Interesting article regarding new socuments found that shed more light on Lincoln's complicated racial views. I post this only because I remember a very long thread where people literally questioned Prince's sanity for his outlandish views as stated in the song. This is one of those things that proves that there is always more to the history we are taught in school, and that conflicting beliefs should not be dismissed as "crazy" or "undeducated" simply because they do not match up with what you were taught.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_lincoln_colonization

McLEAN, Va. – Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address has inspired Americans for generations, but consider his jarring remarks in 1862 to a White House audience of free blacks, urging them to leave the U.S. and settle in Central America.

"For the sake of your race, you should sacrifice something of your present comfort for the purpose of being as grand in that respect as the white people," Lincoln said, promoting his idea of colonization: resettling blacks in foreign countries on the belief that whites and blacks could not coexist in the same nation.

Lincoln went on to say that free blacks who envisioned a permanent life in the United States were being "selfish" and he promoted Central America as an ideal location "especially because of the similarity of climate with your native land — thus being suited to your physical condition."

As the nation celebrates the 150th anniversary of Lincoln's first inauguration Friday, a new book by a researcher at George Mason University in Fairfax makes the case that Lincoln was even more committed to colonizing blacks than previously known. The book, "Colonization After Emancipation," is based in part on newly uncovered documents that authors Philip Magness and Sebastian Page found at the British NationalArchives outside London and in the U.S. National Archives.

In an interview, Magness said he thinks the documents he uncovered reveal Lincoln's complexity.

"It makes his life more interesting, his racial legacy more controversial," said Magness, who is also an adjuct professor at American University.

Lincoln's views about colonization are well known among historians, even if they don't make it into most schoolbooks. Lincoln even referred to colonization in the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation, his September 1862 warning to the South that he would free all slaves in Southern territory if the rebellion continued. Unlike some others, Lincoln always promoted a voluntary colonization, rather than forcing blacks to leave.

But historians differ on whether Lincoln moved away from colonization after he issued the official Emancipation Proclamation on Jan. 1, 1863, or whether he continued to support it.

Magness and Page's book offers evidence that Lincoln continued to support colonization, engaging in secret diplomacy with the British to establish a colony in British Honduras, now Belize.

Among the records found at the British archives is an 1863 order from Lincoln granting a British agent permission to recruit volunteers for a Belize colony.

"He didn't let colonization die off. He became very active in promoting it in the private sphere, through diplomatic channels," Magness said. He surmises that Lincoln grew weary of the controversy that surrounded colonization efforts, which had become enmeshed in scandal and were criticized by many abolitionists.

As late as 1864, Magness found a notation that Lincoln asked the attorney general whether he could continue to receive counsel from James Mitchell, his colonization commissioner, even after Congress had eliminated funding for Mitchell's office.

Illinois' state historian, Tom Schwartz, who is also a research director at the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library in Springfield, Ill., said that while historians differ, there is ample evidence that Lincoln's views evolved away from colonization in the final two years of the Civil War.

Lincoln gave several speeches referring to the rights blacks had earned as they enlisted in the Union Army, for instance. And presidential secretary John Hay wrote in July 1864 that Lincoln had "sloughed off" colonization.

"Most of the evidence points to the idea that Lincoln is looking at other ways" to resolve the transition from slavery besides colonization at the end of his presidency, Schwartz said.

Lincoln is the not the only president whose views on race relations and slavery were more complex and less idealistic than children's storybook histories suggest. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were both slaveholders despite misgivings. Washington freed his slaves when he died.

"Washington, because he wanted to keep the union, knew he had to ignore the slavery problem because it would have torn the country apart, said James Rees, director of Washington's Mount Vernon estate.

"It's tempting to wish he had tried. The nation had more chance of dealing with slavery with Washington than with anyone else," Rees said, noting the esteem in which Washington was held in both the North and the South.

Magness said views on Lincoln can be strongly held and often divergent. He noted that people have sought to use Lincoln's legacy to support all manner of political policy agendas since the day he was assassinated. And nobody can claim definitive knowledge of Lincoln's own views, especially on a topic as complex as race relations.

"He never had a chance to complete his vision. Lincoln's racial views were evolving at the time of his death," Magness said.

I remember that song being discussed here a while ago, and it basically caused an avalanche.

2elijah said:

I remember that song being discussed here a while ago, and it basically caused an avalanche.

It did, didn't it? I figured some open-minded people would be interested in reading this though, then listen to Avalanche again.

BlackandRising said:

2elijah said:

I remember that song being discussed here a while ago, and it basically caused an avalanche.

It did, didn't it? I figured some open-minded people would be interested in reading this though, then listen to Avalanche again.

