the "it" !

skywalker said:

I would argue that their hasn't been anyone in pop music has been "revolutionary" for a long time.

I concur. If not even a new act can be revolutionary these day, then why expect the same from someone who had already set trends and influenced other musicians? If someone presents X amount of ideas, it doesn't mean they will be able to do it even one more time, just because they don't retire and keep on making music. This definitely applies acts like U2 or Madonna as well.

Simple - EFFORT!

I still love a lot of his stuff..hated 2010 but loved Lotus Flower. However, h e just lokos like it's all so easy. That's b/c it is. He's so good that it is easy for him to do what he does. He's not challenging himself.

JoeyCococo said:

Simple - EFFORT!

I still love a lot of his stuff..hated 2010 but loved Lotus Flower. However, h e just lokos like it's all so easy. That's b/c it is. He's so good that it is easy for him to do what he does. He's not challenging himself.

That is exactly what I like about Prince. The most difficult guitar riffs seem to him 'easy does it' ! That makes his concerts special and great!

I think it is very cool to have it come across as easy and express joy while playing complicated musicology. And not eliciting admiration by posing; expressing through your posture or facial expression that what you are doing is very hard to do and therefore the audiance should worship.

What is missing from Prince's recent music? That's easy...PRINCE!!!!!!

I don't care what that imposter pretending to be Prince, says or does! PRINCE has been MIA for years now!

I keep trying to get SOMEBODY to put out an APB, an Amber Alert or SOMETHING but nobody believes me!

.

[Edited 11/25/10 14:33pm]

skywalker said:

Care to give some examples of this as it relates to Prince? Sure, I'll give you "Jughead". However, it seems to me that most of what Prince fans like/dislike is splitting hairs. It's been said, but one person's New Power Soul is another person's Lovesexy.

I wasn't thinking of specific songs in particular but rather Prince's approach, consideration and treatment of his material, how he records it and what he releases.

Once upon a time Prince claimed to strive for never repeating himself. When someone would say "Man, why can't you make music like 1999 again?" he would make some comment about it being in the past and if people want that sound they can just listen to 1999 again.

Now he's spent the better part of a decade making music that is all about capturing the past. Even when it's great music, it's still rather derivative. 20Ten is the most derivative yet.

Let me ask you this: What artist in pop music is currently ground breaking or is making music that is challenging?

Artists like Cee-LO and Jane Monae are artistic and creative, but they are not covering new ground. They are rehashing what has been done before. I would argue that their hasn't been anyone in pop music has been "revolutionary" for a long time.

That's an irrelevant question, imo. The opinion that no one else is making "ground breaking" music does NOT eliminate the fact that Prince isn't, either. It does NOT mean that "quality" is NOT missing. ...and it doesn't have to be that Prince needs to create a brand new sound, he isn't even really exploring/experimenting with existing styles much any longer. He's just got his little book of 10-20 recipes and makes them over and over again in his little purple kitchen like a chef that's lost his passion for cooking. Occasionally, there are brief glimmers of the old wizardry but it mostly feels very rote, even if professionally made.

So, you can justify/excuse why Prince is no longer doing that BUT it's still something missing - whether you consider that good or bad.

[Edited 11/26/10 1:16am]

The initial question is not precise enough.

What is missing from Prince's recent music

1) in order to satisfy you?

2) in order to receive public attention and airplay?

3) in order to be regarded as "cutting edge" or "innovative"?

ad 1) This is completely subjective. Prince fan A might be a fan of his early work and will miss the synthesizer nastiness of "Dirty Mind". Prince fan B might be a fan of the 1985-1988 period and just misses the incorporation of new musical influences. And so on, and so on... And then there will be Prince fans who are satisfied with what he puts out. It's all up to you.

ad 2) Simple answer: regular distribution pathways and a major label to push his stuff onto the airwaves of radio, MTV or whatever.

ad 3) This is probably the most complicated aspect. I cannot recall anyone from popular music who has been associated with the aforementioned properties at the age of 52. Do you know anyone? Imagine this case: If there is a refreshing album from Janelle Monae and one from Prince, who will get the attention of the press? Probably the first one, who is young and a new ingredient in pop music, rather than the guy who is around for 32 years already.

Now, if you ask me... I'm quite satisfied with what he puts out lately. I would agree with Skywalker, the only thing I miss is the "overall vibe" Prince used to put into his albums. This has vanished IMO when he decided to stop the one-album deals with major labels, i.e. from 2007's "Planet Earth" onwards. I can see the concept behind "Musicology" and "3121", but have a hard time to do that for any album released afterwards. On the other hand, do you put a lot of effort into the design of a record which is distributed with a newspaper? If there is one thing I would like to change, it's that I would prefer to have the one-album major label deals back, alongside with a bit more care to give the albums a certain kind of "flavour". And please, Prince, put up a decent website with a download store, so I can give you some of my hard-earned money to buy outtakes, concerts etc. Well, that's not going to happen anyway...

