Tremolina said:

Efan said:

I understand what you are saying here, but seriously, show me one word in the lyrics of THIS SONG, one single word, that even remotely refers to the concept of the trinity. This concept is there in Last December, for sure, (in the name of the father and the son, but not the holy spirit) yet it's not there in 1+1+1=3.

All there really is to make this song about the trinity, is the title of the song, which however also perfectly applies to the "theocratic order" of woman, man, god, that the songs lyrics are apparantly all about. And which could be seen as sexist, but not necessarily when you look at it from a bible point of view.

"Controversial" indeed, I would say.

This is just my interpretation, but I think he's saying in the album that the Banished Ones are those who spread misinformation about the "accurate knowledge." And this to him is one of the inaccuracies. But once the woman he's seducing agrees to it all, then he can go on with the rest of the album's themes.

I don't see it that way. After 1+1+1=3 there is still some destruction of the digital garden and courting of the muse to do on "Deconstruction" and "She loves me 4 me", but then it goes all universal, political and religious on the last three tracks.

To me, the end theme on Last December seems to be that: "we need to come together as one"

"In the name of the father and the son" only, obviously, but still as "one".

[Edited 4/12/11 18:15pm]

I guess the only argument I can give you is this: There's no notion that the man and the woman are equals. The man is clearlly superior to the woman in his mind. So saying "1+1+1" implies a parity that he doesn't believe in (witness such previous lines as "She surrendered her discerning of it into his care and keeping 4 she trusted he would lead in the right way").

Also, it seems unfair to look at this only on a song-by-song basis, because it's clearly a cohesive album and storyline he's building. Immediately after 1+1+1 Is 3, he goes right into Deconstruction, which refers back to Digital Garden. I see it as her (the muse who is now the queen) accepting the knowledge given to her in 1+1+1 Is 3, which then leads to the Deconstruction of the Digital Garden and its "lies, lies, lies." After that, he knows she is the one he can marry (Wedding Feast is not an actual wedding, but instead it's a call for a wedding). In She Loves Me 4 Me, he celebrates the love he has found and brings her back to meet his mother. But as he prepares for the wedding, he realizes that the name he will give his bride is not his own (Family Name, obviously).

Efan said:

Tremolina said:

I guess the only argument I can give you is this: There's no notion that the man and the woman are equals. The man is clearlly superior to the woman in his mind. So saying "1+1+1" implies a parity that he doesn't believe in (witness such previous lines as "She surrendered her discerning of it into his care and keeping 4 she trusted he would lead in the right way").

Yes clearly, but also clearly in the theocratic sense of: god is superior to man and man to woman. NOT i any way about the CATHOLIC concept of the father, the son adn the holy spirit being "one" within the "trinity"...

Also, it seems unfair to look at this only on a song-by-song basis, because it's clearly a cohesive album and storyline he's building. Immediately after 1+1+1 Is 3, he goes right into Deconstruction, which refers back to Digital Garden. I see it as her (the muse who is now the queen) accepting the knowledge given to her in 1+1+1 Is 3, which then leads to the Deconstruction of the Digital Garden and its "lies, lies, lies." After that, he knows she is the one he can marry (Wedding Feast is not an actual wedding, but instead it's a call for a wedding). In She Loves Me 4 Me, he celebrates the love he has found and brings her back to meet his mother. But as he prepares for the wedding, he realizes that the name he will give his bride is not his own (Family Name, obviously).

Okay... go on and finish it then...

It's like listening to Mein Kampf narrated by Darth Vador and set to smooth jazz.

Some fun moments on it though.

Tremolina said:

Yes clearly, but also clearly in the theocratic sense of: god is superior to man and man to woman. NOT i any way about the CATHOLIC concept of the father, the son adn the holy spirit being "one" within the "trinity"...

It's funny, because I think what you're saying here is exactly the sexism that plagues me so throughout this album. So I guess I should just agree and focus on that, rather than the other stuff. But to me, since the album is about his conversion to being a Jehovah's Witness, and since that religion doesn't believe in the trinity, the rest seems crucial to it. I do agree (if this is what you're saying) that Digital Garden is a criticism of Catholicism (and the Christian religions that came after it and still largely believe in similar things).

