I personally consider D&P to be by far his weakest album to date and yet I see it getting a lot of love on this board from fans who remember the era.

If you take away the fact that this was his last commercially successful album and just judge the material on it's own merits, it's abundantly clear that this much-celebrated album is chock full of sub-par material. From throwaway dross like Jughead and Daddy Pop to the ghastly overblown monstrosity that is Thunder. Even the better tracks like Gett Off and Live 4 Love are badly-produced and have aged dreadfully.

And yet lesser-successful albums like Rave or Emancipation get blasted all the time. If Wherever U Go Whatever U Do had been a hit for Prince instead of Lenny Kravitz, or if songs like So Far So Pleased and Face Down had achieved a similar level of chart success to Gett Off or Cream, I reckon these albums would be perceived very differently today by a lot of fans.

Thoughts?

[Edited 7/17/10 3:25am]

I Love all of Prince's Albums, and most certainly "Diamonds&Pearls."

Your post truly underrates the song, "Thunder," as well as underrating, "Live4Love."

I guess that is your opinion...And my opinion is my opinion...And we can agree 2 disagree...

Yet when I remember the classic song, "Baby I'm A Star," from the classic, "Purple Rain," album...I Love the line where Prince sings, "There ain't nothing wrong with your ears."

As a fan of Prince's since 1979...I kind of know with arrogance that Prince is talking to me with that line and not talking to U.

For me no. I never ever look at how the general public views an album. I judge an album on how I feel about it. If I like it then I like it. If I don't then I don't. I have never, nor will I, read a comment or review about the album and base my opinion of that particular album on that comment or review. So far, based on how I feel and MY views, I haven't found an album or song of Prince that I did not like. I happen to love them all lol.

Tame said:

I Love all of Prince's Albums, and most certainly "Diamonds&Pearls."

Your post truly underrates the song, "Thunder," as well as underrating, "Live4Love."

I guess that is your opinion...And my opinion is my opinion...And we can agree 2 disagree...

Yet when I remember the classic song, "Baby I'm A Star," from the classic, "Purple Rain," album...I Love the line where Prince sings, "There ain't nothing wrong with your ears."

As a fan of Prince's since 1979...I kind of know with arrogance that Prince is talking to me with that line and not talking to U.

I dig Live4Love, infact I consider it to be one of the best songs from the album, but there most certainly IS something wrong with your ears if you don't hear how poorly-produced and dated the whole D&P album sounds, even compared to other albums from 1991.

purplemajesty23 said:

For me no. I never ever look at how the general public views an album. I judge an album on how I feel about it. If I like it then I like it. If I don't then I don't. I have never, nor will I, read a comment or review about the album and base my opinion of that particular album on that comment or review. So far, based on how I feel and MY views, I haven't found an album or song of Prince that I did not like. I happen to love them all lol.

Don't you think that perhaps you're so obsessed with Prince that you've lost all sense of objectivity on the matter?

I mean, really, c'mon.... you don't think he's ever EVER written a bad song??!!

'Has the commercial success (or lack thereof) of certain albums shaped how we look back on them?'

I believe LOVESEXY is a masterpiece, and it just didn't sell in the US. I guess that's a 'no' to your question.

A lot of people here shit on the Love Symbol album because it was a "disappoinment" in the sales department ("only" 2.5 millions sold ). in other words, some people here are like, "oh yeah, Love Symbol tanked because of the lack of good singles, the raps, bad timing after the still recent success of D&P" etc." and that's bullshit. It's Prince's last real masterpiece (and TGE his last great album)

But in my case, Rave looks weaker than it really is because of the commerical failure of the whole project. I mean, is a bad album hands down, but not much worse than Emancipation, PE, MPLS or even 20Ten...

