A convoluted question, but... many of you will have heard White Knuckles, by OK Go. It is an unashamedly 'Prince' song. It sounds fresh, mature and authenticly Minneapolitan... how come Prince sound plastic and dated when he makes music that sounds like Prince?

20Ten is an album I enjoyed. I loved spending the time going, "oh, that's Let's Go Crazy... and that bit's Delirious... and that bit's ..." and so on and so forth, but - please tell me if you think I'm wrong - the last time I think Prince made music that appeals to himself, and consequently is authentic and genuine, would have been on The Rainbow Children, Musicology, News and parts of 3121... maybe some of Lotus Flower. Other than that, recently, especially very recently with MPLSound and 20Ten, Prince appears to be floundering in lime... uncertain whether to look forward or look back, falling between two stools and making not wholly satisfactory albums.

What do you think?

I know what you mean about other people doing Prince better than Prince but they don't have the burden of a 30+ plus year career behind them to compare against and go "Well that's not as good as ___"

If someone is using that sound for the first time it should be fresh. Let's see how it would sound 40 odd albums into their careers. I've said it before but really I'm amazed he bothers at all and wouldn't be at all surprised if he announced he was retiring tomorrow. Prince fans are so spoilt with the amount of music he's produced. In the time since Michael Jacksons last full length cd Invincible was released in 2001 Prince has released Rainbow Children, One Nite Alone piano, ONA live box set, Xpectation, C-Note, NEWS, Welcome 2 The Slaughterhouse, The Chocolate Invasion, a bunch of singles through the music club, Musicology, 3121, Planet Earth, Indigo Nights, Lotusflow3r and MPLSound and 20ten. That is 17 discs of music!

I think half the problem is that Prince would never entertain the idea that he would 'appear to be floundering'. His agenda doesn't appear to have any interest whatsoever in critical or popular approval. Finding alternative methods of distribution seems to have been his primary interest in the last 5 to 10 years. The actual content appears virtually irrelevant to him. The idea of doing a tour centred around his latest album has long passed which would at least get the songs out to an audience but they really don't seem to be that important to him.

imo the genuineness of his music is dependent on how genuine he is being when he makes it.

So? On 20TEN, Prince did The Pointer Sisters better than The Pointer Sisters have in decades.

"I think half the problem is that Prince would never entertain the idea that he would 'appear to be floundering'. His agenda doesn't appear to have any interest whatsoever in critical or popular approval. Finding alternative methods of distribution seems to have been his primary interest in the last 5 to 10 years. The actual content appears virtually irrelevant to him. The idea of doing a tour centred around his latest album has long passed which would at least get the songs out to an audience but they really don't seem to be that important to him."

An extremely interesting point, but also a wholly depressing one, don't you think? I agree, to an extent, with your comments about the back catalog... but when you compare the sound of TRC, Slaughterhouse, Chocolate and, in parts, News/Musicology/3121, Prince actually sounded interested/engaged with the music he was recording. A lot of the other stuff is painting by numbers... If he can still make music as engaging as those listed, why doesn't he put more of it out?

You are also right when you say we, as fans, are incredibly spoiled. At times, I know I should just shut-up and go and put Dirty Mind on, or Lovsexy... Controversy, Sign O The Times, Parade, The Family, Madhouse...I know, I know... but then someone like OK GO, Beck, Kids of 88, Josh Homme come along and release a 'Prince' song and you think... ooooooh, I wish the 'real' Prince had released that.

Well I hear a lot of sound-a-likes, I don't hear anyone, on the big stage, taking the baton and running with it much.

Oh, I agree. Not running with the baton. It's more about hearing a song that has that Prince stamped all over it. It's about artists being inspired by Prince, mimicking his style, and sounding much more innovative than he has of late... much more genuinely creative using his style, his sound, his touches and his uniqueness - if you'll excuse the horrific contradiction - and wishing that Prince would actually record like that too.