Tremolina said: Okay... go on and finish it then...

Do I need to? I think he relays a history of black American musicians in Everlasting Now and he ties it into HIS mission. Given the history of racial oppression in America, the lack of a family name, and the way the music industry has treated those who came before him, Prince is now tasked with the mission of doing the work and delivering the truth to his followers and the world. "Don't let nobody bring U down/Accurate knowledge of Christ and the Father" and Last December are that message.

Again, my interpretation of the whole thing. The entire album is a journey that details his conversion to the JW faith and places it firmly in the context of his musical legacy.

SagsWay2low said:

It's like listening to Mein Kampf narrated by Darth Vador and set to smooth jazz.

Some fun moments on it though.

Jeez I never thought I would ever find myself defending Mein Kampf,

V10LETBLUES said:

SagsWay2low said:

It's like listening to Mein Kampf narrated by Darth Vador and set to smooth jazz.

Some fun moments on it though.

Jeez I never thought I would ever find myself defending Mein Kampf,

chocolate1 said:

It surpassed "Sign O the Times" as my favorite album.

mpne to and i like 3121 album to, im going to his concert on april 22nd in la, robyn

I agree completely! I've can never understand why a real Prince enthusiast dosen't get this album, this really is classic Prince. The music is just incredible, it's a concept album, It has a cult feel to it. It's inspired and passionate yet very dark.

I'm sorry but this is truely Prince at his best, not best album, but best at being what he is, Prince the experience.

Efan said:

Musically, it's amazing.

Lyrically, it's frustrating. On the one hand, it's one of his most (if not THE most) thought-out and inspired albums in a lyrical sense. He was definitely saying something, rather than writing throwaway songs. There's nothing throwaway on there...even "Wedding Feast," which I think adds a perfect whimsy to the otherwise serious album. On the other hand, of course, the lyrics are incredibly dreadful and disappointing in several places. It made me sad when I first heard it to think that an artist I liked so much had fallen into such a backward way of thinking about so many, many things.

But again, musically, it's amazing.

totally agree

cborgman said:

Efan said:

Musically, it's amazing.

Lyrically, it's frustrating. On the one hand, it's one of his most (if not THE most) thought-out and inspired albums in a lyrical sense. He was definitely saying something, rather than writing throwaway songs. There's nothing throwaway on there...even "Wedding Feast," which I think adds a perfect whimsy to the otherwise serious album. On the other hand, of course, the lyrics are incredibly dreadful and disappointing in several places. It made me sad when I first heard it to think that an artist I liked so much had fallen into such a backward way of thinking about so many, many things.

But again, musically, it's amazing.

totally agree

What orthodox religious doctrine isn't sexist?

Alguy said:

1. The Rainbow Children

2. Muse 2 The Pharoah

3. Digital Garden

4. The Work

5. Everywhere

6. The Sensual Everafter

7. Mellow

8. 1 + 1 + 1 is 3

9. Deconstruction

10. Wedding Feast

11. She Loves Me 4 Me

12. Family Name

13. The Everlasting Now

14. Last December

One of his worst works ever.

[Edited 4/13/11 0:51am]

[Edited 4/13/11 0:52am]

No its not

SagsWay2low said:

It's like listening to Mein Kampf narrated by Darth Vador and set to smooth jazz.

Some fun moments on it though.

Brilliant. And yet...

The TRC album has 3 amazing tracks:

The Everlasting Now

The Work

Family Name

But.............

I still rank Prince's classic albums from 1980-1988 much HIGHER than TRC.

thedance said:

The TRC album has 3 amazing tracks:

The Everlasting Now

The Work

Family Name

But.............

I still rank Prince's classic albums from 1980-1988 much HIGHER than TRC.

I don't understand how you can The Rainbow Children but hate Larry Graham?

thedance said:

I still rank Prince's classic albums from 1980-1988 much HIGHER than TRC.

That's why we have the wonderful setlists we have for the W2A tour.

Just saying.

