BklynDiamond said:

TheRIP said:

I'm certainly endorsing affirmative action as far as Princes band goes, but I'm curious as to why Prince went from having extremely racially diverse bands (Revolution, Lovesexy) to very little diversity. I know this is nothing new, being that he's only had one one white dude, going as far back as 1990, but I wonder why this is. Is it simply because he prefers a black band or because there aren't many white musicians who play his style of music?

If you eliminate Prince himself from the equation, from the beginning he only had 2 black men in his band (Andre and Dez). When Andre left he brought in Brown Mark, when Dez left he brought in Wendy.

Through the Revolution period (after PR) it was only him and Mark. When he disbanded the Revolution and the "NPG" started to form he had Dr. Fink, Shelia on drums at first and Madhouse (racial diverse).

Based on this (just my observations) I don't think Prince has a preference but maybe it is just who is available who he feels he can jive with at the time he is looking for a replacement.

For a period of time it was only women on Keyboards (once Fink left - Bonnie, Rosie).

I really don't think he looks past can they play, will they do as I say, can I jam with them.

Maybe not even in that order.

Fink was still there when Bonnie left, I don't recall a time he only had female keyboardists

Fink on the GB - HitnRun 1990 tour

I don't recall if he was on the Diamonds & Pearls tour or album

Huggiebear said:

I think there are several reasons.

1. Prince's band members now do little more than play instruments and pander to Prince. I think he got tired of people like Lisa and Wendy and Cat, who wanted to create their own groups within a group, maybe he felt like, he's in charge, he makes all the music, they play it. If they are coming up with their own ideas and rising above their station, then it affects Prince's sound, in the mid 80s he was more tolerant, but now its about him. Monolithic but true.

2. The sound of his music is alot more urban/black and therefore he needs players who are schooled in that sound. Prince's music in the 80s was more pop/ rock orientated along with the funk. I know this point has been done to death, but also now the musical segregation of the early 80s is not so pronounced anymore, a black person dosen't have to sound white to crossover anymore. I mean ok some black groups are still limited by the music they play, but a lot of hip hop and urban soul, r and b, slow jamz etc have massive success in white markets as well as black and its black and racially diverse groups now that have mega hits like the Black Eyed Peas (2 black, 1 Filipino and one mixed race - Stacey has something in her). The 80s Prince was compared to Jimi Hendrix and Sly stone only because he was Black and white people in his group. No one would generalise like that today.

3. Maybe he feels safe around these 'kinfolk' and like some of you say, white players might bring too much attitude and autonomistic thinking to the group.

4. Maybe all the African American players have been chosen for their skills in their instruments, their quickness to pick up the set and the tunes, Prince gives them, as well as their eagerness to please and even though Prince is a control freak, he loves to let his players improvise and solo on stage at times, even to let off steam I guess.

5. Or maybe I am wrong, hes going through so many peole because the music is changing, or his set choices are, and hes just not happy with their playing.

6. The recent bands are not as fixed as they used to be, and maybe thats a sign Prince likes to mix it up, also many of his guys are in and out like the Dunhams and Neto. This maybe to make every concert sound different from the last.

Those are just some thoughts. But yes I have noticed an emphasis on Black band members, and this reflects the fact his music is more black than it was in those wanna be white 80s.

If that's true then why don't the women he date reflect that same safe kinfolk attitude...

All the white players I remember of the 80's had a 'this is my place and I'm devoted to his career' attitude. Wendy & Lisa even more so. It was Cat & Bonnie that cause Prince to question the following musicians on their loyalties. He said to Rosie something to the affect 'is this a stepping stone for you... are you going to jump ship like Bonnie'

the band members and proteges of the 80's as a whole were dedicated to what Prince was doing. No matter what their racial designation consisted off.

There was a lot of fusion in the 80's music wasn't so racially defined in my opinion

So labelling the musicians then with race and music genre didn't work, even now sometimes

Dez (black) was totally Rock / Metal, NOT funk rnb

Wendy who was into 70's music (which was seriously rhythmic and funky)

the Time was mostly AA

Vanity 6 was visually mixed

Jill Jones was visually mixed

Sheila E's band was racially mixed

the Family was racially mixed

Mazarati was mostly AA even with 1 hispanic(I believe) 1 white 1 mixed identified guy Tony Christian

Madhouse racially mixed

[Edited 6/30/10 12:38pm]

Brofie said:

2elijah said:

It just seems rather strange that since he did the Ebony issue, how all these questions are being raised regarding race. This is a man who has various musicians/artists from various, racial backgrounds in his band throughout his career;has dated outside his own race, and now suddenly he is being accused of being racial and gender discrimination. I thought one's ability to be a musician/artist wasn't based on their race or gender unless the rules changed.

I recall Miles Davis being questioned on white and black musicians. HE said that he could her a band on the radio and tell if it was black or white. He said the black musicians had slightly different timing and the white msuican were usually slightly off. But that is jazz and one genius perspective.

