NouveauDance said:

emesem said:

you're such a buzzkill.

Yeah..... 20Ten is like aural erectile dysfunction.

So as, "The Beet," would say...

On one had that is rude, on the other hand, Prince has grown dysfuntional for some...

However, Prince and I will be working that out behind closed doors. ...And the smiley that's missing...The, Mr. Sippi Smiley...

skywalker said:

funksterr said:

Patriots participate. Patriots vote. They don't write songs about going to France, which has it's own racial and ethnic issues as well as a dubious colonization history, and claim to be a slave. Ole boy comes off like a fool, if you take off the fan glasses and look at it for real.

Look at it for real? "Lavaux" is a song about fantasy. It's like Christopher Tracy. Pretty self righteous to tell others what being a Patriot is or isn't. Reminds me of the last President we had....

Totally agree. But that said, would be kind of cool if he moved to Europe. Might actually be good for his music!

skywalker said:

funksterr said:

Patriots participate. Patriots vote. They don't write songs about going to France, which has it's own racial and ethnic issues as well as a dubious colonization history, and claim to be a slave. Ole boy comes off like a fool, if you take off the fan glasses and look at it for real.

Look at it for real? "Lavaux" is a song about fantasy. It's like Christopher Tracy. Pretty self righteous to tell others what being a Patriot is or isn't. Reminds me of the last President we had....

funksterr said:

skywalker said:

Look at it for real? "Lavaux" is a song about fantasy. It's like Christopher Tracy. Pretty self righteous to tell others what being a Patriot is or isn't. Reminds me of the last President we had....

Some things just are not that debatable: From Websters dictionary:

Main Entry: pa·tri·ot

Pronunciation: \ˈpā-trē-ət, -ˌät, chiefly British ˈpa-trē-ət\

Function: noun

: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests

I just don't get that vibe off of recent Prince material. And even if the song is fantasy, it's in poor taste and weakly written from a lyrical standpoint. It's just so-so to me.

I agree that Prince's material isn't explicitly patriotic by dictionary definitions. I mean, he's not dressed up like Captian America, and he's not banging the drum country singer Toby Keith is banging. Then again, has Prince ever been that way?

I don't think that there is a strong case for Prince being anti-American in his lyrics. I think those are your views of "Lavaux" and that it rubbed you the wrong way. A lot of people have been unhappy with the way America has been for the last 10 years or so, and Prince expressing that similar sentiment doesn't make him "anti-American". Again, to me, "Lavaux" is simply a song about escape/vacation and getting away from it all.

I should point out that, on the very same 20TEN album, Prince also proudly embraces his hometown/state roots and proudly exclaims that he's from Minnesota. Last time I checked, it was Minneapolis, MN, USA. Can one proudly brag about their state/city and be anti-American?

NouveauDance said:

HonestMan13 said:

Not at all but why keep driving the point home on every 20Ten thread you can find! We heard you 25 threads ago.

It's a new album, we're all discussing it, it's an active topic. Why keep saying you like it? Why keep saying anything? It's a discussion forum.

I do have to giggle, if one goes against the grain on here, it's like a cardinal sin. I see people slagging off Planet Earth all the time, I happen to like a pretty good chunk of that album, and I say as much - but I'm not asking anyone to stop saying they dislike it, or other recent album I like.

It also makes me laugh how some of people who are wielding the pitchforks are the same people who were frantically orgnoting me a fortnight ago begging for a link to download the album!

skywalker said:

funksterr said:

Some things just are not that debatable: From Websters dictionary:

Main Entry: pa·tri·ot

Pronunciation: \ˈpā-trē-ət, -ˌät, chiefly British ˈpa-trē-ət\

Function: noun

: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests

I just don't get that vibe off of recent Prince material. And even if the song is fantasy, it's in poor taste and weakly written from a lyrical standpoint. It's just so-so to me.

I agree that Prince's material isn't explicitly patriotic by dictionary definitions. I mean, he's not dressed up like Captian America, and he's not banging the drum country singer Toby Keith is banging. Then again, has Prince ever been that way?

