SOOPER said:

skywalker said:

Huh? Prince was way more of a recluse in the 80's than he is now.

I believe you've misunderstood his/her post and their subsequent reply to you reinforcing it and gone off on a tangental rave, they haven't suggested Prince is MORE recluse today than 30 years ago, and i dont really think "recluseness" is something you can quantifiably measure, but rather that the effects of being so no doubt compound over time.

Yup - that is what I attempted (poorly, I guess) to convey. (Thanks, Sooper!)

And now I've caused all this anger!

Sorry - I still stand by my opinion. (It's all conjecture anyways - no matter who says what. But that's what we do here on the org, right?)

It's why I love the org....hearing differing opinions and gaining new pieces information about Prince!

xoxo,

Carrie

Mintchip said:

Se7en said:

This is a great post, on point.

Thirded. Very well put, and very much how i see things.

Wonder, as in figuring things out, going on a journey, or struggling in front of mystery. Or even just the girl you're trying to get with. Instead we've got:

"if you want to get with me/this is how it's gonna be"

I don't remember the last Prince song i related to lyrically. I still appreciate the music, and will always appreciate the man, but once a guy gets all the answers he becomes very hard to listen to.

Very good points....

I was listening to Forever in Your Life....to me lyrically it cannot get any better. You listen to the content, meaning and execution and it's one of the best "musical crack" moments recorded by Prince. When you have experienced this then have to hear stuff like...."I hope he leaves ya for a basketball player....or the neighbors no my name. .....and the ear piercing "sometines I cry"...it makes me long for the likes of "Joy In Repetition" or "Mountains"...hell ALL of the music in RBC without the lyrics.

The recents pics posted with him in concert made me ponder to myself..."the only thing missing in these great shots is the Revolution!!" I bet some folks may say I"m living in the past but when a fellow orger can express EXACTLY what I'm feeling some truth has to be there.

I absolutely LOVE Prince and his journey and will add that I'm greatful to have enjoyed him and his talent in my lifetime.

estelle81 said:

sro100 said:

Fuck. Motherfucker. Pussy.

Yessss! I miss uncensored Prince. The moment someone starts censoring themselves is the moment they start changing for the boring.

[Edited 11/21/10 14:31pm]

Yeah I'm guilty of missing rated R Prince but we all had to grow up now darn it!

Erotic City always has me crossing my legs and biting a lip to this day!

[Edited 11/22/10 8:22am]

skywalker said:

What's missing? You. You aren't a teenager anymore. Sorry to say it.

I don't think it has anything to do with that.

At any age when people close off it affects their liveliness and like others said searching questions ec etc One of my favorite people to talk to is my almost 70 yr old aunt Margaret, you'd swear she was still a 20/30 something with her zest to live and she is still asking questions and struggling with herself at the same time she is settle as she tells me she would rather be the age she is than any other.

I think Prince's stardom got too him and some issues following the demise of the Dream Factory years then the 1988/1989 years that took Prince into a secluded life and then musical struggles with WB and people in his camp that were just musicians and not people in his life like in the 1980's has a big affect

Similarly with Michael Jackson, one of the top baddest entertainers that ever lived, yet the music output became stale every album had similar songs from the last and Michael off course could go to Studio 54 like he did in the 1970's that broke him into Off the Wall & Thriller

I think (as an entertainer) Madonna kept living as normal as a super star could, she stayed connected to a lot of what was happening, soaking it up. Even her 'religious' advent blew up and was not a turn off:Ray of Light

So I think a lot of it has to do with connections and grounding

People stil go back to the Dirty Mind - Lovesexy years, and you have to look at who was in his life, things like that affect all of us.

I'm happy to say I became a fan of P's music in my early 20's and I was not there to experience the Purple Rain craze or the Lovesexy Era. I became a fan during Emancipation Era and I think with me settlin' down, I was able to appreciate P's musical genius after the fact.

I don't think there's anything 'missing' from his music. I do get amp'd listening to the 1999, Purple Rain Era or the Parade Era music and you can tell P's youth was all over that vinyl but, I'm still coolin' and lovin' the LotusFlow3r and 20Ten vibe too.

NouveauDance said:

Melody, rhythm, care and passion.

He's still got rhythm, but I agree on the other three.

OldFriends4Sale said:

skywalker said:

What's missing? You. You aren't a teenager anymore. Sorry to say it.

I don't think it has anything to do with that.