Prince can not be cited for any nonsense regarding race. The fact that the question of race has been rasied repeatedly after his Ebony, Jet, BET media exposure confirms my theory that many white fans - especially the european ones - seem to ignore or selectively forget that Prince IS a black man. And that white artists are not held this kind of racial scrutiny and criticism - a fact which is a racist concept in and of itself. They deny him the right to openly identify with his people. No one has the right to question why Prince is on the cover of Ebony when the other "non-black" publications will not put him on the cover. It is ridiculous. Here is the man that defies musical genres and cultural classifiaction more than any major artist alive and someone has the audacity to question diversity in his bands.

Damn. I'm actually agreeing with you Brofie on some parts of your posts. I've noticed that too after the Ebony issue came out, that there's been quite a number of posts regarding Prince and race, and posts being created by some orgers inquiring why Ebony is a Black magazine and why there's a Black Entertainment Television channel. Getting back to Prnce and his past/present band members, I think a lot of fans can't let go of the 80s Prince because it was a mixed-race band. But over the years, he constantly changed his band members, but many fans want to keep him attached to the 80s band members. It seems Prince has moved on, but many of his fans haven't.

[Edited 6/30/10 12:44pm]

2elijah said:

Brofie said:

I recall Miles Davis being questioned on white and black musicians. HE said that he could her a band on the radio and tell if it was black or white. He said the black musicians had slightly different timing and the white msuican were usually slightly off. But that is jazz and one genius perspective.

Prince can not be cited for any nonsense regarding race. The fact that the question of race has been rasied repeatedly after his Ebony, Jet, BET media exposure confirms my theory that many white fans - especially the european ones - seem to ignore or selectively forget that Prince IS a black man. And that white artists are not held this kind of racial scrutiny and criticism - a fact which is a racist concept in and of itself. They deny him the right to openly identify with his people. No one has the right to question why Prince is on the cover of Ebony when the other "non-black" publications will not put him on the cover. It is ridiculous. Here is the man that defies musical genres and cultural classifiaction more than any major artist alive and someone has the audacity to question diversity in his bands.

Damn. I'm actually agreeing with you Brofie on some parts of your posts. I've noticed that too after the Ebony issue came out, that there's been quite a number of posts regarding Prince and race, and posts being created by some orgers inquiring why Ebony is a Black magazine and why there's a Black Entertainment Television channel. Getting back to Prnce and his past/present band members, I think a lot of fans can't let go of the 80s Prince because it was a mixed-race band. But over the years, he constantly changed his band members, but many fans want to keep him attached to the 80s band members. It seems Prince has moved on, but many of his fans haven't.

[Edited 6/30/10 12:44pm]

We miss the Prince of the 80's because the formula worked. His music and style of today can't even come close.

TheRIP said:

2elijah said:

Damn. I'm actually agreeing with you Brofie on some parts of your posts. I've noticed that too after the Ebony issue came out, that there's been quite a number of posts regarding Prince and race, and posts being created by some orgers inquiring why Ebony is a Black magazine and why there's a Black Entertainment Television channel. Getting back to Prnce and his past/present band members, I think a lot of fans can't let go of the 80s Prince because it was a mixed-race band. But over the years, he constantly changed his band members, but many fans want to keep him attached to the 80s band members. It seems Prince has moved on, but many of his fans haven't.

[Edited 6/30/10 12:44pm]

We miss the Prince of the 80's because the formula worked. His music and style of today can't even come close.

So go listen 2 Lada gaga.

Graycap23 said:

TheRIP said:

We miss the Prince of the 80's because the formula worked. His music and style of today can't even come close.

So go listen 2 Lada gaga.

Why?

TheRIP said:

Graycap23 said:

So go listen 2 Lada gaga.

Why?

What is the point of your complaints?

Have fun trolling.

Peace.

Graycap23 said:

TheRIP said:

Why?

What is the point of your complaints?

Have fun trolling.

Peace.

Last time I checked, this thread was up to seven pages, and on FIRE!

TheRIP said:

2elijah said:

Damn. I'm actually agreeing with you Brofie on some parts of your posts. I've noticed that too after the Ebony issue came out, that there's been quite a number of posts regarding Prince and race, and posts being created by some orgers inquiring why Ebony is a Black magazine and why there's a Black Entertainment Television channel. Getting back to Prnce and his past/present band members, I think a lot of fans can't let go of the 80s Prince because it was a mixed-race band. But over the years, he constantly changed his band members, but many fans want to keep him attached to the 80s band members. It seems Prince has moved on, but many of his fans haven't.

[Edited 6/30/10 12:44pm]

We miss the Prince of the 80's because the formula worked. His music and style of today can't even come close.

But that's just it. He is not the Prince of the 80s now. He's moved on, and doesn't have anything to prove anymore. He's obtained the fan base he sought out over the years. The Prince of the 80s was trying to achieve a level of stardom during his career at that time, and he has managed to do that during 80s and beyond, which is why many fans, such as yourself today, crave for the 80s Prince today. He's already reached that plateau of stardom with his music, and established a multiracial fan base over the years.

