I haven't been a fan of a horn section since the Hornheadz left in 93?

Everything since then has paled in comparison.

They were just too tight and too funky

There were three back up singers, Shelby of course, and one white lady and one African American lady. I couldn't hear them that much when they were singing. The AA lady didn't really seem to fit in like Shelby and the white lady... they were both getting down, and that woman was really kind of lame. Unless she was having an off night, so I give her the benefit of the doubt. Rhonda is Caliente!!

Illuminations said:

There were three back up singers, Shelby of course, and one white lady and one African American lady. I couldn't hear them that much when they were singing. The AA lady didn't really seem to fit in like Shelby and the white lady... they were both getting down, and that woman was really kind of lame. Unless she was having an off night, so I give her the benefit of the doubt. Rhonda is Caliente!!

Rhonda's not in the band.

Militant said:

bohurdle said:

Horns have been a centrical part of the Prince sound since the beginning

No they haven't. Prince didn't have a horn section in his band, or on his records till 1986.

I personally can do without them. Replacing horn lines with synths is what the Minneapolis Sound is all about, anyway.

I agree, the horns he had were synth, and I love that sound

hearing the horns on every song takes away from the purple music too me

I could take 'em or leave 'em. To me, complaining that they're not there is like saying, "This tour sucks because that little Asian guy isn't Prince's guitar tech anymore."

novabrkr said:

TwiliteKid said:

Illuminations said:

There were three back up singers, Shelby of course, and one white lady and one African American lady. I couldn't hear them that much when they were singing. The AA lady didn't really seem to fit in like Shelby and the white lady... they were both getting down, and that woman was really kind of lame. Unless she was having an off night, so I give her the benefit of the doubt. Rhonda is Caliente!!

Rhonda's not in the band.

Who was that woman playing bass? I could've sworn it was Rhonda... lol. Then again, I was so excited to be there my head was spinning like Linda Blair!

I think horns work for some things and don't for others, I think the whole Lovesexy/ Sign O' the times thing was great, I loved 3121 with horns when they did the down by the river etc etc and of course girls and boys, but the synths most definately have that MPLS sound feel to it, which is classic Prince to me8-) I must admit as much as she can get people going....I'm getting sick of Shelby and co. taking over with things recently.....I would love to see just one show without her..

RumAndRaisin said:

He hasnt had the hornz since 2007...

Tours / era's that had had horns: (Or 'i have too much time on my hands')

Purple Rain Tour (1984-85)
Parade (1986)
Sign o the Times (1987)
Lovesexy (1988-9)

Diamonds and Pearls (1992) [NPG horns]

Act 1 & Act 2 (1993) [NPG horns]

Rave un2 the Jor Fantastic Promotional Tour (1999) [NPG horns / Maceo]

Hit n Run / Celebration (2000-1) [Najee on sax]

One Nite Alone (2002)

World Tour (2003)

Musicology2004ever (2004)

3121 Era (2006) [Occasionaly had some guest horn players, but more than often not]

o2 (2007)

Since then, no horns.

21 nights (2008)

...?

dyvrdown said:

RumAndRaisin said:

He hasnt had the hornz since 2007...

Tours / era's that had had horns: (Or 'i have too much time on my hands')

Purple Rain Tour (1984-85)
Parade (1986)
Sign o the Times (1987)
Lovesexy (1988-9)

Diamonds and Pearls (1992) [NPG horns]

Act 1 & Act 2 (1993) [NPG horns]

Rave un2 the Jor Fantastic Promotional Tour (1999) [NPG horns / Maceo]

Hit n Run / Celebration (2000-1) [Najee on sax]

One Nite Alone (2002)

World Tour (2003)

Musicology2004ever (2004)

3121 Era (2006) [Occasionaly had some guest horn players, but more than often not]

o2 (2007)

Since then, no horns.

21 nights (2008)

...?

21 Nights is a recording of the 2007 o2 aftershows

RumAndRaisin said:

dyvrdown said:

21 nights (2008)

...?

21 Nights is a recording of the 2007 o2 aftershows

oh ok, i thought it was in 2008.

novabrkr said:

I can see why he wouldn't tour with Oberheim -type of synths as they are pretty hard to replace if something goes wrong. However, he doesn't seem to be using the Oberheims or the other old analog polysynths on his studio material either, so it can't be just about that. Of course, it's possible that I could be wrong and that he's using them on some songs. I'm just not hearing it myself. I hear the Linn, but that seems to be more or less the only vintage unit that's featured on his recent material.

Could you break it down for a non-musician layman like me? Why don´t they make keyboards with a fat sound anymore? I don´t really get it. I met a friend on the weekend who also happens to be a professional musician, he used to be quite successful a while ago, and he talked about all kinds of technical gadgets for hours and hours, and I could barely understand him but, what I did understand, is that some of the old analog equipment has a much stronger, fatter, thicker sound...now, what I don´t understand is....how come that today, in the year 2011, with all the high tech we got now, the sound is not as powerful as it was two or three decades ago?