Andre 3000.

EmancipationLover said:

The initial question is not precise enough.

What is missing from Prince's recent music

1) in order to satisfy you?

2) in order to receive public attention and airplay?

3) in order to be regarded as "cutting edge" or "innovative"?

ad 1) This is completely subjective. Prince fan A might be a fan of his early work and will miss the synthesizer nastiness of "Dirty Mind". Prince fan B might be a fan of the 1985-1988 period and just misses the incorporation of new musical influences. And so on, and so on... And then there will be Prince fans who are satisfied with what he puts out. It's all up to you.

ad 2) Simple answer: regular distribution pathways and a major label to push his stuff onto the airwaves of radio, MTV or whatever.

ad 3) This is probably the most complicated aspect. I cannot recall anyone from popular music who has been associated with the aforementioned properties at the age of 52. Do you know anyone? Imagine this case: If there is a refreshing album from Janelle Monae and one from Prince, who will get the attention of the press? Probably the first one, who is young and a new ingredient in pop music, rather than the guy who is around for 32 years already.

Now, if you ask me... I'm quite satisfied with what he puts out lately. I would agree with Skywalker, the only thing I miss is the "overall vibe" Prince used to put into his albums. This has vanished IMO when he decided to stop the one-album deals with major labels, i.e. from 2007's "Planet Earth" onwards. I can see the concept behind "Musicology" and "3121", but have a hard time to do that for any album released afterwards. On the other hand, do you put a lot of effort into the design of a record which is distributed with a newspaper? If there is one thing I would like to change, it's that I would prefer to have the one-album major label deals back, alongside with a bit more care to give the albums a certain kind of "flavour". And please, Prince, put up a decent website with a download store, so I can give you some of my hard-earned money to buy outtakes, concerts etc. Well, that's not going to happen anyway...

jtfolden said:

I wasn't thinking of specific songs in particular but rather Prince's approach, consideration and treatment of his material, how he records it and what he releases.

Once upon a time Prince claimed to strive for never repeating himself. When someone would say "Man, why can't you make music like 1999 again?" he would make some comment about it being in the past and if people want that sound they can just listen to 1999 again.

Now he's spent the better part of a decade making music that is all about capturing the past. Even when it's great music, it's still rather derivative. 20Ten is the most derivative yet.

Our knowledge of Prince's approach/how he records it is speculative at best. We really don't know the ins and outs of his process. We speculate once the music comes out.

Meaning, for all we know..Controversy and 20Ten were recorded in a similar fashion, with a similar process/set of steps Prince goes through.

As far as Prince repeating himself, It seems like this is a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

If Prince goes back to his signature sound, like on 20Ten, he gets accused of copying himself. If Prince dabbles in other genres (like he did with hip hop) he gets accused of jumping on trends.

That's an irrelevant question, imo. The opinion that no one else is making "ground breaking" music does NOT eliminate the fact that Prince isn't, either. It does NOT mean that "quality" is NOT missing. ...and it doesn't have to be that Prince needs to create a brand new sound, he isn't even really exploring/experimenting with existing styles much any longer. He's just got his little book of 10-20 recipes and makes them over and over again in his little purple kitchen like a chef that's lost his passion for cooking.

Again, what do you want? A country album? What existing style can Prince dabble in that he hasn't already?

Occasionally, there are brief glimmers of the old wizardry but it mostly feels very rote, even if professionally made.

So, you can justify/excuse why Prince is no longer doing that BUT it's still something missing - whether you consider that good or bad.

Essentially what I hear you saying is that you are bored with Prince. Who is to blame for that?

EmancipationLover said:

The initial question is not precise enough.

What is missing from Prince's recent music

1) in order to satisfy you?

2) in order to receive public attention and airplay?

3) in order to be regarded as "cutting edge" or "innovative"?

ad 1) This is completely subjective. Prince fan A might be a fan of his early work and will miss the synthesizer nastiness of "Dirty Mind". Prince fan B might be a fan of the 1985-1988 period and just misses the incorporation of new musical influences. And so on, and so on... And then there will be Prince fans who are satisfied with what he puts out. It's all up to you.

ad 2) Simple answer: regular distribution pathways and a major label to push his stuff onto the airwaves of radio, MTV or whatever.

ad 3) This is probably the most complicated aspect. I cannot recall anyone from popular music who has been associated with the aforementioned properties at the age of 52. Do you know anyone? Imagine this case: If there is a refreshing album from Janelle Monae and one from Prince, who will get the attention of the press? Probably the first one, who is young and a new ingredient in pop music, rather than the guy who is around for 32 years already.