He has a 30-year plus catalogue, where you and other fans can purchase music from that era or other eras of interest, and play his music at anytime during your lifetime and reflect on it for your listening pleasure. But today, Prince is a musician of 2010, and seems to just enjoy playing live in various places around the world, and working with band members, whom he has a right to choose without anyone's permission, to participate in his band, as well as, enjoying his spare time checking out/enjoying the music of other artists he seems to enjoy.

[Edited 6/30/10 13:32pm]

Spinlight, Thank you for your kind words and for your level-headed and well articulated ideas also. And, forgive me for how I am inserting your quotes. I don’t know how to reply using multiple quotes.

Spinlight said: I don't know that I think that being universal equates to being less African American or more European American…Education about racism is important, but I don't think that it helps to favor separatist beliefs. Isn't this what people fought for? Desegregation?

In theory, of course, being universal does not equate to being less African American or European, but in reality that term, itself, has always been used, especially in academic and politics, as a way for the people of power (in this case whites) to either seduce or force with limited opportunities of education and employment the oppressed people (in this case African Americans) to accept and define “being universal” as showing the ruling class or the class of power that they can be “like” their white counterparts. For instance, most African American women will tell you that wearing their hair naturally will limit their opportunity for employment. (This is just one example.) Of course, my response is that as long as African Americans are dependant on others for their education and employment, then they will never be able to develop their own sovereignty or autonomy. This African Americans need independent institutions (educational, economic, even social) that fosters and promotes positive images of African Americans while providing them with equal and unlimited opportunities that still do not exist in the so-called integrated institutions.

And let’s not confuse “integration” with “desegregation.” Desegregation, which is just an end to legalized discriminatory practices, is what African Americans initially desired. However, integration became the buzz word, when in fact integration was merely just supposed to be an act or a plan to test whether the country would abide by its laws of desegregation, which is, again, the end of legalized discriminatory practices. However, because so many African people still suffer from colorism—self hatred based on one’s skin color—integration became the more favorable position because far too many African Americans thought that they could purchase their human value by moving next to whites or attending schools with whites. The initial plan was to have African American schools and communities funded properly, but that was never the plan by the whites in power so those African Americans who were able to do so embraced “integration” rather than “desegregation,” and, unfortunately, “integration,” by virtue of placing African Americans even further under the umbrella of white supremacy, did not and does not have a plan for eradicating the minds of millions of African Americans who still suffer from colorism, which is why black girls still desire to play with the white doll, and black men still desire the light-skinned chick with long, silky hair because they both have internalized self hatred from living in an integrated society based on white supremacy. People can say that my words are divisive, but the tests don’t lie.

Spinlight said: I believe that if he really bought the concept of multiculture, then he would've been resistant to people who would seek to send him down a path of arrogant militantness when it comes to race. Prince, today, draws hard lines in the sand between everyone where the Prince of old erased those lines so everyone could play together. Forget the white, the black, the yellow, the brown and remember the human heart. I don't find this to be some sort of subversive white agenda. I find it to be compassion.

I don’t think that you mean to be demeaning or even marginalizing when you use the term “militant” or “militantness,” but I don’t think that it is militant for someone of an oppressed group to say or assert that African Americans need an art that provides positive images and addresses the injustices done to them or even for someone of a particular religion to assert that the believers of that particular religion should create art that celebrates their values. And, again, as we both know, words are so impregnated with dueling meanings that how you say “militant” and how I hear “militant” may have two very different meanings. Accordingly, what you may find as “militant,” I may find as just someone attempting to speak truth to power in a way that it inspires those who are being limited or oppressed by the power to fight against that power.

Spinlight said: It would appear that the less diverse Prince's band has become, the less diverse his influences have been.

I can see your point here, even if it is just in theory. I tend to see The Rainbow Children, Musicology, and Lotusflow3er/MPLS as quite diverse records, but that may speak more to my limited musical tastes than their actual diversity. My musical listening is regulated to blues, jazz (that swings within blues notes), 50s – 80s rock, doo wop/R&B/Soul, and gospel. I’ll admit that I don’t listen to a lot of world/international music that is not based in American blues or rock rhythms nor to I listen to a great deal of classical or even traditional African music. (Guess how my Black Nationalist friends feel about me when I admit that I don’t listen to traditional African music.) But, I can see that as Prince has gotten older his desire to have his musical pendulum swing to extreme ends has lessened. Of course, I don’t know if that is why his musicians have been so overwhelmingly African American. I have not noticed or thought about the color of his latest bands, but I never thought about the color of his early bands. In my head, because the three guys in front (Andre, Prince, Dez) were black, I considered it a black band. It wasn’t until I started reading all of the magazines that I realized that his band as mixed. And even then it never meant much to me other than here was a dude who was looking for other artists to make his sound varied. However, I don’t think that just because the band members are mostly black or white that the sound will automatically be less varied. (I know that you are not asserting that.) Most young blues guitarists that I see are white. As a black man from the Mississippi Delta, I’ll admit that it used to bother me, but at the end of the day it’s all about one thing for me: Can they play the blues. Yet, I also know that just because they can play the blues does not mean that they understand or will champion the lessening of my socio-political blues just because they can play the blues. Everything that Ted Nuget (sp) plays is based in the blues, and his politics are some of the most racist that I have ever heard.