Isn´t that a bit paradoxical? Why don´t they make the boards like they used to?

It´s a bit difficult to understand for me why even professional musicians have a problem with recreating a certain trademark sound that they used to have decades ago when technology wasn´t advanced. Shouldn´t it be the other way around?

And I agree with what most orgers said in this thread....I could do without a horn section. Maceo is cool but he´s too much of a frontman and legend in his own right, and I´d rather hear the old sound again, i.e. either no horns at all, or just Eric Leeds and some synths.

KoolEaze said:

novabrkr said:

I can see why he wouldn't tour with Oberheim -type of synths as they are pretty hard to replace if something goes wrong. However, he doesn't seem to be using the Oberheims or the other old analog polysynths on his studio material either, so it can't be just about that. Of course, it's possible that I could be wrong and that he's using them on some songs. I'm just not hearing it myself. I hear the Linn, but that seems to be more or less the only vintage unit that's featured on his recent material.

Could you break it down for a non-musician layman like me? Why don´t they make keyboards with a fat sound anymore? I don´t really get it. I met a friend on the weekend who also happens to be a professional musician, he used to be quite successful a while ago, and he talked about all kinds of technical gadgets for hours and hours, and I could barely understand him but, what I did understand, is that some of the old analog equipment has a much stronger, fatter, thicker sound...now, what I don´t understand is....how come that today, in the year 2011, with all the high tech we got now, the sound is not as powerful as it was two or three decades ago?

Isn´t that a bit paradoxical? Why don´t they make the boards like they used to?

It´s a bit difficult to understand for me why even professional musicians have a problem with recreating a certain trademark sound that they used to have decades ago when technology wasn´t advanced. Shouldn´t it be the other way around?

This is something that is constantly discussed on synth forums.

The main reason is that companies try to make as money from their products as possible with as small production costs as possible. Modern synthesizers sold by the biggest manufacturers like Korg, Roland and Yamaha run on small computer chips and there's not that much happening inside those units that would be comparable to how older synthesizers work. Modern keyboards can be very good for sample playback type of sounds like pianos and strings as they have a lot of memory needed for those sounds. In that regard there's been a lot progress from the late-80s and the 90s. Say, a realistic piano patch requires several hundred megabytes of memory and this is possible today, whereas some of the first workstations only had one or two megabytes of memory. But for the type of sounds that you hear on Prince tracks like "Controversy" or "DMSR" the digital boards just aren't cutting it.

On the modern boards these type of sounds are generated by using algorithms that model the behavior of the synthesizers of yesteryear. If you open up any of those old synthesizers from the 70s or the early-80s there are tons of components inside and each section is handled by a circuitry dedicated to that function alone. It might seem like modern technology is really advanced, but it's a fact that there still isn't enough computing power available to handle more than just a fraction of what's going on inside an analog synthesizer. For that matter, there isn't even very detailed knowledge available what happens inside those circuits and what really contributes to the sound. The modern analog modeling synthesizers are just rough approximations of their behavior at best. The big companies like Korg, Roland and Yamaha have shown no real interest to start making analog synths again, despite a high demand for them. They stopped making them in the mid-80s and probably don't even have the production facilities needed for making them again. When analog sounds became fashionable again by the mid- and late-90s these companies merely started to do all these cheaper digital emulations of the old synths.

There are several manufacturers that still make analog synths, although these units also tend to sound a bit different to the older units due to component differences. It's safe to say that most electronic musicians prefer either the old analog synths or the new analog synths manufactured by the likes of Moog Music or Dave Smith Instruments. I don't know why commercially successful musicians like Prince, Herbie Hancock or Stevie Wonder use the digital emulations even for the analog sounds, but the main reasons are probably convenience and sponsorships by those bigger companies. I don't know why Prince in particular is so hardheaded in this regard, although to be honest he wasn't really relying on analog synths on many of his classic 80s albums (SOTT / Lovesexy used mostly early digital technology). Many bands have chosen to tour with the old instruments regardless of their potential maintenance problems. Many older analog synths have to be tuned carefully before each performance and repairing them also demands older components that can hard to find. This is not a problem with the newer ones, though.

novabrkr said:

KoolEaze said:

Could you break it down for a non-musician layman like me? Why don´t they make keyboards with a fat sound anymore? I don´t really get it. I met a friend on the weekend who also happens to be a professional musician, he used to be quite successful a while ago, and he talked about all kinds of technical gadgets for hours and hours, and I could barely understand him but, what I did understand, is that some of the old analog equipment has a much stronger, fatter, thicker sound...now, what I don´t understand is....how come that today, in the year 2011, with all the high tech we got now, the sound is not as powerful as it was two or three decades ago?

