emesem said:

hollywooddove said:

Once again, the attacks when there is no real argument. If you think that behaviors are not learned there are many schools of psychology that believe it is, and yes, even sexual orientation. There are still NO control groups that can support sexual orientation to be genetic because the orientation is already in place, as falls back on Pavlonian stimulus responses.

I'm sorry, but foods I did not like as a child, I like now, and I began to practice eating them as a choice, and it took much time to learn but I love them now.

If sexuality has no choice involved, then bi-sexuality would not exist, wouldn't you say?

Once again, I am not attacking, I am telling you what I believe to be true. I believe the sexual orientation is learned at a very young age and that it then becomes sort of hard wired, such as the choice to be right handed. It is sublime.

If you think there is no evidence that sexual orientation has no link to lifestyle, then wouldn't you say that among homosexual males there is high correlation tied to having an older brother. Strange but true. I have no reasoning for the correlation, but it exist, among many other statistics that run in gammet.

What about heterosexual addictions to pornography? Didn't these start slowly as notions entertained at some point?

As far as your question about ME choosing? Once I did become attracted to a man, and was curious about the notion to be with him. But I chose not to go down that path because of my values. I did not want to cross that line. I am perfectly happy with that choice, and I am completely heterosexual.

As far as what daunts me, please don't attempt to judge me, I am not judging anyone. This is what I believe for many reasons. But if I take the word of God to be true when it says that it is indeed a choice, then that is because I find that following the word of God holds truth in my life.

I can't judge whether or not you believe in God, or if you reject the entire word, but if you do, we will not find common ground on this issue.

My point was, and is, that whether a person believes in God or not, there is no healthy result in alienating or pomously condemning homosexuals. I don't think Jesus would have approached the matter in that way. I find this in the way he approached Mary, who had sexual problems of her own. He did tell her to follow Him though.

That is all that I have to say on this. If you want to call me ignorant because I believe God loves us all and that there is only one true God who does have expectations, and does have a clear view on what He created, then we will not have a common ground. You have the freedom to believe whatever you want. So do I. I understand many people who say they follow God's teachings like to crush homosexuals, and there has been damage due to that. On their behalf, I am sorry things have gotten to this. I just want to say at the end of the day, I believe Jesus lives, and he loves us all.

While you cover your language with pretty platitudes, your promotion of homosexuality as a "choice" is just as hurtful as the people who overtly, as you say want to "crush homosexuals". This belife you think you must announce to all of us is "alienating and pomous." You say you are not judging but your words belie that. You are entitled to your beliefs but you are not excused for them simply they are based on religion.

In your world, people choose to be homosexual or can be rightious and choose not to be homosexual. This implies that hetero is the correct way to be and some of us reject that and we dont need to accept it just because you think it gets you closer to heaven. I do not judge you because you believe in God, I only judge you for thinking that you know what God's "clear view' is. Must be comforting.

Being heterosexual does not make anyone closer to heaven. There is nothing in the word that implies that. I never even came close to claiming that. Once again, I believe the word of God is the truth. There are no platitudes, because the truth needs none. If the word choice is hurtful, well, sometimes truth is hurtful.

Once again, I do not mind hearing from you. You sound very intelligent, but at the end you fall back on cheap sarcasm attacking with the statement that I must be comforted by what you feel like is nothing but an delusion. Yes, I stand firm that God left His word with us, so that we would not have to reinvent our perceptions of Him or His standards based on our selfish wants. That would take a loveless, shallow god. If you throw sarcasm, you are throwing it at the word which I believe to be Holy, and that I would defend, not because it condemns any one man, but because it is the outreach of God's eternal love that saves all people, and that is worth defending.

[Edited 7/23/10 15:01pm]

Not to keep it off topic but someone judging people of sexual orientation is hypocritical since you believe in a religion where it clearly states only God can judge, not people living on Earth.

Oh yeah homosexuality's not a choice. You're either born with it or you're not. I get sick of people judging others and trying to push their agenda that homosexuality or even bisexuality is wrong and "is sinful" but HELLO, we're all sinners, but it doesn't mean that who you are as a person is a sin. It's like saying you choose to be black or you choose to be white or you choose to be transgender when in reality we're born different, we are different, we just happen to BLEED the same.

Saying you choose to be gay is like saying you choose to murder someone. You can CHOOSE to kill, you can't choose what your dick or pussy reacts to.

NOW get the fuck back on topic.

[Edited 7/23/10 15:22pm]

Anyways, you know what's kinda funny is that some of us often say Prince changed his whole outlook. I notice he has always been the way he is from the early years. Nothing on 20Ten is as different as it seems. Like I said, he's bringing more of his religious thoughts more to the forefront than he probably would've 11 years ago.

Timmy84 said:

Oh yeah homosexuality's not a choice. You're either born with it or you're not.

Oh trust me, homosexuality is a choice. As is being straight.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Timmy84 said:

Oh yeah homosexuality's not a choice. You're either born with it or you're not.

Oh trust me, homosexuality is a choice. As is being straight.

Well if that's your belief, good, but I don't believe it. Agree to disagree.

Now back on topic. I've done explained my thoughts on this.

Timmy84 said:

Not to keep it off topic but someone judging people of sexual orientation is hypocritical since you believe in a religion where it clearly states only God can judge, not people living on Earth.

Oh yeah homosexuality's not a choice. You're either born with it or you're not. I get sick of people judging others and trying to push their agenda that homosexuality or even bisexuality is wrong and "is sinful" but HELLO, we're all sinners, but it doesn't mean that who you are as a person is a sin. It's like saying you choose to be black or you choose to be white or you choose to be transgender when in reality we're born different, we are different, we just happen to BLEED the same.