I don't think that there is a strong case for Prince being anti-American in his lyrics. I think those are your views of "Lavaux" and that it rubbed you the wrong way. A lot of people have been unhappy with the way America has been for the last 10 years or so, and Prince expressing that similar sentiment doesn't make him "anti-American". Again, to me, "Lavaux" is simply a song about escape/vacation and getting away from it all.

I should point out that, on the very same 20TEN album, Prince also proudly embraces his hometown/state roots and proudly exclaims that he's from Minnesota. Last time I checked, it was Minneapolis, MN, USA. Can one proudly brag about their state/city and be anti-American?

I hear where you are coming from, but I think you are minimizing the truth. What started out as bytching about Warners, has morphed into bytching about the recording industry and now it's bytching about the nation as a whole. Even worse it's not even entertaining. I bet he's simply pissed that his sales are low in America, but that is entirely his own fault. As his audience we don't owe it to him to look the other way when he starts talking like a spolied pop star. It's childish for Prince to throw around the slavery word. And it's childish to diss the nation, in which Prince has grossed somewhere around $300 million dollars over the last 30 years.

NouveauDance said:

Once again: The. Songs. Are. Crap.

Don't you think that's a bit black and white? You don't see at least potential in Compassion or Future Soul Song?

The album is hit and miss. Some tracks are way under-par and just plain lazy (Walk In Sand, Sea of Everything), others are just meh (Everybody Loves Me), some are great (Laveaux, FSS, Compassion).

Like most Prince albums, it has moments of brilliance and some truly offensive turds.

NouveauDance said:

vitalbacon said:

if u don't like 20ten, u just don't like prince.

because this is what he does.

so indeed: why. r. u. here.

Same old b.s. "you don't like the latest album YOU ARE BANISHED!"

no it is not the same old b.s. Because you do not like anything that Prince does and we can't get you banished and you do not have enough commonsense to stop coming to a message board for an artist you do not like anymore.

[Edited 7/22/10 10:24am]

Ugh. The album sounds so dated.

funksterr said:

paisleypark4 said:

Lavaux is "anti american" because he wanted to escape from all of Americas problems? Somebody CALL HER!!!!!!

Prince songs in general, are Anti-American lately. 2010 is no different and that attitude definitely keeps this album from having a lot of meaning to me. Strip away the stuff about the government and taxes and religion and what do you have? Carefully replayed demo tracks that he didn't think were good enough in the 80's, now injected with random quotes from "Watchtower" and bytching about his grown-azz-man resposibilities like, at 52 years old, he just found out about them.

Prince songs in general, are Anti-American lately.

Oh no call foxnews !!!! Dude get off your fucking meds. P has been bitching about taxes back to the early 2000s with comments in interviews about his local taxes. We all have to pay them does not mean we like to or really want and he is not the only one bitching about it.

midiscover said:

Ugh. The album sounds so dated.

Duh it is a retro CD

laurarichardson said:

midiscover said:

Ugh. The album sounds so dated.

Duh it is a retro CD

I mean in a bad way

midiscover said:

laurarichardson said:

Duh it is a retro CD

I mean in a bad way

Disagree. I really think he hit it out of the park and some of this dislike has more to do with some fans never being satisfied with anything P does. If he does a rock cd problem. do a retro cd problem, pop cd problem. Like I said it might be time for some fans to move on.

laurarichardson said:

funksterr said:

Prince songs in general, are Anti-American lately. 2010 is no different and that attitude definitely keeps this album from having a lot of meaning to me. Strip away the stuff about the government and taxes and religion and what do you have? Carefully replayed demo tracks that he didn't think were good enough in the 80's, now injected with random quotes from "Watchtower" and bytching about his grown-azz-man resposibilities like, at 52 years old, he just found out about them.

Prince songs in general, are Anti-American lately.

Oh no call foxnews !!!! Dude get off your fucking meds. P has been bitching about taxes back to the early 2000s with comments in interviews about his local taxes. We all have to pay them does not mean we like to or really want and he is not the only one bitching about it.