At any age when people close off it affects their liveliness and like others said searching questions ec etc One of my favorite people to talk to is my almost 70 yr old aunt Margaret, you'd swear she was still a 20/30 something with her zest to live and she is still asking questions and struggling with herself at the same time she is settle as she tells me she would rather be the age she is than any other.

I think Prince's stardom got too him and some issues following the demise of the Dream Factory years then the 1988/1989 years that took Prince into a secluded life and then musical struggles with WB and people in his camp that were just musicians and not people in his life like in the 1980's has a big affect

Similarly with Michael Jackson, one of the top baddest entertainers that ever lived, yet the music output became stale every album had similar songs from the last and Michael off course could go to Studio 54 like he did in the 1970's that broke him into Off the Wall & Thriller

I think (as an entertainer) Madonna kept living as normal as a super star could, she stayed connected to a lot of what was happening, soaking it up. Even her 'religious' advent blew up and was not a turn off:Ray of Light

So I think a lot of it has to do with connections and grounding

People stil go back to the Dirty Mind - Lovesexy years, and you have to look at who was in his life, things like that affect all of us.

I disagree with your point of view in terms of how pertains to Prince's music. For two main reasons:

1. You are taking yourself (the listener) out of the equation completely.

2. You are speculating as to Prince's creative process and how it works...and MJ's and Madonna's for that matter. I am sure all three of them go/went about the creative process differently and are affected (or not) by numerous factors.

Even if you did have some legit insight into Prince's life/creative process and how that all works...you are still just speculating about an, ultimately, objective position.

skywalker said:

erik319 said:

skywalker said:

I disagree with your point of view in terms of how pertains to Prince's music. For two main reasons:

1. You are taking yourself (the listener) out of the equation completely.

2. You are speculating as to Prince's creative process and how it works...and MJ's and Madonna's for that matter. I am sure all three of them go/went about the creative process differently and are affected (or not) by numerous factors.

Even if you did have some legit insight into Prince's life/creative process and how that all works...you are still just speculating about an, ultimately, objective position.

Just out of interest, Skywalker, what do YOU think is missing frm Prince's recent output? Erik

Cohesive themes. I love it when Prince is on a tangent that everything else falls under.

Don't get me wrong, the album 20ten flows together, but I like it when the motif of the album oozes into his dress, the look of the videos, the tour, the style of his band, etc.

Musicology, 3121, and Lotusflow3r all had flourishes of an overall theme.. but the last time Prince really drove a motif through everything he was doing was probably during the Rainbow Children/One Nite Alone era.

skywalker said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't think it has anything to do with that.

At any age when people close off it affects their liveliness and like others said searching questions ec etc One of my favorite people to talk to is my almost 70 yr old aunt Margaret, you'd swear she was still a 20/30 something with her zest to live and she is still asking questions and struggling with herself at the same time she is settle as she tells me she would rather be the age she is than any other.

I think Prince's stardom got too him and some issues following the demise of the Dream Factory years then the 1988/1989 years that took Prince into a secluded life and then musical struggles with WB and people in his camp that were just musicians and not people in his life like in the 1980's has a big affect

Similarly with Michael Jackson, one of the top baddest entertainers that ever lived, yet the music output became stale every album had similar songs from the last and Michael off course could go to Studio 54 like he did in the 1970's that broke him into Off the Wall & Thriller

I think (as an entertainer) Madonna kept living as normal as a super star could, she stayed connected to a lot of what was happening, soaking it up. Even her 'religious' advent blew up and was not a turn off:Ray of Light

So I think a lot of it has to do with connections and grounding

People stil go back to the Dirty Mind - Lovesexy years, and you have to look at who was in his life, things like that affect all of us.

I disagree with your point of view in terms of how pertains to Prince's music. For two main reasons:

1. You are taking yourself (the listener) out of the equation completely.

2. You are speculating as to Prince's creative process and how it works...and MJ's and Madonna's for that matter. I am sure all three of them go/went about the creative process differently and are affected (or not) by numerous factors.

Even if you did have some legit insight into Prince's life/creative process and how that all works...you are still just speculating about an, ultimately, objective position.

No I'm totally in the equation. Life does that.

Not speculating, His influence and camp have a lot to do with the creative process, that's another life lesson. None of us create on our own. I can easily say that the Time had a serious impact on Prince's creativity writing music vision and performance. I can easily say people like Lisa Coleman Susannah & Wendy Melvoin, Dez Dickerson, Cat, Sheila E. Eric Leeds brought things that Prince never knew or experienced and opened him up to music/history and art he never experienced.