Now, if you ask me... I'm quite satisfied with what he puts out lately. I would agree with Skywalker, the only thing I miss is the "overall vibe" Prince used to put into his albums. This has vanished IMO when he decided to stop the one-album deals with major labels, i.e. from 2007's "Planet Earth" onwards. I can see the concept behind "Musicology" and "3121", but have a hard time to do that for any album released afterwards. On the other hand, do you put a lot of effort into the design of a record which is distributed with a newspaper? If there is one thing I would like to change, it's that I would prefer to have the one-album major label deals back, alongside with a bit more care to give the albums a certain kind of "flavour". And please, Prince, put up a decent website with a download store, so I can give you some of my hard-earned money to buy outtakes, concerts etc. Well, that's not going to happen anyway...

Marketing

skywalker said:

Our knowledge of Prince's approach/how he records it is speculative at best. We really don't know the ins and outs of his process. We speculate once the music comes out.

It is partly speculation BUT that the released product is evidence can not be denied.

Meaning, for all we know..Controversy and 20Ten were recorded in a similar fashion, with a similar process/set of steps Prince goes through.

Well, no, because we know that earlier in his career, like I said, he strove not to repeat himself. He even clearly voiced the fact that if he was doing something over again he had people around him to tell him and he would stick it back in the vault...

Again, whether or not his new penchant for continually repeating himself is good or bad is entirely up to the listener but there's no denying it's an about-face from him.

As far as Prince repeating himself, It seems like this is a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

If Prince goes back to his signature sound, like on 20Ten, he gets accused of copying himself. If Prince dabbles in other genres (like he did with hip hop) he gets accused of jumping on trends.

How fans treat it seems irrelevant to the fact of him doing it. Even if you were to speculate that Prince's actions are motivated by fan reactions that doesn't negate the original behavior. Prince is mostly looking back now instead of forward.

Essentially what I hear you saying is that you are bored with Prince. Who is to blame for that?

No, you don't hear me saying that. You are essentially trying to discount my statements because you can't refute them, I guess. Either way, you are ignoring it.

I never said I was bored - in fact I stated very clearly "I'm not a fan who prefers any single period, I pretty much like *something* from every decade..."

So quit trying to put all the perceived faults in Prince's music into the listener's ears. You sound like a fam doing that.

The OP asked what was missing from Prince's current music. You, yourself, even admit his music is not innovative at this point, you simply choose to excuse that because no one else's is, either.

skywalker said:

As far as Prince repeating himself, It seems like this is a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

If Prince goes back to his signature sound, like on 20Ten, he gets accused of copying himself. If Prince dabbles in other genres (like he did with hip hop) he gets accused of jumping on trends.

- Agreed. For ME, I would be happy to see Prince going to new directions in terms of harmony, jazz, etc, doing it his way. But lots of fams would complain. Lots of fams are only happy with some screaming and nasty lyrics.

It is partly speculation BUT that the released product is evidence can not be denied.

It can be denied/questioned/loved/preferred. It's subjective. My wife's favorite Prince albums are Prince and 20TEN. To pretend to understand process in which Prince gets to the released "product" is speculation.

Well, no, because we know that earlier in his career, like I said, he strove not to repeat himself. He even clearly voiced the fact that if he was doing something over again he had people around him to tell him and he would stick it back in the vault...

Again, whether or not his new penchant for continually repeating himself is good or bad is entirely up to the listener but there's no denying it's an about-face from him.

Our we taking what Prince says at face value? Despite what he said in interviews, For You and Prince were similar records in many ways. There are many elements of Controversy that are very similar/repeated from Dirty Mind as well. Despite what he claimed, there are instances of Prince repeating himself throughout his career.

How fans treat it seems irrelevant to the fact of him doing it. Even if you were to speculate that Prince's actions are motivated by fan reactions that doesn't negate the original behavior. Prince is mostly looking back now instead of forward.

I am not saying Prince's actions are motivated by fan reactions...at all. As I've said, the fan base doesn't all have the same mass reaction to his current output. Some people like it, some don't. It's been that way in Prince fandom since, at least '85.

What I am saying is that it is very easy for us, as fans, to sit here and piss and moan and speculate as to what/why he is doing what he is doing in terms of his music. Tell me this: What would Prince looking forward look/sound like?

No, you don't hear me saying that. You are essentially trying to discount my statements because you can't refute them, I guess. Either way, you are ignoring it.

I never said I was bored - in fact I stated very clearly "I'm not a fan who prefers any single period, I pretty much like *something* from every decade..."

Okay. I am sorry I generalized. I do give you props for finding something to like in each era. And I apologize if I painted you as being one sided.

So quit trying to put all the perceived faults in Prince's music into the listener's ears. You sound like a fam doing that.

Look at what you typed. "Perceived faults in Prince's music..." Who's perceptions are we talking about? The listeners. That's my entire point. We, the listeners, can dig it or not...but it is very sticky when you try to put your/our own expectations/hang ups on Prince. "Oh, he's not making the grooves that I like...he must not have people telling him how to do it right like in 1986."

Sure, he's the dude making the music, but it's not, as you said, a "product" ...it's art. The music is more than a pair of shoes you can return if you don't like the fit. Let me ask you this...do you think Prince makes music for his fans, or more for himself?