And no one cares if you or Prince enjoy paying taxes. My issue is that I don't like it as a topic for a song. Make all the excuses and justifications you like. Prince tends to turn off listeners with this stuff, not turn them on. Taxes, government, history... who cares? It's all the depressed musings of a spoiled old rich man. Only the most dedicated of Prince fans will ever play the cd twice, and even then most wouldn't part with cash for it.

funksterr said:

Only the most dedicated of Prince fans will ever play the cd twice, and even then most wouldn't part with cash for it.

Yeah, because nobody went out and bought Lotusflow3r....

NouveauDance said:

I don't CARE if they use Linn drum samples, whoop-di-doo!!.... Once again: The. Songs. Are. Crap.

(Since you didn't add an IMO, I'm not either! )

Well,I always push back to this. Prince is still selling albums, so they are not crap to many people. Plus, Prince always surprises us. Even with his crap. It's true. I believe we keep expecting Prince to come back and revolutionize music again, and what he did in the 80's was miraculous for anyone to do ONCE in their life, much less twice.

I enjoy and look forward to each album. He is just a man who writes music and performs. I will never label anything as 'crap' until I have realeased as many albums as he has and people buy up tickets to watch me perform. I'm amazed that after all of these years that he is still able to come up with anything.

funksterr said:

skywalker said:

I agree that Prince's material isn't explicitly patriotic by dictionary definitions. I mean, he's not dressed up like Captian America, and he's not banging the drum country singer Toby Keith is banging. Then again, has Prince ever been that way?

I don't think that there is a strong case for Prince being anti-American in his lyrics. I think those are your views of "Lavaux" and that it rubbed you the wrong way. A lot of people have been unhappy with the way America has been for the last 10 years or so, and Prince expressing that similar sentiment doesn't make him "anti-American". Again, to me, "Lavaux" is simply a song about escape/vacation and getting away from it all.

I should point out that, on the very same 20TEN album, Prince also proudly embraces his hometown/state roots and proudly exclaims that he's from Minnesota. Last time I checked, it was Minneapolis, MN, USA. Can one proudly brag about their state/city and be anti-American?

I hear where you are coming from, but I think you are minimizing the truth. What started out as bytching about Warners, has morphed into bytching about the recording industry and now it's bytching about the nation as a whole. Even worse it's not even entertaining. I bet he's simply pissed that his sales are low in America, but that is entirely his own fault. As his audience we don't owe it to him to look the other way when he starts talking like a spolied pop star. It's childish for Prince to throw around the slavery word. And it's childish to diss the nation, in which Prince has grossed somewhere around $300 million dollars over the last 30 years.

I see the the 1st two as the same and the 3rd as a completely different bag. Prince does come off as disillusioned by his country. So what? Is this really different that the anti-authority (other than God) stance that he has always had?

Many people in the US are, and have been for a long, long, time. For some, money isn't everything, nor all that they require to be satisfied with this country.

The United States is great, but many aspire for it to be more. It can be more. It is up to the people (including rock n' roll stars) to voice their opinions/wishes/feelings about the country.

Was James Brown anti-American? He wrote many songs about the ills of society before he sang "living in America". Was Bob Dylan unpatriotic when he wrote protest songs? One can disagree, be disappointed, and disillusioned with American and be allowed express it freely. Doesn't mean they are anti American. One of the original ideas about this country is that you have the freedom to speak up about it without being persecuted, without being labeled as a traitor, or soft variations like, Anti American, unpatriotic, etc. That's that George W. "with us, or against us" mentality.

Many people have a more global view of humanity...and Prince's other lyrics suggest that this is how he sees the world. As I said before, Prince is proud of his hometown/state, and continues to reside in the States.

So, I'll try hard not to end this with the standard, "Prince: If you don't like to listen to his albums, then don't listen" talk. But, only if you move away from the, "America: Love it, or leave it!" talk.

