For years I've been looking for a term that will help me better identify Prince's slow songs that do not fit the definition of R&B/Soul. I usually call them "whimsical" songs. The problem is that "whimsical" is not really a musical genre, but I don't know into what genre to put certain songs. And even if I go with jazzy or jazz feel, that would not account for all of the Prince ballads that fall outside the definition of R&B/Soul. Furthermore, I can call them ballads, but ballad can refer to all slowly syncopated songs, including standard R&B/Soul songs, can it not? So, tell me if the songs listed below can be considered R&B/Soul songs or if they should be considered something else. Additionally, if they should be considered something other than R&B/Soul, what genre or category would you define it as being?

As a final note, the term Rhythm and Blues (R&B) became an official music category to sell records in the fifties as a way to distinguish black artists from white artists. Most everyone knew it was an arbitrary definition. Monday night black artists went to bed being rock-n-roll artists and awoke on Tuesday morning as R&B artists. As Little Richard continues to state, "R&B doesn't mean rhythm and blues; it means real black." So, my goal is not to say that every song can be perfectly placed in a specifically defined genre. I'm just looking for a way to label or define certain songs when I'm discussing them. And I know that someone will say, "They should be labled as 'good'." But calling them good doesn't help defined what "type" or "form" of good they are.

Of course, a final question is what were ballads by whites called prior to the creation of R&B as a genre? And maybe that's a main point that causes the confusion because most current musical genres, especially the genres we use to track record sales, are based on the combination of the race of the artists, the race of the patrons, and musical arrangement. And because the first two elements are arbitrary or limiting, then our labels will always be arbitrary and limiting. So, with all of that said, it may seem useless to have you all tell me what genre you all think best defines these songs, but it might be an interesting exercise in how our various backgrounds cause us to define things. For instance, someone with an Africentric upbringing perceives a zebra as a black horse with white stripes. However, someone with a Eurocentric upbringing perceives a zebra as a white horse with black stripes. Thus, I also want to see how our cultural and musical lens cause us to categorize the following songs. There is no right or wrong. This is just an exercise in how Prince's freedom and daringness forces all of us to re-adress and redefine what was previously thought as needing no additional explanation because it was set in stone.

"Condition of the Heart"

"Do U Lie?"

"I Wonder U"

"Under the Cherry Moon"

"Sometimes It Snows in April"

"Positivity"

"Joy In Repetition"

"Still Would Stand All Time" (Live Prince delivers it like a gospel tune, but what about the record?)

"Lemon Crush"

"The Arms of Orion"

"I Love You in Me"

"Sweet Baby"

"Gold" (I think this is a rock ballad boarding on the light rock of the 70s, but let me know.)

"Solo"

"Holy River"

"Empty Room" (Live it is played like an 80s power rock ballad, but, again, y'all let me know.)

"One Song" (I love this song, but I can't categorize it)

"Tangerine"

"I Love U, But I Don't Trust You Anymore"

"Te Amo Corazon"

"Somewhere Here on Earth" (More than likely a jazz/soul tune, but I'm not sure)

"A Million Days" (Power rock ballad, but not sure)

"Here"

"Better with Time"

"U're Gonna C Me"

"Here"

"Walk in Sand"

"Sea of Everything"

"Condition of the Heart" - no, pop

"Do U Lie?" - no, pop

"I Wonder U" - no, pop

"Under the Cherry Moon" - no, pop ballad with blues/rock tinges

"Sometimes It Snows in April" - no, acoustic pop

"Positivity" - yes

"Joy In Repetition" - no, blues/rock

"Still Would Stand All Time" - no, gospel

"Lemon Crush" - no, funk

"The Arms of Orion" - no, pop

"I Love You in Me" - R&B

"Sweet Baby" - R&B

"Gold" - no, rock

"Solo" - no, i'd say blues

"Holy River" - this is close, but it also is firmly rooted in rock/pop

"Empty Room" - no, rock

"One Song" - i haven't heard this song enough to know

"Tangerine" - no, rock/pop (and that's assuming you mean the full version w/ electric solo)

"I Love U, But I Don't Trust You Anymore" - no, acoustic pop

"Te Amo Corazon" - R&B

"Somewhere Here on Earth" - yes

"A Million Days" - closer to the rock/r&b fusion stuff he does (which i guess toes the line of Pop)

"Here" - R&B

"Better with Time" - no, pop

"U're Gonna C Me" - R&B

"Here" - R&B still!!

