funksteer i obviously biased against Prince. Prince wont touch his back catalogue because he is demanding too much money. Just because he swore in a few songs doesnt mean the songs dont "hold up". Prince's back catalogue is one of the strongest from any solo artist. Period. Dirty Mind was labelled as a masterpiece from the time it came out. Songs like "When you were mine" or "Uptown" dont hold up, really? This is the same guy who then made 1999, Purple Rain, Parade and Sign, all fantastic albums As far as other musicians are concerned, what other musicians dont use studio musicians to help them?

If anything Prince took less help from studio musicians than most other solo artists have done so. He is one of the few critically and commercially successfull acts who plays majority of his instruments. He has also written virtually every one of his hits by himself except 7, which was co written

saying that Prince's back catalogue is mostly profane swearing is beyond laughable. This is the guy who wrote meaningful songs like "Sometimes it snows in april", talking about aids, abandoned kids in "Sign of the times", abandoned lover in "I could never take the place of your man", gender identity in "If I was your girlfriend", anti racism in "Uptown", beautiful love songs like " adore", "crucial", "pink cashmere", as well as very creative songs like "When Doves Cry" and "The Ballad of dorothy parker". This is all profane swearing right? Because we all know Prince is incapable of writing meaningful songs.

ParanoidAndroid said:

thedance said:

Just read the CD-booklet to "For You".

He is playing 27 instruments on that album....

...which were only different kind of keyboards and guitars

Really?

prodigalfan said:

ParanoidAndroid said:

thedance said: ...which were only different kind of keyboards and guitars

Really?

well they were different synthesisers. Anyway Prince can play a dozen instruments which is better than 99.999 percent of musicians. He is still one of the greatest multi instrumentalists ever, period.

hhhhdmt said:

funksteer i obviously biased against Prince. Prince wont touch his back catalogue because he is demanding too much money. Just because he swore in a few songs doesnt mean the songs dont "hold up". Prince's back catalogue is one of the strongest from any solo artist. Period. Dirty Mind was labelled as a masterpiece from the time it came out. Songs like "When you were mine" or "Uptown" dont hold up, really? This is the same guy who then made 1999, Purple Rain, Parade and Sign, all fantastic albums As far as other musicians are concerned, what other musicians dont use studio musicians to help them?

If anything Prince took less help from studio musicians than most other solo artists have done so. He is one of the few critically and commercially successfull acts who plays majority of his instruments. He has also written virtually every one of his hits by himself except 7, which was co written

You misunderstood me. I meant his new "clean" songs are pretty much awful. There are a few that are very good, but they are extremely rare. A musical genius shouldn't need shock antics, to write a good song.

hhhhdmt said:

saying that Prince's back catalogue is mostly profane swearing is beyond laughable. This is the guy who wrote meaningful songs like "Sometimes it snows in april", talking about aids, abandoned kids in "Sign of the times", abandoned lover in "I could never take the place of your man", gender identity in "If I was your girlfriend", anti racism in "Uptown", beautiful love songs like " adore", "crucial", "pink cashmere", as well as very creative songs like "When Doves Cry" and "The Ballad of dorothy parker". This is all profane swearing right? Because we all know Prince is incapable of writing meaningful songs.

The key word is mostly. I didn't say all. And I didn't limit that to swearing. But I think you are projecting your fantasies onto Prince, rather than looking at things from a more neutral position. For example, where did you got the idea that "Sometimes It Snows In April" was about aids? Is it not about the death of the character Christopher Tracy, who was shot in "Under The Cherry Moon"? You could talk about all kinds of other supposedly great songs, but they missed the mark for everyone outside of the Prince Fam Universe. The place where people are so desperate to believe Prince is the siht that they listen to utter crap over and over and over again until they finally love it. Then they can't understand why the rest of the world doesn't love it as much as they do.

skywalker said:

PlusSign said:

Some of it is juvenile, intentionally so, because Prince's whole attitude to creativity is infused with postmodern ecelecticism. Often the simplistic and the complex are juxtaposed in a single song, and to say that the music is RARELY above a very basic rock and soul level is just plain wrong. Sometimes it isn't, and at other times Prince's modulations, vocal harmonies and instrumental arrangements are as sophisticated as any elite art-rock or fusion. When you consider how profilic he is, if you distilled and aggragated the most sophisticated moments in his work, you would be hard pressed to find anyone outside the most serious jazz and classical composers who has an output to compare to it.