Well aren't we all just speculating? I mean please

energy

an electric spark

OldFriends4Sale said:

I think (as an entertainer) Madonna kept living as normal as a super star could, she stayed connected to a lot of what was happening, soaking it up. Even her 'religious' advent blew up and was not a turn off:Ray of Light

So I think a lot of it has to do with connections and grounding

People stil go back to the Dirty Mind - Lovesexy years, and you have to look at who was in his life, things like that affect all of us.

Trust me, plenty of people got turned off by Madonna after 1990. ROL might be her most praised record but at the time a lot of people were missing the "Into The Groove" Madonna who just wanted to have fun and had catchy pop melodies. And now some of the hardcore fans she gained with ROL are bashing her for not being "serious" and "not singing about herself" even though the bulk of Madonna's success comes from straightfoward dance pop and it's not like the title track of ROL was "her" at all either (it's an old song William Orbit was reworking for someone else but she took it and changed bits). So ultimately it IS about personal taste, people go back to Prince 80s because they lived it through and have the fond memories etc, the same way people fell in love with Madonna's "Secret" or "You'll See" and now they bash "4 Minutes" and "Devil Wouldn't Recognize You" for being "too commercial" even though they are cut from the same cloth. It's a common trap to expect the artist to evolve the same way as you do. As long as you're enjoying it, it's "oh s/he's cutting edge, constantly evolving and maturing!" but when you stop liking it, it's "s/he's stale and behind the times, all because of JW/Kabbalah!". Like Skywalker said, you're trying to find an objective excuse for being subjective, and go behind the veil of "if Prince was still doing this and that and was influenced by the people I want, I'd be still enjoying his work more".

LiveToTell86 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I think (as an entertainer) Madonna kept living as normal as a super star could, she stayed connected to a lot of what was happening, soaking it up. Even her 'religious' advent blew up and was not a turn off:Ray of Light

So I think a lot of it has to do with connections and grounding

People stil go back to the Dirty Mind - Lovesexy years, and you have to look at who was in his life, things like that affect all of us.

Trust me, plenty of people got turned off by Madonna after 1990. ROL might be her most praised record but at the time a lot of people were missing the "Into The Groove" Madonna who just wanted to have fun and had catchy pop melodies. And now some of the hardcore fans she gained with ROL are bashing her for not being "serious" and "not singing about herself" even though the bulk of Madonna's success comes from straightfoward dance pop and it's not like the title track of ROL was "her" at all either (it's an old song William Orbit was reworking for someone else but she took it and changed bits). So ultimately it IS about personal taste, people go back to Prince 80s because they lived it through and have the fond memories etc, the same way people fell in love with Madonna's "Secret" or "You'll See" and now they bash "4 Minutes" and "Devil Wouldn't Recognize You" for being "too commercial" even though they are cut from the same cloth. It's a common trap to expect the artist to evolve the same way as you do. As long as you're enjoying it, it's "oh s/he's cutting edge, constantly evolving and maturing!" but when you stop liking it, it's "s/he's stale and behind the times, all because of JW/Kabbalah!". Like Skywalker said, you're trying to find an objective excuse for being subjective, and go behind the veil of "if Prince was still doing this and that and was influenced by the people I want, I'd be still enjoying his work more".

Sorry, But I enjoy Prince, I LOVE 20Ten Lotus Flow3r(not MPLSound) Rainbowchildren, ONA NEWS I love these albums.

But no matter what there are reasons why, Prince ain't God, and he definately is a man as much of a fan of his I am.

I wish he would have continued with a style similar to Rainbow Children, but a whole lot of P fan don't like that album, ... Musicology didn't even come close neither did 3121 or Planet Earth. No inspiration

LiveToTell86 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I think (as an entertainer) Madonna kept living as normal as a super star could, she stayed connected to a lot of what was happening, soaking it up. Even her 'religious' advent blew up and was not a turn off:Ray of Light

So I think a lot of it has to do with connections and grounding

People stil go back to the Dirty Mind - Lovesexy years, and you have to look at who was in his life, things like that affect all of us.