Here's a couple of threads where discussions on "Avalanche" took place:

http://prince.org/msg/7/3...?&pg=6

http://prince.org/msg/7/3...?&pg=2

http://prince.org/msg/105/142719

There's also a discussion going on in the Politics & Religion forum here, about that same article from Yahoo, regarding the book coming out on Lincoln. Here's the link:

http://prince.org/msg/105/354190?pg=1

[Edited 3/6/11 15:01pm]

<--grabs popcorn

Most people probably don't know or don't want to admit it but Lincoln was a racist. I guess this is why many people seem to hate this song.

802 said:

Most people probably don't know or don't want to admit it but Lincoln was a racist. I guess this is why many people seem to hate this song.

Racist for this time period or for Lincoln's time period?

Racism is bad any period, but it needs to be put into context.

2elijah said:

I remember that song being discussed here a while ago, and it basically caused an avalanche.

ya, anytime this type of topic comes up in any situation in america there will be fireworks. White people are not accustomed to being on the recieving end of vilification and or outright abuse. as Paul Mooney once said, "they kill me with their sensitivity". Us Indians, blacks, asians or whatever darker persuasion you may be, well, we see things much differently. We hear stories from our older folks, we see things done even in our lifetimes and just wonder "what is wrong with white people" and it feels warranted to talk shit about them. I think the logic is, all the destructive things done, physically, psychologically and spiritually to leave some of us in tatters to this very day and to leave us walking on eggshells between two worlds, well, we feel it's ok to talk a little shit.

xlr8r said:

<--grabs popcorn

I get nervous when this song comes up. I think you and I both have very long org memories.

errant said:

xlr8r said:

<--grabs popcorn

I get nervous when this song comes up. I think you and I both have very long org memories.

Well, keep on getting nervous errant. Truth must be told, regardless of who it angers. I am a White male and I was educated in African American history by Dr. Cornel West of Princeton University, so my knowledge of African American history goes deep. Under the system of racism and white supremacy, A.A's has suffered all around the world, particularly here in America. This is why I believe that A.A's are God's true chosen people. No other groups has suffered so much and yet still remains to be so strong.

jason7sh said:

errant said:

I get nervous when this song comes up. I think you and I both have very long org memories.

Well, keep on getting nervous errant. Truth must be told, regardless of who it angers. I am a White male and I was educated in African American history by Dr. Cornel West of Princeton University, so my knowledge of African American history goes deep. Under the system of racism and white supremacy, A.A's has suffered all around the world, particularly here in America. This is why I believe that A.A's are God's true chosen people. No other groups has suffered so much and yet still remains to be so strong.

Oh jeeeeez, here come the angry Jews...

jason7sh said:

errant said:

I get nervous when this song comes up. I think you and I both have very long org memories.

Well, keep on getting nervous errant. Truth must be told, regardless of who it angers. I am a White male and I was educated in African American history by Dr. Cornel West of Princeton University, so my knowledge of African American history goes deep. Under the system of racism and white supremacy, A.A's has suffered all around the world, particularly here in America. This is why I believe that A.A's are God's true chosen people. No other groups has suffered so much and yet still remains to be so strong.

Whiiiiiite guuuuuiiiilllllttttttttt

Spinlight said:

jason7sh said:

Well, keep on getting nervous errant. Truth must be told, regardless of who it angers. I am a White male and I was educated in African American history by Dr. Cornel West of Princeton University, so my knowledge of African American history goes deep. Under the system of racism and white supremacy, A.A's has suffered all around the world, particularly here in America. This is why I believe that A.A's are God's true chosen people. No other groups has suffered so much and yet still remains to be so strong.

Whiiiiiite guuuuuiiiilllllttttttttt

You Damn right !!! Call it what you please. My ancestors owned slaves and some of them done a lot to impede the growth and development of Africans here in America. It's time to correct the wrongs of all that has been done.

[Edited 3/6/11 3:31am]

^ 1) Michael Jackson loooked sooo goood back then. Shame what happened to his look later, Bad and onwards,

2) Forgive, but as a dane I could not care less about lincoln and racism.

3) About Avalanche, the song...: never liked this song, or the ONA Piano album.

Boring....

[Edited 3/6/11 5:00am]

jason7sh said:

errant said:

I get nervous when this song comes up. I think you and I both have very long org memories.

Well, keep on getting nervous errant. Truth must be told, regardless of who it angers. I am a White male and I was educated in African American history by Dr. Cornel West of Princeton University, so my knowledge of African American history goes deep. Under the system of racism and white supremacy, A.A's has suffered all around the world, particularly here in America. This is why I believe that A.A's are God's true chosen people. No other groups has suffered so much and yet still remains to be so strong.

oh fuck off. it has nothing to do with this. it was a joke about the org. get a god damn grip. and a life.

802 said:

Most people probably don't know or don't want to admit it but Lincoln was a racist. I guess this is why many people seem to hate this song.

