cateto said:

It's not worth to repeat what has been posted by several people above, namely vitriol, vc40 and jasfunk. I fully agree with their points.

Why?

Because they say?

Because when it sounds similar to your ears on your set in your room it MUST be the same?

Unfortunately, such a prestige is vanished by now (for unknown reasons to me, as they could have continued working on their own stuff).

There goes the basis for the rest of the story.

And at this point, the "best" I could say is that Sabotage has become merely a luxury printing service for Prince fans who prefer pressed CDs instead of burning their own discs from the releases provided by fan labels. And this, I'm sorry to report, is more an insult than a compliment.

The fact that stuff is ALSO available on the net (sooner, nicer, better, etc etc etc) does not mean they work in a different manner. Maybe it just looks that way to you.

Back in the day before you were online stuff was harder to get, harder to find, etc. So they they were one of the few sources and thus part of the holy grail.

Now you just download, burn and/or transfer to teh ipod and some of us are happy that way.

I am not.

udo said:

cateto said:

It's not worth to repeat what has been posted by several people above, namely vitriol, vc40 and jasfunk. I fully agree with their points.

Why?

Because they say?

Because when it sounds similar to your ears on your set in your room it MUST be the same?

Because they are right; because they know actually what they are speaking about; and because this has happened in other previous occasions. That's why; you like it or not, but Sab and Eye have repeatedly ripped stuff released FOR FREE by fan labels, without any credit.

Unfortunately, such a prestige is vanished by now (for unknown reasons to me, as they could have continued working on their own stuff).

There goes the basis for the rest of the story.

The basis for the rest of which story? Sab did their job for a longtime and received respect from fans. Then switched to using, often, work made by others to a) make profit and b) without any credit to the people who did the recordings or the audio treatment. This led to the loss of their prestige, as hardcore fans are not stupid. There are still people who prefer pressed CDs of course, and thus their business will continue. But business is one thing; respect and prestige are another.

And at this point, the "best" I could say is that Sabotage has become merely a luxury printing service for Prince fans who prefer pressed CDs instead of burning their own discs from the releases provided by fan labels. And this, I'm sorry to report, is more an insult than a compliment.

The fact that stuff is ALSO available on the net (sooner, nicer, better, etc etc etc) does not mean they work in a different manner. Maybe it just looks that way to you.

Back in the day before you were online stuff was harder to get, harder to find, etc. So they they were one of the few sources and thus part of the holy grail.

Now you just download, burn and/or transfer to teh ipod and some of us are happy that way.

I am not.

I said above in this thread that Sab were, back in the day, a legend, and I stand by such statement. But that was then, this is now. Their holy grail is over.

Now there are fans doing a stunning job strictly for the love of music, putting it out there FOR FREE, with complete & professional content (audio or video and artwork), so that anybody can get the files, and then store them in whatever format: burn to CD/DVD, or store in HD, or put in portable players. And yes, most of us are very happy and feel very grateful to those fans who do the work and ask no money for it. From fans for fans, no money involved: strictly love for music. (Sorry for repeating myself, but some simple ideas like this one are frequently lost).

If you are not happy with this way, feel free to keep on buying pressed stuff. But times are changing and you won't make the time go backwards.

Oh, and in the (improbable) case that you don't know what fan labels are doing, try to get sets like "26" from 4DaFunk or "Le New Morning" from Free Boots Generation, and you will realize that their quality has NOTHING to envy from the best efforts from pressed labels, including Sab.

[Edited 9/7/10 3:39am]

cateto said: Because they are right; because they know actually what they are speaking about; and because this has happened in other previous occasions. That's why; you like it or not, but Sab and Eye have repeatedly ripped stuff released FOR FREE by fan labels, without any credit. So it is a 'good standing' versus 'bad standing' thing? Not just fact versus rumours, heresay and fantasy? I've read enough about taht methodology.

cateto said:

I said above in this thread that Sab were, back in the day, a legend, and I stand by such statement. But that was then, this is now. Their holy grail is over.

Then put your finger on what is missing now from SAB and not what has changed outside of SAB.

Repeat same sentence for Thunderball, Moonraker, Eye, Optimum, etc.

Please explain.

Oh, and in the (improbable) case that you don't know what fan labels are doing, try to get sets like "26" from 4DaFunk or "Le New Morning" from Free Boots Generation, and you will realize that their quality has NOTHING to envy from the best efforts from pressed labels, including Sab.

In that case it's a pity (for me...) that these recordings are not on a pressed disc.

But let's listen when more stuff becomes available.

