Well trip on this..several women felt as you do because the perosn they were admiring was not singing to them so to speak. Prince could be called on having all kinds of woemn in his movies, music, vids etc but no black wommen ..they were all Neneh Cherry look-a-likes or half hispanic etc..yeah he had Vanity and Susan etc but still..Prince has always had a way of alienating "someone" somehow etc even in his free for all stance..at this juncture he is more steadfast and specific in his beliefs and ambuguity is thrown out the wiondow and I realize it is sort of a wake up call for different parts of his fans and the public. But I really do not think he would discriminate etc against hiw white,black,gay etc fans in the long run. I stated months ago that that Uptown is no longer what it once was...

rdhull said:

Are you offering both at the same time? :p

I can accept that the military music in Chaos And Disorder refers to the U.S. Army's "don't ask, don't tell" policy but why did he make reference to it in the first place? What was he trying to say?

If you look at the lyrics - they are similar in style to 'Sign O The Times' where he is listing a bunch of societal ills as examples of what has turned the world 'chaotic and disorderly'. The fact a gay man is not considered welcome in the armed forces is an example. In the early 19th century, 'gay' was a common expression of happiness. Whether that meaning changed in the 60's or not is beside the point. He is drawing a positive/negative poetic comparison between happy and unhappy.

I can also accept that the "turn a gay" line in Peach is sort of funny, but not when its followed up with the "preacher to a sinner" line.

Again I think you're misinterpreting the meaning: the expression "turn a (straight) preacher to a sinner" is a commmon one; meaning that the woman is so hot that a clergyman would break his vows to be with her. What Prince is saying is that this 'peach' is so hot she could even make a homosexual preacher break his vows to be with her. He is not, as you've implied, equating homosexuality with sin.

I am not strenuously politically correct - its just that I held Prince as being an icon during my teenage years for his image as well as the music.

I never thought of him as being gay, but what I liked about him was his stance of ambiguity. The "so what" attitude towards people thinking that he may not be completely straight.

The nearest comparison I can think of is David Bowie. Its not a direct comparison because he has publically admitted his bisexuality in the past. In fact, it isn't a good comparison because if Bowie had sung those lyrics it would have meant something different as he had already laid his cards on the table. Prince's sexual identity was always transient in the past but he seems to have distanced himself from this stance in later years. I know that him saying "I'm straight" in The Truth has a double-meaning but I found it very alienating to hear him sing things like that.

Anybody here whom says its all about the music is lying. If it was all about the music, there wouldn't be endless topics in this forum about his personal relationships, his fashion sense etcetera...

We have all projected some part of our psyche onto him at some point or another, whether consciously or subconsciously. Unfortunately, the small sliver of his personality which let me identify with our rampantly heterosexual icon as being like me, disappeared a long time ago.

Having responded as such above - I do think it is correct that his stance on these issues may be different now that they have been subverted by the JW teachings. I don't think he felt that way when these two songs were written, but the evidence that Morris Hayes parted ways with Prince because of 'lifestyle' disagreements and that a possible reunion with Wendy & Lisa was aborted because of the same issues indicates that he may not be as accepting as he was in the past.

However, he did invite Ani Defrano to work with him in 1999.

I'm not usually this morose. I've just never verbalised this feeling before and I'm sorry if I've come across as joyless or unfunny. Doesn't anybody know what I mean?

Thats ironic, because the only thing wrong with religion is the (sometimes) lack of tolerance for other peoples beliefs, and respecting others peoples choices. Being gay, you should understand that, and not let the way someone else chooses to lead their life influence what you think of them, or what they are trying to say.

Homophobia, racism and xenophobia are contagious social diseases. Don't you find it odd that most wars are fought in the name of God? If I had the chance, I'd convert every church, synagogue, temple and mosque into Bingo Halls. It'd definitely make people a LOT happier.

Thats ironic, because the only thing wrong with religion is the (sometimes) lack of tolerance for other peoples beliefs, and respecting others peoples choices. Being gay, you should understand that, and not let the way someone else chooses to lead their life influence what you think of them, or what they are trying to say.

