OldFriends4Sale said:

lol pride goeth be4 a fall

2 know something is wrong and still walk that way?

alright I done wringing U out,

Seeing Shelby with Prince at the BET Awards really made me miss the Twinz

Why?

Reel said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Listen, your not the voice of African Americans

Decided is the key, not a biological truth.

The problem is anyone outside of American racial pathology get's lumped as black mostly by other African-Americans, even if the person doesn't identify as such.

Even in the Caribbean Black & Mulatto are 2 seperate groups.

You obviously are choosing to read my posts with an attitute. I never said we should use those historic term. I did say those were historic terms.

lol I know Vanessa Williams is not biracial,

Neither was Walter White or Adam Clayton Powell Jr but they both could pass for white with no problem and did at times.

Your the soul patrol huh

A large population refuses to use the term African-American, because they say we have no cultural connections and no recent anything African. Even most Africans will not consider African-American such. They say Black-American, because their evolution as people is not African.

First of all, I never said that I speak for all African Americans...HOWEVER...seeing that I AM an African American, I have more insight into the culture than you do. What I have tried to do was further educate you on American culture and the FACT that most black people do not go around in this present day considering themselves quadroons and octoroons. It's just a fact! Just because I stated this fact does not mean that I'm some how "speaking for blacks", I'm just educating you.

Now, it is obvious that individuals with African ancestry that live in other countries MAY NOT necessarily view themselves in terms of "Black and White". Though I heard Sade in an interview say "We as Black People"....and she is bi-racial, and she is European, and she considers herself black so that goes to say that even in Europe some bi-racial people consider themeselves black!

As far as what Caribbean blacks consider themselves, it ALL depends on who you ask. Some consider themselves "Coolie" which indicates a Arawak / African mixture, some just consider themselves Black...Some don't even identify with race period. They'll just say "I'm Trinidadian" etc. Those islands were colonized by several European / American countries and the attitudes regarding race concerning the natives is likewise reflected.

As far as me having an attitude...I dont. I'm merely telling you that in AMERICA we do not generally "piece meal" our racial idenity.

I agree with you Reel, people are not going to go around saying they are partial this or that. I honestly think many people in this society have a problem with African-Americans or Blacks in general, who embrace or define themselves as "Black or African-American".

I've noticed some folks here act like it's a damn curse or crime to associate with being Black, I also find that many biracial (black/white) individuals here, tend to pull away from their black ancestry as though it's a curse, but will find all kinds of ways to embrace their white side with more pride, as though it puts them one level above being human, based on some fake superiority BS. I think it's a shame. As far as Caribbeans, yes many from the islands tend to define themselves by the name of the island they are from which is more representative of their "culture", moreso than their skin color, yet the majority of them do embrace who they are. I believe most people don't want to understand that Blacks did not set up this race system, but moreso it was forced upon many of their ancestors,which is no fault of their descendants living today, who choose to embrace their African ancestry as part of them.

As generations went by, as a whole, many Blacks created our own cultures, yet embracing and giving values to the African ancestry that runs through our veins, even if we do not know who our past ancestors were by name or exactly what African ethnic group we have within our DNA Many fail to understand that in reality. Blacks in general in America carry the DNA of many, but we don't have time to break down every part of our DNA to come up with "individual" identities, so over the years, we've created our very own culture to be embraced as a whole, and I refuse to allow anyone to diminish its value for the sake of putting themselves on some fake-ass pedestal they allowed this society to brainwash them with.

It seems no other group is harshly criticized, demeaned, questioned for their existence, more than Black people by other groups. It is not our fault that those who have stereotypical beliefs about us, as a whole, did not make the effort to educate themselves, instead of letting miseducation become their teachers.

I enjoyed your input as well as others, but quite frankly, when it comes down to it, we really don't have to give an explanation for our existence to anyone. If others have a problem with it, well they just have a lot to learn now don't they? Anyway, again, I really enjoyed your input. Don't allow "anyone" to rob you of your dignity based on their own ignorance.

paulludvig said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

lol pride goeth be4 a fall

2 know something is wrong and still walk that way?

alright I done wringing U out,

Seeing Shelby with Prince at the BET Awards really made me miss the Twinz

Why?