And then remember what hard work went into obtaining such results (not by a 'label' but by the guy/gal that did the recording).

udo said:

Then put your finger on what is missing now from SAB and not what has changed outside of SAB. Repeat same sentence for Thunderball, Moonraker, Eye, Optimum, etc. Please explain.

There have been more than enough explanations given, in this thread and elsewhere; yet you won't understand if you don't want to understand, which seems to be the case.

Oh, and in the (improbable) case that you don't know what fan labels are doing, try to get sets like "26" from 4DaFunk or "Le New Morning" from Free Boots Generation, and you will realize that their quality has NOTHING to envy from the best efforts from pressed labels, including Sab. In that case it's a pity (for me...) that these recordings are not on a pressed disc.

Why is it a pity? You can get the files, burn the CDs and print the artwork, just as anybody else. And you won't be able to make the difference, when listening the music or watching the artwork.

But let's listen when more stuff becomes available. And then remember what hard work went into obtaining such results (not by a 'label' but by the guy/gal that did the recording).

I am well aware of the work made by tapers, and also by people working with the audio/video files, prior to release. And I am very grateful, I posted loads of times repeating my thanks, in HQ and other places.

I'm guessing that Sabotage -after loads of hard work tracking down the sources and doing a superb tweaking with the sweat of their brows, of course- will end up releasing new versions of, f ex, the Birthday 84 gig or The Bird Rehearsal... Let's just wait and see.

Needless to say, this will have nothing to do with 4DF and FBG putting out superb new versions of those recordings recently.

Or maybe 4DF's and FBG's stunning sets (in all aspects) are just 'leaked versions of the Sabotage soon-to-be-released new masters'?

I just missed a post above in this thread where LOGIC wrote this:

And withCL-R, SAB certainly managed to let the free fraternity look pale.

Hum, this is strange, as during the last years, it was the pay-me fraternity which looked pale to me: Besides the City Lights example, we had, to name a very prominent case, the Palace Lovesexy aftershow, among many othes... did it also make pale the free fraternity? You release a pressed set of so-so audio quality, then you get a new, fantastic, fan-released version and damn, you've got to put new versions to "compensate" your customers.

Shall I go to speak about Box O Chocolates? Maybe that set was also was making the free fraternity look pale? Or maybe it was the most impressive studio release in YEARS?? And... was it released by Sab or Eye, or maybe did it come from FBG?

Just so a few people here can refresh their fragile memories.

[Edited 9/7/10 8:12am]

I don't want to burn my stuff, wasn't that clear yet?

What do heaps of cd-r's look like? Even after using overly expensive inkjet ink.

And no, the explanations were very unfactual. More like opinion. Not scientific at all. More like rumour, heresay, opinion, etc.

Udo, I guess you have heard before about watermarks, right? They are useful to track down leaks, for instance when a DVD passed along to a member of the cinema academy does leak his personal DVD to the internet. This has been reported in the past.

Well, I can tell you for a fact that some people involved in the treatment of the audio files can very easily track down how some of the edits they have personally done to some audio files, were directly transferred into releases made later by pressed labels. Those very specific edits could be considered as "watermarks", making very simple to identify the source of some sets. This is not rumour, hearsay, opinion: it is a FACT. They are 100 % sure that the material they released has been directly ripped off for some pressed releases.

End of story.

And if you plan to ask me now "please post evidence", let me reply in advance that it is up to you to verify, since it is people like you who say that such ripping off is false.

Specific and deliberate edits made on a recording are extremely difficult to duplicate. Especially if you are good at what you do. Anyone person who has spent a long time on a recording will immediately be able to recognise his own editing. As Cateto said, it's almost a kind of 'watermark'.

Some people even have a style to it which adds to the ease of detecting them...I've even been known to add the odd 'deiberate' edit so I can identify my own stuff at a later time.

THAT is why the likes of 4DF can easily determine the source of the recordings, regardless of any further audio treatment done on the sources.

udo said:

And no, the explanations were very unfactual. More like opinion. Not scientific at all. More like rumour, heresay, opinion, etc.

So, you keep thinking that the people posting here are idiots, right?

And WHERE, WHERE ART THOU FACTS...? Let me ask. I can only see utter bullshit.

[Edited 9/7/10 9:11am]

udo said:

I don't want to burn my stuff, wasn't that clear yet?

What do heaps of cd-r's look like? Even after using overly expensive inkjet ink.

1) You're not FORCED to burn anything.

2) I thought you were interested in bootlegs because of the MUSIC instead of what 'a heap of CDrs look like'.

I guess these are you 'scientific facts'.

