Spinlight said:

Maybe. I always took it to be that he saw he was OWING money by not being a hit under his new contract and that sort of looking like funny money, which it does (and probly is). Since the advance for the next album was predicated on the success of the previous album, you can see how disappointed and infuriated he would've been to sign a new contract and reneg on the benefits immediately.

It might have been disappointing but could he really have been surprised? He willingly signed that contract, knowing what was in it and then almost immediately began derailing his own best interests by arguing with WB over single choices, trying to release other material when he already had a brand new album to promote, etc... then turned around and blamed WB for the lack of sales performance. This is nothing new, of course, and he continued the blame game even well after leaving WB (see Rave and Clive Owen and those hilariously immature remarks on his website of the time).

wonder505 said:

like I said, not the best businessman, but its what's important to him, as the one creating the work. He ain't hurting regardless of failures and decisions that don't make sense even if he could make more.

He never cared about any of that until he failed to get advances off the back of "poor" selling albums... it was always about the money more than anything else. If WB had been willing to continually give him those advances, whether he'd earned them or not, he'd probably still be there.

That's his preferred method of making money today! Rather than working for it, he just wants the money upfront (which is why he's been doing deals with newspapers, Target, etc... and the reason he said he won't put his music on iTunes - because they won't give him an advance).

jtfolden said:

HonestMan13 said:

So in other words Princes 'fan speculated greatness' could have exceeded his 'actual greatness'. He also could've burned out and became a junkie by the time gold Experience came out. If we're dealing in fantasy scenarios then anything positive or negative is possible. Warner Brothers could've destroyed his career just as easily as those who say that they would've saved it.

What hilarious hyperbole. Again, what you state doesn't negate the fact that he could have done better. Whatever you think of his standing now, a great majority of his business/marketing decisions post-WB have been fraught with mistakes (particularly in the 90's) and failures.

Furthermore, to the idea that he "doesn't own his work"... and that going independent somehow helped that situation - there were always other alternatives on the table in regard to that. He kept the masters for TGE and yet it was still released via WB. He could have no doubt negotiated similar deals for future albums. As for past releases, he willingly signed those contracts. It was only when he had to actually work for his advances that he started whining about it.

I'm not denying you your opinion. I choose to base my answer to the OP question on what has happened since Prince left Warners as opposed to what could've happened if he didn't.

jtfolden said:

Spinlight said:

Maybe. I always took it to be that he saw he was OWING money by not being a hit under his new contract and that sort of looking like funny money, which it does (and probly is). Since the advance for the next album was predicated on the success of the previous album, you can see how disappointed and infuriated he would've been to sign a new contract and reneg on the benefits immediately.

It might have been disappointing but could he really have been surprised? He willingly signed that contract, knowing what was in it and then almost immediately began derailing his own best interests by arguing with WB over single choices, trying to release other material when he already had a brand new album to promote, etc... then turned around and blamed WB for the lack of sales performance. This is nothing new, of course, and he continued the blame game even well after leaving WB (see Rave and Clive Owen and those hilariously immature remarks on his website of the time).

Prince has always believed that contracts were only as good as long as everyone still agreed to them, regardless of who signed it. I definitely believe he bought his own hype after the huge success of D&P and he thought he could write hits for himself and his associated acts on his record label and it would satisfy his work ethic and that when failed it was a huge blow to his ego (to which he quickly blamed on the label to avoid any responsibility for its fall).

And I think you mean Clive Davis! Clive Owen is the actor!

Spinlight said:

And I think you mean Clive Davis! Clive Owen is the actor!

OMG, I can't believe I typed that as I certainly know the difference. Clive Owen is frequently on my mind....

Clive Davis... not so much.

Astasheiks said:

Putting it bluntly, "Did Prince F himself when he left Warner Bros."

Because he when he left Warner Bros. he got Black Balled from Radio and he's had only a few hits played nationally on the Radio.

Hence hes confined to his 80's hits in concerts (Greatest Hits Concert).

Yea or Nea?

Nea.

BUT he did screw us over.

He hasn't brought our anything decent since!

I just love the imagery of "mess over himself"

Self determination.................what do u think?

Astasheiks said:

Putting it bluntly, "Did Prince F himself when he left Warner Bros."

Because he when he left Warner Bros. he got Black Balled from Radio and he's had only a few hits played nationally on the Radio.