Spinlight said:

TheRIP said:

Ah, so there it is.

But what I don't get is why he would feel disconnected from his black audience. When did they ever leave him?

There's been comments about how his audience at his shows began predominately black and became more diverse throughout the 80s. Growing up in DC, all my Black friends knew songs like "Do Me Baby" and all my white friends knew songs like "Raspberry Beret." There was a big shift there in his target audience for a while.

Didn't know you grew up in DC. Are you still there? I'm actually in the Baltimore area and have been here for most of my life.

RIP said: I don't think his music sucking has anything to do with race, but with his lack of new ideas. I don't think he should try to pander to any racial group. Many people of many races put a lot of money in his pockets, so he should respect us all

We’ll agree to disagree about his state of music post 2000. I think that “Colonized Mind” as well as many the majority of tracks released after 2000 are excellent. So, on that we just disagree. So, since they don’t “suck” to me, I can’ t comment on that. However, I don’t think that being an African American who wants to explore or engage African American culture is “pandering.” Just because you or someone else may have been able to erase that he is an African American does not actually erase the fact that he is an African American. People should be free to explore all aspects of themselves. I find it interesting, if not hypocritical, that as long as Prince was exploring artistic elements and styles that are more popular among a high number of white listeners that he was cool. However, when he explores or engages artistic elements and styles that are more popular among a high number of African American listeners then he is “pandering” or being “fake.” I hope that you don’t mean your assertion in this way, but your words seem to infer that African Americans care so little about themselves, their history, and their culture because it is inferior to European history and culture that any time an African American seeks to engage and explore their own history and culture then they must be lying or pandering. Finally, just because an African American desires to engage, explore, and show respect for his culture does not mean that he does not respect the culture of others. To be pro-Black is not tantamount to being simultaneously anti-white. Additionally, if we understand that “truth” is a philosophical thing and fact is a scientific empirical thing, then of course two people from two different backgrounds can view an event or even a fact and have differing interpretations. However, just because Prince has chosen to say things and write songs, such as “Avalanche,” does not mean that he disrespects other races just because he wants to discuss what he sees as the truth about the history of African people in America. And to extend this thought to its full extent, just because I purchase art from someone in the past does not mean that he owes me anything when he creates new art. Purchasing someone’s art only means that you liked that particular art. After that purchase, that artist owes me nothing.

RIP said: It is sad. Larry Graham got inside his head and he allowed him and the JW religion to mess with his mind in a negative way. What the hell ever happened to just being spiritual?

So you have a right to dictate how Prince should define and seek spiritual information and enlightenment, but he does not have the right to share his ideas on spirituality with you or express them in his songs? For some people just being spiritual isn’t enough; for some it is. But it is hypocritical of you to put forth or infer (in the passive aggressive manner) a definition that Prince should follow if you are also going to complain about how he chooses to seek spiritual knowledge and share it with others. Wouldn’t it just be better to stop listening to Prince and frequenting a website developed to study and celebrate his work rather that just to be pissed about his new work? I’m not saying that you don’t have a right to express your opinions, but if his current art and the ideology expressed by that art is such an affront to your sensibilities, then why waste the time following or commenting on him? I would rather spend time engaging artists that move me rather than engaging artists whose whole way of life is anti my whole way of life.

RIP said: You seriously gonna bring Reagan into this? He had absolutely nothing to do with the state of music. Rock and hip hop was around before and well after him. It's comments like yours that are polarizing and divisive.

Elected officials are symbols of the times. As the old saying goes, people don’t elect the politicians they need; they elect the ones they deserve. Now, we don’t have time to get into why Reagan’s first speech when he began his campaign for the presidency was in Mississippi and what was said in that speech and how it symbolized and manifested the white conservative reaction to what they perceived as a Civil Rights onslaught. Yet, the Regan administration, as the apex and symbol of this growing tide, helped to propel often by providing the language for people to code words that couched their racism in a “so-called” conservative agenda. Thus, by the time we are mid-way through the nineties, the rise of Grunge has some—not all—of the same driving elements that late Seventies Rock had in his reaction to and its overthrow of Disco, which culminated with tens of thousands of white Rock fans burning Disco records at a major league baseball field. So, the Reagan administration (its policies) is the symbol of a growing tide of white musicians and listeners who grew tired of a music chart dominated by Michael Jackson, Prince, and, later, hip hop. I can’t remember the actual Grunge band, but I remember the fans and other bands being as happy about the song removing Jackson from the number one spot as it was for the success of the Grunge genre.

TheRIP said:

I'm certainly not endorsing affirmative action as far as Princes band goes, but I'm curious as to why Prince went from having extremely racially diverse bands (Revolution, Lovesexy) to very little diversity. I know this is nothing new, being that he's only had one one white dude, going as far back as 1990, but I wonder why this is. Is it simply because he prefers a black band or because there aren't many white musicians who play his style of music?