[Edited 7/22/10 11:37am]

funksterr said:

laurarichardson said:

Prince songs in general, are Anti-American lately.

Oh no call foxnews !!!! Dude get off your fucking meds. P has been bitching about taxes back to the early 2000s with comments in interviews about his local taxes. We all have to pay them does not mean we like to or really want and he is not the only one bitching about it.

And no one cares if you or Prince enjoy paying taxes. My issue is that I don't like it as a topic for a song. Make all the excuses and justifications you like. Prince tends to turn off listeners with this stuff, not turn them on. Taxes, government, history... who cares? It's all the depressed musings of a spoiled old rich man. Only the most dedicated of Prince fans will ever play the cd twice, and even then most wouldn't part with cash for it.

Where to begin with this b.s.

"My issue is that I don't like it as a topic for a song."

Then do not listen. No one is forcing you to go to a website and listen to this CD or go out and find it. Some us like music that is beyond the tired and trite lyrics of modern RnB and Pop. At least Prince is writing about something other than his dick or sex life. Which I bet did not bother you one bit.

"Only the most dedicated of Prince fans will ever play the cd twice, and even then most wouldn't part with cash for it."

Yes, because no one brought LotusFlower despite the fact that it is still in the mid 50s on the RnB chart over a year later. You need to come with some facts buddy or just stop posting on this topic. We get it you do not care for P or his music. A lot of us with taste do.

Prince Hates America.

laurarichardson said:

funksterr said:

And no one cares if you or Prince enjoy paying taxes. My issue is that I don't like it as a topic for a song. Make all the excuses and justifications you like. Prince tends to turn off listeners with this stuff, not turn them on. Taxes, government, history... who cares? It's all the depressed musings of a spoiled old rich man. Only the most dedicated of Prince fans will ever play the cd twice, and even then most wouldn't part with cash for it.

Where to begin with this b.s.

"My issue is that I don't like it as a topic for a song."

Then do not listen. No one is forcing you to go to a website and listen to this CD or go out and find it. Some us like music that is beyond the tired and trite lyrics of modern RnB and Pop. At least Prince is writing about something other than his dick or sex life. Which I bet did not bother you one bit.

"Only the most dedicated of Prince fans will ever play the cd twice, and even then most wouldn't part with cash for it."

Yes, because no one brought LotusFlower despite the fact that it is still in the mid 50s on the RnB chart over a year later. You need to come with some facts buddy or just stop posting on this topic. We get it you do not care for P or his music. A lot of us with taste do.

[Offensive posts snipped. - June7]

funksterr said:

laurarichardson said:

Where to begin with this b.s.

"My issue is that I don't like it as a topic for a song."

Then do not listen. No one is forcing you to go to a website and listen to this CD or go out and find it. Some us like music that is beyond the tired and trite lyrics of modern RnB and Pop. At least Prince is writing about something other than his dick or sex life. Which I bet did not bother you one bit.

"Only the most dedicated of Prince fans will ever play the cd twice, and even then most wouldn't part with cash for it."

Yes, because no one brought LotusFlower despite the fact that it is still in the mid 50s on the RnB chart over a year later. You need to come with some facts buddy or just stop posting on this topic. We get it you do not care for P or his music. A lot of us with taste do.

[Offensive post snipped. - June7]

Gay dudes ha? You know its funny that most "straight" people who claim that somebody else is gay usually are themselves. And being a gay African American male I feel your quote to be highly homophobic and your next quote to be sexist. And you expect for someone to take you seriously? And the simple fact that you are trying to entertain your case with no merit shows that you have no thesis for your spurts of anger torwards Prince. Go somewhere. I stomp my feet on people like you on a daily basis.

paisleypark4 said:

funksterr said:

Uhmm, I'm not even going to entertain the premise that people, other than gay dudes and aging old fat chicks such as yourself, are fired up about LoutFlow3r or 2010. Does not compute.