Yes.

The only time Prince was poppin' on the level you describe was with major contributions from the extended Revolution. Outside of that, he has at times sounded like a kid with a 16 track recorder. That is inexcusable.

I'll concede that his vocal harmonies, when present, are consistently outstanding, over the years. The ability to create them appears to be one of Prince's personal songwriting strengths. I also can't deny that sometimes Prince's backing tracks are highly professional and that he alone is likely responsible for that. But that combination is common, dare I say an absolute necessity, in the professional songwriting biz. It doesn't make him a genius.

A bad song is a bad song even if a guy plays and sings the hell out of all of the parts.

funksterr said:

hhhhdmt said:

saying that Prince's back catalogue is mostly profane swearing is beyond laughable. This is the guy who wrote meaningful songs like "Sometimes it snows in april", talking about aids, abandoned kids in "Sign of the times", abandoned lover in "I could never take the place of your man", gender identity in "If I was your girlfriend", anti racism in "Uptown", beautiful love songs like " adore", "crucial", "pink cashmere", as well as very creative songs like "When Doves Cry" and "The Ballad of dorothy parker". This is all profane swearing right? Because we all know Prince is incapable of writing meaningful songs.

The key word is mostly. I didn't say all. And I didn't limit that to swearing. But I think you are projecting your fantasies onto Prince, rather than looking at things from a more neutral position. For example, where did you got the idea that "Sometimes It Snows In April" was about aids? Is it not about the death of the character Christopher Tracy, who was shot in "Under The Cherry Moon"? You could talk about all kinds of other supposedly great songs, but they missed the mark for everyone outside of the Prince Fam Universe. The place where people are so desperate to believe Prince is the siht that they listen to utter crap over and over and over again until they finally love it. Then they can't understand why the rest of the world doesn't love it as much as they do.

i never said sometimes it snows in april is about aids, its about christopher tracy. Sign was about aids. Prince gets more respect from most critics and musicians than most artists do. That is a fact. Is Prince one of the most critically acclamied acts in music? yes he is.

funksterr said:

hhhhdmt said:

funksteer i obviously biased against Prince. Prince wont touch his back catalogue because he is demanding too much money. Just because he swore in a few songs doesnt mean the songs dont "hold up". Prince's back catalogue is one of the strongest from any solo artist. Period. Dirty Mind was labelled as a masterpiece from the time it came out. Songs like "When you were mine" or "Uptown" dont hold up, really? This is the same guy who then made 1999, Purple Rain, Parade and Sign, all fantastic albums As far as other musicians are concerned, what other musicians dont use studio musicians to help them?

If anything Prince took less help from studio musicians than most other solo artists have done so. He is one of the few critically and commercially successfull acts who plays majority of his instruments. He has also written virtually every one of his hits by himself except 7, which was co written

You misunderstood me. I meant his new "clean" songs are pretty much awful. There are a few that are very good, but they are extremely rare. A musical genius shouldn't need shock antics, to write a good song.

Most artists are at their song writing peak in their twenties. Not their forties or fifties. Back in the 80's Prince had plenty of great lyrics without swearing. Examples:

when you were mind

Uptown

When Doves Cry

Purple Rain

SISIA

Sign of the times

I could never take the place of your man

If i was your girlfriend

Adore

The Ballad of dorothy Parker

Pink Cashmere

Crucial

Anna Stesia

The fact is Prince's back catalogue is widely regarded as one of the best from any solo artist. And it is. Not he did not "mostly swear". A few songs here and there, and he had the guts to do it.

Where is the "shock antic" in any of the above songs? Why is sign of the times one of the most critically accclaimed albums in music history? Because of swearing? Yes prince needed swearing to write a song like IIWYGF or Adore or ICNTTPOYM.

[Edited 3/10/11 7:51am]

funksterr said:

But if you look at it honestly, a lot of Prince's music is juvenile and profane.