The OP asked what was missing from Prince's current music. You, yourself, even admit his music is not innovative at this point, you simply choose to excuse that because no one else's is, either.

I didn't exactly say that his music was not innovative. I questioned whether anyone is making innovative music as of right now. I think "innovative" is a buzzword that gets thrown around to often, but is hard to define.

skywalker said:

It can be denied/questioned/loved/preferred. It's subjective. My wife's favorite Prince albums are Prince and 20TEN. To pretend to understand process in which Prince gets to the released "product" is speculation.

Not exactly. Whether Jughead is a better song than When Doves Cry is subjective but I'm not suggesting that as the "evidence" in question at all. Indeed, you seem to keep coming back to how much someone likes the work in question and I keep trying to point out that's not applicable - particularly to me because I like a great deal of it over the course of his career. On a personal level, I dislike some of the work that might be considered innovative and like some of the "retreads" immensely BUT I still recognize it as that (innovative or a retread) independent of my personal tastes. It doesn't really line up as easily as hating it because it's new or loving it because it's "the old style" or vice versa.

What I am saying is that it is very easy for us, as fans, to sit here and piss and moan and speculate as to what/why he is doing what he is doing in terms of his music. Tell me this: What would Prince looking forward look/sound like?

The Rainbow Children when looked at as a whole was Prince looking forward, trying something new for himself. It may contain elements of Prince's typical style (because every artist has those little aspects to their work, much like a watermark on a photo) but it can't be looked at as him spinning his wheels or trying to recapture a past era. The Rave album on the other hand seems to be, from all accounts, exactly that.

(...and lest you think I'm saying that because I like TRC - No, I don't. In fact, I quite dislike it and never listen to it at this point. I do kind of like Rave, though.)

Look at what you typed. "Perceived faults in Prince's music..." Who's perceptions are we talking about? The listeners. That's my entire point. We, the listeners, can dig it or not...but it is very sticky when you try to put your/our own expectations/hang ups on Prince. "Oh, he's not making the grooves that I like...he must not have people telling him how to do it right like in 1986."

Actually, I typed it that way on purpose because you seem to be lumping any and every critique about his work as purely being invented by the listener despite the fact that all critiques are not the same.

Like I referenced above, if you were to suggest that saying Jughead is a better song than When Doves Cry is purely opinion and completely subjective then I'd agree. You say

However, I don't think it's subjective to state that 20Ten sounds like it came out of his early-mid 80's career. Whether you LIKE that or not is subjective, yes.

Is Prince repeating himself purely an invention/perception by the listener? Have the listeners of Prince's output collectively imagined that Musicology, 3121 and 20Ten hark back to earlier work? i don't think so. ...and, again, I say that as someone who likes quite a bit of that music. I'm not saying the fact that he repeats himself more now or that he revisits old concepts more frequently is a bad thing, ONLY that he's now doing it more frequently.

Sure, he's the dude making the music, but it's not, as you said, a "product" ...it's art. The music is more than a pair of shoes you can return if you don't like the fit. Let me ask you this...do you think Prince makes music for his fans, or more for himself?

Honestly? I don't think it's that cut and dry. I think it's very much a bit of both. ...but this is all speculation, right? I think a great deal of his music is just stuff he's made "for himself" so to speak but I, also, truly believe that there's a good deal he's made - or at least released - intentionally to please either commercial purposes or fans. I think Rave falls under the latter just going off the material, the statement from him and the various comments that came up on his website during that period (such as the references to "Prince" being producer or how he was dragging out the old instruments, etc...) Sure, you could argue that he made the music purely for himself and then just decided to market it in a way to appeal to fans but that's speculation, as well.

I didn't exactly say that his music was not innovative. I questioned whether anyone is making innovative music as of right now. I think "innovative" is a buzzword that gets thrown around to often, but is hard to define.

It's true... people love to use buzzwords and when they're overused they tend to lose their meaning after a while but I don't think all the value has been drained from this one yet. Is it really hard to see where Prince was being innovative in his own career (even if its not within the tapestry of pop music in general but inside his own body of work)? 1999, Parade, SOTT, Batman, New Power Soul, TRC, Musicology, LotusFlow3r, 20Ten... are all/none of those albums innovative within his body of work? Why/why not/impossible to say?

Not exactly. Whether Jughead is a better song than When Doves Cry is subjective but I'm not suggesting that as the "evidence" in question at all. Indeed, you seem to keep coming back to how much someone likes the work in question and I keep trying to point out that's not applicable - particularly to me because I like a great deal of it over the course of his career. On a personal level, I dislike some of the work that might be considered innovative and like some of the "retreads" immensely BUT I still recognize it as that (innovative or a retread) independent of my personal tastes. It doesn't really line up as easily as hating it because it's new or loving it because it's "the old style" or vice versa.

