So today I get this email from a friend and fellow Prince fan, asking a very interesting question. I figured I'd put it to the Org and see if it rang true or not.

Time upon a once, I remember reading someones speculation that Prince's Camille character was possibly inspired by a historical character that was either androgynous or a transvestite - who had the same name. Does this ring your bell? I was interested in reading about that person again.

Thoughts?

Quote from DMSR by Per Nilsen (p 217):

"Prince has hinted that the name was inspired by Herculine Barbin, a famous 19th century hermaphrodite who was nicknamed Camille. Though raised as a female, in his early twenties Barbin was ruled to be legally male."

LOL, I just read what wikipedia has on this person....one of the things it said was when Herculine was still thought to be a woman, she fell in love with a fellow teacher and demanded to be the one to dress her!! sound familiar?

"If I was your girlfriend, would you let me dress you?"

I don't know, but this whole Camille thing, if it were inspired by this person, is all too disturbing for words!

Herculine Barbin is the person my friend was thinking of. Thanks!

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:

LOL, I just read what wikipedia has on this person....one of the things it said was when Herculine was still thought to be a woman, she fell in love with a fellow teacher and demanded to be the one to dress her!! sound familiar?

"If I was your girlfriend, would you let me dress you?"

I don't know, but this whole Camille thing, if it were inspired by this person, is all too disturbing for words!

Why is it disturbing? It's part of someone's human experience.

As far as the song, perhaps you are unaware of the fact that Prince wrote that to Susannah, because he was jealous of her relationship w/ her twin sister, knowing the closeness that twins have, and that he could never have w/ her.

ernestsewell said:

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:

LOL, I just read what wikipedia has on this person....one of the things it said was when Herculine was still thought to be a woman, she fell in love with a fellow teacher and demanded to be the one to dress her!! sound familiar?

"If I was your girlfriend, would you let me dress you?"

I don't know, but this whole Camille thing, if it were inspired by this person, is all too disturbing for words!

Why is it disturbing? It's part of someone's human experience.

As far as the song, perhaps you are unaware of the fact that Prince wrote that to Susannah, because he was jealous of her relationship w/ her twin sister, knowing the closeness that twins have, and that he could never have w/ her.

if this is true, thats a damn shame. how are u gonna be jealous of her blood sister?

PicklesMcMillan said:

ernestsewell said:

Why is it disturbing? It's part of someone's human experience.

As far as the song, perhaps you are unaware of the fact that Prince wrote that to Susannah, because he was jealous of her relationship w/ her twin sister, knowing the closeness that twins have, and that he could never have w/ her.

if this is true, thats a damn shame. how are u gonna be jealous of her blood sister?

Are you serious?

Jealousy is not just about sex and love, but about feeling left out of or missing out on a somthing, in this case of the closeness of the two sisters.

Are you saying it is not healthy? Maybe. Or you might say that these are very common feelings in relationships in trouble, and as far as I know, he loved Susannah very much, but the relationship was on the brink of being over and filled with conflict and of not feeling closeness.

O my god - did I just jump into the gossip pool?

My point is: Jealousy is a human emotion, it may not be pretty, but it is pretty commonplace.

irreverence said:

PicklesMcMillan said:

if this is true, thats a damn shame. how are u gonna be jealous of her blood sister?

Are you serious?

Jealousy is not just about sex and love, but about feeling left out of or missing out on a somthing, in this case of the closeness of the two sisters.

That's it, in a nutshell.

whats hermaphrodite? isnt she a greek goddess?

robinhood said:

whats hermaphrodite? isnt she a greek goddess?

No, that would be Aphrodite.

SuperFunk59 said:

robinhood said:
whats hermaphrodite? isnt she a greek goddess?

No, that would be Aphrodite.

owwa!

Can someone bring me up to date on Camille and how the personna relates to Prince? Which songs are song by "Camille"?

CLR said:

Can someone bring me up to date on Camille and how the personna relates to Prince? Which songs are song by "Camille"?

http://tinyurl.com/32f6d2d

irreverence said:

PicklesMcMillan said:

if this is true, thats a damn shame. how are u gonna be jealous of her blood sister?