So is the work of Chaucer and Shakespeare.

oh and i forgot about stuff he wrote for others which became hits like "Nothing compares 2 u", "love--- thy will be done" which were widely well liked by the public and music critics. Any swearing there? Or does the ordinary pop/rock prince need to "swear" to write a good song?

Most musical acts Prince's age are either using other songwriters (which prince doesnt do that often) or releasing an album every few years so they can accumulate enough decent material to come up with a good album after every 3-4 years. Prince doesnt do either, he still has the guts to release albums without employing other writers or waiting too long between albums. Yet he gets judged on his recent work while most other acts get judged on what they did during their peak. Fact is his output between 1979-1988 is one of the very best from any artist. He covered so much ground from disco to funk, to rock to Psychedelia to top to pop to R&B to blues and soul and so on. There are very few artists who have shown such stunning range, as well as writing almost every one of his big hits and learning multiple instruments. Plus he had the guts to do different things like an acoustic album, side projects in jazz, a piano based album. Hard to think of even 5 other musical acts who have shown such range, mastering multiple instruments and writing critically and commercially successfull songs and doing creative side projects too.

there has been alot of anti prince trolling on this thread so lets get back to the topic. I believe prince was first regarded as a musical genius by critics back in 1980 when dirty mind came out. He had devoloped his own kind of sound which alot of critics loved. By the public? Probably around Purple rain

His peak was undoubtedly sign when he had pretty much reached his song writing peak. Sign got more critical praise than anything he has done, before or since and i think it solidified his genius.

Yes i do regard him as a genius as well as a great all rounder.

hhhhdmt said:

funksterr said:

The key word is mostly. I didn't say all. And I didn't limit that to swearing. But I think you are projecting your fantasies onto Prince, rather than looking at things from a more neutral position. For example, where did you got the idea that "Sometimes It Snows In April" was about aids? Is it not about the death of the character Christopher Tracy, who was shot in "Under The Cherry Moon"? You could talk about all kinds of other supposedly great songs, but they missed the mark for everyone outside of the Prince Fam Universe. The place where people are so desperate to believe Prince is the siht that they listen to utter crap over and over and over again until they finally love it. Then they can't understand why the rest of the world doesn't love it as much as they do.

i never said sometimes it snows in april is about aids, its about christopher tracy. Sign was about aids. Prince gets more respect from most critics and musicians than most artists do. That is a fact. Is Prince one of the most critically acclamied acts in music? yes he is.

Umm plenty of critics pan Prince's music, but mainstream professional music critics are generally a paid part of the promotion game. When they get hooked up, they praise the album. When they don't get anything, they hate it. It doesn't really matter much what they are saying.

hhhhdmt said:

funksterr said:

You misunderstood me. I meant his new "clean" songs are pretty much awful. There are a few that are very good, but they are extremely rare. A musical genius shouldn't need shock antics, to write a good song.

Most artists are at their song writing peak in their twenties. Not their forties or fifties. Back in the 80's Prince had plenty of great lyrics without swearing. Examples:

when you were mind

Uptown

When Doves Cry

Purple Rain

SISIA

Sign of the times

I could never take the place of your man

If i was your girlfriend

Adore

The Ballad of dorothy Parker

Pink Cashmere

Crucial

Anna Stesia

The fact is Prince's back catalogue is widely regarded as one of the best from any solo artist. And it is. Not he did not "mostly swear". A few songs here and there, and he had the guts to do it.

Where is the "shock antic" in any of the above songs? Why is sign of the times one of the most critically accclaimed albums in music history? Because of swearing? Yes prince needed swearing to write a song like IIWYGF or Adore or ICNTTPOYM.