"Walk in Sand" - R&B

"Sea of Everything" - R&B

Spinlight said:

"Do U Lie?" - no, pop

"Still Would Stand All Time" - no, gospel

"Te Amo Corazon" - R&B

"Walk in Sand" - R&B

"Sea of Everything" - R&B

Thanks for your answers. And, I have four questions.

Is pop a genre or does pop mean it sells or will likely sell to more people. For instance, Country, R&B/Soul, Jazz, Blues, Rock, Gospel, Classical, Funk, and Rap/Hip Hop are all genres. And depending on how many units a song based in one of these genres sells, it will be come or "go" pop. So, can we call pop a genre or is simply the name we give to any work that sells a certain amount of units? Thus, if we check the popular music charts for the past eighty years, we will find, of course, that as certain types of genres became more or less "popular" then other types of genres would be found on the list of "popular selling" songs.

I agree that when Prince performs "Still Would Stand All Time" live it is clearly a gospel arrangement or delivery. But, does the studio version include enough of the traditional gospel chords and progressions to be labeled as gospel?

What is it that makes "Te Amo Corazon," "Walk in Sand," and "Sea of Everything," R&B?

And, finally, this question is similar to the third. I have always felt that "Do U Lie" is a classically brilliant Prince song because it mixes genres so seamlessly that it becomes almost indefinable. I will accept that Prince's vocal delivery is R&B, which is a result of being jazzy/bluesy. But his delivery of his vocals also seem to have a jazz sensibility because he is not being quite harmonious with the music but using the music, especially the organ/stings/keys as a starting point from which he can diverge and return at will. And, of course, his impeccable timing and rhythm allows his vocals to navigate and dance the scale of the composition like a graceful figure skater or like Michael Jackson or Fred Astaire danced.

Pop is either popular or mainstream.

Honestly, my genre designation for all of Prince's music is Prince. While some of his music falls within some pattern that allows it to be categorized, much, possibly most, of his compositions display an ambiguity that I feel uncomfortable attempting to place in a box.

Timmy84 said:

Pop is either popular or mainstream.

Yes, but the terms "popular" and "mainstream" are not genres that are differentiated from another form of music by its construction; these terms relate more to sells or sell-ability not the form or construct of the the actual songs that are being discussed or sold. B. B. King was once "pop." Miles Davis was once "pop." Elvis Presley was once "pop." NWA was once "pop." But their "pop" label or status was about how many units they sold, not about the construct or arrangement of their music.

1725topp said:

Timmy84 said:

Pop is either popular or mainstream.

Yes, but the terms "popular" and "mainstream" are not genres that are differentiated from another form of music by its construction; these terms relate more to sells or sell-ability not the form or construct of the the actual songs that are being discussed or sold. B. B. King was once "pop." Miles Davis was once "pop." Elvis Presley was once "pop." NWA was once "pop." But their "pop" label or status was about how many units they sold, not about the construct or arrangement of their music.

That's why it's called what's it's called. In other forms, it's usually ballads that are so radio-friendly radio can't help but play them or something very upbeat.

That said I think it's as unfair a label as R&B, country, soul, funk, etc. Funk is an attitude, soul is an euphemism for feeling, R&B (real black)... to me it's all music.

KevinLucyMe said:

Honestly, my genre designation for all of Prince's music is Prince. While some of his music falls within some pattern that allows it to be categorized, much, possibly most, of his compositions display an ambiguity that I feel uncomfortable attempting to place in a box.

I understand what you are saying and would agree if I was having another type of conversation. But for this conversation, even to call what Prince creates "Prince" music would mean to be able to explain how or in what specific ways is Prince using his genius to combine varying forms to create that style that you have identified as "Prince Music." This is not about me wanting to place Prince in a box. This is more about me wanting to create language that attempts to empirically explore what Prince is doing when he is being that "hybrid thing" that draws so many of us to him.

Timmy84 said:

That said I think it's as unfair a label as R&B, country, soul, funk, etc. Funk is an attitude, soul is an euphemism for feeling, R&B (real black)... to me it's all music.

