TheRIP said:

I'm certainly not endorsing affirmative action as far as Princes band goes, but I'm curious as to why Prince went from having extremely racially diverse bands (Revolution, Lovesexy) to very little diversity. I know this is nothing new, being that he's only had one one white dude, going as far back as 1990, but I wonder why this is. Is it simply because he prefers a black band or because there aren't many white musicians who play his style of music?

[Edited 6/29/10 11:14am]

Someone has probably already stated the obvious, but regarding his past multi-racial bands, especially in the early days, Prince quite accurately stated that "you never would have drank my coffee, if I had never served you cream".

Since you've all tasted his coffee, lightened with a little cream way back when, he's been slowly going back to just plain-old strong black coffee.

I remember reading somewhere that around 1990, he cast a nearly all-black band so that he could reconnect with his black audience, due to people saying he was selling out and/or not the same anymore.

You can see it around that time because he also started incorporating rap into his music as a deliberate attempt to, again, connect with his black audience and have them think he was cool again, in the midst of the whole gangsta rap emergence. He even softened his androgynous look a LITTLE bit for this as well ("gangster glam").

In the late 90 until present, I don't he really gives a shit! But yes, earlier he DID choose his band members with race in mind to project a certain image. But, he has since dropped that notion.

alexnvrmnd777 said:

You can see it around that time because he also started incorporating rap into his music as a deliberate attempt to, again, connect with his black audience and have them think he was cool again, in the midst of the whole gangsta rap emergence. He even softened his androgynous look a LITTLE bit for this as well ("gangster glam").

Brothas in Compton weren't feeling gangsta glam bikini and 'spenders outfit I bet.

xlr8r said:

Because yall want to give credit to Princes greatest works to white people or that he needed 'white help.'

Now don't get mad that I said that.

Yes, there is sometimes a nasty undercurrent in the post made here on the org. Unfortunately.

[Edited 6/29/10 17:51pm]

xlr8r said:

alexnvrmnd777 said:

You can see it around that time because he also started incorporating rap into his music as a deliberate attempt to, again, connect with his black audience and have them think he was cool again, in the midst of the whole gangsta rap emergence. He even softened his androgynous look a LITTLE bit for this as well ("gangster glam").

Brothas in Compton weren't feeling gangsta glam bikini and 'spenders outfit I bet.

Didn't say they would. But, he eased up a teeny bit on the feminine look for the mainstream black audience.

alexnvrmnd777 said:

xlr8r said:

Brothas in Compton weren't feeling gangsta glam bikini and 'spenders outfit I bet.

Didn't say they would. But, he eased up a teeny bit on the feminine look for the mainstream black audience.

Brothas in Compton weren't really feeling the ass cut out pants.

NouveauDance said:

I haven't been able to keep up with who's in and who's out since around Emancipation era, so the NPG could be full of little green Martians for all I know, never mind black or white.

See how the mind works ? It has the capacity to erase the most horrible memories.

Like Larry Graham.

..Oh no. Not those post-traumatic flashes again!

2elijah said:

TheRIP said:

How do you know?

Because there's many Prince fans here, who would have revealed that information, about some of his band members by now.

[Edited 6/29/10 14:02pm]

The Prince fans here don't know everything.

babynoz said:

Post 1990...

Candy Dulfer

Rhonda Smith

RAD

Renato Neto

Tommy Barbarella

Mayte Garcia

Elisa Fiorillo

Bria Valente

Yikes!

xlr8r said:

Because yall want to give credit to Princes greatest works to white people or that he needed 'white help.'

Now don't get mad that I said that.

lol

BlackandRising said:

TheRIP said:

I'm certainly not endorsing affirmative action as far as Princes band goes, but I'm curious as to why Prince went from having extremely racially diverse bands (Revolution, Lovesexy) to very little diversity. I know this is nothing new, being that he's only had one one white dude, going as far back as 1990, but I wonder why this is. Is it simply because he prefers a black band or because there aren't many white musicians who play his style of music?

[Edited 6/29/10 11:14am]

Someone has probably already stated the obvious, but regarding his past multi-racial bands, especially in the early days, Prince quite accurately stated that "you never would have drank my coffee, if I had never served you cream".

Since you've all tasted his coffee, lightened with a little cream way back when, he's been slowly going back to just plain-old strong black coffee.

His coffee tastes like shit.

alexnvrmnd777 said:

I remember reading somewhere that around 1990, he cast a nearly all-black band so that he could reconnect with his black audience, due to people saying he was selling out and/or not the same anymore.

You can see it around that time because he also started incorporating rap into his music as a deliberate attempt to, again, connect with his black audience and have them think he was cool again, in the midst of the whole gangsta rap emergence. He even softened his androgynous look a LITTLE bit for this as well ("gangster glam").

