like honey by itself but i do like it with other ingredients.

As for the debate that has started about wether it's right or wrong to exploit animals for food,

well as far as I'm concerned we're animals too..Animals eat each other, fact.

As a species we wouldn't be as succesful as we are now if our ancestors didn't kill other animals to survive.

At last, someone talking a bit of common sense!

muirdo said:

I went onto google to back up my previous claim.

As I typed "would the human race......"

The first option that showed on google was ".....survive a zombie attack"

I've seen a few clips of P at the Forum on youtube where he comes back out about an hour after the concert riding a bicycle -- and it looks like he's being chased by zombies...

Genesia said:

And the whole notion of the bee deciding what should happen to the honey is just moronic.

I totally agree. Face it, bees are naturally selfish creatures. They shouldn't get to keep all that honey anyway, it's not fair. Every time you go up to a hive, they swarm all around you with so much attitude and it's just not polite. All we want it for them to share their exquisite honey! Because they refuse to be reasonable about it, it's up to us as humans to dictate where that honey goes and how much to take. It's time to reclaim our world!

That's how I see it.

Militant said:

Well, let me put it this way to help you gain some perspective. Veganism isn't simply about animal cruelty. It's about animal exploitation.

When you breed, or forcefully keep a living creature in order to extract it's natural fluids and sell them for profit, that's exploitation. Why do we feel we have the right to dictate the way in which another living creature lives? Isn't it for the bees to decide what happens to the honey they create? Is human exploitation of it the reason for it's existence?

Cerebus - Why aren't insects "animals"? Veganism is about not exploiting, living, sentient beings who would logically not want to be exploited and would express that if we had the ability to share communication. A common phrase you'll hear among vegans is that we don't eat anything with eyes and parents, and we don't eat anything that came from something with eyes and parents. It's a tongue-in-cheek remark, but valid.

I'm really trying to understand: Let's say we didn't live in this over-industrialized world, but lived in a society many 1000 years ago, like where hunting fish or animals was part of the natural way of living, in the same way as animals hunt for other animals, in balance with nature's own order. Would you eat animal products or animal produced products under these conditions? I mean, is it the (unbalanced) exploitation you are against or is it the products itself?

davetherave6767 said:

after 10 tramodol bottle of red wine id eat another person if the seasoning is right!

who would prince eat on the org with or without seasoning?

now thats the REAL question

i think that honey is the only food item that doesn't spoil. I seem to remember reading that they found honey in one of the tombs in Egypt and it was still good. I don't think that the explorer had a piece of toast with him to sample it right then and there, but I have heard that it doesn't spoil, so... yes i would try it, or I'd leave it on my shelf so that my daughter could try it when she is 90.

Militant said:

The bear doesn't know any different and isn't exploiting the bees in forced habitats purely for profit. The higher intelligence of mankind isn't so we can shit on and abuse everything with a lower intelligence, it's so that we can reason, and make decisions based on rationale, and most importantly, compassion.

I don't subscribe to the belief of many (usually the religious) that animals are somehow lesser beings than us

I'm just wondering how this might logically fit together...

EmancipationLover said:

Militant said:

The bear doesn't know any different and isn't exploiting the bees in forced habitats purely for profit. The higher intelligence of mankind isn't so we can shit on and abuse everything with a lower intelligence, it's so that we can reason, and make decisions based on rationale, and most importantly, compassion.

I don't subscribe to the belief of many (usually the religious) that animals are somehow lesser beings than us

I'm just wondering how this might logically fit together...

It fits together providing you don't measure the worth of a being based soley on their intelligence.

jpnyc said:

Chiquetet said:

EmancipationLover said:

I'm just wondering how this might logically fit together...

It fits together providing you don't measure the worth of a being based soley on their intelligence.

O.k., so if we measure it simply based on the fact that those other beings are just that - beings -, then why would it be acceptable to kill bacteria, fungi or plants? They're beings as well, aren't they?

Wouldn't taste it, but damn that would be the coolest Prince collectible for my desk.

I want one! Anybody has one, I'll buy it form you.

EmancipationLover said:

Chiquetet said:

It fits together providing you don't measure the worth of a being based soley on their intelligence.

O.k., so if we measure it simply based on the fact that those other beings are just that - beings -, then why would it be acceptable to kill bacteria, fungi or plants? They're beings as well, aren't they?

Yep and that's essentially one of the main reasons I'm not vegan, or vegetarian for that matter

I just wanted to point out that Militant's arguments weren't as contradictary as they might have looked at first glance. I get that POV, but I do tend to take it in the direction you have.

On a side note, I can't help thinking the same thing every time I see this thread pop up...

"Aged 22 years - would you taste it?"

Prince would.

Awww...so wrong...so why do I keep thinking it???

Chiquetet said:

On a side note, I can't help thinking the same thing every time I see this thread pop up...

"Aged 22 years - would you taste it?"

Prince would.

Awww...so wrong...so why do I keep thinking it???

Finally, someone took the bait...

Hell to the naw! how do we even know its geniune, anyone could print a label like that and stick it on a jar

suomynona said:

Chiquetet said:

On a side note, I can't help thinking the same thing every time I see this thread pop up...

"Aged 22 years - would you taste it?"

Prince would.

Awww...so wrong...so why do I keep thinking it???

Finally, someone took the bait...

they selling it?