I think it's just the visual compliment

Most of us didn't even know that was Shelby

I'm just used 2 Prince like this

OldFriends4Sale said:

2elijah said:

I can't believe people took that line to heart from that interview. Have you ever seen black people say that to one another among other things, when joking around about their complexions and comparing their complexions to one another? It sounds to me in that interview, like Prince was pulling that woman's leg, and I don't mean in a sexual way. I know plenty of tanned white people, and if a light-skinned black person put their arms next to one of them, they may just come close in complexion. Doesn't mean that comparison changes a person's race though.

Point is, in the Ebony issue, the man clearly included himself as part of the black community, without a doubt. I guess it is what it is.

[Edited 7/2/10 22:11pm]

Well why wouldn't you take it seriously, I don't mean it's critically serious, but why not?

even the term we use are idiotic, brown and tan white people, pink fair tan black people

Race can change as anyone sees fit because it's not a biological truth, but a social construction

Black & White equivalent to Negro(id) & Caucasion are constructions based on a racial hierarchy

So Prince could easily go to South Africa and because Coloured, not black

Prince could easily got to many parts of the Caribbean & Latin America and become Mulatto and in some case even white

Prince could go to any part of Europe and be whatever

Kimora Lee Simmons includes herself as part of the black community as well. Yet she also identifies as Asian. Many people who identify as biracial or multiracial have a strong solidarity with the black community.

It's no secret the Prince has always questioned race

Why would I take that comment seriously. I know better than that. Also, let's not go there with Caribbean thing, unless you are well-informed about the culture and the concept of race in the Caribbean. Also, not everyone who is lighter-skinned in the Caribbean is considered mulatto, because many in the Caribbean are already aware of the mixtures of ethnicities that make up the Caribbean.

In the Caribbean there are blacks of all skin tones, so Prince's complexion would be no different to them, and they see the concept of race differently in the Caribbean than they do in America. The Caribbean history is no different than what happened during the transatlantic slave trade in America, and that is from the early days of slavery in the Caribbean to post-slavery. Just like in America, African slaves were brought to the islands, while the Arawaks/Tainos/Caribs were there first, and the intermixing through the slavery process took place, as well as many Natives and Africans who intermixed with one another, and a new culture was born out of it, as well as the unfortunate rapings that took place when Europeans came over from different parts of Europe, took control of the Natives, brought Africans there, raped many of the Native and African women, enslaved natives and Africans, built plantations and forced the slaves to work the fields, stole many the islands' resources and profitted from it. Secondly, if you were really informed about Blacks in general in America or the Caribbean you would have already known, that technically, American Blacks as well as Caribbean Blacks are "multiracial" so why wouldn't they connect with their own community?

I have noticed from quite a few of your posts you tend to water-down the black ancestry of birracial individuals (black/white), to move them as far away from that portion of who they are, as though when they excrete bodily waste, it has a special odor. Quite frankly, they're no different than any of us. It's not difficult to read between the lines of your posts. No offense, but sometimes you come across as full of your own sh*t.

[Edited 7/5/10 9:10am]

Reel said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

lol Soul Patrol

Things are never so plain and laid out as you make it.

Thomas Jefferson had children by his 'mulatta' slave Sally Hemmings, she went to France with him, learned skills and trade and all of her children were freed.

many children of the masta were secretly taught to read and learn a trade, sometimes, non mixed Slaves as well depending on the relationship with the Master and family.

Maybe you should watch QUEEN the story of Alex Haley(Roots) other side of the family.

Your thoughts don't come as someone studied but someone who accepts afrocentric ideas of the blue eyed devil and rape. It never fits that neatly. Slavery is nothing unique to America, the caste system that developes is very similar to any other slavery in world history.

Read up on Creole society and the placage system of Quadroon & Octoroon women setting up house with French & white men rearing children and having a 'life' Vanesse Williams starred in a made 4 tv movie spotlighting a quadroon woman who went against that system.

lol so something that happened over a 3000 yrs ago makes Italians & Sicilians black? A concept that didn't come into play until the late 1800's? That's called the 1 Drop Rule 'brutha' 1 drop of black blood makes 1 black...

lol many/woman I was born in 1972 my parent raised me very secure in who I am and my dad being a army vet made sure we knew we were American above all else, never put any "you can't do that, you can't go there in our heads" lol you funny

Is Carley Simon black since her mother is 1/2 black 1/2 white?