First, calling it "radio friendly" still does not define it as a particular genre. And I'm having a discussion about what makes a genre a genre by discussing what causes or allows a song to be labeled as a particular genre. And, I'll reference my first post when I said that I know there is no song that perfectly fits into a particular category for everyone, but there are specific physical, measureable musical attributes or elements that a song can have that will cause many people to say that the song is R&B or Rock or Jazz based on the elements that people have accepted, even modified, over time to define a particular genre.

Your second statement makes it clear that we are having two different conversations. And, I'm not being flippant, but the goal of this thread is not to debate whether or not genres exist or are necessary or whether they are limiting or put people in a box. The goal of this thread is to explore what Prince is doing, musically and vocally, when he is breaking all of the genre barriers. And so as not to be too redundant, I'll just post the next paragraph what I answered to someone else.

I understand what you are saying and would agree if I was having another type of conversation. But for this conversation, even to call what Prince creates "Prince" music would mean to be able to explain how or in what specific ways is Prince using his genius to combine varying forms to create that style that you have identified as "Prince Music." This is not about me wanting to place Prince in a box. This is more about me wanting to create language that attempts to empirically explore what Prince is doing when he is being that "hybrid thing" that draws so many of us to him.

It's music lol no one's trying to put Prince in a box least I'm not lol

Timmy84 said:

It's music lol no one's trying to put Prince in a box least I'm not lol

There are actual definitions for each genre and what makes each genre a genre. Pop music is its own genre because there's a list of things that qualify something as pop music. While pop music was first named pop, short for popular, there were real reasons for that! The genre pop music came about upwards of 80 years ago, differentiating it from other genres at the time.

It's pop because pop is a legitimate genre of music since about the '20s. Pop music isn't just music which hits the pop charts. "Do U Lie?" is a perfect example of a pop song because it pulls from various types of music (from R&B to Waltz). You could call "Do U Lie?" a pop song, but to relegate it to simply an R&B song ignores elements of the song that liken it to its various inspirational sources.

"Te Amo Corazon", specifically, has an R&B rhythmic section. Let not the spanish lyrics seduce you - while one might want to give it a calypso inspiration, strip the vocals from the song and listen to the music. This would be an R&B song with typical R&B transitions and a typically R&B melody. "Walk in Sand" and "Sea of Everything" both exemplify R&B rhythmic and melodic tendencies. Typically, I listen to the bass first and the vocals 2nd. "Walk In Sand" could be called a pop song, I guess, because of its facile nature and the fact its a dopey love song with no real musical ambition or complexity, but its roots are firmly based in R&B and my ears don't detect any other genres of music that could be applied to it. Same with "Sea of Everything", but even moreso. That's so R&B it hurts.

Prince does often work really with with anti-melodic structures in his songs. I think it was best described when talking about putting the strings from Clare Fisher on the Parade album and how the strings seemed to work in tandem with but sonically opposite of the melody of the song. I don't think that is a purely jazz thing, I would say its something firmly based in traditional soul music that was then borrowed by rock music that was then woven into pop music. While his vocal delivery might seem ambiguous in the songs you listed, I think that the music tells the story moreso than his choice in vocal arrangement.

Timmy84 said:

It's music lol no one's trying to put Prince in a box least I'm not lol

No, my bad. I thought you were saying that my question/thread was trying to put Prince in a box. My misunderstanding.

Spinlight said:

There are actual definitions for each genre and what makes each genre a genre. Pop music is its own genre because there's a list of things that qualify something as pop music. While pop music was first named pop, short for popular, there were real reasons for that! The genre pop music came about upwards of 80 years ago, differentiating it from other genres at the time.

It's pop because pop is a legitimate genre of music since about the '20s. Pop music isn't just music which hits the pop charts. "Do U Lie?" is a perfect example of a pop song because it pulls from various types of music (from R&B to Waltz). You could call "Do U Lie?" a pop song, but to relegate it to simply an R&B song ignores elements of the song that liken it to its various inspirational sources.

"Te Amo Corazon", specifically, has an R&B rhythmic section. Let not the spanish lyrics seduce you - while one might want to give it a calypso inspiration, strip the vocals from the song and listen to the music. This would be an R&B song with typical R&B transitions anda typically R&B melody. "Walk in Sand" and "Sea of Everything" both exemplify R&B rhythmic and melodic tendencies. Typically, I listen to the bass first and the vocals 2nd. "Walk In Sand" could be called a pop song, I guess, because of its facile nature and the fact its a dopey love song with no real musical ambition or complexity, but its roots are firmly based in R&B and my ears don't detect any other genres of music that could be applied to it. Same with "Sea of Everything", but even moreso. That's so R&B it hurts.