Hence hes confined to his 80's hits in concerts (Greatest Hits Concert).

Yea or Nea?

Nea. He got what he wanted and needed at that point in his career, the total control over what he does, when, and why. If he was still attached to the need to be that Purple Rain era pop-deity figure, he'd never risk doing what he did. Everything we've seen and heard from him post-1994 says he's happy. Seems like he's making much more money moving less product as a free agent, but some really solid work gets lost in the shuffle I think because there isn't someone overseeing that aspect 24/7.

The other major case I can remember was that of George Michael who sued Sony after his 2nd solo album (mid 90's but after P, I think) and never regained any lasting momentum. You might say HE F'd himself, considering all the negative news he's made since the lawsuit. But actually he was pretty clear about not wanting to be the 'diva' of Faith any more.

Personally, I respect them both infinitely more for doing what they did.

Astasheiks said:

Putting it bluntly, "Did Prince F himself when he left Warner Bros."

Because he when he left Warner Bros. he got Black Balled from Radio and he's had only a few hits played nationally on the Radio.

Hence hes confined to his 80's hits in concerts (Greatest Hits Concert).

Yea or Nea?

Radio stations still play his 80s material, so that still keeps his image alive, regardless if many radio stations don't play his current material. Fact is, he's already a legend in his own right regardless of what went down with him and WB in the past. He seems to be doing just fine, without being signed to a label, or having much of his current material played on the radio. The fact that he still has a strong international fan base, and even outside of his diehard fans, is a well-respected musician/artist in the industry. Like orger "Graycap23" said, it was/is Prince's self-determination that kept him going this long. Imagine if after he left WB, that he solely depended on radio to promote his music without taking the measures and roads he's taken over the years, to pretty much self-promote his music using various motives to do so. Also, like "Honestman13" said, he could still sell out arenas, without being signed to a label or having his later/current material played on the radio, as well as, not releasing a current album while doing so. Self-detemination goes a long way if you know how to use it.

[Edited 1/7/11 7:35am]

Spinlight said:

jtfolden said:

It might have been disappointing but could he really have been surprised? He willingly signed that contract, knowing what was in it and then almost immediately began derailing his own best interests by arguing with WB over single choices, trying to release other material when he already had a brand new album to promote, etc... then turned around and blamed WB for the lack of sales performance. This is nothing new, of course, and he continued the blame game even well after leaving WB (see Rave and Clive Owen and those hilariously immature remarks on his website of the time).

Prince has always believed that contracts were only as good as long as everyone still agreed to them, regardless of who signed it. I definitely believe he bought his own hype after the huge success of D&P and he thought he could write hits for himself and his associated acts on his record label and it would satisfy his work ethic and that when failed it was a huge blow to his ego (to which he quickly blamed on the label to avoid any responsibility for its fall).

And I think you mean Clive Davis! Clive Owen is the actor!

I think the lack of associated acts is a really underrated point.

I've always thought that without having The Time and V6/A6, Purple Rain wouldn't have been the 'consistent, focused masterwork' that critics call it. His sound is too diverse for us on the Org to agree on, and definitely is for the mass music listening public. Personally, I like it there. Problem is, like most of us, his greatest strength is right next to his greatest weakness. The situation under WB around the time of couldn't accomodate all the things and 'all the artists' P wanted to be. So it resulted in frustration on both sides of that divide and a battle that couldn't be won by either.

The record company has its model for maxing out the $ they can squeeze from the talent under their control. P was always the mustang in the mix who they wanted to behave like MJ, not be so ...pushy and productive all the time. Associated acts provided the buffer that helped them both. If he could've just gotten a sound infrastructure for Paisley/NPG/ whatever, AND got his masters, they might have forged a new model that worked.

Oh, and I would say he was justified in believing in his ability after D&P. He's made albums just as good or better since then

ufoclub said:

Genesia said:

This.

but he does have less pop cultural power.

[img:$uid]http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/39.gif[/img:$uid] ... True ... Then again how many 50yr olds that are still making music have 'stroke' in the pop music industry. New School Hip Hop can be considered to be 'pop music' now.

Well, he did Come at some point, yes

Cx

Prince has shot himself in the foot so many times that's is almost comedic

but his whole affair with Warners (1992-1996) was, by far, the worst/most harmful chapter...

In some ways, it's a miracle that he still has a successful (sort of) career...