1. What is the "evidence" that you are suggesting. Give some examples.

2. You can recognize Prince's music as innovative or a retread? Do you think every one recognizes the music the same? Hears it the same? Categorizes it the same? I bet they don't. I bet there are a whole mess of songs that you and I hear differently. You may hear "Dance 4 me" and think it's an update of "Hot Thing". I may not hear the connection. So who is right/wrong?

The Rainbow Children when looked at as a whole was Prince looking forward, trying something new for himself. It may contain elements of Prince's typical style (because every artist has those little aspects to their work, much like a watermark on a photo) but it can't be looked at as him spinning his wheels or trying to recapture a past era. The Rave album on the other hand seems to be, from all accounts, exactly that.

(...and lest you think I'm saying that because I like TRC - No, I don't. In fact, I quite dislike it and never listen to it at this point. I do kind of like Rave, though.)

Regardless of if you like The Rainbow Children or not, I would not label it as "innovative". Creative-yes. Passionate-yes. Art-yes. Revolutionary? Meh.

I mean, in the sense that no other pop artist would/could make an album like The Rainbow Children it is was revolutionary...but that could be said of an album like Musicology as well.

Was it different for Prince at the time? Maybe. It was more traditional in it's instrumentation. However, the opera/episodic nature of the album had been done before on the album. Pick any song off of that album and I could point to a similar song from the past. I thought The Rainbow Children was more "classic Prince" than many others. I mean..1+1+1=3 IS vintage Minneapolis Sound. Don't you hear it? Or, are we hearing things differently?

Actually, I typed it that way on purpose because you seem to be lumping any and every critique about his work as purely being invented by the listener despite the fact that all critiques are not the same.

Like I referenced above, if you were to suggest that saying Jughead is a better song than When Doves Cry is purely opinion and completely subjective then I'd agree. You say

However, I don't think it's subjective to state that 20Ten sounds like it came out of his early-mid 80's career. Whether you LIKE that or not is subjective, yes.

Is Prince repeating himself purely an invention/perception by the listener? Have the listeners of Prince's output collectively imagined that Musicology, 3121 and 20Ten hark back to earlier work? i don't think so. ...and, again, I say that as someone who likes quite a bit of that music. I'm not saying the fact that he repeats himself more now or that he revisits old concepts more frequently is a bad thing, ONLY that he's now doing it more frequently.

1. Is it subjective to say that 20Ten came from his early to mid 80's career? Yes. I mean, would Prince have rapped in "Sticky Like Glue" in 1982? Nope. Also, "Laydown" doesn't sound like 80's Prince very much.''

2. You get opposing views from fans all the time on this line of thinking. Some think his newer stuff (2004 onwards) is a return to his "classic sound"...others disagree...some cannot even define/agree on what his "classic sound" is. Again, I am just saying people are struck by/hear music differently.

Honestly? I don't think it's that cut and dry. I think it's very much a bit of both. ...but this is all speculation, right? I think a great deal of his music is just stuff he's made "for himself" so to speak but I, also, truly believe that there's a good deal he's made - or at least released - intentionally to please either commercial purposes or fans. I think Rave falls under the latter just going off the material, the statement from him and the various comments that came up on his website during that period (such as the references to "Prince" being producer or how he was dragging out the old instruments, etc...) Sure, you could argue that he made the music purely for himself and then just decided to market it in a way to appeal to fans but that's speculation, as well.

I hear you. It is speculation...and people love to do it...myself included. However, I maintain that people to often look to Prince for the answers of their musical enjoyment, when really they need to look at themselves.

Bono just stated in a Rollingstone article that he, like most people, was very vulnerable and especially affected by music in his youth/teen years. I think this is the essence of my original statement.

It's not that you love Prince the most only as a teen, it's this: Music hits you (the listener) differently depending on where you are in your life. Whether it's age, financial circumstances, being in love, etc ....you will be moved by music/art differently at different times in your life.

It's true... people love to use buzzwords and when they're overused they tend to lose their meaning after a while but I don't think all the value has been drained from this one yet. Is it really hard to see where Prince was being innovative in his own career (even if its not within the tapestry of pop music in general but inside his own body of work)? 1999, Parade, SOTT, Batman, New Power Soul, TRC, Musicology, LotusFlow3r, 20Ten... are all/none of those albums innovative within his body of work? Why/why not/impossible to say?

Exactly. It's easy to say now in 2010 that Parade was innovative....but a good portion of fans in the USA slept on that album and thought that (except for "kiss") Prince had lost it. Time also changes perception...I've seen Come go from being underwhelming to being hailed as "a Prince classic " by many online fans.

In any event, thanks for the good talk and the back and forth. I appreciate it very much.

skywalker said:

1. What is the "evidence" that you are suggesting. Give some examples.

2. You can recognize Prince's music as innovative or a retread? Do you think every one recognizes the music the same? Hears it the same? Categorizes it the same? I bet they don't. I bet there are a whole mess of songs that you and I hear differently. You may hear "Dance 4 me" and think it's an update of "Hot Thing". I may not hear the connection. So who is right/wrong?