Prince does often work really with with anti-melodic structures in his songs. I think it was best described when talking about putting the strings from Clare Fisher on the Parade album and how the strings seemed to work in tandem with but sonically opposite of the melody of the song. I don't think that is a purely jazz thing, I would say its something firmly based in traditional soul music that was then borrowed by rock music that was then woven into pop music. While his vocal delivery might seem ambiguous in the songs you listed, I think that the music tells the story moreso than his choice in vocal arrangement.

Now, we're talking. I love the responses of your last two paragraphs. I have no disputes with them, and they expand my knowledge of reading/interpreting genre.

For the first two paragraphs, excluding the very sold discussion of "Do U Lie?", I'm still not sold on pop being an actual genre. I hear what you are saying about songs mixing or combining various chords, progressions, melodies, and harmonies, but unless you are saying that pop, as a genre, is defined by the mere mixing of elements from various genres, then that still does not give us a certain "set" principles or elements that define a specific or particular genre or sound. For instance, a chocolate cake anda fudge brownie have, essentially, the same elements, but varying proportions of the ingredients as well as the lack of an ingredient is what differentiates a cake from a brownie. Additionally, sticking to the rigid discussion of genre as a set or defined/prescribed equation/formula, we know how to produce a cake or a brownie on demand by utilizing a certain, specific recipe/equation/formula. And the same is true of genres, such as blues, jazz, rock, funk, R&B/soul, and classical. Musicians know what three or four elements are needed to produce those particular sounds or genres. Whereas if we say that pop, as a genre, is a mixing of various types of music, the problem with that definition is that we will not get the same sound in the manner that we know the equation/formula needed to produce a blues sound, a funk sound, a jazz sound, a rock sound, a R&B/Soul sound, a gospel sound, or a classical sound. And I'm not saying that there will not be gradations of each sound, but that is more about the subset or subcategory of each sound because even the gradations of each sound will have the two or three elements needed to compose or define each sound.

For instance, I know that Ricky Martin's "Livin' la Vida Loca" is not just pure Latin, but it is a mix of American rock and soul to produce, as you say, a "pop" or "popular" sound that a lot of people would like. However, Prince's "Let's Go Crazy" uses the same procedure of taking various genres, rock-n-roll and cutting hit (lessening the edge of rock) with keyboards and a swing so that it becomes palatable to more people, but it is still a different "sound" than " Livin' la Vida Loca." Both are popular because they are enjoyed by a wide variety of people, but they are not the same type of sounding song. (The same can be said for Prince's "Delirious" and "Horny Toad," which are both various on 50s rock but are given a more aggressive/hard edge with the new wave sounding keyboards and Prince's soulful vocal delivery, which introduces Teddy Pendergrass to Little Richard and Elvis Presley). Or maybe I'm just not hearing how "Living Lavita Loca" does sound like "Let's Go Crazy" or how a gangsta rap song by Dr. Dre and Snoop Dog has the same sound as "Let's Go Crazy" and " Livin' la Vida Loca," which is what your working definition of pop will have us assume. Again, I may be misinterpreting.

1725topp said:

Spinlight said:

There are actual definitions for each genre and what makes each genre a genre. Pop music is its own genre because there's a list of things that qualify something as pop music. While pop music was first named pop, short for popular, there were real reasons for that! The genre pop music came about upwards of 80 years ago, differentiating it from other genres at the time.

It's pop because pop is a legitimate genre of music since about the '20s. Pop music isn't just music which hits the pop charts. "Do U Lie?" is a perfect example of a pop song because it pulls from various types of music (from R&B to Waltz). You could call "Do U Lie?" a pop song, but to relegate it to simply an R&B song ignores elements of the song that liken it to its various inspirational sources.

"Te Amo Corazon", specifically, has an R&B rhythmic section. Let not the spanish lyrics seduce you - while one might want to give it a calypso inspiration, strip the vocals from the song and listen to the music. This would be an R&B song with typical R&B transitions anda typically R&B melody. "Walk in Sand" and "Sea of Everything" both exemplify R&B rhythmic and melodic tendencies. Typically, I listen to the bass first and the vocals 2nd. "Walk In Sand" could be called a pop song, I guess, because of its facile nature and the fact its a dopey love song with no real musical ambition or complexity, but its roots are firmly based in R&B and my ears don't detect any other genres of music that could be applied to it. Same with "Sea of Everything", but even moreso. That's so R&B it hurts.