I hated TRC when I first listened to it. But then after a few more times I began to really like it. I think it's awesome now. The thing I like most about it is that P doesn't sound like he's just going through the motions. There is a passion and energy in this record that seems to be missing from his last few albums.

Most of us seem in agreement with the musical magic of this album but so often I hear criticism for its lyrics and I wonder why.

People often talk of Prince's most heartfelt ballads yet I think this album is one of Prince's most heartfelt pieces of work. It seemed he bared his soul and shared his new path, his realisations and intertwined it with a storyline of TRC, still managing to keep it sensual, while also passing on a message of God.

Lets face it, while many on this board may be non-believers, there are still millions in the world who follow religion avidly. Why should they always be cast aside as "wrong" and/or judged on their intellectual capacities, just because they have faith in something that others don't have?

I don't get why TRC is so controversial. It's a basic tale of religious and world history which you don't have to believe but religion and history are not going away anytime soon.

So TRC is synonymous with the garden of Eden, temptation, those who defied God and were banished. A man's search for a true love which he finds. The 1+1+1=3 in my understanding being God must be in their relationship. It's about the triumph of goodness over evil, perhaps Prince at the time fighting his own demons to find peace. His thoughts on sex, marriage etc changed, he'd rather "look within" than listen to those around him. He references Jesus who wasn't overly impressed by the ruling class and had more respect for the poor widow who gave her 2.5 cents as tithe.

Family name and it's supposedly anti-Semitic line is not what people make it out to be. I think he uses Jewish names only because they're easily recognisable, and made a stronger point of what he was trying to draw attention to. Abolishing slavery and slaves being given names is really not that long ago if you look back at history seriously.

When he says "holocaust aside" he is not saying it was unimportant, but synonymous and just as evil as slave trade. Stripping people of their roots and heritage is also a kind of death. He warns those that think of evil things like the former two just mentioned, will have to answer to God, who according to the bible can strike leaving ash and dust. (If God was nature, the tsunami and Japanese earthquake is evidence enough of supernatural power.)

So the album asks you to choose your path carefully. He's saying resist temptation and look after your own history. Make sure it's something worth looking back on.

I don't see why people get so annoyed with Prince sharing his beliefs. They were more than happy to share in his sexuality, but not his mind? What's up with that? As i said, one doesn't have to believe what he believes but I appreciate that he shares his deeper thoughts through the lyrics on this album.

Bohemian67 said:

Most of us seem in agreement with the musical magic of this album but so often I hear criticism for its lyrics and I wonder why.

People often talk of Prince's most heartfelt ballads yet I think this album is one of Prince's most heartfelt pieces of work. It seemed he bared his soul and shared his new path, his realisations and intertwined it with a storyline of TRC, still managing to keep it sensual, while also passing on a message of God.

Lets face it, while many on this board may be non-believers, there are still millions in the world who follow religion avidly. Why should they always be cast aside as "wrong" and/or judged on their intellectual capacities, just because they have faith in something that others don't have?

I don't get why TRC is so controversial. It's a basic tale of religious and world history which you don't have to believe but religion and history are not going away anytime soon.

So TRC is synonymous with the garden of Eden, temptation, those who defied God and were banished. A man's search for a true love which he finds. The 1+1+1=3 in my understanding being God must be in their relationship. It's about the triumph of goodness over evil, perhaps Prince at the time fighting his own demons to find peace. His thoughts on sex, marriage etc changed, he'd rather "look within" than listen to those around him. He references Jesus who wasn't overly impressed by the ruling class and had more respect for the poor widow who gave her 2.5 cents as tithe.

Family name and it's supposedly anti-Semitic line is not what people make it out to be. I think he uses Jewish names only because they're easily recognisable, and made a stronger point of what he was trying to draw attention to. Abolishing slavery and slaves being given names is really not that long ago if you look back at history seriously.

When he says "holocaust aside" he is not saying it was unimportant, but synonymous and just as evil as slave trade. Stripping people of their roots and heritage is also a kind of death. He warns those that think of evil things like the former two just mentioned, will have to answer to God, who according to the bible can strike leaving ash and dust. (If God was nature, the tsunami and Japanese earthquake is evidence enough of supernatural power.)