Actually, maybe Dance 4 Me is a good example to illustrate the point. In the lyrics, Prince is mixing the sacred and profane ("I like it when you dance 4 me! Hallelujah!"). He was apt to do this quite often earlier in his career but abandoned it along the way for the most part. I don't think it's subjective, on my behalf, to identify that as a trait of his earlier music.

It might be speculation to say Prince intended that as a throwback but given the further evidence that it's a) on an album called MPLSoUND and b)with a few more references to the past, as well (Such as the song dedicated to Kristen Scott Thomas), I think it's a safe call it's intentional.

Regardless of if you like The Rainbow Children or not, I would not label it as "innovative". Creative-yes. Passionate-yes. Art-yes. Revolutionary? Meh.

I mean, in the sense that no other pop artist would/could make an album like The Rainbow Children it is was revolutionary...but that could be said of an album like Musicology as well.

Was it different for Prince at the time? Maybe. It was more traditional in it's instrumentation.

I don't think innovative and revolutionary are interchangeable words, though. Revolutionary has a more public/external connotation in that it's something that effects change in others. A person or piece of artwork can be innovative yet entirely ignored. I think TRC is innovative for Prince during that specific point in his career. It may contain elements of earlier works but the overall album bears little direct resemblance to those before or since. It's certainly a more experimental aberration for him.

However, the opera/episodic nature of the album had been done before on the album. Pick any song off of that album and I could point to a similar song from the past. I thought The Rainbow Children was more "classic Prince" than many others. I mean..1+1+1=3 IS vintage Minneapolis Sound. Don't you hear it? Or, are we hearing things differently?

No I do hear that... and I've seen a lot of other people reference that track as a throwback, as well.

1. Is it subjective to say that 20Ten came from his early to mid 80's career? Yes. I mean, would Prince have rapped in "Sticky Like Glue" in 1982? Nope. Also, "Laydown" doesn't sound like 80's Prince very much.''

..probably why Laydown is a hidden track. There's the old saying that 'you can never go home again' and Prince could never make another 1999 no matter how much he wished to do so BUT 20Ten is the clearest sign yet that Prince is either intentionally or simply happy to repeat himself. I don't have the patience to type out long dialogues of musical theory but the overall texture of the album is certainly a throwback. I look at an album very much like I would a good piece of architecture. You may or may not love it but you can generally categorize it (even if you occasionally have to give up and just call it a muddle).

Bono just stated in a Rollingstone article that he, like most people, was very vulnerable and especially affected by music in his youth/teen years. I think this is the essence of my original statement.

It's not that you love Prince the most only as a teen, it's this: Music hits you (the listener) differently depending on where you are in your life. Whether it's age, financial circumstances, being in love, etc ....you will be moved by music/art differently at different times in your life.

I agree with that for the most part. Though for me personally, I don't think I was especially effected by music more in my youth. I certainly had more time to dwell on it and enjoy it but I still get the same thrill from new albums/artists today. In fact, I may get a deeper enjoyment from some of it given I have more life experience under my belt and more to identify with mentally/emotionally.

Though, I think that's a slightly different issue than what we've been discussing (although maybe completely applicable to others).

In any event, thanks for the good talk and the back and forth. I appreciate it very much.

Likewise!

This kinda living

From the Minneapolis Star Tribune (March 14, 2004):

Prince: An Oral History

LISA COLEMAN

He sent for me to come out to Minneapolis. I was fresh out of high school. Prince picked me up at the airport in his little Fiat sports car. He even let me smoke in his car. I dont think his ashtray had ever been used. He was really romancing me.

We got to his house and went downstairs. He pointed me to the piano and said "You can go play, and I'll be right back." I knew he was spying on me. I had been working on a Mozart concerto, so I started playing some of that. He came bounding down the stairs. Then he picked up a guitar, and we started jamming: I think he actually played "Party Up."

I stayed the weekend in a spare bedroom. When I looked around the house, he had the "A Star Is Born" poster-Kris Kristofferson and Barbra Streisand-on his wall in the bedroom. I thought that was so cute-boy rock 'n' roll.

I lived in his house on and off for a couple of years. We had a fight one day. He said something about me getting my own apartment, and I left the house and drove around for a while. When I got back, he had written me a whole song. It was so cute. The lyric was, "I guess I have a strange way of saying I love you." He had recorded it-drums, piano, guitar, bass and vocals with harmonies."

OldFriends4Sale said:

This kinda living

From the Minneapolis Star Tribune (March 14, 2004):

Prince: An Oral History

LISA COLEMAN

He sent for me to come out to Minneapolis. I was fresh out of high school. Prince picked me up at the airport in his little Fiat sports car. He even let me smoke in his car. I dont think his ashtray had ever been used. He was really romancing me.