BoySimon said:

Oh, I agree. Not running with the baton. It's more about hearing a song that has that Prince stamped all over it. It's about artists being inspired by Prince, mimicking his style, and sounding much more innovative than he has of late... much more genuinely creative using his style, his sound, his touches and his uniqueness - if you'll excuse the horrific contradiction - and wishing that Prince would actually record like that too.

Prince isn't into his fans anymore. He makes music for himself and his friends. Sometimes he sells the album to a newspaper or a department store and they sell it. Occasionally, he will go on tour and perform the same show he's been doing for 12 years. (As opposed to the 80s and 90s where he had a new tour, new album, new look, new motivation every year or 2.)

Spinlight said:

BoySimon said:

Oh, I agree. Not running with the baton. It's more about hearing a song that has that Prince stamped all over it. It's about artists being inspired by Prince, mimicking his style, and sounding much more innovative than he has of late... much more genuinely creative using his style, his sound, his touches and his uniqueness - if you'll excuse the horrific contradiction - and wishing that Prince would actually record like that too.

Prince isn't into his fans anymore. He makes music for himself and his friends. Sometimes he sells the album to a newspaper or a department store and they sell it. Occasionally, he will go on tour and perform the same show he's been doing for 12 years. (As opposed to the 80s and 90s where he had a new tour, new album, new look, new motivation every year or 2.)

When has Prince really been "into his fans"? What would be evidence of this? I would argue that he has always made music for himself and his friends and that, if anything, Prince was probably the most "fan friendly" in the late 90's early 2000's. This is back when he had tons of Paisley Park parties and opened up his studios for the celebrations.

BoySimon said:

A convoluted question, but... many of you will have heard White Knuckles, by OK Go. It is an unashamedly 'Prince' song. It sounds fresh, mature and authenticly Minneapolitan... how come Prince sound plastic and dated when he makes music that sounds like Prince?

20Ten is an album I enjoyed. I loved spending the time going, "oh, that's Let's Go Crazy... and that bit's Delirious... and that bit's ..." and so on and so forth, but - please tell me if you think I'm wrong - the last time I think Prince made music that appeals to himself, and consequently is authentic and genuine, would have been on The Rainbow Children, Musicology, News and parts of 3121... maybe some of Lotus Flower. Other than that, recently, especially very recently with MPLSound and 20Ten, Prince appears to be floundering in lime... uncertain whether to look forward or look back, falling between two stools and making not wholly satisfactory albums.

What do you think?

Really? You think "White Knuckles" really sounds like the authentic MPLS Sound? To me, it is has some keyboard and chicken scratch guitar and falsetto. Those three elements do not equal the Minneapolis Sound.

There is a joke with me an my friends that much of OK GO's new album is what white hipsters think Prince sounds like.

[Edited 11/1/10 8:09am]

Really? Can't you hear the vocal reverb-echo effect that's lifted straight from I Would Die For You? It also has a straight up ATWIAD b-side feel to it too. IMHO

BoySimon said:

A convoluted question, but... many of you will have heard White Knuckles, by OK Go. It is an unashamedly 'Prince' song. It sounds fresh, mature and authenticly Minneapolitan... how come Prince sound plastic and dated when he makes music that sounds like Prince?

20Ten is an album I enjoyed. I loved spending the time going, "oh, that's Let's Go Crazy... and that bit's Delirious... and that bit's ..." and so on and so forth, but - please tell me if you think I'm wrong - the last time I think Prince made music that appeals to himself, and consequently is authentic and genuine, would have been on The Rainbow Children, Musicology, News and parts of 3121... maybe some of Lotus Flower. Other than that, recently, especially very recently with MPLSound and 20Ten, Prince appears to be floundering in lime... uncertain whether to look forward or look back, falling between two stools and making not wholly satisfactory albums.

What do you think?

Can any of these people complete an album FULLY sounding like Prince?