So the album asks you to choose your path carefully. He's saying resist temptation and look after your own history. Make sure it's something worth looking back on.

I don't see why people get so annoyed with Prince sharing his beliefs. They were more than happy to share in his sexuality, but not his mind? What's up with that? As i said, one doesn't have to believe what he believes but I appreciate that he shares his deeper thoughts through the lyrics on this album.

A lot of people on here don't like being reminded that Prince is a black man. Therefore, lyrics that reference it bother them. Other people like to think of Prince as a horny 25-year-old pumping speakers and singing of sex while only calling on God or faith for temporary redemption for "sin," so the idea of him embracing his faith and living life according to its dictates unnerves them as well.

Btw, I LOVE TRC. The only thing I am not crazy about is the distorted voice narration and Wedding Feast.

[Edited 4/13/11 18:33pm]

bellanoche said:

Bohemian67 said:

Most of us seem in agreement with the musical magic of this album but so often I hear criticism for its lyrics and I wonder why.

People often talk of Prince's most heartfelt ballads yet I think this album is one of Prince's most heartfelt pieces of work. It seemed he bared his soul and shared his new path, his realisations and intertwined it with a storyline of TRC, still managing to keep it sensual, while also passing on a message of God.

Lets face it, while many on this board may be non-believers, there are still millions in the world who follow religion avidly. Why should they always be cast aside as "wrong" and/or judged on their intellectual capacities, just because they have faith in something that others don't have?

I don't get why TRC is so controversial. It's a basic tale of religious and world history which you don't have to believe but religion and history are not going away anytime soon.

So TRC is synonymous with the garden of Eden, temptation, those who defied God and were banished. A man's search for a true love which he finds. The 1+1+1=3 in my understanding being God must be in their relationship. It's about the triumph of goodness over evil, perhaps Prince at the time fighting his own demons to find peace. His thoughts on sex, marriage etc changed, he'd rather "look within" than listen to those around him. He references Jesus who wasn't overly impressed by the ruling class and had more respect for the poor widow who gave her 2.5 cents as tithe.

Family name and it's supposedly anti-Semitic line is not what people make it out to be. I think he uses Jewish names only because they're easily recognisable, and made a stronger point of what he was trying to draw attention to. Abolishing slavery and slaves being given names is really not that long ago if you look back at history seriously.

When he says "holocaust aside" he is not saying it was unimportant, but synonymous and just as evil as slave trade. Stripping people of their roots and heritage is also a kind of death. He warns those that think of evil things like the former two just mentioned, will have to answer to God, who according to the bible can strike leaving ash and dust. (If God was nature, the tsunami and Japanese earthquake is evidence enough of supernatural power.)

So the album asks you to choose your path carefully. He's saying resist temptation and look after your own history. Make sure it's something worth looking back on.

I don't see why people get so annoyed with Prince sharing his beliefs. They were more than happy to share in his sexuality, but not his mind? What's up with that? As i said, one doesn't have to believe what he believes but I appreciate that he shares his deeper thoughts through the lyrics on this album.

A lot of people on here don't like being reminded that Prince is a black man.

Gee, you really think so? Anyone can see Prince is a black man (or at the very least a racially mixed person). So I truely don't think that his fans (that even take the trouble to visit this forum) have problems with him being a black man.

It seems to me though that some people here (you?) pehaps have trouble with being black. I would like to advise you to "be proud of yourself no matter what (colour) you are: we are all EQUAL", instead of trolling by saying that "a lot of people here don't like being reminded that Prince is a black man".

I am not saying NO ONE here has trouble with Prince being black ( I am sure there must be a fool or two here on this forum that think so), but to say "a lot of people here..." is just not true and quite offensive in my eyes...

"Black, white, Puertorican everybody's just a-freaking..."

I think it's a great album. I don't listen to it often, but when I do, it's always great.

This is one of those albums where there's absolutely no middle ground. You either love it, or hate it. It's either a 4 or 5 star album, or a 1 or 2 star album.

I think it was a statement record and a bold statement to make.