G 28..G 28...B 19...B 19

rdhull said:

amen, brother hull!

G 28..G 28...B 19...B 19

Yeah, I can understand dark-skinned Afro-American women being dismayed by his choice in women. They all seem to be International Beige coloured with straightened hair. I think the last woman with a strong black image he lusted after was possibly Patrice Rushen.

rdhull said:

You've just won a toaster-oven.

BinaryJustin said:

Jesus Christ, what on earth has Prince's taste in women got to do with anything? .

here's some more .."lady cab driver" should have been "person cab driver" ..."let's pretend we're married" is obviously mocking gay ppl because i believe at the time it was written...there were no gay marriages...so all they could do was pretend... "cream" ...the term shaboogey bop ...is latin for "i hate queers" ...... "pussy control" implies that the only thing that can have power over a man is a vagina ...an obvious slur..."darling nikki" ...should have been "darling ted"
there are countless other examples of prince's attemps to upset the gay community...can anyone think of any more? ..

ian said:

Nothing..it was just a juxtaposed example to make a point of similarity

The great thing about TRC is the conflicting opinions... some people here say it is shit... for me it's one of my favourite albums, easily in my top 3 Prince albums. Usually when a piece of work produces such widely varied opinions, it is worth checking out

Denying yourself an album as great as TRC because you may or may not agree with Prince's religious beliefs is peculiar... surely you are secure enough in your own beliefs that you don't need to feel threatened by Prince's?

There were two songs where I found the lyrics mildly offensive:

01) Peach

The lady in question is so gorgeous that she could "turn a gay"... If that isn't stupid enough, he follows it up with "preacher to a sinner". My heart sank when I heard that line.

02) Chaos And Disorder

"He's gay, used to mean he's happy". Well two points here:
"Gay" had been used to define a non-heterosexual orientation for decades - he used the word himself back in 1980. The definition of "gay" was pretty widespread by the late 60s. Its a stupid inconsiderate line - why even sing it...

Denying yourself an album as great as TRC because you may or may not agree with Prince's religious beliefs is peculiar... surely you are secure enough in your own beliefs that you don't need to feel threatened by Prince's?

The difference is that you CHOOSE to become religious. Nobody is born Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Sikh or Hindu. It has to be learnt. You do NOT choose to be born gay in the same way you do not choose to be born black, white, yellow, brown or red.

Don't you find it odd that most wars are fought in the name of God?

BinaryJustin said:

Not gay myself but perhaps my interpretation of these 2 songs may make you think again about their offensiveness.

Chaos and Disorder

To me this line was commentary by Prince on just how homophobic our society still is. He sings "he's gay used to mean he's happy nowadays happy ain't allowed". If happiness used to mean gay and happiness is no longer allowed then it means being gay isn't allowed. This is part of the "chaos & disorder" in Prince's world. In a non-chaotic, orderly world there would be no homophobia.

Peach

Are you sure you're hearing the lyrics right? I always thought this line was "turn a 'A' preacher to a sinner". I never heard it as gay. But then again I fucked up the lyrics to Let's Go Crazy on another thread so maybe you are right. Still, food for thought...or am I just being stupid?

So you have no tolerance for what other people believe, only for what they are born into, and anything that they learn along the way is unacceptable in your view. Was you born with this view, or did you learn it?

I'm sort of new around here - I hope nobody thinks I'm a trouble causer. Haven't you all had a conversation about this before???

Its not that I feel threatened by Prince's beliefs - just a little dismayed.

Anything that anybody "learns" after birth was never truly worth knowing anyway.

I'm going to sleep now because I'm getting all cosmic or something.

Good night. x

Fair enough... I dunno, I just figured that Prince is 45 this year and he is old enough and ugly enough to make his own decisions I don't care what Prince believes in really, I rarely find myself agreeing with him and I doubt we'd be able to have a conversation without killing each other. I just enjoy the music, and there's enough good stuff in there to keep me interested.

You can take a dick but you can't take a joke/lyric?