Are you serious?

Jealousy is not just about sex and love, but about feeling left out of or missing out on a somthing, in this case of the closeness of the two sisters.

Are you saying it is not healthy? Maybe. Or you might say that these are very common feelings in relationships in trouble, and as far as I know, he loved Susannah very much, but the relationship was on the brink of being over and filled with conflict and of not feeling closeness.

O my god - did I just jump into the gossip pool?

My point is: Jealousy is a human emotion, it may not be pretty, but it is pretty commonplace.

i agree with on everything .. i really do

but still, how are u gonna be jealous of her twin sister?

if you want that closeness then be an understanding boyfriend..

PicklesMcMillan said:

but still, how are u gonna be jealous of her twin sister?

if you want that closeness then be an understanding boyfriend..

Yes, I understand. Jealousy is not easily controlled, though. And he's not the first - nor the last - to transform this emotion into a song.

In this case I think it makes for a good song with universal appeal, for instance to people suffering from the same jealousy.

In lesser hands it might have turned into a too private look into a couple's troubles at the end of their relationship. And the song might have just been his part of their ongoing argument. And she in turn could have come up with a counter-song called "If you were just an understanding boyfriend then I wouldn't need no girlfriends".

The Camille persona was entirely too mean to have anything to do w/ real women. Prince is a nice guy most days, Camille aint. Funky as can possibly be, but stay clear.

ernestsewell said:

So today I get this email from a friend and fellow Prince fan, asking a very interesting question. I figured I'd put it to the Org and see if it rang true or not.

Time upon a once, I remember reading someones speculation that Prince's Camille character was possibly inspired by a historical character that was either androgynous or a transvestite - who had the same name. Does this ring your bell? I was interested in reading about that person again.

Thoughts?

Wasn't it that original online Q&A that had Prince giving that vague hint of affirmation? Back in the alt.music.prince days and the Love4OneAnother site... wow that was way back.

Check it out at the end of the transcript below:

YIL= Yahoo internet life

TA= Prince

YAHOO INTERNET LIFE * October 1997

Sites O' the Times

Artists have always been interested in
new technologies. DaVinci was.
Duchamp was. And the Artist is, too.

By Ben Greenman

In his early days, Prince was dismissed as a sensualist. Later on, when he started writing scriptural pop like Lovesexy and changed his name to an unpronounceable symbol, he was ridiculed as a spiritualist. All along the way, the Minneapolis multi-instrumentalist has been at once an avid consumer and a sharp critic of technology. The title song of 1999 fretted about nuclear weaponry, while the title song of Sign O' the Times mused on the folly of space travel in the wake of the Challenger disaster.

In recent years, the Artist has turned his attention toward interactive technologies, particularly the Internet. Last year's triple album Emancipation included two songs about cyberspace -- "Emale" and "My Computer," the latter of which sampled America Online's "Welcome," "You've got mail," and "Good-bye" sounds. The Love 4 One Another Web site launched this summer. And on the eve of his Jam of the Year tour, in mid-July, the Artist even drew more than 300,000 participants on an AOL chat. Because of his interest in the online medium, the Artist agreed to talk to Yahoo! Internet Life about his music, his fans, the future of the Internet, and even cybersex.

YIL: When did you first go online?

The Artist: I first went online alone 7 months ago, 2 the best of my recollection.

YIL: How often do you go online?

TA: When I am not on the road, maybe 3 or 4 times a week.

YIL: Are there any sites that you think are especially good?

TA: Love 4 One Another. I also like the news section on AOL.

YIL: Are there any sites that you think are especially bad?

TA: Bad is not a word I use unless I am describing a fine girl.

YIL: Do you visit the alt.music.prince newsgroup? If so, what do you think about it?

TA: I have seen it once or twice. It seems 2 just be a place 4 trading bootlegs.

YIL: Do you visit the fan Web sites devoted to your music? If so, what do you think about them?

TA: There are many I really dig. I'm really interested in getting all my friends 2gether on one site.

YIL: How do you feel about tape-trading and bootleg CDs? Have you ever bought a bootleg of one of your own performances?

TA: I understand their existence. But I don't agree with buying and selling stolen property. Trading isn't so despicable.