What ist is is that people are placing WAy too much emphasis on a SONG....one song by one certain artist that is prince influenced and people quick to jump on the bandwagon talking about how that one persons song sounded better than a multiple of tracks on said artist album. The most you will get will be a 'tribute' album with different various artists who try and emulate Prince on a song; where..if you buy their full length album, the rest does not sound the same.

There is not ANYONE emulating the mpls sound fully and truthfully to this day. RPince does not have to make Prince music, because he IS that music. You couldnt even call it the Mpls sound without Prince....people can bite all they want; but they could not make even comprehend how to make 1999, 20Ten or even Lovesexy.

paisleypark4 said:

BoySimon said:

A convoluted question, but... many of you will have heard White Knuckles, by OK Go. It is an unashamedly 'Prince' song. It sounds fresh, mature and authenticly Minneapolitan... how come Prince sound plastic and dated when he makes music that sounds like Prince?

20Ten is an album I enjoyed. I loved spending the time going, "oh, that's Let's Go Crazy... and that bit's Delirious... and that bit's ..." and so on and so forth, but - please tell me if you think I'm wrong - the last time I think Prince made music that appeals to himself, and consequently is authentic and genuine, would have been on The Rainbow Children, Musicology, News and parts of 3121... maybe some of Lotus Flower. Other than that, recently, especially very recently with MPLSound and 20Ten, Prince appears to be floundering in lime... uncertain whether to look forward or look back, falling between two stools and making not wholly satisfactory albums.

What do you think?

Can any of these people complete an album FULLY sounding like Prince?

What ist is is that people are placing WAy too much emphasis on a SONG....one song by one certain artist that is prince influenced and people quick to jump on the bandwagon talking about how that one persons song sounded better than a multiple of tracks on said artist album. The most you will get will be a 'tribute' album with different various artists who try and emulate Prince on a song; where..if you buy their full length album, the rest does not sound the same.

There is not ANYONE emulating the mpls sound fully and truthfully to this day. RPince does not have to make Prince music, because he IS that music. You couldnt even call it the Mpls sound without Prince....people can bite all they want; but they could not make even comprehend how to make 1999, 20Ten or even Lovesexy.

OK Go's last album is pretty MPLS Sound-y.

fantasticjoy said:

I'm one who feels noone can do Prince sound as good as he can. I think D'angelic came close with Untitled , but to me there is just always something a little generic about their take on his sound.

Midnite Vultures (if memory serves) by Beck is a 'Prince' album. So, yes, an artist can ape Prince for a whole album.

I know it wouldn't be the Minneapolis Sound without Prince... I'm just asking if others are are as frustrated as I am when I hear some people make 'legitimate' (for want of a better word) use of the sound in a fresh and contemporary way, when Prince doesn't seem to be doing so. Furthermore, as I said in the first post here, it appears that Prince's pandering to fans' need for the Linn, etc, is compromising his artistic development. I'd rather hear more TRC or News or Musicology/first few songs off 3121 than that that I'm currently hearing... as much as I enjoy playing spot the influence.

BoySimon said:

Midnite Vultures (if memory serves) by Beck is a 'Prince' album. So, yes, an artist can ape Prince for a whole album.

I know it wouldn't be the Minneapolis Sound without Prince... I'm just asking if others are are as frustrated as I am when I hear some people make 'legitimate' (for want of a better word) use of the sound in a fresh and contemporary way, when Prince doesn't seem to be doing so. Furthermore, as I said in the first post here, it appears that Prince's pandering to fans' need for the Linn, etc, is compromising his artistic development. I'd rather hear more TRC or News or Musicology/first few songs off 3121 than that that I'm currently hearing... as much as I enjoy playing spot the influence.

What you are saying is ... his new use of the Linn is not as great as his original use of it...well it is because he is not actually using the Linn this time...so yes..while it does not have the same effect..imo it sounds better suited with his voice than anyone else.

paisleypark4 said:

BoySimon said:

Midnite Vultures (if memory serves) by Beck is a 'Prince' album. So, yes, an artist can ape Prince for a whole album.