JoeTyler said:

A lot of people here shit on the Love Symbol album because it was a "disappoinment" in the sales department ("only" 2.5 millions sold ). in other words, some people here are like, "oh yeah, Love Symbol tanked because of the lack of good singles, the raps, bad timing after the still recent success of D&P" etc." and that's bullshit. It's Prince's last real masterpiece (and TGE his last great album)

But in my case, Rave looks weaker than it really is because of the commerical failure of the whole project. I mean, is a bad album hands down, but not much worse than Emancipation, PE, MPLS or even 20Ten...

Love Symbol is indeed a flawed masterpiece. Flawed because of the inclusion of The Flow and Tony M, and a masterpiece because of the rest of it. The NPG sound so tight on this album - it's definately Prince's best ever band lineup and it really shines through on songs like The Morning Papers and Damn U.

Rave is highly underrated. Wherever U Go Whatever U Do is such a beautiful track and should've been a huge hit. And I would gladly take Strange But True, ILUBIDTUA and TGRES over anything from the 00's.

MattyJam said:

JoeTyler said:

A lot of people here shit on the Love Symbol album because it was a "disappoinment" in the sales department ("only" 2.5 millions sold ). in other words, some people here are like, "oh yeah, Love Symbol tanked because of the lack of good singles, the raps, bad timing after the still recent success of D&P" etc." and that's bullshit. It's Prince's last real masterpiece (and TGE his last great album)

But in my case, Rave looks weaker than it really is because of the commerical failure of the whole project. I mean, is a bad album hands down, but not much worse than Emancipation, PE, MPLS or even 20Ten...

Love Symbol is indeed a flawed masterpiece. Flawed because of the inclusion of The Flow and Tony M, and a masterpiece because of the rest of it. The NPG sound so tight on this album - it's definately Prince's best ever band lineup and it really shines through on songs like The Morning Papers and Damn U.

Rave is highly underrated. Wherever U Go Whatever U Do is such a beautiful track and should've been a huge hit. And I would gladly take Strange But True, ILUBIDTUA and TGRES over anything from the 00's.

3121 man! 3121...

but I get your point, Strange But True is like 1000 times better than anything on MPLS ...

I don't worry about that. I know what I like and don't like.

There are things that weren't commercially successful that I love, and I really don't like "Little Red Corvette", one of the songs he's best known for.*

*Don't bother telling me I'm not a fan and other nonsense over one song. I've heard it all, and I'm not going to suddenly like it because of "persuasion"*

not for me no

MattyJam said:

I personally consider D&P to be by far his weakest album to date and yet I see it getting a lot of love on this board from fans who remember the era.

If you take away the fact that this was his last commercially successful album and just judge the material on it's own merits, it's abundantly clear that this much-celebrated album is chock full of sub-par material. From throwaway dross like Jughead and Daddy Pop to the ghastly overblown monstrosity that is Thunder. Even the better tracks like Gett Off and Live 4 Love are badly-produced and have aged dreadfully.

And yet lesser-successful albums like Rave or Emancipation get blasted all the time. If Wherever U Go Whatever U Do had been a hit for Prince instead of Lenny Kravitz, or if songs like So Far So Pleased and Face Down had achieved a similar level of chart success to Gett Off or Cream, I reckon these albums would be perceived very differently today by a lot of fans.

Thoughts?

[Edited 7/17/10 3:25am]

VERY interesting thread topic, Matty. I dig it.

Prince fandom definitely has elements of "groupthink" that reveals itself on the internet, etc. Individually, I don't think Prince fans care, but the "groupthink" or "popular opinion" often is shaped by commercial success.

Let's be honest: With every new Prince album some fans slag off on Prince for either "repeating himself" or "trying to be too current/hip/trendy".

The fact is, on the Diamonds and Pearls album, he did both in spades...and to a degree he had never done before that point.

The gangsta glam, jizz clocking, Tony M. thing Prince did from '91 to '93 was less organic/natural and less Prince like than anything we heard on MPLSound. Yet, because of the chart success, promotion, and general popularity of Prince in 1991, Diamonds and Pearls,and also , often get a free pass.

