He seemed to be marketted as a musical whiz-kid from For You onwards, but was it Purple Rain that cemented the perception of Prince as a musical genius?

Also, do you consider him to be a genius or just a supremely competant all-rounder?

[Edited 3/9/11 3:22am]

Fiona01 said:

He seemed to be marketted as a musical whiz-kid from For You onwards, but was it Purple Rain that cemented the perception of Prince as a musical genius?

Also, do you consider him to be a genius or just a supremely competant all-rounder?

[Edited 3/9/11 3:22am]

It was yesterday.

Fiona01 said:

He seemed to be marketted as a musical whiz-kid from For You onwards, but was it Purple Rain that cemented the perception of Prince as the musical genius?

Also, do you consider him to be a genius or just supremely competant?

These are strange questions.

Considered to be a musical genius by who? Warners Bros? His management? His fans? Rock critics? Or the general public?

Prince was being heralded as a musical genius by some rock critics as early as "Dirty Mind". But obviously as far as the general public are concerned, then obviously there's a direct correlation between sales/popularity and public perception, so yes, it would be "Purple Rain".

The term genius means different things to different people. I consider him a musical genius, yes. But it's relative to your field as well. I don't expect someone who is only a fan of classical music to consider him so.

Musical genius is a marketing phrase. And no one bought into the sales talk more than Prince himself. But if you look at it honestly, a lot of Prince's music is juvenile and profane. The music itself is rarely above a very basic rock and soul level, and where it does exceed common limitations, we now know he had major input from his hired bands. Prince is a hard worker and talented in many ways musically. From an industry stand point Prince may be the greatest executive producer in the history of music, because he consistently ties it all together into a finished product. But musical genius is definitely an overstatement.

Just read the CD-booklet to "For You".

He is playing 27 instruments on that album....

funksterr said:

Musical genius is a marketing phrase. And no one bought into the sales talk more than Prince himself. But if you look at it honestly, a lot of Prince's music is juvenile and profane. The music itself is rarely above a very basic rock and soul level, and where it does exceed common limitations, we now know he had major input from his hired bands. Prince is a hard worker and talented in many ways musically. From an industry stand point Prince may be the greatest executive producer in the history of music, because he consistently ties it all together into a finished product. But musical genius is definitely an overstatement.

You could say the same thing about much of The Beatles catalogue and yet Lennon/McCartney are still considered genius songwriters. Most popular music is irreverant and juvenile.

funksterr said:

Musical genius is a marketing phrase. And no one bought into the sales talk more than Prince himself. But if you look at it honestly, a lot of Prince's music is juvenile and profane. The music itself is rarely above a very basic rock and soul level, and where it does exceed common limitations, we now know he had major input from his hired bands. Prince is a hard worker and talented in many ways musically. From an industry stand point Prince may be the greatest executive producer in the history of music, because he consistently ties it all together into a finished product. But musical genius is definitely an overstatement.

1. Name someone in popular music who you consider to be a musical genius.

2. Give a concrete example of Prince's hired band members contributing major input to prople the music to "exceed common limitations".

3. I disagree that Prince's music " is rarely above a very basic rock and soul level". First of all, it is very unclear/ambiguous wording on your part. Secondly, considering you level this claim at Prince's music, who in popular music exceeds this label of yours?

[Edited 3/9/11 9:44am]

They were hyping him producing and writing his own songs as a teenager, his guitar playing is great, and was able to come up with memorable hit songs that stuck in people's heads.

People who are in the "natural musician" category usually get the genius label, or they are exceptional at their instrument where no one else thought of it. When they take a risk and it works in their favor, they also get the "genius" label.

The question is how fast Prince picks up an instrument and became competent at it. Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" gives 10,000 hours as the standard at becoming great. I'm sure he'd break down Prince's upbringing and figure out being around his father, going to the concerts and focusing on what the musicians in the band were doing on their instruments, listening to "progressive rock" and learning it, playing along to the records, any music classes he took, any lessons he may have taken, and by the time he was signed to a contract hit the 10,000 hour mark. All that time in the studio since then would also apply, the first tour, etc. Some people absorb certain things over others, have abilities over others, but sometimes they're too shy to be able to take it in front of people, so they become closet musicians as a hobby. He built that image partly to overcome shyness, and also knew it worked in pulling girls.

A classical guitarist would smoke him on electric guitar, but an electric guitarist can figure creative ways of making the guitar sound like a million different things. That's why U2's Edge is successful in his craft and a pretty simple guitar player without it. What Brian Eno did with tapes, Edge did with the guitar. That's why they work great together.