YIL: What about all the rumors, speculation, and criticism about you that circulates online? Is it amusing or annoying? For example, someone wrote to the newsgroup to complain that you always release the weakest songs from albums as singles.

TA: Opinion is how the world changes. That's cool, but lies and rumors don't deserve response. Also consider that any release of a single is only an advertisement 4 the album. And guess which 1 costs more?

YIL: On your newsgroup, some people have worried that the charity aspect of the Love 4 One Another site will be overwhelmed by the fandom aspect. Are you concerned about this?

TA: Not in the least bit. Negative souls are bored by things like charity. They obviously think the world revolves because of something other than love.

YIL: Why did you close your previous official site, The Dawn?

TA: Because without my involvement, the message was getting blurred. In my humble opinion, the dawn occurs when spiritual enlightenment takes place. When 1 learns of his or her relationship 2 everything on Earth and the universe. The new Web site will mirror the positive aspects of the dawn. In my rush 2 enlighten myself and others, I tried 2 "buffalo the vibe thru" when it was not ready. Love 4 One Another is the dawn.

YIL: Since you broke with Warner Bros., you've explored alternatives to traditional distribution. Do you have any plans to sell your music directly to consumers via the Net?

TA: Yes. NPG Records will sell as well as give away a lot of new and old music over the Internet in the not-too-distant future.

YIL: Will record labels eventually disappear?

TA: The writing is on the wall. Other souls were successful in their divide-and-conquer approach 4 a while. But now that we communicate with each other on a worldwide basis, the need 4 an "in4mation censor" is no longer a reality. The process of manufacturing and delivering music 2 a "friend" is not brain surgery.

YIL: On Emancipation, you wrote two songs about the Internet -- "Emale" and "My Computer." What was the inspiration for those songs?

TA: A man who unsuccessfully tried 2 "play me" was the catalyst 4 "Emale." I imagined his woman looking at her computer and being seduced by her "emale." "My Computer" was inspired by some of the insightful talks I have had with many positive people on the Net.

YIL: "Emale" is about cybersex. What do you think about cybersex? Have you ever done it?

TA: Ain't nothin' like the real thang.

YIL: In Graffiti Bridge, you use a Macintosh. Do you still use a Mac?

TA: My art department does. My wife owns an IBM. That's what I use.

YIL: Does "Computer Blue" have anything at all to do with computers?

TA: It may. That hasn't revealed itself yet.

YIL: What is the place of computer technology in composing new music?

TA: I try 2 let the song dictate its own direction. If one makes music with a computer, one has 2 be satisfied with the computer's limitations (and there are many, especially when it comes 2 music), though some songs only "sing" when programmed on a computer.

YIL: On the Interactive enhanced CD and The Gold Experience LP, there's a lot of talk about interactivity -- "over 500 experiences to choose from," etc. Have you ever thought about creating new types of music especially for the Internet-interactive environments, personalized songs, and so on?

TA: Yes. We are in discussion now 2 design a computer that can be a member of my band as well as interact with the audience. I have always been intrigued by the notion of being inside a computer.

YIL: OK, now for some final questions. If you were to write a theme song for the Internet, what would it be called, and what would it sound like?

TA: "New World."

YIL: The Net seems to attract lots of studio-obsessed musicians. Is surfing the Net at all like being in the studio?

TA: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no!

YIL: Do you think "Shockadelica" is your best song? If not, why not?

TA: "Shockadelica" is about a witch. "The Holy River" is about redemption. I am no judge.

YIL: What do you think about the Warner Bros. site?

TA: I never visit their site.

YIL: Most of the online search engines still have you listed as "Prince," rather than the androgyny symbol, "The Artist Formerly Known as Prince," or "The Artist." How do you feel about that?

TA: 2 each his own. I am a progressor. Some like the past. I don't mind.

YIL: This may sound nuts, but does the Camille alter ego, which you used on Sign O' the Times, have anything to do with the famous nineteenth-century hermaphrodite Herculine Barbin, who was nicknamed Camille? If so, my younger brother will be very, very happy, since he has spent roughly a decade trying to convince me of this.