Don't get me wrong, I love Diamonds and Pearls, , etc... but it is bewildering that some fans can stomach songs like "Jughead", "Push", "Pope", and "The Flow" and criticize songs like "Chocolate Box", "Lolita", or "Ol' School Company".

Maybe it's nostalgia too. The venom that used to be sprayed at New Power Soul, Chaos and Disorder, and Come has cooled way off since the 90's.

[Edited 7/17/10 9:15am]

Totally agree Skywalker.

all albums good except PE!

I've never let the commercial success of any artist reflect upon my liking or not liking their music. Commercial success has absolutely nothing to do with artistry and talent. Music executives and record labels would like for the public to believe their is a correlation between the two but their isn't. Prince has great songs that were hits and many others that were not. They hold no difference to me.

I find it very frustrating that the albums which to some extent Put prince back on the commercial radar in the UK - predominantly Musicology, 3121 and Planet Earth - are distinctly average at best.

With each new release I look forward to the possibility of his music reaching a wider commercial audience and a new generation of fans, only for the general public to wonder what all the fuss is about - "No wonder he gives them away for free..."

Lotusflower/MPLSound was generally a much better collection, albeit still patchy in some places, and downright unwanted in others (Elixir!). However, it carried a bloated price tag and a limited release in the UK.

Diamonds and Pearls, one of his last hugely successful albums in the UK, suffered from the same curse. It was basically shit with a bit of glitter on it. It seems that, when Prince feels pressure to perform commercially, he loses that spark of genius which permeates albums such as The Gold Experience.

No. For instance, I think "3121" is easily best of the zeroes (and it's better than all of his late ninties albums as well). But it certainly didn't sell as well as "Musicology", where the mainstream fell back in love with Prince (well, for that short time).

"Purple Rain" great but not as great as "Sign O the Times".

That being said, I don't have any kind of soft spot for albums just because they didn't sell.

Bambiesque said:

Diamonds and Pearls was basically shit with a bit of glitter on it.

It's funny because it's true.

VinnyM27 said:

For instance, I think "3121" is easily best of the zeroes

Replace the word "best" with "worst" and I agree with everything you've said.

skywalker said:

Prince fandom definitely has elements of "groupthink" that reveals itself on the internet, etc. Individually, I don't think Prince fans care, but the "groupthink" or "popular opinion" often is shaped by commercial success.

This is so true.

If there was a clap-hands smilie, I'd be using it right now.

MattyJam said:

skywalker said:

Prince fandom definitely has elements of "groupthink" that reveals itself on the internet, etc. Individually, I don't think Prince fans care, but the "groupthink" or "popular opinion" often is shaped by commercial success.

This is so true.

If there was a clap-hands smilie, I'd be using it right now.

This one?

MattyJam said:

VinnyM27 said:

For instance, I think "3121" is easily best of the zeroes

Replace the word "best" with "worst" and I agree with everything you've said.

Everyone has different opinions, I guess. I just put on D&P the other day and I agree. While I think the singles (and to an extent "Thunder" are gems, there is a lot of blah there).

i dont know, the albums i like the best tend to be the least succesful ones and bashed by a lot of people here. but ive always been happy not going with the crowd

MattyJam said:

I personally consider D&P to be by far his weakest album to date and yet I see it getting a lot of love on this board from fans who remember the era.

If you take away the fact that this was his last commercially successful album and just judge the material on it's own merits, it's abundantly clear that this much-celebrated album is chock full of sub-par material. From throwaway dross like Jughead and Daddy Pop to the ghastly overblown monstrosity that is Thunder. Even the better tracks like Gett Off and Live 4 Love are badly-produced and have aged dreadfully.