[Edited 3/10/11 7:51am]

OK, excuse number one for FAMS is back: Prince is too old to write great material. I don't believe that age has anything to do with it. I don't know what song SISIA is, but of the songs you listed there are references to one night stands, "f*cking for kicks", cheating on a grilfriend, group sex, multiple lovers and plenty of other things generally considered immoral. Profane is not limited simply to curse words. Prince records are generally "blue" and that more than anything is why kids found them appealling. It was not really the music, it was because he was an amoral bad-ass . Prince himself knows this, has mostly turned his back on that type of material and is trying to do better. But that's where you can see the struggle. He isn't that good without the filth, thus he's no genius.

funksterr said:

hhhhdmt said:

Most artists are at their song writing peak in their twenties. Not their forties or fifties. Back in the 80's Prince had plenty of great lyrics without swearing. Examples:

when you were mind

Uptown

When Doves Cry

Purple Rain

SISIA

Sign of the times

I could never take the place of your man

If i was your girlfriend

Adore

The Ballad of dorothy Parker

Pink Cashmere

Crucial

Anna Stesia

The fact is Prince's back catalogue is widely regarded as one of the best from any solo artist. And it is. Not he did not "mostly swear". A few songs here and there, and he had the guts to do it.

Where is the "shock antic" in any of the above songs? Why is sign of the times one of the most critically accclaimed albums in music history? Because of swearing? Yes prince needed swearing to write a song like IIWYGF or Adore or ICNTTPOYM.

[Edited 3/10/11 7:51am]

OK, excuse number one for FAMS is back: Prince is too old to write great material. I don't believe that age has anything to do with it. I don't know what song SISIA is, but of the songs you listed there are references to one night stands, "f*cking for kicks", cheating on a grilfriend, group sex, multiple lovers and plenty of other things generally considered immoral. Profane is not limited simply to curse words. Prince records are generally "blue" and that more than anything is why kids found them appealling. It was not really the music, it was because he was an amoral bad-ass . Prince himself knows this, has mostly turned his back on that type of material and is trying to do better. But that's where you can see the struggle. He isn't that good without the filth, thus he's no genius.

Prince still writes great material. Prove me wrong.

funksterr said:

hhhhdmt said:

Most artists are at their song writing peak in their twenties. Not their forties or fifties. Back in the 80's Prince had plenty of great lyrics without swearing. Examples:

when you were mind

Uptown

When Doves Cry

Purple Rain

SISIA

Sign of the times

I could never take the place of your man

If i was your girlfriend

Adore

The Ballad of dorothy Parker

Pink Cashmere

Crucial

Anna Stesia

The fact is Prince's back catalogue is widely regarded as one of the best from any solo artist. And it is. Not he did not "mostly swear". A few songs here and there, and he had the guts to do it.

Where is the "shock antic" in any of the above songs? Why is sign of the times one of the most critically accclaimed albums in music history? Because of swearing? Yes prince needed swearing to write a song like IIWYGF or Adore or ICNTTPOYM.

[Edited 3/10/11 7:51am]

OK, excuse number one for FAMS is back: Prince is too old to write great material. I don't believe that age has anything to do with it. I don't know what song SISIA is, but of the songs you listed there are references to one night stands, "f*cking for kicks", cheating on a grilfriend, group sex, multiple lovers and plenty of other things generally considered immoral. Profane is not limited simply to curse words. Prince records are generally "blue" and that more than anything is why kids found them appealling. It was not really the music, it was because he was an amoral bad-ass . Prince himself knows this, has mostly turned his back on that type of material and is trying to do better. But that's where you can see the struggle. He isn't that good without the filth, thus he's no genius.

those songs are excellent compositions and you are clueless. Prince is one of the most critically successfull acts ever, that is a fact. He is widely regarded as a genius by music critics and pro musicians as a genius so i could care less about what you say. If you cannot say how great songs like i could never take the place of your man or anna stesia or iiwygf are, then i can't help you. Yes he is a genius.

Why is sign of the times one of the most critically acclaimed albums in music history? How many critics have panned it? Please name me these critics because 99.99 percent of critics regard it as a masterpiece. Where is the filth in sign? Please, where is it?

Age has plenty to do with it. Most of prince's best songs in the 80's had nothing to do with cursing. Sign of the times is a master piece without any filth, thus prince is a genius. I'd love to see the names of the critics who panned sign

And while we are at it, name me other artists who are as good in their forties/fifties as they are in their twenties? I am waiting for your reply.

funksterr said:

hhhhdmt said:

i never said sometimes it snows in april is about aids, its about christopher tracy. Sign was about aids. Prince gets more respect from most critics and musicians than most artists do. That is a fact. Is Prince one of the most critically acclamied acts in music? yes he is.