Gay dudes ha? You know its funny that most "straight" people who claim that somebody else is gay usually are themselves. And being a gay African American male I feel your quote to be highly homophobic and your next quote to be sexist. And you expect for someone to take you seriously? And the simple fact that you are trying to entertain your case with no merit shows that you have no thesis for your spurts of anger torwards Prince. Go somewhere. I stomp my feet on people like you on a daily basis.

You know, not wanting to season this topic to a tangent, I am heterosexual and I like the 2010. Don't care much for Lotus. What is this thing that you have to be homosexual to like Prince? While I do not agree with the homosexual choice, I will respectfully say that some of the most deviant sexual pererts I know have been heterosexuals. I was once one of them and partied with them. When it comes to condemning people, or pushing them into a corner based on sexual habits, we need to remember that none of us are perfect by far. I don't think we engage any type of healing on either side that can bring any of this together for any type of good as long as we hate. I don't think Jesus ever taught to hate one another.

paisleypark4 said:

funksterr said:

[Offensive post snipped. - June7]

Gay dudes ha? You know its funny that most "straight" people who claim that somebody else is gay usually are themselves. And being a gay African American male I feel your quote to be highly homophobic and your next quote to be sexist. And you expect for someone to take you seriously? And the simple fact that you are trying to entertain your case with no merit shows that you have no thesis for your spurts of anger torwards Prince. Go somewhere. I stomp my feet on people like you on a daily basis.

My only point is that Prince has lost the mainstream and only the most fanatical part of the fanbase will accept songs about his personal financial problems. I'm not sure what you feel is homophobic by my comments, but I'll apologize for them all the same. And that's better than gay dudes got from Prince when he said gay marriage was wrong then claimed to be misquoted.

MattyJam said:

NouveauDance said:

Once again: The. Songs. Are. Crap.

Don't you think that's a bit black and white? You don't see at least potential in Compassion or Future Soul Song?

The album is hit and miss. Some tracks are way under-par and just plain lazy (Walk In Sand, Sea of Everything), others are just meh (Everybody Loves Me), some are great (Laveaux, FSS, Compassion).

Like most Prince albums, it has moments of brilliance and some truly offensive turds.

Thats how I see Prince's albums - mixture of great, ok and not great at all but I think 20ten is a big improvement on the likes of Lotus, Planet Earth, Musicology, 3121, Rave.

They mostly sounded forced and attempted to be commercial apart from the odd song (like - I love u but dont trust u, Reflection, Colonized Mind) but 20ten doesn't apart from maybe Laydown. I can listen from Beginning Endlessly to Laveaux without wanting to skip, 5 great songs in a row IMO.

hollywooddove said:

I do not agree with the homosexual choice

The "homosexual choice"? WTF is that? Is it a drink from Nescafe, like Taster's Choice???

I surely don't remember any "choice". What utter fucking nonsense....

MattyJam said:

NouveauDance said:

Once again: The. Songs. Are. Crap.

Don't you think that's a bit black and white? You don't see at least potential in Compassion or Future Soul Song?

The album is hit and miss. Some tracks are way under-par and just plain lazy (Walk In Sand, Sea of Everything), others are just meh (Everybody Loves Me), some are great (Laveaux, FSS, Compassion).

Like most Prince albums, it has moments of brilliance and some truly offensive turds.

Pffft... I was just being short.

You know, yesterday I had the melody to Future Soul Song swimming around my head, it was rather bothersome.

I recant my sins against Yahweh's second favourite son.

.

[Edited 7/23/10 2:58am]

jtfolden said:

hollywooddove said:

I do not agree with the homosexual choice

The "homosexual choice"? WTF is that? Is it a drink from Nescafe, like Taster's Choice???

I surely don't remember any "choice". What utter fucking nonsense....

Not all choices are concious. Lifestyles derive from very complex origins. We all don't like the same foods, same colors, same authors, etc. And if you read my entire post, I am not attacking anyone. Thank you for your learned defense of sarcasm, but I would rather hear something from you a little more personal and honest, not just a one liner. A response such as that makes one wonder if you are truly serious or simply bitter.

hollywooddove said:

jtfolden said:

The "homosexual choice"? WTF is that? Is it a drink from Nescafe, like Taster's Choice???