[Edited 6/29/10 11:14am]

I hate when ppl pull out the race card, maybe those are the ppl he is most comfortable with, his current band is full of GOOD LOYAL PPL, they just all happen to be BLACK, he is BLACK for goodness sake, let them be, *EYE ROLL*

WisdomNLove said:

TheRIP said:

I'm certainly not endorsing affirmative action as far as Princes band goes, but I'm curious as to why Prince went from having extremely racially diverse bands (Revolution, Lovesexy) to very little diversity. I know this is nothing new, being that he's only had one one white dude, going as far back as 1990, but I wonder why this is. Is it simply because he prefers a black band or because there aren't many white musicians who play his style of music?

[Edited 6/29/10 11:14am]

I hate when ppl pull out the race card, maybe those are the ppl he is most comfortable with, his current band is full of GOOD LOYAL PPL, they just all happen to be BLACK, he is BLACK for goodness sake, let them be, *EYE ROLL*

Don't you know that makes "some" people uncomfortable. They have tons of rnb records of the greats (and not so greats) and hip hop etc etc but how many bkack people do they actually KNOW or hang with?

Come on now poeople its 2010...let's all stop frontin'

alexnvrmnd777 said:

Spinlight said:

There's been comments about how his audience at his shows began predominately black and became more diverse throughout the 80s. Growing up in DC, all my Black friends knew songs like "Do Me Baby" and all my white friends knew songs like "Raspberry Beret." There was a big shift there in his target audience for a while.

Didn't know you grew up in DC. Are you still there? I'm actually in the Baltimore area and have been here for most of my life.

Naw, not anymore. I spent a brief year in Minneapolis, then in Atlanta, and have been in San Francisco for the past (almost) 6 years.

xlr8r said:

WisdomNLove said:

I hate when ppl pull out the race card, maybe those are the ppl he is most comfortable with, his current band is full of GOOD LOYAL PPL, they just all happen to be BLACK, he is BLACK for goodness sake, let them be, *EYE ROLL*

Don't you know that makes "some" people uncomfortable. They have tons of rnb records of the greats (and not so greats) and hip hop etc etc but how many bkack people do they actually KNOW or hang with?

Come on now poeople its 2010...let's all stop frontin'

when I said those are the type of ppl he is probably most comfortable with I was referring to the types of personalisties and characteristics of the kind of ppl that are in that band, NOT THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN, I said it right after "they just happen to all be BLACK" they are good loyal people who just happen to be black. the only person who has to be worried about being "comfortable" with the band is PRINCE and if he choses to hang with black people more THATS HIS BUSINESS. if it makes anyone uncomfortable that TALENTED musicians who happen to be BLACK are playing with him, dont go to the shows or watch the performances, its that simple.

regarding the other comments I have no clue what you are talking about records and what not.

I am done with this post.

LOVE LOVE LOVE PRINCES BAND! rock on!!!!!!

2elijah said:

TheRIP said:

We miss the Prince of the 80's because the formula worked. His music and style of today can't even come close.

But that's just it. He is not the Prince of the 80s now. He's moved on, and doesn't have anything to prove anymore. He's obtained the fan base he sought out over the years. The Prince of the 80s was trying to achieve a level of stardom during his career at that time, and he has managed to do that during 80s and beyond, which is why many fans, such as yourself today, crave for the 80s Prince today. He's already reached that plateau of stardom with his music, and established a multiracial fan base over the years.

He has a 30-year plus catalogue, where you and other fans can purchase music from that era or other eras of interest, and play his music at anytime during your lifetime and reflect on it for your listening pleasure. But today, Prince is a musician of 2010, and seems to just enjoy playing live in various places around the world, and working with band members, whom he has a right to choose without anyone's permission, to participate in his band, as well as, enjoying his spare time checking out/enjoying the music of other artists he seems to enjoy.

[Edited 6/30/10 13:32pm]

Look, I'll be the first to say that Prince needs to do what makes himself happy, above everything else in this world. I got that. But we still have the right to express our views. We all have hopes of a gear shift with this guy.

berniejobs said:

Slightly on topic, but just out of curiousity:

What the heck is Renato Neto? Chinese?

Chinese. I got this crazy impression diverse is diverse no matter what the mixture is, silly me. That question got asked earlier and it was obvious that person doesn't really keep track of who's in Prince's band anyway.

Renato is Brazilian.

I read the title of the thread and thought: "What? Prince's band can play funk, RnB, pop, rock, hip hop, folk .. whatever they want. They're plenty diverse"

But then I realized .. I don't really get Americans sometimes.

This is interesting, why?

Cravens said:

I read the title of the thread and thought: "What? Prince's band can play funk, RnB, pop, rock, hip hop, folk .. whatever they want. They're plenty diverse"

But then I realized .. I don't really get Americans sometimes.

This is interesting, why?

We are sick with racism in America - more than any place on the planet.