Umm plenty of critics pan Prince's music, but mainstream professional music critics are generally a paid part of the promotion game. When they get hooked up, they praise the album. When they don't get anything, they hate it. It doesn't really matter much what they are saying.

they pan his recent stuff since he is no longer at his peak. What percentage of critics panned sign? Or purple rain? Show me

And most songw writers are at their peak in their twenties. You wont find too many guys making the best music of their lives in the forties. When were Lennon or Mccartney at their peaks? Bowie? Or any other good/great songwriter? 99 percent of the best songwriters i have seen are at their peak in their twenties

If you think adore or sign or icnttpoym or iiwygf or wdc are "filthy" songs and not great compositions then you probably have poor taste in music or a hatred for prince. Or you're one of those mj trolls who repeatedly troll these forums to insult prince.

I am also still waiting for the names of the critics who "panned" albums like sign since 99.99 percent seem to love it and regard it as a masterpiece.

funksterr said:

Prince records are generally "blue" and that more than anything is why kids found them appealling. It was not really the music, it was because he was an amoral bad-ass . Prince himself knows this, has mostly turned his back on that type of material and is trying to do better. But that's where you can see the struggle. He isn't that good without the filth, thus he's no genius.

What has Prince's popularity among "kids" as you put it got to do with whether he's a musical genius? Most of his hits aren't even close to his best work anyway. And what have his lyrics got to with it? I consider Prince a very mediocre lyricist but I have little hesitation in rating him a musical genius.

June 7, 1958.

Probably when you read in the biographies, about how his high school music teacher said he was a genius as he would come into class and pick up an instrument, and thrash away at it. Chris Moon got an inkling too, when he wanted some guitar on a jingle and Prince offered to do, add drums, bass and keyboards as well, and that was the clincher that made him offer Prince his first studio deal. Also Moon said "My artist can play all instruments like Stevie Wonder and plus he can see" to Owen Husney.

So my guess is around 1975 (Even before then, Prince was known to teach everyone else in Grand Central their musical parts and demonstrate them). As far as I am concerned Prince was born a musical genius.

A better question would've been when did YOU first consider Prince to be a musical genius?

Because I always thought he was and is.

Timmy84 said:

A better question would've been when did YOU first consider Prince to be a musical genius?

Because I always thought he was and is.

Timmy84 said:

A better question would've been when did YOU first consider Prince to be a musical genius?

Because I always thought he was and is.

Yup! I've always found myself playing catch up with Prince's music. Once when I got bitten by the Purple Rain bug in 1984 and realized it was his 6th album I did some backtracking and then I discovered wow, this guy is a genius. and again in 2004 since I stopped following Prince for a long time and did some backtracking from 2004 annd prior, and same thing, Prince is a genius, coming across a few great gems.

He probably was first considered to be a musical genius when he finally mastered piano, bass, guitar and drums.

And to general public (critics etc)- in 1978 [1979 outside of North America]

Timmy84 said:

A better question would've been when did YOU first consider Prince to be a musical genius?

Because I always thought he was and is.

THIS

Prince and Dirty Mind told me he was great. But Controversy.... right in the middle of one of the greatest funk jams he stops..... Our Father... etc that to me was THE genius moment. Who does that? Have you ever heard such a thing? That song, drum beat, the LORD's Prayer all of it. In full glory, none of that HIS or HIM the LORD right out in the open, by name in the middle of the funk? Nobody would have seen any of this coming. Then right after that he goes right back into the funk jam! Wow.

And remember this was before 1982. To me genius, always. smh

617automatic said:

Controversy.... right in the middle of one of the greatest funk jams he stops..... Our Father... etc that to me was THE genius moment. Who does that? Have you ever heard such a thing? That song, drum beat, the LORD's Prayer all of it. In full glory, none of that HIS or HIM the LORD right out in the open, by name in the middle of the funk? Nobody would have seen any of this coming. Then right after that he goes right back into the funk jam! Wow.

What that has to do with Prince being a musical genius is beyond me.