I was actually going to start a similar topic.

What interests me is when exactly were the first articles and reviews published that called him a genius. It became pretty ubiquitous by the end of the 1980s - that word was constantly used to describe him. I don't mean any "boy genius" stuff used as a marketing tool for "For You" or anything like that, but genuine adoration from the journalists and other musicians.

Fiona01 said:

He seemed to be marketted as a musical whiz-kid from For You onwards, but was it Purple Rain that cemented the perception of Prince as a musical genius?

Also, do you consider him to be a genius or just a supremely competant all-rounder?

[Edited 3/9/11 3:22am]

Well, it was definitely sometime before his first appearance on American bandstand, because Dick Clarke had asked Prince how many instruments he played (due to the fact that he heard Prince could play many). Prince of course, feyed out in his Farrah Fawsette hairdo, ridiculous gold pants, and lung-constricting tight shirt, not answering a damned question Clarke had asked him with a straight response.

But I remember reading in Rolling Stone Magazine around 1985/86ish about Prince. The article made mention of his explicit lyrics and how he was best known for that--and then continued to say that it was a shame because there was some real genius in his material or something to that affect.

thedance said:

novabrkr said:

It became pretty ubiquitous by the end of the 1980s - that word was constantly used to describe him.

I think "Sign O' The Times" is largely to thank for that. That album really showed the scope of what Prince was capable of, showing such incredible versatility whilst still remaining cohesive.

funksterr said:

a lot of Prince's music is juvenile and profane. The music itself is rarely above a very basic rock and soul level

Some of it is juvenile, intentionally so, because Prince's whole attitude to creativity is infused with postmodern ecelecticism. Often the simplistic and the complex are juxtaposed in a single song, and to say that the music is RARELY above a very basic rock and soul level is just plain wrong. Sometimes it isn't, and at other times Prince's modulations, vocal harmonies and instrumental arrangements are as sophisticated as any elite art-rock or fusion. When you consider how profilic he is, if you distilled and aggragated the most sophisticated moments in his work, you would be hard pressed to find anyone outside the most serious jazz and classical composers who has an output to compare to it.

PlusSign said:

funksterr said:

a lot of Prince's music is juvenile and profane. The music itself is rarely above a very basic rock and soul level

Some of it is juvenile, intentionally so, because Prince's whole attitude to creativity is infused with postmodern ecelecticism. Often the simplistic and the complex are juxtaposed in a single song, and to say that the music is RARELY above a very basic rock and soul level is just plain wrong. Sometimes it isn't, and at other times Prince's modulations, vocal harmonies and instrumental arrangements are as sophisticated as any elite art-rock or fusion. When you consider how profilic he is, if you distilled and aggragated the most sophisticated moments in his work, you would be hard pressed to find anyone outside the most serious jazz and classical composers who has an output to compare to it.

I agree.

However, I think you need a spell checker. I'm not a native speaker of English myself, so having installed one helps me in many cases.

PlusSign said:

funksterr said:

a lot of Prince's music is juvenile and profane. The music itself is rarely above a very basic rock and soul level

Some of it is juvenile, intentionally so, because Prince's whole attitude to creativity is infused with postmodern ecelecticism. Often the simplistic and the complex are juxtaposed in a single song, and to say that the music is RARELY above a very basic rock and soul level is just plain wrong. Sometimes it isn't, and at other times Prince's modulations, vocal harmonies and instrumental arrangements are as sophisticated as any elite art-rock or fusion. When you consider how profilic he is, if you distilled and aggragated the most sophisticated moments in his work, you would be hard pressed to find anyone outside the most serious jazz and classical composers who has an output to compare to it.

Yes.

Fiona01 said:

He seemed to be marketted as a musical whiz-kid from For You onwards, but was it Purple Rain that cemented the perception of Prince as a musical genius?

Also, do you consider him to be a genius or just a supremely competant all-rounder?

[Edited 3/9/11 3:22am]

Imho he's a musical genius, but I don't think he has always been labelled as such for the right reasons. He isn't close to a virtuoso on any one instrument. So in that sense, he is a "supremelely competent all-rounder". His ability to improvise on guitar is particularly overrated. There are moments though, especially on piano, where it's obvious that if he trained his full focus on it he wouldn't have much trouble attaining a virtuosic level. Prince has sacrificed this hypothetical career in favour of amazing prolificacy, versatility and originality as a songwriter-arranger-producer-vocalist-instrumentalist. The quantity, quality and diversity of his output would have been impossible for him to achieve without the obsession and innate talent that imho "musical genius" implies.