Well I guess the truth finally came out of you.

The One-Drop Rule

The one-drop rule is the U.S. tradition that someone of utterly European appearance who rejects an African-American self-identity is "really Black," like it or not, due to having “one drop” of known African ancestry, no matter how ancient. The notion labels such people as merely "passing for White." Recent examples are New York Times critic Anatole Broyard (a real person) and Anthony Hopkins’s character in the film "The Human Stain" (a fictional character). Such people are involuntarily classified as members of the U.S. Black endogamous group by press and public despite their European appearance and their freely chosen non-Black self-identity.

Manifestation of Conflict Between Two Myths

The one-drop rule is a manifestation of the conflict between the U.S. myth that "race" is determined by appearance (skin tone, hair texture, facial features) and the contradictory but equally strongly held myth that "race" is determined by ancestry. ("Myth" in this context simply denotes a mandatory belief taught to young Americans in order to exemplify social standards that they will be expected to follow in adulthood.) On the one hand, most Americans agree that someone who looks Black is Black, even if their parents did not self-identify as African Americans (African-looking immigrants from Cuba, for instance). But most Americans also agree that someone born into the African-American community who looks completely White is also Black in some intangible sense.

Unique to the United States

It is hard for residents of other countries to grasp that the notion of invisible Blackness is widely accepted, and often legally enforced, in the United States today. To most people around the world, the claim that someone "looks White but is really Black" is as nonsensical as saying that someone "looks tall but is really short, just passing as tall" or "looks fat but is really thin, just passing as fat." In every other nation on earth, if you look White and consider yourself White, then you are White.

Unique to the Black/White U.S. Dichotomy

An American may legally claim to be 1/4 Cherokee, 1/4 Irish, or 1/4 Russian and still choose some other ethnic self-identity (German, say). But an American who admits to being 1/4 Black is not given such a choice. Unlike every other U.S. ethnicity, you cannot legally choose to be partly African-American. The one-drop rule is enforced at the highest levels of the U.S. federal government. If you check off more than one "race" box in the U.S. census and one of the boxes was "Black" then you are classified as solely Black, no matter how many other boxes you checked. (See for example New Life for the "One Drop" Rule or New Policy on Census Says Those Listed as White and Minority Will Be Counted as Minority.)

Historically Had Nothing to do With Slavery

Like most U.S. myths regarding that nation's unique endogamous color line, folkloric tradition says that it has something to do with slavery. Specifically, popular culture as well as U.S. academia, liberals as well as conservatives, teach Americans to blame long-dead slavery for their currently enforced polity. (This resembles the way that Americans blame slavery for their racialism and their endogamous color line, although slavery was ubiquitous while the latter phenomena remain unique to the United States.)

The actual legal connection between slavery and physical appearance was precisely the reverse. A person of any visible European ancestry was presumed to be free. The court cases Gobu v. Gobu (1802 NC), Hudgins v. Wrights (1806 VA), and Adelle v. Beauregard (1810 LA) established the U.S. caselaw that if you had any discernible European ancestry you were presumed free, and the burden was on the alleged slave owner to prove that you were legally a slave through matrilineal descent. This law was then followed in hundreds of court cases without exception until U.S. slavery was ended by the 13th Amendment.

Even a cursory examination of the historical court case records shows that the notion of invisible Blackness first appeared in the free states of the Ohio valley in the 1830s, was not accepted in the south until long after the Civil war, and first became statutory in 1910.

Historically Enforced More by Blacks Than by Whites

Except for one 50-year period of U.S. history, the one-drop rule has been believed more strongly and enforced more harshly by African-American political leaders than by White Americans.

The exceptional period was the Jim Crow era of state-sponsored terrorism against its African-American citizens. During the Jim Crow period, which ended around 1965, the one-drop rule kept compassionate White families in line by legally exiling to Blackness any who defended Blacks against the terror. During this period, the one-drop rule was never legally applied in court to any family who self-identified as Black. It was used only against Whites.

In all other periods, from the 1830s to today, the one-drop rule was and remains an instrument of intra-ethnic coercion by African American political leaders against those born into the African American community who choose to self-identify as something other than "Black" in adulthood.