BTW, I see you didn't respond to my observation about Sab possibly releasing a new version of June 7th 84 and/or The Bird Rehearsal... what was it? no guts or something?

udo said:

I don't want to burn my stuff, wasn't that clear yet?

What do heaps of cd-r's look like? Even after using overly expensive inkjet ink.

And no, the explanations were very unfactual. More like opinion. Not scientific at all. More like rumour, heresay, opinion, etc.

such stupid reasoning

what is the difference between a home burned cd and a pressed one ?

is a pressed cd any better ?

how so ?

do you feel better because you knowingly get ripped off

it's the content that matters , not some label's name on a booklet

(that being said i do enjoy pressed cd's sometimes , however not when they are ripping off free releases)

furthermore;

why would you dispute the fact that Sabotage have ripped off fan releases by releasing THE SAME shit after numerous people have stated that

what is your problem ?

do you work for Sabotage or something ?

[Edited 9/7/10 10:48am]

vitriol said:

udo said:

And no, the explanations were very unfactual. More like opinion. Not scientific at all. More like rumour, heresay, opinion, etc.

So, you keep thinking that the people posting here are idiots, right?

And WHERE, WHERE ART THOU FACTS...? Let me ask. I can only see utter bullshit.

Of course you have to use strong language, but yes, I do think they are wrong.
Facts?
Guilty until proven innocent?
Sigh.

Stuff is different until proven to be the same.
No proof of being the same: different.

vitriol said:

udo said:

I don't want to burn my stuff, wasn't that clear yet?

What do heaps of cd-r's look like? Even after using overly expensive inkjet ink.

1) You're not FORCED to burn anything.

2) I thought you were interested in bootlegs because of the MUSIC instead of what 'a heap of CDrs look like'.

I guess these are you 'scientific facts'.

BTW, I see you didn't respond to my observation about Sab possibly releasing a new version of June 7th 84 and/or The Bird Rehearsal... what was it? no guts or something?

1) you are not forced to buy anything.
Yet you spew acid onto anybody that considers buying stuff a fair deal. Yes, that is what you do.
2) astethics and other aspects stretch beyond the music.
If your reality is different you'll have to help yourself here as I am affraid that I can't do that.
3) What exactly is the 'observation'?
Fact? Heresay? Prediction? And what is the relation to your previosu claims? If A is true then B must be true as well?

Dewrede said:

udo said:

I don't want to burn my stuff, wasn't that clear yet?

What do heaps of cd-r's look like? Even after using overly expensive inkjet ink.

And no, the explanations were very unfactual. More like opinion. Not scientific at all. More like rumour, heresay, opinion, etc.

such stupid reasoning

what is the difference between a home burned cd and a pressed one ?

is a pressed cd any better ?

how so ?

do you feel better because you knowingly get ripped off

it's the content that matters , not some label's name on a booklet

(that being said i do enjoy pressed cd's sometimes , however not when they are ripping off free releases)

furthermore;

why would you dispute the fact that Sabotage have ripped off fan releases by releasing THE SAME shit after numerous people have stated that

what is your problem ?

do you work for Sabotage or something ?

If you do not know abou the difference between a pressed CD and a burned CD I need to rest this case.
I did not get ripped off. You feel that way, judging the things your write, even though you did not buy stuff. Isn't that weird?
Yes, the content matters. I did not say otherwise. Nor implied otherwise. Let the best stuff be released, be pressed. (and see this apart from the rip-issue, please)
Why do I need to dispute stuff that other people say?
What is their case? Their source? Their proof?
Did they investigate themselves? Or are they just repeating others because they thought they were reputable, trustworthy in the past?

Do you work for one of the many free labels?
Don't you see that ethics work in multiple directions?
You just see the rip-case.
But it is also about innocent until proven guilty.

And about a proper case.

And absence of prejudice.

If we cannot get into that direction and only see that when someone argues not into our direction that they must be part of the enemy, then, my friend, you must review some of the Bush speeches. For starters.

Maybe some Schopenhauer reading can help, too.

Yes, I am serious. We need some background, really

udo said:

Yes, I am serious.

That's what frightens me the most. You actually seem to believe your own bollocks....

LOL!

Udo u didn't reply to my question.. Now how would that "proof" u'r always talking about look like?