When I first heard him sing and that's all that matters

Militant said:

Fiona01 said:

He seemed to be marketted as a musical whiz-kid from For You onwards, but was it Purple Rain that cemented the perception of Prince as the musical genius?

Also, do you consider him to be a genius or just supremely competant?

These are strange questions.

Considered to be a musical genius by who? Warners Bros? His management? His fans? Rock critics? Or the general public?

Prince was being heralded as a musical genius by some rock critics as early as "Dirty Mind". But obviously as far as the general public are concerned, then obviously there's a direct correlation between sales/popularity and public perception, so yes, it would be "Purple Rain".

The term genius means different things to different people. I consider him a musical genius, yes. But it's relative to your field as well. I don't expect someone who is only a fan of classical music to consider him so.

Good point, but one category you forgot to mention are his peers. I have heard Elton John, Robert Plant, Stevie Nicks, Mavis Staples and Eric Clapton all unequivocally call Prince a musical genius.

Personally I prefer classical music to most popular music. (I play rock music professionally, but I listen more to classical, jazz and fusion.) I consider Prince a musical genius and I know classical composers and conductors who do as well. It doesn't necessarily mean they enjoy his music as much or value it as highly as classical music. Prince's work (like most popular music) lacks certain elements of artistry that you find in classical music, such as deeply-crafted structure and extensive thematic development. In that sense what he does could arguably be considered a "lower" grade of artistic expression. But that's a whole topic of aesthetic criticism to itself, and even if accepted, it doesn't preclude his being a musical genius.

[Edited 3/9/11 10:44am]

PlusSign said:

Militant said:

These are strange questions.

Considered to be a musical genius by who? Warners Bros? His management? His fans? Rock critics? Or the general public?

Prince was being heralded as a musical genius by some rock critics as early as "Dirty Mind". But obviously as far as the general public are concerned, then obviously there's a direct correlation between sales/popularity and public perception, so yes, it would be "Purple Rain".

The term genius means different things to different people. I consider him a musical genius, yes. But it's relative to your field as well. I don't expect someone who is only a fan of classical music to consider him so.

Good point, but one category you forgot to mention are his peers. I have heard Elton John, Robert Plant, Stevie Nicks, Mavis Staples and Eric Clapton all unequivocally call Prince a musical genius.

Personally I prefer classical music to most popular music. (I play rock music professionally, but I listen more to classical, jazz and fusion.) I consider Prince a musical genius and I know classical composers and conductors who do as well. It doesn't necessarily mean they enjoy his music as much or value it as highly as classical music. Prince's work (like most popular music) lacks certain elements of artistry that you find in classical music, such as deeply-crafted structure and extensive thematic development. In that sense what he does could arguably be considered a "lower" grade of artistic expression. But that's a whole topic of aesthetic criticism to itself, and even if accepted, it doesn't preclude his being a musical genius.

[Edited 3/9/11 10:44am]

Well said.

Militant is correct. I posted some Prince on a jazz site and they mocked it, thought Prince was an untalented hack. To each his own.

SagsWay2low said:

Fiona01 said:

He seemed to be marketted as a musical whiz-kid from For You onwards, but was it Purple Rain that cemented the perception of Prince as a musical genius?

Also, do you consider him to be a genius or just a supremely competant all-rounder?

[Edited 3/9/11 3:22am]

Well, it was definitely sometime before his first appearance on American bandstand, because Dick Clarke had asked Prince how many instruments he played (due to the fact that he heard Prince could play many). Prince of course, feyed out in his Farrah Fawsette hairdo, ridiculous gold pants, and lung-constricting tight shirt, not answering a damned question Clarke had asked him with a straight response.

But I remember reading in Rolling Stone Magazine around 1985/86ish about Prince. The article made mention of his explicit lyrics and how he was best known for that--and then continued to say that it was a shame because there was some real genius in his material or something to that affect.

I was about to say the "American Bandstand" performance with Dick Clark but you beat me to it. The next time I heard it was on a weekly radio countdown show during the "Controversy" era called "Coast To Coast Soul".

And hey, I love that outfit and hairdo he had on "American Bandstand". He was fish as hell! That was the first time I had ever seen him and that was around a year or two after when people first started calling me a "fag" and I didn't even know what the hell it was. When someone tried to explain to me what it was, I still couldn't understand it. When I saw Prince in that performance though, I immediately put two and two together and figured it out.

.

.

.