We got to his house and went downstairs. He pointed me to the piano and said "You can go play, and I'll be right back." I knew he was spying on me. I had been working on a Mozart concerto, so I started playing some of that. He came bounding down the stairs. Then he picked up a guitar, and we started jamming: I think he actually played "Party Up."

I stayed the weekend in a spare bedroom. When I looked around the house, he had the "A Star Is Born" poster-Kris Kristofferson and Barbra Streisand-on his wall in the bedroom. I thought that was so cute-boy rock 'n' roll.

I lived in his house on and off for a couple of years. We had a fight one day. He said something about me getting my own apartment, and I left the house and drove around for a while. When I got back, he had written me a whole song. It was so cute. The lyric was, "I guess I have a strange way of saying I love you." He had recorded it-drums, piano, guitar, bass and vocals with harmonies."

Ah ... Thanks for this fam ...

W&L

Bass and Drums

Eric Leeds

Effort / time and care

Wit / fun

Good lyrics

An editor [I got too many average trax and too uch time!]

PurpleLove7 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

This kinda living

From the Minneapolis Star Tribune (March 14, 2004):

Prince: An Oral History

LISA COLEMAN

He sent for me to come out to Minneapolis. I was fresh out of high school. Prince picked me up at the airport in his little Fiat sports car. He even let me smoke in his car. I dont think his ashtray had ever been used. He was really romancing me.

We got to his house and went downstairs. He pointed me to the piano and said "You can go play, and I'll be right back." I knew he was spying on me. I had been working on a Mozart concerto, so I started playing some of that. He came bounding down the stairs. Then he picked up a guitar, and we started jamming: I think he actually played "Party Up."

I stayed the weekend in a spare bedroom. When I looked around the house, he had the "A Star Is Born" poster-Kris Kristofferson and Barbra Streisand-on his wall in the bedroom. I thought that was so cute-boy rock 'n' roll.

I lived in his house on and off for a couple of years. We had a fight one day. He said something about me getting my own apartment, and I left the house and drove around for a while. When I got back, he had written me a whole song. It was so cute. The lyric was, "I guess I have a strange way of saying I love you." He had recorded it-drums, piano, guitar, bass and vocals with harmonies."

Ah ... Thanks for this fam ...

that's lifes impact on creativity

And I love pieces of Prince history like that

RAWNESS is whats been missing for the past 10 years.

Before, musically he was the shepperd that lead the crop, whereas now he is just a sheep.

OldFriends4Sale said:

This kinda living

From the Minneapolis Star Tribune (March 14, 2004):

Prince: An Oral History

LISA COLEMAN

He sent for me to come out to Minneapolis. I was fresh out of high school. Prince picked me up at the airport in his little Fiat sports car. He even let me smoke in his car. I dont think his ashtray had ever been used. He was really romancing me.

We got to his house and went downstairs. He pointed me to the piano and said "You can go play, and I'll be right back." I knew he was spying on me. I had been working on a Mozart concerto, so I started playing some of that. He came bounding down the stairs. Then he picked up a guitar, and we started jamming: I think he actually played "Party Up."

I stayed the weekend in a spare bedroom. When I looked around the house, he had the "A Star Is Born" poster-Kris Kristofferson and Barbra Streisand-on his wall in the bedroom. I thought that was so cute-boy rock 'n' roll.

I lived in his house on and off for a couple of years. We had a fight one day. He said something about me getting my own apartment, and I left the house and drove around for a while. When I got back, he had written me a whole song. It was so cute. The lyric was, "I guess I have a strange way of saying I love you." He had recorded it-drums, piano, guitar, bass and vocals with harmonies."

cute story, thanks 4 posting.

youth!...prince has his old songs & his musical skills & amazing voice but as well

his life must have constraints now that weren't there when he was young, he is less hungry, has less energy, less everything i guess purely an age related thing & stuff that's come with age,

probably his testosterone has levelled out a bit too & this naturally has had influence on the music

& maybe his creative energy connections to the zone are semi blocked

some song lyrics from 'the jam' which are political but also relevant to my reasoning!

Life is timeless, days are long when you're young
You used to fall in love with everyone
Any guitar and any bass drum
Life is a drink and you get drunk when you're young
Life is new and there's things to be done
You can't wait to be grown up
Acceptance into the capital world
You pull on some weed and you pull on someone when you're young

But you find out life isn't like that
It's so hard to comprehend
Why you set up your dreams to have them smashed in the end

But you don't mind you've got time on your side
And they're never gonna make you stand in line
You're just waiting for the right time

You're fearless and brave - you can't be stopped when you're young
You swear you're never ever gonna work for someone
No corporations for the new age sons
Tears of rage run down your face
But still you say "it's fun"

And you find out life isn't like that
It's so hard to understand
Why the world is your oyster but your future's a clam

It's got you in its grip before you're born
It's done with the use of a dice and a board
They let you think you're king but you're really a pawn

You're fearless and brave - you can't be stopped when you're young
You used to fall in love with everyone
Any guitar and any bass drum

[Edited 11/29/10 19:23pm]

OldFriends4Sale said:

skywalker said:

What's missing? You. You aren't a teenager anymore. Sorry to say it.