Well, it's an uncomfortable truth, which is not always easy for some to acknowledge. Given the times back then and much of the mentality of those that existed during those times. He did in fact have racist beliefs, because there would have never been any reason, for his beliefs in slavery/colonizing Blacks to start "evolving" near the time of his death, had he not held those racist beliefs about it in the first place.

[Edited 3/6/11 8:48am]

Slavery has been a terrible thing throughout history, not just beginning with African Americans... it has been around a very long time. Egyptians were not white. Slavery is still the worst thing that could have ever taken place in this world... not just this country.

Illuminations said:

Slavery has been a terrible thing throughout history, not just beginning with African Americans....

True, but I don't believe anyone said it was. The line regarding "..Lincoln was a racist..." in the song Avalanche, "solely" references a time period when Lincoln was President, and his role and beliefs regarding African/African-American slavery in this country. Lincoln did not believe that Africans/African-American (whether enslaved or free) were "equal" as human beings to Whites or that they should live "free" among White people. An uncomfortable truth for some, but Prince apparently only mentioned in that song, what was an uncomfortable "truth" about Lincoln.

[Edited 3/6/11 12:30pm]

Illuminations said:

Egyptians were not white.

Who said they were?

NouveauDance said:

Illuminations said:

Egyptians were not white.

Who said they were?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056937/

BlackandRising said:

NouveauDance said:

Who said they were?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056937/

Oh sweetie, you silly billy.

Do you know how long Egyptian history is? There's literally more time between Cleopatra and the builders of the Giza pyramids (who also weren't black), than there is between US now and Cleopatra - Egyptian history goes back THOUSANDS of years, spanx dozens of dynasties of varies races (yes even one of them WAS black). Cleopatra was around just a few decades before when we count from 1AD - She died about 30BC.

See, Alexander the Great (a Macadonian, GREEK) conquered Egypt, after his death the Ptolemy dynasty began with his general Ptolemy I, who Cleopatra was descended from. Cleopatra was GREEK.

So whilst Liz Taylor's blue eyes might not give the best representation of the real Cleopatra, it's a damn sight more realistic than Whoopi Goldberg.

You should read up on Egyptian history, it's fucking awesome and such a huge subject, you're bound to find something you like - check out the Nubian rulers of the 25th dynasty - REAL black pharoahs of Egypt

NouveauDance said:

BlackandRising said:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056937/

Oh sweetie, you silly billy.

Do you know how long Egyptian history is? There's literally more time between Cleopatra and the builders of the Giza pyramids (who also weren't black), than there is between US now and Cleopatra - Egyptian history goes back THOUSANDS of years, spanx dozens of dynasties of varies races (yes even one of them WAS black). Cleopatra was around just a few decades before when we count from 1AD - She died about 30BC.

See, Alexander the Great (a Macadonian, GREEK) conquered Egypt, after his death the Ptolemy dynasty began with his general Ptolemy I, who Cleopatra was descended from. Cleopatra was GREEK.

So whilst Liz Taylor's blue eyes might not give the best representation of the real Cleopatra, it's a damn sight more realistic than Whoopi Goldberg.

You should read up on Egyptian history, it's fucking awesome and such a huge subject, you're bound to find something you like - check out the Nubian rulers of the 25th dynasty - REAL black pharoahs of Egypt

lol thanks sweetie, but my point was it's not what the history books say, it's what people believe, and this movie went a long way to convincing people that Ancient Egyptians were indeed white. So yes, you are correct when you mention the time between Cleopatra and the building if the Giza Pyramids, but that isn't the answer you'd get if you polled 100 people on the subject.

I agree with everything you say, but again, my point was simply that a movie is more powerful than all the textbooks in the world with regard to people believing this or that.

jason7sh said:

Spinlight said:

Whiiiiiite guuuuuiiiilllllttttttttt

You Damn right !!! Call it what you please. My ancestors owned slaves and some of them done a lot to impede the growth and development of Africans here in America. It's time to correct the wrongs of all that has been done.

That's sad.

BlackandRising said:

lol thanks sweetie, but my point was it's not what the history books say, it's what people believe, and this movie went a long way to convincing people that Ancient Egyptians were indeed white. So yes, you are correct when you mention the time between Cleopatra and the building if the Giza Pyramids, but that isn't the answer you'd get if you polled 100 people on the subject.

I agree with everything you say, but again, my point was simply that a movie is more powerful than all the textbooks in the world with regard to people believing this or that.

Fair enough, well a lot of people if you held a similar poll would profess to believing Hebrew slaves built the pyramids!! There's no end to what people believe now is there!