Trust me, plenty of people got turned off by Madonna after 1990. ROL might be her most praised record but at the time a lot of people were missing the "Into The Groove" Madonna who just wanted to have fun and had catchy pop melodies. And now some of the hardcore fans she gained with ROL are bashing her for not being "serious" and "not singing about herself" even though the bulk of Madonna's success comes from straightfoward dance pop and it's not like the title track of ROL was "her" at all either (it's an old song William Orbit was reworking for someone else but she took it and changed bits). So ultimately it IS about personal taste, people go back to Prince 80s because they lived it through and have the fond memories etc, the same way people fell in love with Madonna's "Secret" or "You'll See" and now they bash "4 Minutes" and "Devil Wouldn't Recognize You" for being "too commercial" even though they are cut from the same cloth. It's a common trap to expect the artist to evolve the same way as you do. As long as you're enjoying it, it's "oh s/he's cutting edge, constantly evolving and maturing!" but when you stop liking it, it's "s/he's stale and behind the times, all because of JW/Kabbalah!". Like Skywalker said, you're trying to find an objective excuse for being subjective, and go behind the veil of "if Prince was still doing this and that and was influenced by the people I want, I'd be still enjoying his work more".

Yep.

LiveToTell86 said:

It's a common trap to expect the artist to evolve the same way as you do. As long as you're enjoying it, it's "oh s/he's cutting edge, constantly evolving and maturing!" but when you stop liking it, it's "s/he's stale and behind the times, all because of JW/Kabbalah!"

It sounds like you've, also, fallen into the trap that any problems with the "output" must only be in the listeners ears. It is true that the "quality" of artistic endeavors is almost entirely down to personal taste and perception and never at the level of 'fact" but there are some tale tale indicators that are pretty obvious and go well beyond personal opinion.

I'm not a fan who prefers any single period, I pretty much like *something* from every decade...and I can appreciate the craft work put into an album even if the final result is dodgy in my personal opinion.

..BUT to suggest that Prince is "constantly evolving and maturing" at this point is full out BS. Prince has spent an inordinate amount of time over the last 10-12 years spinning his wheels and repeating himself. Rave, Musicology, 3121 and 20Ten all sound like compilations of music from earlier periods in his career. Musicology and 20Ten in particular sound like Greatest Hits collections from an alternate universe as done by a cover band. I really don't think making "safe", non-challenging versions of music from a mold you broke 20 years ago falls under the heading of evolving and maturing.

skywalker said:

erik319 said:

skywalker said: Just out of interest, Skywalker, what do YOU think is missing frm Prince's recent output? Erik

Cohesive themes. I love it when Prince is on a tangent that everything else falls under.

Don't get me wrong, the album 20ten flows together, but I like it when the motif of the album oozes into his dress, the look of the videos, the tour, the style of his band, etc.

Musicology, 3121, and Lotusflow3r all had flourishes of an overall theme.. but the last time Prince really drove a motif through everything he was doing was probably during the Rainbow Children/One Nite Alone era.

I'd agree with that, for sure. That was why I was disappointed with Lotusflower. That album could have been fantastic. Rock album, mplsound album... but it only did half the job for me.

When I edited together my own lotusflower, removed what I considered the weak tracks and replaced with some of his recent guitar/funk stuff (PFUnk, Glasscutter, Purple House, etc...) it suddenly became a brilliant rock album.

It feels to me that he does thes fantastic sessions, creates a concept album, then another, then another, then another... and then instead of releasing them as they are, he just does a pick n mix on them...

Lyrically, the Rainbow Children was bobbins, to me, but musically, and themically, it's a fantastic album.

Maybe he's just bored cuz he's done it all before and has ran out of his (original) creative steam, personally i think theres only so much a person can do on their own, to stay fresh and original u need to hook up with others to get a different perspective on things, bring in new ideas. Is Prince the type of person who can let someone else direct him? (when it comes to music that is cuz i think his personal life is another thing)

imo, whatever is missing in his personal life, is usually the thing thats missing from his music.

there were times when nothing was missing, but these days there is.

i say that with all due respect to him as a musician, its only my opinion.

He still has great songs, but he also has more bad ones than he used to

I think he is too self-conscious about his position as a "voice" and feels a need to edu-ma-cate us

I think he thinks he does not have to re-write his terrible lyrics but just layer them heavily--that his every thought is worth recording. This is a common mistake among amateurs, thinking they are geniuses. Prince actually is a genius, so imagine how hard it must be to convince him to change a line or two. But real writers throw away more than they publish.

I think he is trying to keep a cool exterior rather than look totally nutty like he used to

I think maybe his coolest songs are not always the ones he puts out on an album

I think he has a fear of being as popular as he was in 1984

skywalker said:

LiveToTell86 said:

Yep. Also, nobody ever promised you that you're gonna love the same thing for decades, neither anyone ever guaranteed that an artist has an unlimited amount of ideas, and especially ideas that you're gonna love. I'll never understand that some people actually think good vs bad music is an universal and factual thing.