If you knew a bit about boots and legs you would understand that this thread contains some massive evidence. But you fail to see that obviously. So how would some proper evidence look like technically? Thx.

udo said:

Dewrede said:

such stupid reasoning

what is the difference between a home burned cd and a pressed one ?

is a pressed cd any better ?

how so ?

do you feel better because you knowingly get ripped off

it's the content that matters , not some label's name on a booklet

(that being said i do enjoy pressed cd's sometimes , however not when they are ripping off free releases)

furthermore;

why would you dispute the fact that Sabotage have ripped off fan releases by releasing THE SAME shit after numerous people have stated that

what is your problem ?

do you work for Sabotage or something ?

If you do not know abou the difference between a pressed CD and a burned CD I need to rest this case.
I did not get ripped off. You feel that way, judging the things your write, even though you did not buy stuff. Isn't that weird?
Yes, the content matters. I did not say otherwise. Nor implied otherwise. Let the best stuff be released, be pressed. (and see this apart from the rip-issue, please)
Why do I need to dispute stuff that other people say?
What is their case? Their source? Their proof?
Did they investigate themselves? Or are they just repeating others because they thought they were reputable, trustworthy in the past?

Do you work for one of the many free labels?
Don't you see that ethics work in multiple directions?
You just see the rip-case.
But it is also about innocent until proven guilty.

And about a proper case.

And absence of prejudice.

If we cannot get into that direction and only see that when someone argues not into our direction that they must be part of the enemy, then, my friend, you must review some of the Bush speeches. For starters.

Maybe some Schopenhauer reading can help, too.

Yes, I am serious. We need some background, really

I should just stay out of this, but....

This is really 2 different arguments:

1) Does or does not, Sabotage take the work of free labels, press discs and sell them without giving credit to the labels that put a lot of work into cleaning up recordings and then give them away for free.

2) Is it a rip off to buy Sab's releases when the free label version (and even Sab's version) are available to download and burn (or load into a portable player).

As to the first issue, it has already been clearly demonstrated that Sab (& other bootleg labels) have in fact for the past several years pressed and sold material that free labels had cleaned up and released for free. They have done so without offering any credit to the source. This has been well documented many times concerning many releases. It has been proven, do the research.

That said... so fuggin' what?!? Bootleg labels have done this from the beginning. EVERY bootleg label has done and will do this. It's standard operating practice. Sometimes they have a better source, sometimes they clean it up better than previous releases, sometimes it's more complete than previous releases and sometimes there is no difference at all. Sometimes they lift directly from other bootlegs, slap their own label on it, and release it. To expect those that sell an artist's recordings without compensating the artist would have the ethics to credit their sources is just not realistic.

If you choose to ignore the facts, the research and comparisons done by others, and the general consensus of the fans, that's fine, whatever. But, to make the argument that they don't do this or that it hasn't been proven? You should expect to be ripped apart... it's a ludicrous claim.

As to the second issue, although it's certainly interesting to discuss and debate whether or not buying pressed cd versions of bootlegs that are freely available to download (and I'm not just talking about the original free version being available, the pay label versions become available for free immediately as well) is worth the money, ultimately it's just opinions. There is no single right or wrong answer to this one, therefore no reason to get your panties in a wad arguing which is right when there can be no right to opinions.

A pressed disc will last longer than a cd-r.

Without spending a fortune on ink and high quality paper, printing covers is not as nice as the glossy booklets that often come with pressed bootlegs.

These are facts.

Free bootlegs sound as good as pressed bootlegs.

Because of the illegal nature, and in comparison to legal CD releases, pressed bootlegs are overpriced and therefore excessively expenisive.

These are facts.

The discussions lie in preferences and opinions.

Some people aren't tech savy enough to download or don't have time to burn & print. Some enjoy collecting pressed boots.

Some people can't afford pressed boots but know where to download them and how to burn them. Some don't want to support labels that make $ off the artists they love or take credit for the work done by free labels as a labor of love by fans for fans.

Debating these preferences can be fun precisely because there is no right or wrong.

Mixing these issues into one argument, and in fact switching back and forth between them, avoids any true debate and makes for a frustrating discussion.

Most Prince fans that collect bootlegs and frequent this site are well aware of the facts of the first issue. Disputing those facts without acknowledging the well discussed history of the last several years is like begging to be flamed. Adding to that the unpopular opinions of the second issue pours gas on those flames.

If you want to argue that Sab does not take the work of free labels (or even other pay labels), press it and sell it without credit, everyone will assume you work for Sab and flame you.

If you want to argue about whether it's worth it to collect pressed boots, you'll still find more who disagree than agree, but at least you won't be wrong.

Udo, I can understand your (and LOGIC's) desperation for selling.

But, trust me, you seriously need a shrink.