And yet lesser-successful albums like Rave or Emancipation get blasted all the time. If Wherever U Go Whatever U Do had been a hit for Prince instead of Lenny Kravitz, or if songs like So Far So Pleased and Face Down had achieved a similar level of chart success to Gett Off or Cream, I reckon these albums would be perceived very differently today by a lot of fans.

Thoughts?

[Edited 7/17/10 3:25am]

Yeah, it probably has, at least as far as a few albums are concerned.

Also, I wholeheartedly agree with you about Diamonds and Pearls. It may have been a big hit but in general I find the album to be very weak. For me, "Gett Off" is an awful song and I've never understood it's appeal.

Speaking for myself Chaos and Disorder was my first Prince album and I don't think I was attracted to that album due to it's sterling chart performance.

[Edited 7/18/10 12:00pm]

MattyJam said:

I personally consider D&P to be by far his weakest album to date and yet I see it getting a lot of love on this board from fans who remember the era.

If you take away the fact that this was his last commercially successful album and just judge the material on it's own merits, it's abundantly clear that this much-celebrated album is chock full of sub-par material. From throwaway dross like Jughead and Daddy Pop to the ghastly overblown monstrosity that is Thunder. Even the better tracks like Gett Off and Live 4 Love are badly-produced and have aged dreadfully.

And yet lesser-successful albums like Rave or Emancipation get blasted all the time. If Wherever U Go Whatever U Do had been a hit for Prince instead of Lenny Kravitz, or if songs like So Far So Pleased and Face Down had achieved a similar level of chart success to Gett Off or Cream, I reckon these albums would be perceived very differently today by a lot of fans.

Thoughts?

[Edited 7/17/10 3:25am]

D&P was awful. It was the full on start of the end of his golden period. It's inexplicable to me why people would give praise to such pap.

You know, people LOVE to give props to TGE around here, too. But that wasn't a successful record at all.

JudasLChrist said:

MattyJam said:

I personally consider D&P to be by far his weakest album to date and yet I see it getting a lot of love on this board from fans who remember the era.

If you take away the fact that this was his last commercially successful album and just judge the material on it's own merits, it's abundantly clear that this much-celebrated album is chock full of sub-par material. From throwaway dross like Jughead and Daddy Pop to the ghastly overblown monstrosity that is Thunder. Even the better tracks like Gett Off and Live 4 Love are badly-produced and have aged dreadfully.

And yet lesser-successful albums like Rave or Emancipation get blasted all the time. If Wherever U Go Whatever U Do had been a hit for Prince instead of Lenny Kravitz, or if songs like So Far So Pleased and Face Down had achieved a similar level of chart success to Gett Off or Cream, I reckon these albums would be perceived very differently today by a lot of fans.

Thoughts?

[Edited 7/17/10 3:25am]

D&P was awful. It was the full on start of the end of his golden period. It's inexplicable to me why people would give praise to such pap.

You know, people LOVE to give props to TGE around here, too. But that wasn't a successful record at all.

Well, there are different types of success. Certainly in commercial terms the album was not successful but creatively I think it was extremely successful.

I personally think that the lack of commercial success doesn´t make me love a good album less. I adore "TRC" or "Come" as great collections of music, though they weren´t sucessful commercially.

But I would agree that the commercial sucess of an album (or single) that I don´t appreciate that much musically can make me like it more. A good example for me would be "The Most Beautiful Girl In The World". I don´t love that song that much (though I love the TGE-period), but by becoming his first no. 1 in the UK, being his first independent single-release and being a great success commercially I cerzainly appreciate it more than I would have otherwise.

And: Commercial success brings some other benefits sometimes like great videoclips, tours, remixes etc. so the results of success can be great.

I would say that the vast majority of people simply tend to like whatever music they are exposed to the most. So if you would make a poll - not just among dedicated fans but regular people - on which are "Prince's best albums", I'm sure that list would correlate quite exactly with sales figures and airplay. Purple Rain and 1999 would be on top, New Power Soul would be in the bottom, etc.