1725topp said:

We’ll agree to disagree about his state of music post 2000. I think that “Colonized Mind” as well as many the majority of tracks released after 2000 are excellent. So, on that we just disagree. So, since they don’t “suck” to me, I can’ t comment on that. However, I don’t think that being an African American who wants to explore or engage African American culture is “pandering.” Just because you or someone else may have been able to erase that he is an African American does not actually erase the fact that he is an African American. People should be free to explore all aspects of themselves. I find it interesting, if not hypocritical, that as long as Prince was exploring artistic elements and styles that are more popular among a high number of white listeners that he was cool. However, when he explores or engages artistic elements and styles that are more popular among a high number of African American listeners then he is “pandering” or being “fake.” I hope that you don’t mean your assertion in this way, but your words seem to infer that African Americans care so little about themselves, their history, and their culture because it is inferior to European history and culture that any time an African American seeks to engage and explore their own history and culture then they must be lying or pandering. Finally, just because an African American desires to engage, explore, and show respect for his culture does not mean that he does not respect the culture of others. To be pro-Black is not tantamount to being simultaneously anti-white. Additionally, if we understand that “truth” is a philosophical thing and fact is a scientific empirical thing, then of course two people from two different backgrounds can view an event or even a fact and have differing interpretations. However, just because Prince has chosen to say things and write songs, such as “Avalanche,” does not mean that he disrespects other races just because he wants to discuss what he sees as the truth about the history of African people in America. And to extend this thought to its full extent, just because I purchase art from someone in the past does not mean that he owes me anything when he creates new art. Purchasing someone’s art only means that you liked that particular art. After that purchase, that artist owes me nothing.

I think you're going way too deep into this and you seem to imply that I have some issue with Prince connecting to his culture. I don't have an issue with that. However, being that Prince used to be all about diversity, and now is less so, some fans may be lead to believe that Prince has a problem with white people to some degree. And I know being "pro black" is supposed to be a positive, and not anti-white, but would the term "pro-white be just as accepted by any other race?

1725topp said:
So you have a right to dictate how Prince should define and seek spiritual information and enlightenment, but he does not have the right to share his ideas on spirituality with you or express them in his songs? For some people just being spiritual isn’t enough; for some it is. But it is hypocritical of you to put forth or infer (in the passive aggressive manner) a definition that Prince should follow if you are also going to complain about how he chooses to seek spiritual knowledge and share it with others. Wouldn’t it just be better to stop listening to Prince and frequenting a website developed to study and celebrate his work rather that just to be pissed about his new work? I’m not saying that you don’t have a right to express your opinions, but if his current art and the ideology expressed by that art is such an affront to your sensibilities, then why waste the time following or commenting on him? I would rather spend time engaging artists that move me rather than engaging artists whose whole way of life is anti my whole way of life.

I have every right to express my views about ANYTHING. I find pleasure in expressing these views and having various discussions and debates with others who have opinions on these topics. Having been a huge Prince fan for may years, I am disappointed by many of the choices Prince has made, though occasionally he does do something I like. For this reason, I still hang on from time to time.

1725topp said:
Elected officials are symbols of the times. As the old saying goes, people don’t elect the politicians they need; they elect the ones they deserve. Now, we don’t have time to get into why Reagan’s first speech when he began his campaign for the presidency was in Mississippi and what was said in that speech and how it symbolized and manifested the white conservative reaction to what they perceived as a Civil Rights onslaught. Yet, the Regan administration, as the apex and symbol of this growing tide, helped to propel often by providing the language for people to code words that couched their racism in a “so-called” conservative agenda. Thus, by the time we are mid-way through the nineties, the rise of Grunge has some—not all—of the same driving elements that late Seventies Rock had in his reaction to and its overthrow of Disco, which culminated with tens of thousands of white Rock fans burning Disco records at a major league baseball field. So, the Reagan administration (its policies) is the symbol of a growing tide of white musicians and listeners who grew tired of a music chart dominated by Michael Jackson, Prince, and, later, hip hop. I can’t remember the actual Grunge band, but I remember the fans and other bands being as happy about the song removing Jackson from the number one spot as it was for the success of the Grunge genre.

You're all over the place here. I really don't know how to respond because one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other and you're being extremely vague and cryptic.

WisdomNLove said:

TheRIP said:

I'm certainly not endorsing affirmative action as far as Princes band goes, but I'm curious as to why Prince went from having extremely racially diverse bands (Revolution, Lovesexy) to very little diversity. I know this is nothing new, being that he's only had one one white dude, going as far back as 1990, but I wonder why this is. Is it simply because he prefers a black band or because there aren't many white musicians who play his style of music?

[Edited 6/29/10 11:14am]

I hate when ppl pull out the race card, maybe those are the ppl he is most comfortable with, his current band is full of GOOD LOYAL PPL, they just all happen to be BLACK, he is BLACK for goodness sake, let them be, *EYE ROLL*

How do you know how loyal they are?

crusader said:

Cravens said:

I read the title of the thread and thought: "What? Prince's band can play funk, RnB, pop, rock, hip hop, folk .. whatever they want. They're plenty diverse"

But then I realized .. I don't really get Americans sometimes.

This is interesting, why?

We are sick with racism in America - more than any place on the planet.

Is that Louis Farrakhan as your avatar? Now THAT'S a guy who knows how to ignite some racism.

crusader said:

Cravens said:

I read the title of the thread and thought: "What? Prince's band can play funk, RnB, pop, rock, hip hop, folk .. whatever they want. They're plenty diverse"

But then I realized .. I don't really get Americans sometimes.