Agree completely. I enjoy Prince now just as much as I did back in the 80's. Some people don't. Is that Prince's fault? Did my taste in music drop off? It's all opinion.

Ok, I get your point - the quality of "art" is a subjective measure -- but regardles of whether we call it "better" or "worse," it is ok to acknowledge there's some "differences" in his music now then what it was 15 years ago (i'm not going back to the 80's, I'm talking about since 1996). Something happened between "Exodus" and the NPS album that has forever changed Prince music. Call it better, call it worse - that's for the listener to think. But something objectively changed. I think another poster was on point by saying it had to do w/ his belief he found the answers/truth (via larry graham and his new faith) as opposed to him searching - I don't know- but the music feels different - not just to me, but objectively speaking.

sex sex sex !!!!!

cowbell?

robinhood said:

imo, whatever is missing in his personal life, is usually the thing thats missing from his music.

there were times when nothing was missing, but these days there is.

i say that with all due respect to him as a musician, its only my opinion.

innovation

Jatrig said:

Ok, I get your point - the quality of "art" is a subjective measure -- but regardles of whether we call it "better" or "worse," it is ok to acknowledge there's some "differences" in his music now then what it was 15 years ago (i'm not going back to the 80's, I'm talking about since 1996). Something happened between "Exodus" and the NPS album that has forever changed Prince music. Call it better, call it worse - that's for the listener to think. But something objectively changed. I think another poster was on point by saying it had to do w/ his belief he found the answers/truth (via larry graham and his new faith) as opposed to him searching - I don't know- but the music feels different - not just to me, but objectively speaking.

Yup, on a very grand scale it seems as though Prince has stopped searching and challenging himself on both an intellectual and creative level...

It could be the JW conversion, it could be leaving WB... might be both!

Controversy and a dirty mind

absolutely nuthin.

thecloud said:

bonnie184 said:

Warner Brothers

And more cowbell.

Tony M. also, that i forgot

jtfolden said:

It sounds like you've, also, fallen into the trap that any problems with the "output" must only be in the listeners ears. It is true that the "quality" of artistic endeavors is almost entirely down to personal taste and perception and never at the level of 'fact" but there are some tale tale indicators that are pretty obvious and go well beyond personal opinion.

Care to give some examples of this as it relates to Prince? Sure, I'll give you "Jughead". However, it seems to me that most of what Prince fans like/dislike is splitting hairs. It's been said, but one person's New Power Soul is another person's Lovesexy.

I'm not a fan who prefers any single period, I pretty much like *something* from every decade...and I can appreciate the craft work put into an album even if the final result is dodgy in my personal opinion.

..BUT to suggest that Prince is "constantly evolving and maturing" at this point is full out BS. Prince has spent an inordinate amount of time over the last 10-12 years spinning his wheels and repeating himself. Rave, Musicology, 3121 and 20Ten all sound like compilations of music from earlier periods in his career. Musicology and 20Ten in particular sound like Greatest Hits collections from an alternate universe as done by a cover band. I really don't think making "safe", non-challenging versions of music from a mold you broke 20 years ago falls under the heading of evolving and maturing.

Let me ask you this: What artist in pop music is currently ground breaking or is making music that is challenging?

Artists like Cee-LO and Jane Monae are artistic and creative, but they are not covering new ground. They are rehashing what has been done before. I would argue that their hasn't been anyone in pop music has been "revolutionary" for a long time.

Jatrig said:

skywalker said:

Agree completely. I enjoy Prince now just as much as I did back in the 80's. Some people don't. Is that Prince's fault? Did my taste in music drop off? It's all opinion.

Ok, I get your point - the quality of "art" is a subjective measure -- but regardles of whether we call it "better" or "worse," it is ok to acknowledge there's some "differences" in his music now then what it was 15 years ago (i'm not going back to the 80's, I'm talking about since 1996). Something happened between "Exodus" and the NPS album that has forever changed Prince music. Call it better, call it worse - that's for the listener to think. But something objectively changed. I think another poster was on point by saying it had to do w/ his belief he found the answers/truth (via larry graham and his new faith) as opposed to him searching - I don't know- but the music feels different - not just to me, but objectively speaking.

I don't disagree that there is a shift in tone between Exodus and New Power Soul. That said, one could look at many 3 to 4 year spans in Prince's career and see dramatic shifts. There is also a dramatic shift from what he was doing in 1998 compared to 2001.