I surely don't remember any "choice". What utter fucking nonsense....

Not all choices are concious. Lifestyles derive from very complex origins. We all don't like the same foods, same colors, same authors, etc. And if you read my entire post, I am not attacking anyone. Thank you for your learned defense of sarcasm, but I would rather hear something from you a little more personal and honest, not just a one liner. A response such as that makes one wonder if you are truly serious or simply bitter.

Good grief. You honestly don't see why your words evoked that response?

Sexual orientation is not a choice, and has nothing to do with upbringing or lifestyle.

The argument that not all choices are concious doesn't hold water either. The notion of choice implies a concious act.

To use your own 'food' argument - I don't like coriander, to me it has a vile bitter taste that ruins anything it's put in. It is a toxic abomination and upon sight should be fed with a liberal dose of roundup. If I ever open a restaurant it'll be called "No Coriander". Not liking coriander is not a choice, choosing not to eat it is.

Your argument suggests that on some unconcsious level I might have chosen to dislike coriander. Do you think it would be possible for me to suddenly choose to like coriander? No, of course not, that would be bloody stupid, as is the phrase 'homosexual choice'.

In case you're still in any doubt, here's a little experiment for you to carry out - if homosexuality is a choice then make that choice - go and be gay for a day, and be sure to come back and tell us how you got on.

Or if that's too daunting for you, how about telling us all about why you choose to be straight?

AsylumUtopia said:

hollywooddove said:

Not all choices are concious. Lifestyles derive from very complex origins. We all don't like the same foods, same colors, same authors, etc. And if you read my entire post, I am not attacking anyone. Thank you for your learned defense of sarcasm, but I would rather hear something from you a little more personal and honest, not just a one liner. A response such as that makes one wonder if you are truly serious or simply bitter.

Good grief. You honestly don't see why your words evoked that response?

Sexual orientation is not a choice, and has nothing to do with upbringing or lifestyle.

The argument that not all choices are concious doesn't hold water either. The notion of choice implies a concious act.

To use your own 'food' argument - I don't like coriander, to me it has a vile bitter taste that ruins anything it's put in. It is a toxic abomination and upon sight should be fed with a liberal dose of roundup. If I ever open a restaurant it'll be called "No Coriander". Not liking coriander is not a choice, choosing not to eat it is.

Your argument suggests that on some unconcsious level I might have chosen to dislike coriander. Do you think it would be possible for me to suddenly choose to like coriander? No, of course not, that would be bloody stupid, as is the phrase 'homosexual choice'.

In case you're still in any doubt, here's a little experiment for you to carry out - if homosexuality is a choice then make that choice - go and be gay for a day, and be sure to come back and tell us how you got on.

Or if that's too daunting for you, how about telling us all about why you choose to be straight?

Once again, the attacks when there is no real argument. If you think that behaviors are not learned there are many schools of psychology that believe it is, and yes, even sexual orientation. There are still NO control groups that can support sexual orientation to be genetic because the orientation is already in place, as falls back on Pavlonian stimulus responses.

I'm sorry, but foods I did not like as a child, I like now, and I began to practice eating them as a choice, and it took much time to learn but I love them now.

If sexuality has no choice involved, then bi-sexuality would not exist, wouldn't you say?

Once again, I am not attacking, I am telling you what I believe to be true. I believe the sexual orientation is learned at a very young age and that it then becomes sort of hard wired, such as the choice to be right handed. It is sublime.

If you think there is no evidence that sexual orientation has no link to lifestyle, then wouldn't you say that among homosexual males there is high correlation tied to having an older brother. Strange but true. I have no reasoning for the correlation, but it exist, among many other statistics that run in gammet.

What about heterosexual addictions to pornography? Didn't these start slowly as notions entertained at some point?