Isn´t that a bit paradoxical? Why don´t they make the boards like they used to?

It´s a bit difficult to understand for me why even professional musicians have a problem with recreating a certain trademark sound that they used to have decades ago when technology wasn´t advanced. Shouldn´t it be the other way around?

This is something that is constantly discussed on synth forums.

The main reason is that companies try to make as money from their products as possible with as small production costs as possible. Modern synthesizers sold by the biggest manufacturers like Korg, Roland and Yamaha run on small computer chips and there's not that much happening inside those units that would be comparable to how older synthesizers work. Modern keyboards can be very good for sample playback type of sounds like pianos and strings as they have a lot of memory needed for those sounds. In that regard there's been a lot progress from the late-80s and the 90s. Say, a realistic piano patch requires several hundred megabytes of memory and this is possible today, whereas some of the first workstations only had one or two megabytes of memory. But for the type of sounds that you hear on Prince tracks like "Controversy" or "DMSR" the digital boards just aren't cutting it.

On the modern boards these type of sounds are generated by using algorithms that model the behavior of the synthesizers of yesteryear. If you open up any of those old synthesizers from the 70s or the early-80s there are tons of components inside and each section is handled by a circuitry dedicated to that function alone. It might seem like modern technology is really advanced, but it's a fact that there still isn't enough computing power available to handle more than just a fraction of what's going on inside an analog synthesizer. For that matter, there isn't even very detailed knowledge available what happens inside those circuits and what really contributes to the sound. The modern analog modeling synthesizers are just rough approximations of their behavior at best. The big companies like Korg, Roland and Yamaha have shown no real interest to start making analog synths again, despite a high demand for them. They stopped making them in the mid-80s and probably don't even have the production facilities needed for making them again. When analog sounds became fashionable again by the mid- and late-90s these companies merely started to do all these cheaper digital emulations of the old synths.

There are several manufacturers that still make analog synths, although these units also tend to sound a bit different to the older units due to component differences. It's safe to say that most electronic musicians prefer either the old analog synths or the new analog synths manufactured by the likes of Moog Music or Dave Smith Instruments. I don't know why commercially successful musicians like Prince, Herbie Hancock or Stevie Wonder use the digital emulations even for the analog sounds, but the main reasons are probably convenience and sponsorships by those bigger companies. I don't know why Prince in particular is so hardheaded in this regard, although to be honest he wasn't really relying on analog synths on many of his classic 80s albums (SOTT / Lovesexy used mostly early digital technology). Many bands have chosen to tour with the old instruments regardless of their potential maintenance problems. Many older analog synths have to be tuned carefully before each performance and repairing them also demands older components that can hard to find. This is not a problem with the newer ones, though.

Wow.....just...wow. Thanks a lot, you really know your stuff. This was very informative. Thank you.

It is unbelievable that something that sounds better is no longer manufactured and is getting hard to find. What is even more unbelievable is that professional musicians don´t seem to be worried about this and don´t seem to care, even though I bet that they know very well that the new hardware doesn´t really reproduce that thick, warm sound. There´s no use in trying to recreate the old sound (like he did on 20Ten and MPLSound) when he doesn´t really use the old synths anymore.

[Edited 4/5/11 13:01pm]

novabrkr said:

KoolEaze said:

Could you break it down for a non-musician layman like me? Why don´t they make keyboards with a fat sound anymore? I don´t really get it. I met a friend on the weekend who also happens to be a professional musician, he used to be quite successful a while ago, and he talked about all kinds of technical gadgets for hours and hours, and I could barely understand him but, what I did understand, is that some of the old analog equipment has a much stronger, fatter, thicker sound...now, what I don´t understand is....how come that today, in the year 2011, with all the high tech we got now, the sound is not as powerful as it was two or three decades ago?

Isn´t that a bit paradoxical? Why don´t they make the boards like they used to?

It´s a bit difficult to understand for me why even professional musicians have a problem with recreating a certain trademark sound that they used to have decades ago when technology wasn´t advanced. Shouldn´t it be the other way around?

This is something that is constantly discussed on synth forums.

The main reason is that companies try to make as money from their products as possible with as small production costs as possible. Modern synthesizers sold by the biggest manufacturers like Korg, Roland and Yamaha run on small computer chips and there's not that much happening inside those units that would be comparable to how older synthesizers work. Modern keyboards can be very good for sample playback type of sounds like pianos and strings as they have a lot of memory needed for those sounds. In that regard there's been a lot progress from the late-80s and the 90s. Say, a realistic piano patch requires several hundred megabytes of memory and this is possible today, whereas some of the first workstations only had one or two megabytes of memory. But for the type of sounds that you hear on Prince tracks like "Controversy" or "DMSR" the digital boards just aren't cutting it.