His chord modulations, instrumental work and vox harmonies all speak of his genius. His tendency to smear his songs with lyrics containing religious superstition and adolescent libido are going to appeal to people in different ways. To you it might be genius (though I really can't see how it's MUSICAL genius), to me that aspect of his work is kitchy, tasteless and gratuitous.

[Edited 3/14/11 14:15pm]

Whoever said "Juvenile and Profane" and "Basic Rock and Soul Level" needs their head read. Compare Prince's early music to the rubbish coming out today, instruments are virtually unknown outside of rock, all Hip hop and pop is based on sampling, drum machines, rapping and vocals. Is there any song on the charts now that does not have "feat ....." in the title and the person featured does nothing than swear rap his way between verses. Yes the early albums had a lot of explicit lyrics, but young men in their early 20s kind of do that, his music from 1999 shows more maturity and the sex and profanity in the SOTT to Batman era sounds more grown up (The quality of music and lyrics dropped in the early -mid 90s), but all his music from The Truth onwards has a grown up feel about it. And the music was way above "basic rock and soul level", listen to the violins on Purple Rain the guitar virtuoso solo at the end of Lets go crazy and virtually all the guitar, keyboards, drums, percussion, layered vocal techniques (eg Adore) in the Purple Rain to Lovesexy period and his use of Melisma and vibrato, he is way above a basic level of rock and soul. At the very least Prince is pops answer to Yo Yo Ma or Vanessa Mae. Albums like sign o the times encompass many styles of popular music, whereas a lot of other iconic artists music all sounds the same or is limited to one genre.

And yes there was some swearing, but look at it this way, he only swears on Sister in Dirty Mind, not at all on Controversy, only on Lets Pretend were married on 1999, not at all again until adore when he says "Fuckin just for kicks" and you can barely hear it in amongst all the melisma. So honestly are one or two f words really enough to label him "Juvenile and profane". Generally Prince's most swear world laden period goes from Sexy MF in 1992 to The Truth in 1998 (He says Motherfucker a lot), and we mostly agree that the mid 90s period was not his greatest stretch and nothing like the work of a decade earlier. This man has been unfairly judged by music snobs when it comes to this. You compare Prince's expletive output in the 80s to Rap artists like Ice T and NWA whose 1988 albums contained swearing in nearly every song and a cumulative total of f words reaching into the 100s, yet these guys are hailed as Gods and Prince is seen as a possibly gay pervert, come on!!!

Plus hes a genius for the fact he is a skilled composer, and can do all of the parts of a five piece, Guitar, Drums, Bass, Keyboards and Vocals. Prince is a musician not just a singer and dancer like MJ was. Prince to me is more than a pop star, he is the complete musician and an accomplished one at that. I respect like someone would Miles Davis or Arturo Toscanini rather than a mere pop singer like Lady Gaga or Nickelback.

There should be no question of how much a genius a Prince is., and like all true geniuses, he has been guilty of squandering his talents or spreading them thin in some places. But hey a genius does not mean perfection, Mozart had off days too.

Still I will concede to the classical music lovers and high art afficionados that Prince may not be called a Musical Genius, but no one should disagree that he is at least a "Pop Music Genius".

[Edited 3/20/11 13:15pm]

they promoted him as genius as soon as he came out. so i guess some people at warner already considered him a genius, even though i think the fact that they declared his age a year younger than his real one is a little bit of a pity.

Folks are also forgetting to mention that he was a child prodigy playing piano by ear way before his multi instrument teen years at the age of six. His own father stated that Prince could do things on piano that he could do by the time he was six, and other things even he could not do. He went on to learn dozens of instruments and became a virtuoso in most of them, not to mention he sings and does most of the background harmonies. When harmonizing one vocal part can be out of key and the whole thing would fall flat, listen to seven ( not a favorite of mine but his ability to sing a one man choir like that is amazing ).. then comes his live stage performance he later developed, making him one of the greatest live performers in history. Not to mention that he can come up with catchy and creative songs at the drop of a hat in many different genres, all of this makes for a way above average musician/performer, like Stevie Wonder, on a genius level. To answer the question I am not sure when exactly he got the genius tag, I have wondered this myself, I would agree with many that said it may have been after Purple Rain.

[Edited 3/20/11 14:41pm]

[Edited 3/20/11 14:43pm]