I know it wouldn't be the Minneapolis Sound without Prince... I'm just asking if others are are as frustrated as I am when I hear some people make 'legitimate' (for want of a better word) use of the sound in a fresh and contemporary way, when Prince doesn't seem to be doing so. Furthermore, as I said in the first post here, it appears that Prince's pandering to fans' need for the Linn, etc, is compromising his artistic development. I'd rather hear more TRC or News or Musicology/first few songs off 3121 than that that I'm currently hearing... as much as I enjoy playing spot the influence.

What you are saying is ... his new use of the Linn is not as great as his original use of it...well it is because he is not actually using the Linn this time...so yes..while it does not have the same effect..imo it sounds better suited with his voice than anyone else.

What is he using?

Boy Simon this is a great thread and a fresh theme here on org.

Prince is great artist but he does have a problem

emulating classic Prince sound

without sounding a bit forced

"What you are saying is ... his new use of the Linn is not as great as his original use of it...well it is because he is not actually using the Linn this time...so yes..while it does not have the same effect..imo it sounds better suited with his voice than anyone else."

No. What I'm saying is that Prince's sound has been aped and improved upon by some/many whilst, when Prince goes retro, as he has over the past couple of albums, it sounds forced. I much preferred the sound of TRC, News, Musicology and the first few songs on 3121. I though they sounded authentic.

I just wonder why other artists can hear something fresh in the Minneapolis Sound, that Prince helped create, whilst Prince becomes derivative when employing the sounds he made in the 80s.

BoySimon said:

Really? Can't you hear the vocal reverb-echo effect that's lifted straight from I Would Die For You? It also has a straight up ATWIAD b-side feel to it too. IMHO

The reverb echo is used in a lot of songs...it was not an exclusive to I Would Die 4U. ATWIAD b-sides were not really the original Minneapolis Sound.

"The reverb echo is used in a lot of songs...it was not an exclusive to I Would Die 4U. ATWIAD b-sides were not really the original Minneapolis Sound."

Oh. Well.

No... wait... I could argue that, yes, reverb was and is used on many songs... however, the particular White Knuckles variant sounded like I Would Die For You... hence me mentioning it in comparison. By sounded like it, I don't just mean they both share reverb as a production effect, mean that OK Go have written a lyric melody that sounds like I Would Die For You and exaggerated the link by adding the reverb.

The ATWIAD b-sides could not have been the original Minneapolis sound, as Prince had evolved the sound to the sound that it was in 1985. However, I believe the key word in the previous sentence was 'evolved'. It was still the 'Mineapolis Sound' as it was part of the burgeoning Paisley Empire Prince was constructing.

And, in answering your original question, which I don't think I have addressed: yes, I do think White Knuckles is authentically Minneapolis Sound. I would, however, add as a caveat that I prefixed that description with two other words 'fresh' and 'mature'... i.e. taking the sound and developing it, embellishing and making it sound contemporary.

I love the fact that you and your friends have a joke about the OK Go album sounding like white hipsters believe Prince sounds. To quote Ron Burgundy, "That's hysterical."... and it doesn't smack of elitism or prejudice at all because it's all so full of irony... am I right?

Four days, Skywalker. You are not the fan I was looking for.

a. a sentence to rebut my Minneapolis Sound claims

b. a sentence to justify your irony-laden joke about the people who listen to OK Go

that's all I'm waiting for.

I believe, at this point, it's customary for there to be some sort of spaghetti western whistle, choral noise and tumbleweed...

Come on, Skywalker, do you feel lucky?

(What a clash of cultural references!)

Ummm...there will always be someone who can do the original better than the originator

BoySimon said:

"What you are saying is ... his new use of the Linn is not as great as his original use of it...well it is because he is not actually using the Linn this time...so yes..while it does not have the same effect..imo it sounds better suited with his voice than anyone else."

No. What I'm saying is that Prince's sound has been aped and improved upon by some/many whilst, when Prince goes retro, as he has over the past couple of albums, it sounds forced. I much preferred the sound of TRC, News, Musicology and the first few songs on 3121. I though they sounded authentic.