TA: Your brother is very wise.

YIL: And finally, will you be online in 1999?

TA: In some form, yes.

Very cool. I didn't know Camille was inspired by an actual historical figure.

SuperFunk59 said:

robinhood said:

whats hermaphrodite? isnt she a greek goddess?

No, that would be Aphrodite.

hermaphroditus was a god who had bith the male and female sex organs.look at the name and you can tell it's parentage

hermes and aphrodite

khemseraph said:

SuperFunk59 said:

No, that would be Aphrodite.

hermaphroditus was a god who had bith the male and female sex organs.look at the name and you can tell it's parentage

hermes and aphrodite

yup. i think there's a Greek myth/story to explain it.

Bree8016 said:

Very cool. I didn't know Camille was inspired by an actual historical figure.

Prince didnt say whether or not Camille was inspired by Herculine, he simply said the brother was wise.

he may have just been blowing smoke up the guys ass.

RUHip2TheJive said:

khemseraph said:

hermaphroditus was a god who had bith the male and female sex organs.look at the name and you can tell it's parentage

hermes and aphrodite

yup. i think there's a Greek myth/story to explain it.

there is? wow i didnt know that

ernestsewell said:

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:

LOL, I just read what wikipedia has on this person....one of the things it said was when Herculine was still thought to be a woman, she fell in love with a fellow teacher and demanded to be the one to dress her!! sound familiar?

"If I was your girlfriend, would you let me dress you?"

I don't know, but this whole Camille thing, if it were inspired by this person, is all too disturbing for words!

Why is it disturbing? It's part of someone's human experience.

As far as the song, perhaps you are unaware of the fact that Prince wrote that to Susannah, because he was jealous of her relationship w/ her twin sister, knowing the closeness that twins have, and that he could never have w/ her.

I KNOW what inspired it! That has little to do with if Prince got the lyric from what he read about this person. And it IS disturbing to be inspired by such a person. Doesn't really make sense and is pretty creepy to me considering Prince's androgenous nature...

SuperFunk59 said:

robinhood said:

whats hermaphrodite? isnt she a greek goddess?

No, that would be Aphrodite.

Prince started out with a Aphrodite protege and has now ended up with a hermaphrodite protege. LOL.

I still don't believe that Prince was so hip to this kinda stuff that he made a project because of it.

There's nothing to suggest he was so into Herculine Barbin that he would do so. His answer to the 1997 interview is vague at best, simply complimentary.

More likely he came across the name in this context and used it for the project without knowing too much about the reference at all. He was into his own take on gender-fuck pop music, and the cap fit. It need be nothing more metaphysical than that.

To all accounts he didn't even know who Dorothy Parker was, so we're supposed to assume he was hip to some little known European hermaphrodite from the 19th Century?

NouveauDance said:

I still don't believe that Prince was so hip to this kinda stuff that he made a project because of it.

There's nothing to suggest he was so into Herculine Barbin that he would do so. His answer to the 1997 interview is vague at best, simply complimentary.

More likely he came across the name in this context and used it for the project without knowing too much about the reference at all. He was into his own take on gender-fuck pop music, and the cap fit. It need be nothing more metaphysical than that.

To all accounts he didn't even know who Dorothy Parker was, so we're supposed to assume he was hip to some little known European hermaphrodite from the 19th Century?

I dunno. I can see it happening. Fans tend to think in increments of albums/genres and Prince's life sort of lives and dies by studio call sheets and concert stubs, but it's entirely plausible that he explored various texts about sexual 'deviants' and notables in his huge amount of down time.

"TA: A man who unsuccessfully tried 2 "play me" was the catalyst 4 "Emale." I imagined his woman looking at her computer and being seduced by her "emale." "My Computer" was inspired by some of the insightful talks I have had with many positive people on the Net."

What in the world does this mean? A man pretending to be a woman tried to seduce Prince?

robinhood said:

Bree8016 said:

Very cool. I didn't know Camille was inspired by an actual historical figure.

Prince didnt say whether or not Camille was inspired by Herculine, he simply said the brother was wise.

he may have just been blowing smoke up the guys ass.

true... i don't know. it's an interesting possibility though.