Saying you choose to be gay is like saying you choose to murder someone. You can CHOOSE to kill, you can't choose what your dick or pussy reacts to.

NOW get the fuck back on topic.

[Edited 7/23/10 15:22pm]

Yep, we are all sinners, never disputed that. Yep, I believe the creator of the universe is the supreme judge, that would make sense, nothing hypocritical about that, but as a human and a sinner as I am, the word says all are guilty of hypocrosy, none of us can escape that. Born with it or not, no absolute proof of that what-so-ever. If I am wrong in my beliefs, then so be it. Then every belief I have in God would be wrong, and I certainly won't have to answer to anyone but Him for that.

But I do agree, I did not want to get off topic with this. I simply made a simple statement about my opinion above, was attacked for it constistantly where I made no attack, and simply defended my belief, which needs no more appology than the comments of those who have differing opinions.

But yes, by all means, lets get back on topic.

NouveauDance said:

I don't CARE if they use Linn drum samples, whoop-di-doo!!.... Once again: The. Songs. Are. Crap.

(Since you didn't add an IMO, I'm not either! )

Here endeth the discussion, this is fact unless you are totally warped. This is his poorest album in years and if a new artist came out with this drivel he would be confined to the bargain bin within a week.

Don't get me wrong, I adore Prince's music and have done for nearly two decades but anyone with a clue about music can see that he is on auto-pilot, whether this has anything to do with his religion, his age or his state of mind is anybody's guess but any sane person will realise that his output has diminished in terms of quality, never mind originality.

I don't want the memory of the Prince we know and love to be eroded if he continues to release such albums and I fear for his status as a true living rock legend if he keeps this up.

Just my two pence worth.

smoothcriminal12 said:

Timmy84 said:

Oh yeah homosexuality's not a choice. You're either born with it or you're not.

Oh trust me, homosexuality is a choice. As is being straight.

If sexuality is a choice, I'd ask you to please follow through with this experiment: find an exceptional piece of architecture, choose to find its utter grandeur sexually gratifying and beat off to it furiously until orgasm is achieved.

I think his status is cemented but the albums leave a lot to be desired. I think there IS a lot left in Prince but he chooses to be complacent.

hollywooddove said:

Not all choices are concious. Lifestyles derive from very complex origins. We all don't like the same foods, same colors, same authors, etc. And if you read my entire post, I am not attacking anyone. Thank you for your learned defense of sarcasm, but I would rather hear something from you a little more personal and honest, not just a one liner. A response such as that makes one wonder if you are truly serious or simply bitter.

LOL Im not bitter at all, Indeed I was quite serious. It is utter fucking nonsense.

The idea that anyone would toss around that ill-informed, antiquated terminology in this day and age is laughable. You're certainly entitled to believe what you wish but it's still nonsense just the same.

Choices must be consciously made... otherwise it is not a "choice". Sexual orientation is not a choice. I've never once found a single person, straight or gay, that said they actively chose their orientation. Now, a person can choose their BEHAVIOR but not their innate orientation. A perfect example of this are self-hating homosexuals that fall into the sham of "ex-gay treatments"... There has never been a single, verified case where anyone was "cured"... they may have changed their "behavior" but virtually all have indicated their innate desires continue to be homosexual (and that these treatments are mentally damaging, as well). So, you can be true to who you are or pretend to be something you are not. That's the only real choice there.

If sexuality has no choice involved, then bi-sexuality would not exist, wouldn't you say?

There's no logic in this at all. The idea that you might innately appreciate both genders at a sexual level does not, in any way, indicate a choice. The fact is that orientation is quite fluid for some individuals and quite rigid for others. Sexual identity and sexual orientation are seperate but both factor into an individuals make-up. If I found both genders attractive I might CHOOSE to go after both but I don't. You might be different. Once again; behavior is a choice, orientation is not.

If you think there is no evidence that sexual orientation has no link to lifestyle, then wouldn't you say that among homosexual males there is high correlation tied to having an older brother. Strange but true. I have no reasoning for the correlation, but it exist, among many other statistics that run in gammet.

Actually, I'm not sure how sound the evidence you site is HOWEVER the prevailing idea in that scenario is that there are chemical changes in the womb from repeated pregnancies that may have SOME effect on later children. I've not read any current, reputable scientific literature that treats this as a lifestyle factor.

Indeed, if sexuality was learned then later children would learn heterosexuality from their parents and the behavior of their older brothers according to your logic.

What about heterosexual addictions to pornography? Didn't these start slowly as notions entertained at some point?

Are we trying to associate homosexuality with addiction, now? Lame, unfounded, and moving on...

As far as your question about ME choosing? Once I did become attracted to a man, and was curious about the notion to be with him. But I chose not to go down that path because of my values. I did not want to cross that line. I am perfectly happy with that choice, and I am completely heterosexual.

I think you've just proven my point. Your attraction was NOT a choice. Your choice here was whether you acted on it or not, and this decision was made consciously. If sexual orientation is on a sliding scale, maybe you're a 0.5.

If you wish to continue this discussion then perhaps it might be best to make a thread in an appropriate forum and provide a link.

[While this has been an interesting exchange of points and theories regarding this very touchy issue, it is obviously (and was pointed out several times) a topic for a completely different forum. If you choose to continue this discussion in the P&R forum, please do. Otherwise, return to the original topic at hand. Any future postings of the "off topic" conversation will be dealt with more strictly henceforth. Now please return to the original topic of this thread. Thank you - June7]