I don't think it has anything to do with that.

At any age when people close off it affects their liveliness and like others said searching questions ec etc One of my favorite people to talk to is my almost 70 yr old aunt Margaret, you'd swear she was still a 20/30 something with her zest to live and she is still asking questions and struggling with herself at the same time she is settle as she tells me she would rather be the age she is than any other.

I think Prince's stardom got too him and some issues following the demise of the Dream Factory years then the 1988/1989 years that took Prince into a secluded life and then musical struggles with WB and people in his camp that were just musicians and not people in his life like in the 1980's has a big affect

Similarly with Michael Jackson, one of the top baddest entertainers that ever lived, yet the music output became stale every album had similar songs from the last and Michael off course could go to Studio 54 like he did in the 1970's that broke him into Off the Wall & Thriller

I think (as an entertainer) Madonna kept living as normal as a super star could, she stayed connected to a lot of what was happening, soaking it up. Even her 'religious' advent blew up and was not a turn off:Ray of Light

So I think a lot of it has to do with connections and grounding

People stil go back to the Dirty Mind - Lovesexy years, and you have to look at who was in his life, things like that affect all of us.

It would be an interesting test to play Sign O' the Times and then 3121 to a young teenager today, who is unfamiliar with Prince, and see which album they like better and to review it song by song.

ufoclub said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't think it has anything to do with that.

At any age when people close off it affects their liveliness and like others said searching questions ec etc One of my favorite people to talk to is my almost 70 yr old aunt Margaret, you'd swear she was still a 20/30 something with her zest to live and she is still asking questions and struggling with herself at the same time she is settle as she tells me she would rather be the age she is than any other.

I think Prince's stardom got too him and some issues following the demise of the Dream Factory years then the 1988/1989 years that took Prince into a secluded life and then musical struggles with WB and people in his camp that were just musicians and not people in his life like in the 1980's has a big affect

Similarly with Michael Jackson, one of the top baddest entertainers that ever lived, yet the music output became stale every album had similar songs from the last and Michael off course could go to Studio 54 like he did in the 1970's that broke him into Off the Wall & Thriller

I think (as an entertainer) Madonna kept living as normal as a super star could, she stayed connected to a lot of what was happening, soaking it up. Even her 'religious' advent blew up and was not a turn off:Ray of Light

So I think a lot of it has to do with connections and grounding

People stil go back to the Dirty Mind - Lovesexy years, and you have to look at who was in his life, things like that affect all of us.

It would be an interesting test to play Sign O' the Times and then 3121 to a young teenager today, who is unfamiliar with Prince, and see which album they like better and to review it song by song.

that would be interesting, but also do the same with people in their 60's

the 1980's is very people among youth now

OldFriends4Sale said:

ufoclub said:

It would be an interesting test to play Sign O' the Times and then 3121 to a young teenager today, who is unfamiliar with Prince, and see which album they like better and to review it song by song.

that would be interesting, but also do the same with people in their 60's

the 1980's is very people among youth now

Yes, but SOTT does not sound like typical 80's music!

the reason I say a current teenager, is because that really is the target market for pop music, and it always will be, riding on the teenage time window of the formation of basic cultural understanding, issues of conformity/independence (what's cool), and of course the most important of all: hormones and their effect on mental states of having crushes that seem like the end of the world, etc, etc.

Pop music is defined by teenage taste.

ufoclub said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

that would be interesting, but also do the same with people in their 60's

the 1980's is very people among youth now

Yes, but SOTT does not sound like typical 80's music!

the reason I say a current teenager, is because that really is the target market for pop music, and it always will be, riding on the teenage time window of the formation of basic cultural understanding, issues of conformity/independence (what's cool), and of course the most important of all: hormones and their effect on mental states of having crushes that seem like the end of the world, etc, etc.

Pop music is defined by teenage taste.

What a freaking good "quote"

So, I think what is missing from Prince's recent music is the true proximate influence of teenagers or young collaborators. If he were to get some teenage (or early 20's) interns or musician session players... I think we would see that sort of energy seep in.

But personally, I love a few tracks from every Prince album from current to old. I just hope he can continue to figure out ways to fund his ambition. So far he has done well! Prince is older and evolved now, and his musical excercises/experiments show a sophistication that beyond most of his 80's output (in my opinion). To me, the first track of 20ten is actually experiental in a obscure way, referencing a retro vibe of music that is not neccessarily familiar to contemporary masses.

I look at Prince the way I look at a contemporary visual artist and try to understand their work.

And I wouldn't think for a second he has slowed down recording in the studio... I think he has slowed down leaks.

sex, passion, kinkyness, funk and synth.