Prince does often work really with with anti-melodic structures in his songs. I think it was best described when talking about putting the strings from Clare Fisher on the Parade album and how the strings seemed to work in tandem with but sonically opposite of the melody of the song. I don't think that is a purely jazz thing, I would say its something firmly based in traditional soul music that was then borrowed by rock music that was then woven into pop music. While his vocal delivery might seem ambiguous in the songs you listed, I think that the music tells the story moreso than his choice in vocal arrangement.

Now, we're talking. I love the responses of your last two paragraphs. I have no disputes with them, and they expand my knowledge of reading/interpreting genre.

For the first two paragraphs, excluding the very sold discussion of "Do U Lie?", I'm still not sold on pop being an actual genre. I hear what you are saying about songs mixing or combining various chords, progressions, melodies, and harmonies, but unless you are saying that pop, as a genre, is defined by the mere mixing of elements from various genres, then that still does not give us a certain "set" principles or elements that define a specific or particular genre or sound. For instance, a chocolate cake anda fudge brownie have, essentially, the same elements, but varying proportions of the ingredients as well as the lack of an ingredient is what differentiates a cake from a brownie. Additionally, sticking to the rigid discussion of genre as a set or defined/prescribed equation/formula, we know how to produce a cake or a brownie on demand by utilizing a certain, specific recipe/equation/formula. And the same is true of genres, such as blues, jazz, rock, funk, R&B/soul, and classical. Musicians know what three or four elements are needed to produce those particular sounds or genres. Whereas if we say that pop, as a genre, is a mixing of various types of music, the problem with that definition is that we will not get the same sound in the manner that we know the equation/formula needed to produce a blues sound, a funk sound, a jazz sound, a rock sound, a R&B/Soul sound, a gospel sound, or a classical sound. And I'm not saying that there will not be gradations of each sound, but that is more about the subset or subcategory of each sound because even the gradations of each sound will have the two or three elements needed to compose or define each sound.

For instance, I know that Ricky Martin's "Livin' la Vida Loca" is not just pure Latin, but it is a mix of American rock and soul to produce, as you say, a "pop" or "popular" sound that a lot of people would like. However, Prince's "Let's Go Crazy" uses the same procedure of taking various genres, rock-n-roll and cutting hit (lessening the edge of rock) with keyboards and a swing so that it becomes palatable to more people, but it is still a different "sound" than " Livin' la Vida Loca." Both are popular because they are enjoyed by a wide variety of people, but they are not the same type of sounding song. (The same can be said for Prince's "Delirious" and "Horny Toad," which are both various on 50s rock but are given a more aggressive/hard edge with the new wave sounding keyboards and Prince's soulful vocal delivery, which introduces Teddy Pendergrass to Little Richard and Elvis Presley). Or maybe I'm just not hearing how "Living Lavita Loca" does sound like "Let's Go Crazy" or how a gangsta rap song by Dr. Dre and Snoop Dog has the same sound as "Let's Go Crazy" and " Livin' la Vida Loca," which is what your working definition of pop will have us assume. Again, I may be misinterpreting.

Well, look at it like this. Pop music is as much its own genre as, say, rock music. We all know that rock music's roots were based in soul and R&B (thus, gospel). You mentioned Elvis and he was a great example. Not only did he borrow heavily from fellow rockers of his time (who were black), but he also infused LOTS of soul and gospel into his music in general. He did do pure rock songs ("Hound Dog"), but he also did songs that were soul-based pop songs ("Suspicious Minds"). Similarly, Prince has donned his pop music cap ("Pop Life", "Let's Go Crazy", "Raspberry Beret") and his rock cap ("Endorphinemachine", "Chaos and Disorder", "Sign o the Times") and his soul cap ("Papa", "Willing & Able", "Something in the Water").