'DJThunderfunk has put across a great response but I'm beginning to see that Udo is one of those narrow minded, stubborn people who reads what he wants to reads, likes the 'sound' of his own voice and will not be told whatever anyone says.

Udo, for the last time, I've given you the 'facts' and that is indisputable (I see you chose to ignore my previous comment containing this info). Short of demonstrating this to you in person there is nothing more that needs to be said. We've done our bit.

What I find most interesting is that you are guilty of exactly what you accuse others here of doing. All you have said is 'they don't' yet you have offered no proof that they don't? Just because you say it isn't true, doesn't make that any more a 'FACT', so where's your 'PROOF', hey?

[Edited 9/8/10 1:18am]

Flaunt said:

I see you chose to ignore my previous comment

Same with my comment about the possibility of Sab releasing Jun 7th 84 and The Bird Rehearsal anytime soon JUST BECAUSE 4DF and FBG have put out new astounding sources.

He seems to have a very selective attention span: he gets blind when it's convenient for him and then miraculously recovers his sight when it's also convenient for him.

vc40 said:

udo said:

Yes, I am serious.

That's what frightens me the most. You actually seem to believe your own bollocks....

You are erring away from the topic by taking stuff into personal directions.

FunkyDissCo said:

LOL!

Udo u didn't reply to my question.. Now how would that "proof" u'r always talking about look like?

If you knew a bit about boots and legs you would understand that this thread contains some massive evidence. But you fail to see that obviously. So how would some proper evidence look like technically? Thx.

You ask me about proof?
Who says that A = B?
So who must come uop with proof?
But let me give you the first thing that comes to mind: do some spectrum analisys. Take small sections (same timings) of each recording you want to compare and see what they sound like.
Because you are so certain that they are different I believe you must have a much better method.

vitriol said:

Udo, I can understand your (and LOGIC's) desperation for selling.

But, trust me, you seriously need a shrink.

Thanks, but you too are erring away from the topic by taking stuff into personal directions.

Whatever.

I'm still waiting for your "scientific facts".

You posted a lot of bullshit but you haven't shown your cards yet. So... give a proof that Sab didn't rip of fan releases or shut up.

And, for the 3rd time, have the balls to answer my observation about Sab possibly releasing 7.7.84 or The Bird Rehearsal. Don't smear in your own shit, speak clearly. For once.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand, we haven't really started discussing Vol.4 in earnest.

I guess that one is not a rip of two FGB Releases... as well.

vitriol said:

Whatever.

I'm still waiting for your "scientific facts".

You posted a lot of bullshit but you haven't shown your cards yet. So... give a proof that Sab didn't rip of fan releases or shut up.

And, for the 3rd time, have the balls to answer my observation about Sab possibly releasing 7.7.84 or The Bird Rehearsal. Don't smear in your own shit, speak clearly. For once.

So, you made a claim and when someone tells you to prove your claim you retort by asking them to prove it's NOT the way you say it is?

That's not how it works. If you are so sure that something exists a certain way, at least be able to have examples to point to rather than just bullying the guy into thinking the way you do.

Funny that you want to play the lawyer.

I won't bother answering you, I'm sorry.

Stick to your Sabotage treasures, I'll stick to what Sabotage will release next (i.e. the forthcoming releases from FBG and 4DF).

Wow, that "proof" discussion is so far off i can't find any words. Oh, wait, i just found some.

See, there are free labels. They release cool stuff every month. In most cases, you can count down from 10 to see either Eye or Sab or both release the same shows with "never seen before glossy booklets" and stuff. It was different back then, but that's how it is now, and that's a shame.

Maybe they take the free stuff, turn the (volume/bass/treble) (up/down) a bit and then press it. Maybe they don't even do this. Fact is they rip the stuff which was (and still is) available for free.

DO YOU REALLY THINK THEY HAVE USED THEIR OWN SOURCES FOR ANY OF THESE RELEASES? REALLY? "Oh wow, that's dull..."

EVERYBODY who's following the bootleg "market" can see that. Everybody knows it, and yes, people can have different opinions on that. But then, there is that little website called Prince.org, and on Prince.org there is that little frustrated troll named Udo asking for "proof proof proof" like a broken record. It's like you say "the sky is blue" and i come and answer "no it's red, unless you give me some proof". Yes, innocent until proven guilty, of course! But there's stuff that's so obvious it don't need no proof except for the blind, deaf and unwilling to acknowledge.

You're making a major clown of yourself that way. Sorry.

It would be cool to see & hear soon real new unreleased studio songs circulating ???

PS>Maybe some insiders can give us some hopes?

[Edited 9/9/10 5:39am]