Rebeljuice said:

forgetting the commercial aspect of his music, in my opinion his output deteriorated after TGE. whether that was because of his new found "freedom" and the removal of external pressure to produce quality, or just a coincidence i dont know. perhaps his mojo had burned out by then and the quality would have been less inspired either way. one thing is for sure, WB and prince failed in the end. and prince has failed ever since in my view. i blame the commercialisation of RnB and hip hop and prince's desire to follow it rather than lead the way. I dont think WB would have prevented that. if prince was on the bones of his arse and lost all his money, would he be able to pull his genius out of the bag again? maybe. i have always felt his music was best when he was under pressure or struggling with things in life (and his penis was akin to god).

Excellent post

JoeTyler said:

Prince has shot himself in the foot so many times that's is almost comedic

but his whole affair with Warners (1992-1996) was, by far, the worst/most harmful chapter...

In some ways, it's a miracle that he still has a successful (sort of) career...

It may have done more harm then good but, cat is not missin' out on any $ or havin' his living expenses being exhausted. It is as it presents itself. We can talk about it all day, won't change a thing, right ...

PurpleLove7 said:

JoeTyler said:

Prince has shot himself in the foot so many times that's is almost comedic

but his whole affair with Warners (1992-1996) was, by far, the worst/most harmful chapter...

In some ways, it's a miracle that he still has a successful (sort of) career...

It may have done more harm then good but, cat is not missin' out on any $ or havin' his living expenses being exhausted. It is as it presents itself. We can talk about it all day, won't change a thing, right ...

right, but somehow I think Prince could have been much more successful and his music stronger if he had stayed with Warners during the late-90s/early-00s. Call it pressure, call it huge promotion, but that's what I think. He even released an album like Rave, which sounded and felt LIKE A Warners album, but Arista's promotional campaign sucked (as well all know) so the album flopped (they already had Supernatural so they didn't give a damn about Rave). I can even imagine Warners releasing The Work.Pt1 as a single with a huge promotional campaign and a videoclip...

But who knows, the whole 99-03 period was so FULL of personal problems/tragedies, midlife crisis, spiritual rebirths and other crazy shit that he would have left Warners anyway, probably in 2001. Probably...

[Edited 1/11/11 14:52pm]

JoeTyler said:

PurpleLove7 said:

It may have done more harm then good but, cat is not missin' out on any $ or havin' his living expenses being exhausted. It is as it presents itself. We can talk about it all day, won't change a thing, right ...

right, but somehow I think Prince could have been much more successful and his music stronger if he had stayed with Warners during the late-90s/early-00s. Call it pressure, call it huge promotion, but that's what I think. He even released an album like Rave, which sounded and felt LIKE A Warners album, but Arista's promotional campaign sucked (as well all know) so the album flopped (they already had Supernatural so they didn't give a damn about Rave). I can even imagine Warners releasing The Work.Pt1 as a single with a huge promotional campaign and a videoclip...

But who knows, the whole 99-03 period was so FULL of personal problems / tragedies, midlife crisis, spiritual rebirths and other crazy shit that he would have left Warners anyway, probably in 2001. Probably...

True ... Look where Madonna's career went (and took her) she left WB not too long ago and she's done pretty well for herself too.

PurpleLove7 said:

JoeTyler said:

right, but somehow I think Prince could have been much more successful and his music stronger if he had stayed with Warners during the late-90s/early-00s. Call it pressure, call it huge promotion, but that's what I think. He even released an album like Rave, which sounded and felt LIKE A Warners album, but Arista's promotional campaign sucked (as well all know) so the album flopped (they already had Supernatural so they didn't give a damn about Rave). I can even imagine Warners releasing The Work.Pt1 as a single with a huge promotional campaign and a videoclip...

But who knows, the whole 99-03 period was so FULL of personal problems / tragedies, midlife crisis, spiritual rebirths and other crazy shit that he would have left Warners anyway, probably in 2001. Probably...

True ... Look where Madonna's career went (and took her) she left WB not too long ago and she's done pretty well for herself too.

well, to be fair, she hasn't actually done anything yet since leaving Warners. and rumor has it that WB will be tapped by Live Nation to distribute and promote her first album with them.

Yes, he well and truly shafted himself. And nothing to do with money, or owning/not owning his back catalogue. Simply because he no longer seems to have anyone who is honest enough to tell him that his music is sub-standard.