Pop music, as a genre (read: category of art), is a type of music which pulls from the various other types of music and blends it into a seamless artform that is appealing to, yes, the popular masses. This is where the term came from, similar to how the terms "rock and roll", "soul", "rhythm and blues", and "hip hop" all have their respective etymology. It does describe a specific formula. To touch on your metaphor, a brownie and a chocolate cake are similar in composition and its the addition or removal of certain ingredients that make them their respective confections. But while a cake is not a brownie, and vice versa, they ARE both desserts. And if Music is Dessert and R&B is a cake and Rock is a brownie then pop music would be a chocolate fudge icecream cake. Get it? It's the sum of the parts, the division of said parts being decided by the composer. But it's pop music because it will appeal to lots of people because the people with the ear for rock will hear the melody and the people with the ear for R&B will hear the rhythm and pretty soon they're dancing to the same tune.

Spinlight said:

Well, look at it like this. Pop music is as much its own genre as, say, rock music. We all know that rock music's roots were based in soul and R&B (thus, gospel). You mentioned Elvis and he was a great example. Not only did he borrow heavily from fellow rockers of his time (who were black), but he also infused LOTS of soul and gospel into his music in general. He did do pure rock songs ("Hound Dog"), but he also did songs that were soul-based pop songs ("Suspicious Minds"). Similarly, Prince has donned his pop music cap ("Pop Life", "Let's Go Crazy", "Raspberry Beret") and his rock cap ("Endorphinemachine", "Chaos and Disorder", "Sign o the Times") and his soul cap ("Papa", "Willing & Able", "Something in the Water").

Pop music, as a genre (read: category of art), is a type of music which pulls from the various other types of music and blends it into a seamless artform that is appealing to, yes, the popular masses. This is where the term came from, similar to how the terms "rock and roll", "soul", "rhythm and blues", and "hip hop" all have their respective etymology. It does describe a specific formula. To touch on your metaphor, a brownie and a chocolate cake are similar in composition and its the addition or removal of certain ingredients that make them their respective confections. But while a cake is not a brownie, and vice versa, they ARE both desserts. And if Music is Dessert and R&B is a cake and Rock is a brownie then pop music would be a chocolate fudge icecream cake. Get it? It's the sum of the parts, the division of said parts being decided by the composer. But it's pop music because it will appeal to lots of people because the people with the ear for rock will hear the melody and the people with the ear for R&B will hear the rhythm and pretty soon they're dancing to the same tune.

Okay, before I go any further, allow me to come out of the closet and admit that I’m a black nationalist that loves “Suspicious Minds.” It is my third favorite Presley song, behind “Trouble” and “In the Ghetto”. Whew, I just had to get that off my chest.

I guess I can accept pop as a genre if we can address the fact that what is considered “pop” changes from decade to decade or from generation to generation. Someone on this site said that what Miles was calling jazz in the 70s is not what he would have called jazz in the 50s. And while I’m inclined to agree with that, I would think, just based on having read his autobiography, that there were still some core elements that persisted from the 50s to the 70s that one would have needed in a song for Miles to call it jazz. Thus, what are the core musical elements (notes, chords, rhythm, progression, and/or harmony) in Little Richard’s “Long Tall Sally” that exist in 50 Cents’ “In da Club”?

On a final note, I get what you are saying about music being dessert and genres being types of desserts. However, though my wife likes chocolate cake, she doesn’t like brownies. On the other hand, I love Brownies, but I don’t like chocolate cake (though I do prefer other types of cake). And although our choices of dessert may be equally based on memories associated with the foods as well as the textures of the food, both cake and brownie have a specific recipe or formula that allows either cake or brownie to be produced every time. And, I also understand your most compelling argument that pop music can be a genre because pop music is the sum of its parts so that “people with the ear for rock will hear the melody and the people with the ear for R&B will hear the rhythm and pretty soon they're dancing to the same tune.” However, are not the songs to which billboard audiences are dancing today something different than to what audiences danced in the eighties, seventies, sixties, and forties, allowing us to assert that what is popular today is not what was popular for the last generation, allowing us to assert that “pop,” as a category, is not about genre but about mass consumption because if it was a genre with defined elements then Dr. Dre’s sound could not be included in the same genre with Ricky Martin. Not that either sound is bad or substandard (though I enjoy Martin’s “Shake Your Bon Bon” because it is much funkier than “Livin’ la Vita Loca”), but that they can’t exist in the same genre (prescribed rules for a certain sound) merely due to bass and rhythm differences, or can they?