In the late 90 until present, I don't he really gives a shit! But yes, earlier he DID choose his band members with race in mind to project a certain image. But, he has since dropped that notion.

Ah, so there it is.

But what I don't get is why he would feel disconnected from his black audience. When did they ever leave him?

xlr8r said:

Because yall want to give credit to Princes greatest works to white people or that he needed 'white help.'

Now don't get mad that I said that.

Your underlying, subconscious (or not even subconscious) issues with racism are at play here. Not anyone else's.

People saying that Prince (who grew up on primarily R&B and soul music) did his best and most innovative work when he was surrounded by a more diverse group of people (aka not exclusively Black) have a valid point. One does not need to cater to the "white audience" to make it big. I would dare you to tell George Clinton, Hendrix, James Brown, Al Green, or Sly Stone that they were pandering to white audiences.

[Edited 6/29/10 20:25pm]

Who gives a damn?

TheRIP said:

alexnvrmnd777 said:

I remember reading somewhere that around 1990, he cast a nearly all-black band so that he could reconnect with his black audience, due to people saying he was selling out and/or not the same anymore.

You can see it around that time because he also started incorporating rap into his music as a deliberate attempt to, again, connect with his black audience and have them think he was cool again, in the midst of the whole gangsta rap emergence. He even softened his androgynous look a LITTLE bit for this as well ("gangster glam").

In the late 90 until present, I don't he really gives a shit! But yes, earlier he DID choose his band members with race in mind to project a certain image. But, he has since dropped that notion.

Ah, so there it is.

But what I don't get is why he would feel disconnected from his black audience. When did they ever leave him?

There's been comments about how his audience at his shows began predominately black and became more diverse throughout the 80s. Growing up in DC, all my Black friends knew songs like "Do Me Baby" and all my white friends knew songs like "Raspberry Beret." There was a big shift there in his target audience for a while.

Spinlight said:

TheRIP said:

Ah, so there it is.

But what I don't get is why he would feel disconnected from his black audience. When did they ever leave him?

There's been comments about how his audience at his shows began predominately black and became more diverse throughout the 80s. Growing up in DC, all my Black friends knew songs like "Do Me Baby" and all my white friends knew songs like "Raspberry Beret." There was a big shift there in his target audience for a while.

I don't know if that's really true. I saw video footage from the Dirty mind and Controversy shows. The crowds were mostly white even back then.

the race card again? uh oh.

"next time you pull a card it better be a ace muthafucka or you can lay face down" - Prince

robinhood said:

the race card again? uh oh.

"next time you pull a card it better be a ace muthafucka or you can lay face down" - Prince

The more we discuss it, the less taboo it is.

TheRIP said:

robinhood said:

the race card again? uh oh.

"next time you pull a card it better be a ace muthafucka or you can lay face down" - Prince

The more we discuss it, the less taboo it is.

bullshit.

TheRIP said:

Spinlight said:

There's been comments about how his audience at his shows began predominately black and became more diverse throughout the 80s. Growing up in DC, all my Black friends knew songs like "Do Me Baby" and all my white friends knew songs like "Raspberry Beret." There was a big shift there in his target audience for a while.

I don't know if that's really true. I saw video footage from the Dirty mind and Controversy shows. The crowds were mostly white even back then.

lol, Take it up with Bobby Z an nem who talk about it.

Spinlight said:

xlr8r said:

Because yall want to give credit to Princes greatest works to white people or that he needed 'white help.'

Now don't get mad that I said that.

Your underlying, subconscious (or not even subconscious) issues with racism are at play here. Not anyone else's.

People saying that Prince (who grew up on primarily R&B and soul music) did his best and most innovative work when he was surrounded by a more diverse group of people (aka not exclusively Black) have a valid point.

See what I mean?

Spinlight said:

TheRIP said:

I don't know if that's really true. I saw video footage from the Dirty mind and Controversy shows. The crowds were mostly white even back then.

lol, Take it up with Bobby Z an nem who talk about it.

What did they say?

xlr8r said:

Spinlight said:

Your underlying, subconscious (or not even subconscious) issues with racism are at play here. Not anyone else's.

People saying that Prince (who grew up on primarily R&B and soul music) did his best and most innovative work when he was surrounded by a more diverse group of people (aka not exclusively Black) have a valid point.

See what I mean?

I really think you need to see a therapist to deal with your emotions about race.

hey , therip

you know your name is slang for an easy female/ho/slut where i come from

ex. karen is some rip, that girl did the whole neighborhood

that girl is the rip of the year for doing all those dude

Spinlight said:

What's pretty interesting, though, is his continued use of white-washing in his promo artwork. From some of those really powdered-faced pics from 1993 to 20TEN's cover image of him looking straight up Caucasian. I don't care about Prince's racial politics, but I am surprised that no one has ever taken issue with that. Normally, when a black artist pays constant homage to the perception that white = beauty, they are pretty widely criticized.