This is interesting, why?

We are sick with racism in America - more than any place on the planet.

yes But you can understand some of it by way of South African apartied

our racism is connected with the justification of African slave labor + religious idealogy

It went for so long and the country is so diverse that it's hard to completely change the country, every state in America is like a country itself.

I could read your posts for days, lol. I love em.

1725: The initial plan was to have African American schools and communities funded properly, but that was never the plan by the whites in power so those African Americans who were able to do so embraced “integration” rather than “desegregation,” and, unfortunately, “integration,” by virtue of placing African Americans even further under the umbrella of white supremacy, did not and does not have a plan for eradicating the minds of millions of African Americans who still suffer from colorism, which is why black girls still desire to play with the white doll, and black men still desire the light-skinned chick with long, silky hair because they both have internalized self hatred from living in an integrated society based on white supremacy

Doesn't this sort of relate right to the part where I talked about militant separatism? I didn't mean for the term "militant" backed with "arrogant" to sound offensive, honestly. What I think I don't understand is the shift of swagger. I almost sense indignation in some of Prince's records. When I first heard "Dear Mr. Man" I was really put off. Not necessarily because what he said was untrue, but because it continued to paint an Us vs Them picture. As you can probably tell from my past responses, I have a bit of an idealistic approach to racism and would rather people just surrender their arms and get along. I know, this will sound cheesy, but a white person in the USA (or a Chinese person in China, a Palestinian or Jew near Gaza, etc) could grow up and exist completely independent of their race/country's social issues and still be painted with the same brush. How often are "Americans" deemed fat, stupid, and war-hungry when... Really only 1 of those things is predominantly true? I find placing "white guilt" or harboring "colorism" are both fruitless endeavors. Am I wrong?

[Edited 7/1/10 9:48am]

1725topp said:

Spinlight said:

What's pretty interesting, though, is his continued use of white-washing in his promo artwork. From some of those really powdered-faced pics from 1993 to 20TEN's cover image of him looking straight up Caucasian. I don't care about Prince's racial politics, but I am surprised that no one has ever taken issue with that. Normally, when a black artist pays constant homage to the perception that white = beauty, they are pretty widely criticized.

You seem to be very knowledgeable about Prince so I find it interesting that you do not know that from 1984 to about 2000 Prince was heavily criticized about his seeming preference for whiteness: sound, his hair and demeanor, and the women he dated. Now, I'll admit that if one was not a fan who existed mostly within the African American community and read books and magazines that catered to African American readership then one may not have known this. For instance, when Prince toured in 1996/7 and I was waiting in line to purchase a ticket with mostly white fans, and a white female said to me: "I work in an office with a lot of black people, and I told them that I was going to the Prince concert, and they were not excited or concerned at all." She then asked, "Why don't black people like Prince?" It was hot, and I wasn't in the mood for a prolonged discussion about race and art at that moment, so I just said, "I hope he plays an equal combination of old and new tunes."

It has only been recently since Prince's popularity has risen, again, in the black community en masse. I don't know why it has happened exactly though I do think it has something to do with many black writers and other black artists being more forthright about Prince being recognized as a treasure of the African American community along with his own seeming desire to reconnect with that audience. (I don't know is that is the reason for why he chooses his band members.) For example, people like Stephen Hill, an exec and major shot-caller at BET, and Tavis Smiley, regardless of how many feel about him, go to great lengths to celebrate him as a great “African American” icon.

So, Prince has spent years being criticized by members of the African American community for not being "black enough." As an African American I did understand the criticism, and as a Prince fan I respected his courage to be who he wanted to be regardless of how it made others feel. What I do find interesting (and I'm not saying this of the member who began the thread) is that as long as Prince was saying F-the world and was willing to alienate African Americans, many whites celebrated him for having the courage to be an individual. Now that he has done more to commune with the African American community, many whites see him as being fake or pandering or no longer having the creativity or courage to be the hybrid individual that they have come to love. Again, I’m not accusing you or the member who started this thread of this, but that change in attitude can clearly be seen. All you have to do is check the posts by many during the BET Awards Show.

Love your post, very interesting comments.

1725topp said:

RIP said: I don't think his music sucking has anything to do with race, but with his lack of new ideas. I don't think he should try to pander to any racial group. Many people of many races put a lot of money in his pockets, so he should respect us all