A lot of people don't really dig the religious material on the Album, but it doesn't bother me because Prince has had Christian Religious iconogaphy and references throughout his entire career.

Tremolina said:

Period.

Despite some of its controversial lyrical elements and its nonsensical weddding feast and destruction, it's simply excellent.

Agree, 100%.

yep. it is definitely in my personal Top 3 of P-albums

Bohemian67 said:

Most of us seem in agreement with the musical magic of this album but so often I hear criticism for its lyrics and I wonder why.

People often talk of Prince's most heartfelt ballads yet I think this album is one of Prince's most heartfelt pieces of work. It seemed he bared his soul and shared his new path, his realisations and intertwined it with a storyline of TRC, still managing to keep it sensual, while also passing on a message of God.

Lets face it, while many on this board may be non-believers, there are still millions in the world who follow religion avidly. Why should they always be cast aside as "wrong" and/or judged on their intellectual capacities, just because they have faith in something that others don't have?

I don't get why TRC is so controversial. It's a basic tale of religious and world history which you don't have to believe but religion and history are not going away anytime soon.

So TRC is synonymous with the garden of Eden, temptation, those who defied God and were banished. A man's search for a true love which he finds. The 1+1+1=3 in my understanding being God must be in their relationship. It's about the triumph of goodness over evil, perhaps Prince at the time fighting his own demons to find peace. His thoughts on sex, marriage etc changed, he'd rather "look within" than listen to those around him. He references Jesus who wasn't overly impressed by the ruling class and had more respect for the poor widow who gave her 2.5 cents as tithe.

Family name and it's supposedly anti-Semitic line is not what people make it out to be. I think he uses Jewish names only because they're easily recognisable, and made a stronger point of what he was trying to draw attention to. Abolishing slavery and slaves being given names is really not that long ago if you look back at history seriously.

When he says "holocaust aside" he is not saying it was unimportant, but synonymous and just as evil as slave trade. Stripping people of their roots and heritage is also a kind of death. He warns those that think of evil things like the former two just mentioned, will have to answer to God, who according to the bible can strike leaving ash and dust. (If God was nature, the tsunami and Japanese earthquake is evidence enough of supernatural power.)

So the album asks you to choose your path carefully. He's saying resist temptation and look after your own history. Make sure it's something worth looking back on.

I don't see why people get so annoyed with Prince sharing his beliefs. They were more than happy to share in his sexuality, but not his mind? What's up with that? As i said, one doesn't have to believe what he believes but I appreciate that he shares his deeper thoughts through the lyrics on this album.

Great post. I agree with you 100%. I find Prince's religious lyrics much more interesting than the sexual ones, frankly. And I say it again: you won't find a debate as rich as this one concerning the lyrics of Irresistible Bitch, for example. Listening to a record like this, I am happy to admire not only a great musician, but also a rich and complex person, with his doubts and his struggles, and proud to declare his spirituality in a context that usually rejects it (and I mean not only our "secular" societies, but also the pop-rock world -see what happened to a masterpiece like Prefab Sprout's Let's Change The World With Music, for example-).

It's amazing that, almost 25 years after his debut, Prince came with an album as fascinating as this one, musically and LYRICALLY.

Tremolina said:

Period.

Despite some of its controversial lyrical elements and its nonsensical weddding feast and destruction, it's simply excellent.

I agree, the music & the editing of the album. So good musically that even the lyrical dogma and weirdness on the first couple of tracks don't even bother me. Very good, thought out concept album. Everywhere and Last December are so joyous, love 'em.

SagsWay2low said:

It's like listening to Mein Kampf narrated by Darth Vador and set to smooth jazz.

Some fun moments on it though.

So true, so funny!!! I love the album though!

802 said:

thedance said:

The TRC album has 3 amazing tracks:

The Everlasting Now

The Work

Family Name

But.............

I still rank Prince's classic albums from 1980-1988 much HIGHER than TRC.

I don't understand how you can The Rainbow Children but hate Larry Graham?

^ Haha... you got me there - very funny,

but... what kind of trick question is that...

I guess I like the music but not the JW message.