You seem to be very knowledgeable about Prince so I find it interesting that you do not know that from 1984 to about 2000 Prince was heavily criticized about his seeming preference for whiteness: sound, his hair and demeanor, and the women he dated. Now, I'll admit that if one was not a fan who existed mostly within the African American community and read books and magazines that catered to African American readership then one may not have known this. For instance, when Prince toured in 1996/7 and I was waiting in line to purchase a ticket with mostly white fans, and a white female said to me: "I work in an office with a lot of black people, and I told them that I was going to the Prince concert, and they were not excited or concerned at all." She then asked, "Why don't black people like Prince?" It was hot, and I wasn't in the mood for a prolonged discussion about race and art at that moment, so I just said, "I hope he plays an equal combination of old and new tunes."

It has only been recently since Prince's popularity has risen, again, in the black community en masse. I don't know why it has happened exactly though I do think it has something to do with many black writers and other black artists being more forthright about Prince being recognized as a treasure of the African American community along with his own seeming desire to reconnect with that audience. (I don't know is that is the reason for why he chooses his band members.) For example, people like Stephen Hill, an exec and major shot-caller at BET, and Tavis Smiley, regardless of how many feel about him, go to great lengths to celebrate him as a great “African American” icon.

So, Prince has spent years being criticized by members of the African American community for not being "black enough." As an African American I did understand the criticism, and as a Prince fan I respected his courage to be who he wanted to be regardless of how it made others feel. What I do find interesting (and I'm not saying this of the member who began the thread) is that as long as Prince was saying F-the world and was willing to alienate African Americans, many whites celebrated him for having the courage to be an individual. Now that he has done more to commune with the African American community, many whites see him as being fake or pandering or no longer having the creativity or courage to be the hybrid individual that they have come to love. Again, I’m not accusing you or the member who started this thread of this, but that change in attitude can clearly be seen. All you have to do is check the posts by many during the BET Awards Show.

PicklesMcMillan said:

hey , therip

you know your name is slang for an easy female/ho/slut where i come from

ex. karen is some rip, that girl did the whole neighborhood

that girl is the rip of the year for doing all those dude

Should I care? I mean really, what's your point of going off topic?

1725topp said:

Spinlight said:

What's pretty interesting, though, is his continued use of white-washing in his promo artwork. From some of those really powdered-faced pics from 1993 to 20TEN's cover image of him looking straight up Caucasian. I don't care about Prince's racial politics, but I am surprised that no one has ever taken issue with that. Normally, when a black artist pays constant homage to the perception that white = beauty, they are pretty widely criticized.

You seem to be very knowledgeable about Prince so I find it interesting that you do not know that from 1984 to about 2000 Prince was heavily criticized about his seeming preference for whiteness: sound, his hair and demeanor, and the women he dated. Now, I'll admit that if one was not a fan who existed mostly within the African American community and read books and magazines that catered to African American readership then one may not have known this. For instance, when Prince toured in 1996/7 and I was waiting in line to purchase a ticket with mostly white fans, and a white female said to me: "I work in an office with a lot of black people, and I told them that I was going to the Prince concert, and they were not excited or concerned at all." She then asked, "Why don't black people like Prince?" It was hot, and I wasn't in the mood for a prolonged discussion about race and art at that moment, so I just said, "I hope he plays an equal combination of old and new tunes."

It has only been recently since Prince's popularity has risen, again, in the black community en masse. I don't know why it has happened exactly though I do think it has something to do with many black writers and other black artists being more forthright about Prince being recognized as a treasure of the African American community along with his own seeming desire to reconnect with that audience. (I don't know is that is the reason for why he chooses his band members.) For example, people like Stephen Hill, an exec and major shot-caller at BET, and Tavis Smiley, regardless of how many feel about him, go to great lengths to celebrate him as a great “African American” icon.

So, Prince has spent years being criticized by members of the African American community for not being "black enough." As an African American I did understand the criticism, and as a Prince fan I respected his courage to be who he wanted to be regardless of how it made others feel. What I do find interesting (and I'm not saying this of the member who began the thread) is that as long as Prince was saying F-the world and was willing to alienate African Americans, many whites celebrated him for having the courage to be an individual. Now that he has done more to commune with the African American community, many whites see him as being fake or pandering or no longer having the creativity or courage to be the hybrid individual that they have come to love. Again, I’m not accusing you or the member who started this thread of this, but that change in attitude can clearly be seen. All you have to do is check the posts by many during the BET Awards Show.