We’ll agree to disagree about his state of music post 2000. I think that “Colonized Mind” as well as many the majority of tracks released after 2000 are excellent. So, on that we just disagree. So, since they don’t “suck” to me, I can’ t comment on that. However, I don’t think that being an African American who wants to explore or engage African American culture is “pandering.” Just because you or someone else may have been able to erase that he is an African American does not actually erase the fact that he is an African American. People should be free to explore all aspects of themselves. I find it interesting, if not hypocritical, that as long as Prince was exploring artistic elements and styles that are more popular among a high number of white listeners that he was cool. However, when he explores or engages artistic elements and styles that are more popular among a high number of African American listeners then he is “pandering” or being “fake.” I hope that you don’t mean your assertion in this way, but your words seem to infer that African Americans care so little about themselves, their history, and their culture because it is inferior to European history and culture that any time an African American seeks to engage and explore their own history and culture then they must be lying or pandering. Finally, just because an African American desires to engage, explore, and show respect for his culture does not mean that he does not respect the culture of others. To be pro-Black is not tantamount to being simultaneously anti-white. Additionally, if we understand that “truth” is a philosophical thing and fact is a scientific empirical thing, then of course two people from two different backgrounds can view an event or even a fact and have differing interpretations. However, just because Prince has chosen to say things and write songs, such as “Avalanche,” does not mean that he disrespects other races just because he wants to discuss what he sees as the truth about the history of African people in America. And to extend this thought to its full extent, just because I purchase art from someone in the past does not mean that he owes me anything when he creates new art. Purchasing someone’s art only means that you liked that particular art. After that purchase, that artist owes me nothing.

RIP said: It is sad. Larry Graham got inside his head and he allowed him and the JW religion to mess with his mind in a negative way. What the hell ever happened to just being spiritual?

So you have a right to dictate how Prince should define and seek spiritual information and enlightenment, but he does not have the right to share his ideas on spirituality with you or express them in his songs? For some people just being spiritual isn’t enough; for some it is. But it is hypocritical of you to put forth or infer (in the passive aggressive manner) a definition that Prince should follow if you are also going to complain about how he chooses to seek spiritual knowledge and share it with others. Wouldn’t it just be better to stop listening to Prince and frequenting a website developed to study and celebrate his work rather that just to be pissed about his new work? I’m not saying that you don’t have a right to express your opinions, but if his current art and the ideology expressed by that art is such an affront to your sensibilities, then why waste the time following or commenting on him? I would rather spend time engaging artists that move me rather than engaging artists whose whole way of life is anti my whole way of life.

RIP said: You seriously gonna bring Reagan into this? He had absolutely nothing to do with the state of music. Rock and hip hop was around before and well after him. It's comments like yours that are polarizing and divisive.

Elected officials are symbols of the times. As the old saying goes, people don’t elect the politicians they need; they elect the ones they deserve. Now, we don’t have time to get into why Reagan’s first speech when he began his campaign for the presidency was in Mississippi and what was said in that speech and how it symbolized and manifested the white conservative reaction to what they perceived as a Civil Rights onslaught. Yet, the Regan administration, as the apex and symbol of this growing tide, helped to propel often by providing the language for people to code words that couched their racism in a “so-called” conservative agenda. Thus, by the time we are mid-way through the nineties, the rise of Grunge has some—not all—of the same driving elements that late Seventies Rock had in his reaction to and its overthrow of Disco, which culminated with tens of thousands of white Rock fans burning Disco records at a major league baseball field. So, the Reagan administration (its policies) is the symbol of a growing tide of white musicians and listeners who grew tired of a music chart dominated by Michael Jackson, Prince, and, later, hip hop. I can’t remember the actual Grunge band, but I remember the fans and other bands being as happy about the song removing Jackson from the number one spot as it was for the success of the Grunge genre.

Again, 175Stopp, you make some very interesting points on this topic. Very well stated.

I think the "R" label given to people is way over used and one must be carful labeling sombody as such. That being said, lets all not just bury our head in the sand and act like we don't see these changes with Prince. Us long time fans are NOT trying to relive the 80's but rather many enjoyed the fact the Prince showed the world how the races can come together and make a beautiful sound. As a previous posted stated, he erased the lines in the sand and we all bought into it and it was and still is a really cool concept. But somewhere along the way, Prince was perceived and he also bought into the fact that he was made to have guilt feelings about alienating his "black audience" so he then has been over compensating for that for 15 or so years now. Not just with band members but with lyrics just pounding race issues over and over. Some cool like the song "Race" which just basically says we are fundamentally all the same but more and more it is just the typical media push of the "evil white man". It is also strange that he has chosen to stress this concept at this point since he has been a celebrity for the vast majority of his life so I can't imagine the he has been persecuted to much due to his race. Believe me, there are many more doors open to him than me, one of the evil white American males. I just miss the whole message of inclusion. Even the concept of the term Rainbow Children I thought was a return to that feeling but the CD art work let me know that was not the case.

As far as muscianship goes, there are tons of talented musicians in all shapes, sexes and colors but I do believe there is a feeling of white males need not apply. If you think he is still wide open and looking for the "best" musicians possible even that doesn't fly with me as he does not even have the best that are in his circle as you can't tell me that Maceo is a better saxaphonist than Eric Leeds whose style I much prefer. I watched him at one of the celebrations basically ignore Matt Fink and totally disrespect Booby Z but than acted like F-ing Q-Tip and Jill Scott were the second coming. Totally unacceptable.

Prince, you have been a good friend and a source of some great times for me and I will continue to support you even if your latest music has not touched as stuff from before but just truly practice the Christian values that seem to be such a strong part of your life.

BTW, my feelings have nothing to do with the recent articles in Ebony and Jet as I have felt this for many years. In fact hats off to those 2 publications for featuring him even if the interviews were very soft, still thanks for the read.