[Edited 3/9/11 11:32am]

funksterr said:

Musical genius is a marketing phrase. And no one bought into the sales talk more than Prince himself. But if you look at it honestly, a lot of Prince's music is juvenile and profane. The music itself is rarely above a very basic rock and soul level, and where it does exceed common limitations, we now know he had major input from his hired bands. Prince is a hard worker and talented in many ways musically. From an industry stand point Prince may be the greatest executive producer in the history of music, because he consistently ties it all together into a finished product. But musical genius is definitely an overstatement.

As opposed 2 who?

funksterr said:

Musical genius is a marketing phrase.

Strange that Elton John, Robert Plant, Stevie Nicks, Mavis Staples, Maceo Parker, Eric Clapton and others should all have dipped into marketing jargon just to promote Prince. Well I suppose it could be argued that Mavis and Maceo had ulterior motives.

2freaky4church1 said:

Militant is correct. I posted some Prince on a jazz site and they mocked it, thought Prince was an untalented hack. To each his own.

Just out of curiosity, what did you post?

Prince has a pretty good rep in the jazz world for his usual pop / funk stuff. If on the other hand you were to post his NPGMC era jazz-fusion material then, sure, I can see why there would be such comments.

However, I think people that keep making all these "Prince can't play jazz" comments must have just listened to too good jazz.

There's certainly plenty of mediocre and plain bad jazz and fusion if you go to clubs or listen to some records that aren't very well known. It all certainly doesn't compare to Miles, Monk, Coltrane and others of the kind. For that matter, there's plenty of fusion stuff that has rock guitarists that do not really play in a jazz style at all even if the rest of the would do that. Why couldn't Prince operate successfully in such a setting as a guitarist? Jazz is typically performed in a band context, so if he would play with the right musicians I don't see why it wouldn't work. For the most part, I find the biggest weakest aspect of Prince's instrumental works to be simply the sounds they were using (the synths, drums, reverberation etc.). Good jazz or fusion doesn't have to be played at a really fast pace all the time, provided that you have the musical ideas well thought out.

PlusSign said:

funksterr said:

Musical genius is a marketing phrase.

Strange that Elton John, Robert Plant, Stevie Nicks, Mavis Staples, Maceo Parker, Eric Clapton and others should all have dipped into marketing jargon just to promote Prince. Well I suppose it could be argued that Mavis and Maceo had ulterior motives.

I doubt they know much about how Prince makes his albums. They just hear what's on the radio or whatever. And yes, all the time, people in the same industry over compliment each other publicly. Nothing really wrong with that.

Graycap23 said:

funksterr said:

Musical genius is a marketing phrase. And no one bought into the sales talk more than Prince himself. But if you look at it honestly, a lot of Prince's music is juvenile and profane. The music itself is rarely above a very basic rock and soul level, and where it does exceed common limitations, we now know he had major input from his hired bands. Prince is a hard worker and talented in many ways musically. From an industry stand point Prince may be the greatest executive producer in the history of music, because he consistently ties it all together into a finished product. But musical genius is definitely an overstatement.

As opposed 2 who?

Prince himself won't even touch most of his own catalog, because he knows it's often mostly profane posturing. He has instead tried to cultivate some more mature ideas, but so far it hasn't clicked. More often than not the songs don't hold up.

[Edited 3/9/11 20:31pm]

Fiona01 said:

He seemed to be marketted as a musical whiz-kid from For You onwards, but was it Purple Rain that cemented the perception of Prince as a musical genius?

Also, do you consider him to be a genius or just a supremely competant all-rounder?

[Edited 3/9/11 3:22am]

The moment Prince gave the mike to Tony M and still survived....now that was fucking genius!

funksterr said:

Musical genius is a marketing phrase. And no one bought into the sales talk more than Prince himself. But if you look at it honestly, a lot of Prince's music is juvenile and profane. The music itself is rarely above a very basic rock and soul level, and where it does exceed common limitations, we now know he had major input from his hired bands. Prince is a hard worker and talented in many ways musically. From an industry stand point Prince may be the greatest executive producer in the history of music, because he consistently ties it all together into a finished product. But musical genius is definitely an overstatement.

I am shocked by this post. You're way off the mark.

SPOOKYGAS said:

Fiona01 said:

He seemed to be marketted as a musical whiz-kid from For You onwards, but was it Purple Rain that cemented the perception of Prince as a musical genius?

Also, do you consider him to be a genius or just a supremely competant all-rounder?

[Edited 3/9/11 3:22am]

The moment Prince gave the mike to Tony M and still survived....now that was fucking genius!

And there you have it. We have a Winner.

funksterr said: