SavonOsco said:

Tremolina said:

Assume much? No, usually my clients didn't have to pay me a dime. But they still whored themseleves after being advised not to. In the hopes of getting paid themselves you know

Assumption is the only resort when viable information is not available...If you advise them not to..and they do it anyway?..it is what it is...that is not the fault for the decline of the industry..talent AND talentless artist will get the same terrible deal(that was my job in another life)...some lawyers were able to convince their artist not to sign or renegotiate...others?....oh well The label will make their money...but like any business..not adjusting or taking advantage of culture changes is always an appetite for failure

Most of my clients were 'start-ups' and so desperate, some would have sold their family just to get signed. Those who who already had a deal usually were willing to at least do some negotiation.

It is what is yes, but it's nowehere as bad as in the music industry. Other parts of the world of art and entertainment at least have some decent standard deals and are generally more positive.

RodeoSchro said:

Yeah, but you blame it on the record companies' lawyers and accountants!

There are a lot of assholes among them, but they are not the ones making the decisions.

They are just another bunch of ego tripping fools selling their souls for the allmighty dollar.

Now, the big wig ceo's and the big shot artists, they are a different story.

dalsh327 said:

The most important thing anyone can do when it comes to music is pass it along, turn people on to it, and participate in creating it.

You tell that to all those evil lawyers and accountants

SavonOsco said:

Agreed, the music industry is the snakepit everyone think it is....but accountants and lawyers don't decide to shove Drake or T-Pain down your throat...They don't decide that some groupie they used to trick out and try to make her a pop star... See where I'm going with this?

Yes, no? lol

My position: It's the big wig ceo's and and the big shot artists that have ruined the music industry.

Tremolina said:

SavonOsco said:

Agreed, the music industry is the snakepit everyone think it is....but accountants and lawyers don't decide to shove Drake or T-Pain down your throat...They don't decide that some groupie they used to trick out and try to make her a pop star... See where I'm going with this?

Yes, no? lol

My position: It's the big wig ceo's and and the big shot artists that have ruined the music industry.

What negotiating power do unsigned artists have in order to get a better deal?

ultimately we can place blame on whomever we like, although i agree with prince about lawyers and accountants.

the contracts artists sign are as much the problem as anything else, and those types of contracts are drafted by lawyers and they attract the kind of no-talent ego pop divas that have watered down the content of the industry.

its a human problem, this lack of self-respect and ethics. its not just in the music industry either, but it is more prevalent in the music industry because of how drenched it is in all the temptations that lead a person to sell their soul.

its a big money-makng industry that promises people fame and money, and when you live in a love-starved world, people run to whatever avenue they can to get the 'love' they really need, only to come up short at the end of it, cuz none of it is real anyway.

lawyers, accountants, pop stars, artists, ceo's etc etc ... they all in there for the same things: money and fame, the feeling of success and all that entails.

this is what happens when people look outside themselves for happiness, when people have been conditioned to believe the same old bullshit about money and fame.

the love of money promotes USURY, and usury is the root cause of so much financial dilemma on this planet its ludicrous.

plus i dont think a lot of artists are aware that they are directly contributing to the military budget when they sign a record deal. a lot of the profits of the industry get syphoned off to much bigger guys than the ceo's.

think mafia and arms dealers, satans little cult of unconscionable individuals who salivate over every power-tripping dollar they make. the music industry is one of their ports of call when they collect money for their dirty little deeds.

blood-lust, young flesh, glits and glam, everything superficial about the world you can find in the music industry, prostituting young women, dressing them up like whores, young boys trying to be manly doing their whole pimp routine, its really very sad.

music is meant to enlighten us, not take us down into hell, and that is what the money-lovers in the industry have done. the lawyers and accountants play a very direct role in that.

RodeoSchro said:

Tremolina said:

Yes, no? lol

My position: It's the big wig ceo's and and the big shot artists that have ruined the music industry.

What negotiating power do unsigned artists have in order to get a better deal?

they can sell a butt load of music, the power to get a better deal comes with the next contract.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

RodeoSchro said:

What negotiating power do unsigned artists have in order to get a better deal?

they can sell a butt load of music, the power to get a better deal comes with the next contract.

and that right there is totally wrong and unethical from the start because the companies place themsleves in a position of power over the artist from the beginning, with 'promises' and bribery and emotional blackmail.

robinhood said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

they can sell a butt load of music, the power to get a better deal comes with the next contract.

and that right there is totally wrong and unethical from the start because the companies place themsleves in a position of power over the artist from the beginning, with 'promises' and bribery and emotional blackmail.

i disagree, as the risk at the start is all on the record company. Many albums lose money. It is not until the act makes money that they are worth keeping even if it means giving into demands that most acts do not get. It is all about demand. I all prince albums sold 5 to 7 million copies he would still be with WB and own his masters.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

robinhood said:

and that right there is totally wrong and unethical from the start because the companies place themsleves in a position of power over the artist from the beginning, with 'promises' and bribery and emotional blackmail.

i disagree, as the risk at the start is all on the record company.

financially, yes, but what about the risk the artist is taking on the company? a company which may or may not promote them and do their job properly?

the companies even go so far as to protect themselves from any accusation they have not done their part of their deal, with clauses in their contracts absolving them from that responsibility.

so once again, the company has the upper hand from the beginning, and its not just about money, its about power, psychological and financial.

robinhood said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

i disagree, as the risk at the start is all on the record company.

financially, yes, but what about the risk the artist is taking on the company? a company which may or may not promote them and do their job properly?

the companies even go so far as to protect themselves from any accusation they have not done their part of their deal, with clauses in their contracts absolving them from that responsibility.

so once again, the company has the upper hand from the beginning, and its not just about money, its about power, psychological and financial.

it cost a bunch of money to produce, manufacture, ship, and promote a cd....so it stands to reason they would have the most power.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

robinhood said:

financially, yes, but what about the risk the artist is taking on the company? a company which may or may not promote them and do their job properly?

the companies even go so far as to protect themselves from any accusation they have not done their part of their deal, with clauses in their contracts absolving them from that responsibility.

so once again, the company has the upper hand from the beginning, and its not just about money, its about power, psychological and financial.

it cost a bunch of money to produce, manufacture, ship, and promote a cd....so it stands to reason they would have the most power.

the songwriter sits at the top of the music industry pyramid. without songs, no one has a job.

that is power, not this little power due to money, not this silliness of the industry, to presume that money is the singular great power over all others.

there is no power higher than that of the writer, yet they do not respect this, instead, they go as far as to do the opposite, by demanding a chunk of publishing.

any and all contracts in this vein are the work of utter sheisters, ignorant fools, and power-tripping parasites.

when this world wakes up and realizes that money is the weakest form of power on the earth, then maybe things will turn around.

but to date, the money-lovers, who make money their god, roam about the land with their heads up their spineless asses, responsible for a music industry which is rotting at its very core, because of them.

oh how i love it when they blame the internet

the term starving artist comes to mind.

RodeoSchro said:

What negotiating power do unsigned artists have in order to get a better deal?

That largely depends on how bad the record company wants them

OnlyNDaUsa said:

robinhood said:

and that right there is totally wrong and unethical from the start because the companies place themsleves in a position of power over the artist from the beginning, with 'promises' and bribery and emotional blackmail.

i disagree, as the risk at the start is all on the record company.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that they need to own everything that doesn't belong to them for the entire universe and untill kingdom come.

I often advised artists that were asked to sell all their rights, to go for an exclusive license deal that is limited in time, place and distribution channels, because the company doesn't have to own any and all rights. It only needs the rights it needs to be able to do its job and only for the period of time it is willing to invest in you.

That is the real reality. But most companies are so greedy and freaky on controlling and milking everything, that they are deluded into thinking they can really, actually control anything with their contracts, just as long as you write it down on a piece of paper. And artists are often so desparate for money and fame, that they really do not care much what they sign, as long as they get paid and worshipped.

You wouldn't believe some of the shit I've seen.

--

[Edited 11/16/10 19:06pm]

robinhood said:

there is no power higher than that of the writer, yet they do not respect this, instead, they go as far as to do the opposite, by demanding a chunk of publishing.

The law grants the power to authorise to the author for good reason.

But musicians discard that in a heartbeat for a lil bit of change and the dream to become famous.

I agree the system is not perfect, however, how many people would never get the chance to make music with out the money minders? It is a trade of that means that an artist loses some control.

Yet, if they become popular enough they can then leverage that when it is time to re-new a deal.

it is a choice the artist makes to get the chance to make it big. If the system was more fair then is seems that far fewer acts would be given the chance.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

I agree the system is not perfect, however, how many people would never get the chance to make music with out the money minders? It is a trade of that means that an artist loses some control.

The point is, they don't just lose "some control", they lose ALL control.

Yet, if they become popular enough they can then leverage that when it is time to re-new a deal.

The point is that when they do become popular, recording artists are usually bound to a deal covering 4, 5, 6, sometimes even more albums. In record company land, where it's not normal to release more than one album every two years, that means you could be stuck to your record company for 10 to 15, potentially even 20 years!

Nobody ever works under such conditions. Musicians do however.

it is a choice the artist makes to get the chance to make it big. If the system was more fair then is seems that far fewer acts would be given the chance.

It's a choice to be pimped and become a whore of the industry.

robinhood said:

music is meant to enlighten us, not take us down into hell, and that is what the money-lovers in the industry have done. the lawyers and accountants play a very direct role in that.

They do, but they are not the ones who decide it should be like this. They just execute the wishes of the ones in control in exchange for their money shot.

Just a special branch of whores.

-

[Edited 11/16/10 18:18pm]

robinhood said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

they can sell a butt load of music, the power to get a better deal comes with the next contract.

and that right there is totally wrong and unethical from the start because the companies place themsleves in a position of power over the artist from the beginning, with 'promises' and bribery and emotional blackmail.

It's not just wrong and unethical, but it's also not true. When you are really good and a record company's A&R manager really wants you bad. When they don't want to take the chance that your talented ass will be signed by its competitors, then they will definately arrange a better deal for you than the usual shit. There are artists who have made it big on a major label ánd were let to own all their stuff. When you have real talent, luck and guts you CAN pull it off.

-

[Edited 11/16/10 18:33pm]

^^

While to some extent it is conjencture what I am about to say, the problem really is that 99% of the musicians in this world doesn't have enough self esteem to believe that they really have the talent it takes. They sooner believe that they are worthless and very often loathe themselves so much that the notion of being the owner of your own music becomes strange to them as soon as they get in touch with a record company. They do not have the guts either to ask for a decent deal, not even small changes to a deal they know will be bad for them. They are usually only familiar with taking risks in the department of self destruction. What they are left with is hopes of good luck. Not many have that and once they do, it is usually followed up by being bend over and takingh it like a champ.

CEO's, A&R managers, lawyers and accountants all know this. And artists themselves too.

Tremolina said:

robinhood said:

and that right there is totally wrong and unethical from the start because the companies place themsleves in a position of power over the artist from the beginning, with 'promises' and bribery and emotional blackmail.

It's not just wrong and unethical, but it's also not true. When you are really good and a record company's A&R manager really wants you bad. When they don't want to take the chance that your talented ass will be signed by its competitors, then they will definately arrange a better deal for you than the usual shit. There are artists who have made it big on a major label ánd were let to own all their stuff. When you have real talent, luck and guts you CAN pull it off.

so basically they are discriminatory from the get go, no equal rights across the board for all artists, but specialized contracts for those artists they think they stand a better chance of making money with.

i dont believe for a second that a customized contract is any better in the long run than the standard contract. they both mean the same thing but the numbers are different. big whoopdy doo.

the music industry (contracts specifically) violate the very premise of some of our constitutional rights, employees rights, and all manner of discriminations they practise.

the point is trem, the companies presume power over the artist from the get go, whether they want the artist badly or not,

the power-balance is incorrect and reflects the pure arrogance of these people who have no talent themselves, do not make music themselves, and cannot write music themselves. they are laughable.

any recording contract is an infection on morality, and when prince says 'the internet is dead' i believe what he is really saying (without knowing it) is 'the music industry is dead'.

why anyone would even want to be part of such a horrid scene these days i have no idea.

oh thats right, we have american idol and x factor type shows promoting the crap out of this dead industry, filling it with more inane prancers with stars in their eyes who fade into obscurity after one lousy album.

its sad and decrepit and should be treated for exactly what it is, an infectious deadly disease which leaves its victims all dried up in rehab crying woe is me while mister mafia counts his cash.

a whole new world opened up for artists, writers and musicians ages ago and only people who are stuck in the old world even bother with this commercialized nonsense and call it wonderful. it is not.

the lawyers suck, the ceo's suck, the A&R guys suck, they all suck, and they dont have the balls to blame themselves for why they arent selling as many units any more.

but i say let them keep going on their little merry-go-round of dollar signs pimps and whores. it makes for wonderful entertainment.

they're like the little bits of screwed up paper on my desk that i piff around with my pen. eventually they all end up in the waste basket.

the point is trem, the companies presume power over the artist from the get go, whether they want the artist badly or not,

They have the power because they have the money, robin. The law may grant the power to the authors, but the reality is that money talks to artists, yet the idea behind the law does not.

Producing a record, distributing it, promoting it, all that costs a lot of money no artist has. Artists want to make it big and they want to make it 'easy come, easy go'.

So when the record company pays them an advance that covers all those costs and lets them live as kings for a year, 99% signs for whatever.

Even when they have the cash to produce their records by themselves, like Prince, because they made it big already and can pay for it themselves, they usually still crave the major advances.

Ain't nothing more addictive than seeing those zeros pop up on your bank account.

This 'system' is grained into their DNA. Remember Prince saying the internet is dead and in the same sentence complaining about Apple's Itunes, because they do not even want to pay him an advance.

Why should he give them his music then? he asks

Musicians, A&R managers, CEO's, laywers, accountants, they all just keep on banging their heads on the wall.

Why won't the internet adjust to our demands???

Because the internet is free and they are not. Because it renders their old dinosaur business models completely useless. Becuse it is a global copying machine, the epitomy of the opposite of copyright. Because the internet will be here long after they are gone.

They are the ones who need to adapt, but they have real trouble doing that. That's because they are lazy and stuck to their old ways of making easy money. It's also because they are entangled in their contracts, slaves of their own system, afraid of change, afraid to lose out, afraid to adapt. Afraid of letting go of all their old ways and privileges.

But one day they will. It's just a matter of time.

--

[Edited 11/17/10 9:00am]

Tremolina said:

Why won't the internet adjust to our demands???

Because the internet is free and they are not. Because it renders their old dinosaur business models completely useless.

Becuse it is a global copying machine, the epitomy of the opposite of copyright.

Because the internet will be here long after they are gone.

They are the ones who need to adapt, but they have real trouble doing that.

That's because they are lazy and stuck to their old ways of making easy money.

It's also because they are entangled in their contracts, slaves of their own system, afraid of change, afraid to lose out, afraid to adapt.

Afraid of letting go of all their old ways and privileges.

reminds me of part of a hopi prophecy:

"There is a river flowing now very fast. It is so great and swift that there are those who will be afraid.

They will try to hold on to the shore. They will feel they are being torn apart and will suffer greatly.

Know the river has its destination. The elders say we must let go of the shore, push off into the middle of the river, keep our eyes open, and our heads above the water.

And I say, see who is in there with you and celebrate. At this time in history, we are to take nothing personally, least of all ourselves.