I don't think his music sucking has anything to do with race, but with his lack of new ideas. I don't think he should try to pander to any racial group. Many people of many races put a lot of money in his pockets, so he should respect us all.

1725topp said:

Spinlight said:

What's pretty interesting, though, is his continued use of white-washing in his promo artwork. From some of those really powdered-faced pics from 1993 to 20TEN's cover image of him looking straight up Caucasian. I don't care about Prince's racial politics, but I am surprised that no one has ever taken issue with that. Normally, when a black artist pays constant homage to the perception that white = beauty, they are pretty widely criticized.

You seem to be very knowledgeable about Prince so I find it interesting that you do not know that from 1984 to about 2000 Prince was heavily criticized about his seeming preference for whiteness: sound, his hair and demeanor, and the women he dated. Now, I'll admit that if one was not a fan who existed mostly within the African American community and read books and magazines that catered to African American readership then one may not have known this. For instance, when Prince toured in 1996/7 and I was waiting in line to purchase a ticket with mostly white fans, and a white female said to me: "I work in an office with a lot of black people, and I told them that I was going to the Prince concert, and they were not excited or concerned at all." She then asked, "Why don't black people like Prince?" It was hot, and I wasn't in the mood for a prolonged discussion about race and art at that moment, so I just said, "I hope he plays an equal combination of old and new tunes."

It has only been recently since Prince's popularity has risen, again, in the black community en masse. I don't know why it has happened exactly though I do think it has something to do with many black writers and other black artists being more forthright about Prince being recognized as a treasure of the African American community along with his own seeming desire to reconnect with that audience. (I don't know is that is the reason for why he chooses his band members.) For example, people like Stephen Hill, an exec and major shot-caller at BET, and Tavis Smiley, regardless of how many feel about him, go to great lengths to celebrate him as a great “African American” icon.

So, Prince has spent years being criticized by members of the African American community for not being "black enough." As an African American I did understand the criticism, and as a Prince fan I respected his courage to be who he wanted to be regardless of how it made others feel. What I do find interesting (and I'm not saying this of the member who began the thread) is that as long as Prince was saying F-the world and was willing to alienate African Americans, many whites celebrated him for having the courage to be an individual. Now that he has done more to commune with the African American community, many whites see him as being fake or pandering or no longer having the creativity or courage to be the hybrid individual that they have come to love. Again, I’m not accusing you or the member who started this thread of this, but that change in attitude can clearly be seen. All you have to do is check the posts by many during the BET Awards Show.

Being a minority myself, I do understand the concept of wanting to be grounded closer to people who are Just Like You (saying this with tongue firmly in cheek). I always thought that part of Prince's message was about being universally appealing and not caring about color lines or politics such as that. "White, Black, Puerto Rican - everybody just-a freakin'" and whatnot. It was, in part, Prince's teachings that allowed myself and many others to become more accepting of people's differences. It was inspiring to me that someone's individuality was more important than being too Black, not Black enough, too White, not White enough, etc. I don't like the concept of "acting Black" or "acting White" - this is two-way hypocritical racism and it invalidates and sets back civil rights every time it creeps into the general public's vernacular.

Thus, it was very unfortunate to me when I read an interview around the time of the release of The Rainbow Children where Prince stated that we shouldn't champion our differences rather than our similarities. At first glance, I took this to mean that we are all human and we all have compassion and love in our hearts and these are cornerstones we need to get back to and refamiliarize ourselves with. Social constructs have a way of dehumanizing us. I thought, how wonderful that Prince still believes - even with such strong religious and exclusionary beliefs - that we are all one nation under a groove. Eventually, though, I began to realize that this was not the case and he was referring more to our subcultures of Black, European, etc. This, to me, is devastating when you look back on Prince's career where it didn't matter what someone's race was, what their sexuality was, etc. It, thus, made people like me feel like he was judging me. Around the same time (if not a couple years earlier), it was widely circulated he had made unfavorable remarks about Wendy and Lisa being gay. This was equally devastating for me and people like me who felt this was him judging gay people and seeing them in a negative light when gay people have been one of the most sizable groups in his fanbase.

Slightly on topic, but just out of curiousity:

What the heck is Renato Neto? Chinese?

Surprised no one made the Hendrix connection - he went the same route for the same reasons. Unfortunately he wasn't around that long afterwards so it's less obvious.

I think whoever said things about where he feels most comfortable came close. That may include some submerged racist tendencies or may just be a legitimate cultural thing...

I do think that you can distinguish the nineties - where it seems to be about regaining credibility with the black community - with the noughties, where he seems to have become more race-conscious and the attitude may be more political.

To be honest (and not wanting to open another worm-can), being Jewish with the family name Pearlman, I've been a little wary of his racial politics since '02...