Yeah, I realize that my post had nothing to do with the subject or song... I was just pointing out that slavery is wrong no matter what. I posted in the wrong place, I know. I wasn't trying to cause a fight with anyone... just saying that it has been around a long, long time. A lot of people behave like it just started with white people in the U.S. And that is true, when you say "slavery", that is the first thing people think of... how horrible we were for doing so. It is unfortunate that it happened in our country, but is horrible that it happened anywhere, any time on this planet. That's all..... not looking for fights here . If you agree that slavery is wrong, no mater who, what or when... then you're in agreeance with me.

And, I apologize for not sticking to the topic of Prince and his song Avalanche. My bad.

2elijah said:

Illuminations said:

Slavery has been a terrible thing throughout history, not just beginning with African Americans....

True, but I don't believe anyone said it was. The line regarding "..Lincoln was a racist..." in the song Avalanche, "solely" references a time period when Lincoln was President, and his role and beliefs regarding African/African-American slavery in this country. Lincoln did not believe that Africans/African-American (whether enslaved or free) were "equal" as human beings to Whites or that they should live "free" among White people. An uncomfortable truth for some, but Prince apparently only mentioned in that song, what was an uncomfortable "truth" about Lincoln.

[Edited 3/6/11 12:30pm]

Exactly. I can't remember what the name of the docu was, on the History Channel or some such, everything that's expressed in those few verses of the song was the same thing these white historians were saying about Lincoln and the Emancipation Proclamation and that specific time in history. It was strictly a political move on Lincoln's part. Prince wasn't saying anything new to those who dig deeper into anything they are taught regarding that time, regarding this practical deification of Lincoln as this perfect wonderful, non racist president, and who find out the real reasons behind Lincoln's motives.

jason7sh said:

Spinlight said:

Whiiiiiite guuuuuiiiilllllttttttttt

You Damn right !!! Call it what you please. My ancestors owned slaves and some of them done a lot to impede the growth and development of Africans here in America. It's time to correct the wrongs of all that has been done.

I like this guy...............

Spinlight said:

jason7sh said:

You Damn right !!! Call it what you please. My ancestors owned slaves and some of them done a lot to impede the growth and development of Africans here in America. It's time to correct the wrongs of all that has been done.

That's sad.

You know, this "white guilt" attitude is interesting. It's as if you know about one part of history, acknowledge it, but ignore the rest. If slaves had been freed and been granted FULL rights as citizens, and allowed to live in America as full citizens, and we were still where we are today, white guilt might have some logic to it. But, slaves weren't given rights. And black people were 2nd class citizens all the way up into the 60's and into the 70's in some places. Hell, I'm 42 and I still hear stories from my father and grandparents about where they could not go, where they could not eat, what they could not buy (land, housing), what schools they could not go to, etc., etc., etc. All the things that makes you prosperous in America, blacks were excluded from all the way up into some of our lifetimes.

BlackandRising said:

Spinlight said:

That's sad.

You know, this "white guilt" attitude is interesting. It's as if you know about one part of history, acknowledge it, but ignore the rest. If slaves had been freed and been granted FULL rights as citizens, and allowed to live in America as full citizens, and we were still where we are today, white guilt might have some logic to it. But, slaves weren't given rights. And black people were 2nd class citizens all the way up into the 60's and into the 70's in some places. Hell, I'm 42 and I still hear stories from my father and grandparents about where they could not go, where they could not eat, what they could not buy (land, housing), what schools they could not go to, etc., etc., etc. All the things that makes you prosperous in America, blacks were excluded from all the way up into some of our lifetimes.

That's because the jim crow era only ended about 56 years ago, so yes, it's not surprising that there are still Blacks living today, that lived through the pre-civil rights era and were denied full rights as citizens, i.e. not allowed to use the front door of public/private buildings, refused employment based on their race/ethnicity, etc.

Sometimes I wonder some of the things my parents went through, and some racial discrimination I know they experienced throughout their lives, when I overheard their talks as a child, once they moved to the states officially. So yeah, racial discrimination continued on, way past the days of slavery in America. Of course no one today should be feeling "guilt" but instead "acknowledgement" of the wrongs of the past, and not embrace/practice that type of behavior today, which those actions were more or less done on the basis of hatred, ignorance and disrespect.

No one alive today was there during the days of slavery, but of course, there are some alive today, although in their elder stages of their lives that did however, participate in racist crimes during the days of Jim Crow/segregation/black codes, etc., in this country, but never paid the price for their racist actions. I do think, however, in present day, there's room for re-education, with no excuses, in regards to people making a personal effort to learn the facts/truths, about those they see different from them on the basis of history, culture, ethnicity or religion, and not specifically based on the color of an individual's skin color.

Lincoln apparently had an ignorant view of people that came from the same human species as he did, yet actually believe they were from a different species. Lack of education/knowledge of specific groups are often the reason for that type of ignorance and hatred.

[Edited 3/7/11 10:42am]