As far as your question about ME choosing? Once I did become attracted to a man, and was curious about the notion to be with him. But I chose not to go down that path because of my values. I did not want to cross that line. I am perfectly happy with that choice, and I am completely heterosexual.

As far as what daunts me, please don't attempt to judge me, I am not judging anyone. This is what I believe for many reasons. But if I take the word of God to be true when it says that it is indeed a choice, then that is because I find that following the word of God holds truth in my life.

I can't judge whether or not you believe in God, or if you reject the entire word, but if you do, we will not find common ground on this issue.

My point was, and is, that whether a person believes in God or not, there is no healthy result in alienating or pomously condemning homosexuals. I don't think Jesus would have approached the matter in that way. I find this in the way he approached Mary, who had sexual problems of her own. He did tell her to follow Him though.

That is all that I have to say on this. If you want to call me ignorant because I believe God loves us all and that there is only one true God who does have expectations, and does have a clear view on what He created, then we will not have a common ground. You have the freedom to believe whatever you want. So do I. I understand many people who say they follow God's teachings like to crush homosexuals, and there has been damage due to that. On their behalf, I am sorry things have gotten to this. I just want to say at the end of the day, I believe Jesus lives, and he loves us all.

hollywooddove said:

Once again, the attacks when there is no real argument. If you think that behaviors are not learned there are many schools of psychology that believe it is, and yes, even sexual orientation. There are still NO control groups that can support sexual orientation to be genetic because the orientation is already in place, as falls back on Pavlonian stimulus responses.

I'm sorry, but foods I did not like as a child, I like now, and I began to practice eating them as a choice, and it took much time to learn but I love them now.

If sexuality has no choice involved, then bi-sexuality would not exist, wouldn't you say?

Once again, I am not attacking, I am telling you what I believe to be true. I believe the sexual orientation is learned at a very young age and that it then becomes sort of hard wired, such as the choice to be right handed. It is sublime.

If you think there is no evidence that sexual orientation has no link to lifestyle, then wouldn't you say that among homosexual males there is high correlation tied to having an older brother. Strange but true. I have no reasoning for the correlation, but it exist, among many other statistics that run in gammet.

What about heterosexual addictions to pornography? Didn't these start slowly as notions entertained at some point?

As far as your question about ME choosing? Once I did become attracted to a man, and was curious about the notion to be with him. But I chose not to go down that path because of my values. I did not want to cross that line. I am perfectly happy with that choice, and I am completely heterosexual.

As far as what daunts me, please don't attempt to judge me, I am not judging anyone. This is what I believe for many reasons. But if I take the word of God to be true when it says that it is indeed a choice, then that is because I find that following the word of God holds truth in my life.

I can't judge whether or not you believe in God, or if you reject the entire word, but if you do, we will not find common ground on this issue.

My point was, and is, that whether a person believes in God or not, there is no healthy result in alienating or pomously condemning homosexuals. I don't think Jesus would have approached the matter in that way. I find this in the way he approached Mary, who had sexual problems of her own. He did tell her to follow Him though.

That is all that I have to say on this. If you want to call me ignorant because I believe God loves us all and that there is only one true God who does have expectations, and does have a clear view on what He created, then we will not have a common ground. You have the freedom to believe whatever you want. So do I. I understand many people who say they follow God's teachings like to crush homosexuals, and there has been damage due to that. On their behalf, I am sorry things have gotten to this. I just want to say at the end of the day, I believe Jesus lives, and he loves us all.

While you cover your language with pretty platitudes, your promotion of homosexuality as a "choice" is just as hurtful as the people who overtly, as you say want to "crush homosexuals". This belife you think you must announce to all of us is "alienating and pomous." You say you are not judging but your words belie that. You are entitled to your beliefs but you are not excused for them simply they are based on religion.

In your world, people choose to be homosexual or can be rightious and choose not to be homosexual. This implies that hetero is the correct way to be and some of us reject that and we dont need to accept it just because you think it gets you closer to heaven. I do not judge you because you believe in God, I only judge you for thinking that you know what God's "clear view' is. Must be comforting.