I just wonder why other artists can hear something fresh in the Minneapolis Sound, that Prince helped create, whilst Prince becomes derivative when employing the sounds he made in the 80s.

Because he's not *there* anymore. It's a state of mind, to be creative, and he isn't in the state of mind to be creative. You will notice he treats albums and tours very business-like these days. Prince was one of the first contemporary artists who claimed that the Music Business was becoming more Business than Music. Prince embodies this.

Newer acts don't have the responsibility, wealth, or changed perspective that Prince has right now. Prince can afford to hire creative collaborators and pay them enough to simply record what he wants them to record. How could you ever produce something authentic that way? You can't.

BoySimon said:

Four days, Skywalker. You are not the fan I was looking for.

Sorry. I am not sure why I didn't follow up on this earlier. I wasn't trying to be rude I promise.

Let me respond to a few things:

The ATWIAD b-sides could not have been the original Minneapolis sound, as Prince had evolved the sound to the sound that it was in 1985. However, I believe the key word in the previous sentence was 'evolved'. It was still the 'Mineapolis Sound' as it was part of the burgeoning Paisley Empire Prince was constructing.

I agree that ATWIAD is an evolution in the Minneapolis sound. Yet, when I think of "She's always in My Hair" I don't equate that with "the Minneapolis Sound". It's still Prince, but its not that classic thing delivered via The Time or from a song like "let's Work".

That said, I don't think that "White Knuckles" sounds like a Prince 1985 era B-Side or outtake. I just don't. I understand the similiarities that you are pointing out, but it still sounds more like Midnight Vultures era Beck to me...which also sounded less like Prince to me than all the critics suggested.

And, in answering your original question, which I don't think I have addressed: yes, I do think White Knuckles is authentically Minneapolis Sound. I would, however, add as a caveat that I prefixed that description with two other words 'fresh' and 'mature'... i.e. taking the sound and developing it, embellishing and making it sound contemporary.

To me, adding the caveat negates your point.

When you say "developing, embellishing, and making it sound contemporary" you are essentially saying "change" or "make different." If you change it, it's not "authentically (the) Minneapolis Sound". Your point becomes almost hypothetical. Perhaps, to say OK Go was inspired by would be more apt.

I love the fact that you and your friends have a joke about the OK Go album sounding like white hipsters believe Prince sounds. To quote Ron Burgundy, "That's hysterical."... and it doesn't smack of elitism or prejudice at all because it's all so full of irony... am I right?

Can't tell if you think it's funny, or are offended. It's this: A lot of my friends hear chicken scratch guitar and a keyboard and think Prince...even if it doesn't really sound like a Prince song at all.

I don't think anything OK Go has done sounds like, say, D.M.S.R. furthermore,

I just don't think that you could drop "White Knuckles" onto Around The World in a Day (or on the b-side to one of it's singles) and it'd fit right in thematically or sonically.

[Edited 11/10/10 12:50pm]

Skywalker: a reasoned response. Agree to disagree, I'm afraid.

Spinlight: Spot on comment. The irony of Prince hiring real musicians and only allowing them to be studio musicians is a terrible shame.

After following and greatly appreciating Prince's creativity and music over the past 30 years we know that he creates music without thinking about what the public or critics think. Some people will like his original version and then there are those who will fans of those who recreate them.

I love the power of Prince live...always have and always will. No one even comes close. I've seen him over 15 times in the past 30 years. Even though I'm in pain the next day I still dance throughout any of his shows.

Think about I Feel For You back in the day. There were those who thought that it was an original song by Chaka Khan. Her version was more geared toward the "sound" that was popular during that time...they added rap to commercialize it.

I happened to be a fan of Sinead O'Connor way before she recorded Nothing Compares To You. However, I enjoyed her version. I love her voice.

We shouldn't forget that no matter who covers his songs, he's still getting paid!