On the modern boards these type of sounds are generated by using algorithms that model the behavior of the synthesizers of yesteryear. If you open up any of those old synthesizers from the 70s or the early-80s there are tons of components inside and each section is handled by a circuitry dedicated to that function alone. It might seem like modern technology is really advanced, but it's a fact that there still isn't enough computing power available to handle more than just a fraction of what's going on inside an analog synthesizer. For that matter, there isn't even very detailed knowledge available what happens inside those circuits and what really contributes to the sound. The modern analog modeling synthesizers are just rough approximations of their behavior at best. The big companies like Korg, Roland and Yamaha have shown no real interest to start making analog synths again, despite a high demand for them. They stopped making them in the mid-80s and probably don't even have the production facilities needed for making them again. When analog sounds became fashionable again by the mid- and late-90s these companies merely started to do all these cheaper digital emulations of the old synths.

There are several manufacturers that still make analog synths, although these units also tend to sound a bit different to the older units due to component differences. It's safe to say that most electronic musicians prefer either the old analog synths or the new analog synths manufactured by the likes of Moog Music or Dave Smith Instruments. I don't know why commercially successful musicians like Prince, Herbie Hancock or Stevie Wonder use the digital emulations even for the analog sounds, but the main reasons are probably convenience and sponsorships by those bigger companies. I don't know why Prince in particular is so hardheaded in this regard, although to be honest he wasn't really relying on analog synths on many of his classic 80s albums (SOTT / Lovesexy used mostly early digital technology). Many bands have chosen to tour with the old instruments regardless of their potential maintenance problems. Many older analog synths have to be tuned carefully before each performance and repairing them also demands older components that can hard to find. This is not a problem with the newer ones, though.

Very well explained.

I'm getting ready to blow the dust off of my very analog old Korg Mono/Poly to record some "new" music. It'll be interesting to hear what it sounds like recorded with the very digital Pro Tools...LOL

[Edited 4/6/11 11:27am]

I can't say whether it's a more synth-led sound on the latest tour or not, since I haven't caught any of the shows, but I do know that having no horns section hasn't always meant having no horns (e.g. the Gold Experience era).

Militant said:

Prince didn't have a horn section in his band, or on his records till 1986.

Yes he did. The PR Tour had horns. There are also horns on The Ladder, Temptation and I would die 4 U extended version.

Horns on this tour would not sound right... this show is pure funk, rock and roll!! guitar licks and hits! horns with Prince had their place and time... don't see the need in them anymore.

Tremolina said:

Militant said:

Prince didn't have a horn section in his band, or on his records till 1986.

Yes he did. The PR Tour had horns. There are also horns on The Ladder, Temptation and I would die 4 U extended version.

"I'm a hardcore Prince fan with a ridiculously detailed knowledge that often takes people by surprise."

1978-1983 Prince didn't have horns.

[Edited 4/12/11 11:19am]

Saves money...more for Prince to pay off the lawsuits.

Gohi said:

Tremolina said:

Yes he did. The PR Tour had horns. There are also horns on The Ladder, Temptation and I would die 4 U extended version.

"I'm a hardcore Prince fan with a ridiculously detailed knowledge that often takes people by surprise."

The Lawd knows I am not! lol

Just a good listener and no bulshitter

dJJ said:

I have allways loved Maceo, Eric and Candy. Just love the sound of horns

However, most important is P playing the guitar and singing. And the piano, would not want to miss that.

And when he's having a great time, the show is greater than great. That's the most important ingredient there is. P enyoing himself and love going back and forth with the audiance.

I agree with you, while Ilove whatever is going on up there the show is always about Prince on guitar, Prince at the piano, and Prince singing. Could care less if anyone else shows up even. lololol

Prince doing anything i dont care what as long as he sounds great and is having a great time.

Hottest thing ever.

minneapolisFunq said:

I prefer synths but the weak assed workstations that are utilized these days never generate enough power and fail to recreate the vintage sounds.

I hate hearing 1999 on modern keyboards/ with horns. shit sounds weak.

Yes. I want to see a Linn LM-1 up there. I'd like Dr. Fink back... thats whats missing trust me...

bohurdle said:

I think it's interesting that Prince has no horn section on his current tour. Horns have been a centrical part of the Prince sound since the beginning, and I'm curious as to why he would select not to include horns in his current tour lineup. As a result, the lack of explosive funk and raw soul is evident in his performances as he played a medley of his most famous pop hits. Don't get me wrong, this is a fantastic show, but it fails in comparison to his previous performances and it's contributing band members.

Your thoughts?

P has 3 keyboard players a horn section is not needed ...