For the moment that we do, our spiritual growth and journey come to a halt."

i'd like to think everyone on the earth could adjust to the 'new world' and be able able to let go of the old one.

i always hold that hope in my heart, but realistically i dont think everyone will. i think some people will get washed away with the tide, by choice of course.

the old system was great in that it gave us technology. now we have the choice of what we will do with that technology.

money becomes a secondary cause when people think about what is best for everyone, instead of what is best for only themselves, imo.

a lot of people are caught up in ego, taking everything personally, unable to practise objectivity in order to find the right solutions.

they've become blinded by their habits and as you say, the system, which they've been conditioned into accepting, and believing to be real, since birth.

it takes a lot of courage, or some kind of divine epiphany, for people to snap out of that. i hope what you say is true that they will open their eyes.

i left the old system 10 years ago, so sometimes it gets frustrating to see an artist i love, still caught up in it.

but i understand, he has been conditioned by that system, despite his many attempts to be free of it, i think his ego has had the final say.

i'm thinking of a michael jackson called 'money', it seems to relate to this topic so i hope you dont mind me posting the lyrics here:

Lie for it
Spy for it
Kill for it
Die for it
So you call it trust
But I say it's just
In the devil's game
Of greed and lust
They don't care
They'd do me for the money
They don't care
They use me for the money
So you go to church
Read the Holy word
In the scheme of life
It's all absurd
They don't care
They'd kill for the money
Do or dare
The thrill for the money
You're saluting the flag
Your country trusts you
Now you're wearing a badge
You're called the "Just Few"
And you're fighting the wars
A soldier must do
I'll never betray or deceive you my friend but...
If you show me the cash
Then I will take it
If you tell me to cry
Then I will fake it
If you give me a hand
Then I will shake it
You'll do anything for money...
Anything
Anything
Anything for money
Would lie for you
Would die for you
Even sell my soul to the devil
Anything
Anything
Anything for money
Would lie for you
Would die for you
Even sell my soul to the devil
Insurance?
Where do your loyalties lie?
Is that your alibi?
I don't think so
You don't care
You'd do her for the money
Say it's fair
You sue her for the money
Want your pot of gold
Need the Midas touch
Bet you sell your soul
Cuz your God is such
You don't care

You kill for the money
Do or dare

The thrill for the money
Are you infected with the same disease
Of lust, gluttoney and greed?
Then watch the ones
With the biggest smiles
The idle jabbers...

Cuz they're the backstabbers
If you know it's a lie
Then you will swear it
If you give it with guilt
Then you will bear it
If it's taking a chance
Then you will dare it
You'll do anything for money...
Anything
Anything
Anything for money
Would lie for you
Would die for you
Even sell my soul to the devil
Anything
Anything
Anything for money
Would lie for you
Would die for you
Even sell my soul to the devil
You say you wouldn't do it
For all the money in the world
I don't think so

If you show me the man
Then I will sell him
If you ask me to lie
Then I will tell him
If you're dealing with God
Then you will hell him
You'll do anything for money
Anything
Anything
Anything for money
Would lie for you
Would die for you
Even sell my soul to the devil

that pretty much sums it up, for me anyway

Spinlight said:

SavonOsco said:

muleFunk said: Ignore that racist bait food and he's right on the other part

Prince has gone on record several times talking about how the jewish businessmen took his money and his ancestors' money.

Any time I see anything about Bronfman Jr and Warners, it's getting posted. He's optimistic about digital music sales.

Warner Music Expects Digital Growth to Accelerate

http://www.billboard.biz/...4a3f6e3b17

Warner Music Q4 Loss Widens

http://www.billboard.biz/...0367778c8b

The top sellers in the quarter included Linkin Park, Phil Collins and the Zac Brown Band, in addition to two Japanese artists -- Kobukuro and Superfly. For the full year, major sellers included Michael Buble, Jay-Z, Linkin Park, Muse and the "New Moon" soundtrack album.

rap said:

Spinlight said:

Prince has gone on record several times talking about how the jewish businessmen took his money and his ancestors' money.

Seriously? When?

Maybe Mel Gibson said that, but I don't think Prince goes that blatant.

Interesting intelligent thread guys. A nice read.

Robinhood: Love that song of MJs....it's so true.

Bohemian67 said:

Robinhood: Love that song of MJs....it's so true.

yep.