Sounds like you are on some sort of journey to "redeem" yourself as multi-cultural and to point out why all light complexioned blacks are "not really black". I'm going to kill this discussion because you have not added to my knowledge, and I appear to definitely not be adding to yours. Many black people are WELL AWARE of what you posted, yet we STILL continue to identify as we wish...BLACK!

So you can take your post and pass them on to people who somehow "don't know".

(Bolded part) Reel, you are 100% on point about OFFS, Something he does quite often. It is never hard to read between the lines of his posts and yet he preaches about this country's intention of the one-drop rule, and the "race" system, but unfortunately has allowed himself to become a "victim" of that system with his segregated beliefs and misguided information.

I guess I wild have to bypass his nonsense and misguided information as well.

[Edited 7/5/10 9:33am]

OldFriends4Sale said:

paulludvig said:

I think it's just the visual compliment

Most of us didn't even know that was Shelby

I'm just used 2 Prince like this

I love Shelby but, I kinda agree with you. I love The Twinz too ... LoL

Interesting discussion. Let me stress at the outset of my comments that I, too, hope and work for racial reconciliation and understanding. In the interests of strengthening that understanding, I say the following:

The notion that blacks enforce the "one-drop" standard of racial categorization more than whites is laughable.

While I think, historically, black Americans encouraged others with more-obvious black-and-other heritages to self-identify as black Americans out of a desire for ethnic unity and solidarity, I think arguing that they're somehow more adamant about it than whites ignores some factors:

1) This race-based system of America is not one constructed by black Americans. We've been the ones (with the help from progressive whites and others) fighting to assert our rights as citizens and humans, to no longer be thought of as 3/5 a white person.

2) This racial system in America -- codified in law books, fueling America's growth and its very financial engine -- was based on the subjugation of the other, the nonwhite. And, while American slavery and Jim Crow are past, part of the country's heritage and its distribution of wealth continue to hinge upon and perpetuate that racial system of White and Other.

A number of years ago, I worked with a white man who'd gotten into trouble with management for insulting the city's blacks while giving her the tour of the city he gave all new hires. Unbeknownst to him, this extremely light-skinned, straight hair-having beauty was a black woman. And, she reported him.

He thought he was talking to another white person. With his guard down, he made a comment that referenced and sought to perpetuate the standard of White and Other in America. Say what you will about blacks holding each other hostage to the concept of skin color, ethnicity and adversarial outlooks.

But understand that "whites" who know of their black heritage (at least 1 in 5 white Americans, from the study I heard in college, has some black in their family tree) are less than forthcoming about it for a reason.

I think it's that prism one has to view Prince's early obfuscations and fictionalizing about his heritage. I also think it's that prism one has to view the endless consternation over how strong/white-loving/Muslim/threatening/foreign President Obama seems. At the end of the day, he's an Other.

[Edited 7/5/10 11:25am]

2elijah said:

Reel said:

First of all, I never said that I speak for all African Americans...HOWEVER...seeing that I AM an African American, I have more insight into the culture than you do. What I have tried to do was further educate you on American culture and the FACT that most black people do not go around in this present day considering themselves quadroons and octoroons. It's just a fact! Just because I stated this fact does not mean that I'm some how "speaking for blacks", I'm just educating you.

Now, it is obvious that individuals with African ancestry that live in other countries MAY NOT necessarily view themselves in terms of "Black and White". Though I heard Sade in an interview say "We as Black People"....and she is bi-racial, and she is European, and she considers herself black so that goes to say that even in Europe some bi-racial people consider themeselves black!

As far as what Caribbean blacks consider themselves, it ALL depends on who you ask. Some consider themselves "Coolie" which indicates a Arawak / African mixture, some just consider themselves Black...Some don't even identify with race period. They'll just say "I'm Trinidadian" etc. Those islands were colonized by several European / American countries and the attitudes regarding race concerning the natives is likewise reflected.

As far as me having an attitude...I dont. I'm merely telling you that in AMERICA we do not generally "piece meal" our racial idenity.

I agree with you Reel, people are not going to go around saying they are partial this or that. I honestly think many people in this society have a problem with African-Americans or Blacks in general, who embrace or define themselves as "Black or African-American".

I've noticed some folks here act like it's a damn curse or crime to associate with being Black, I also find that many biracial (black/white) individuals here, tend to pull away from their black ancestry as though it's a curse, but will find all kinds of ways to embrace their white side with more pride, as though it puts them one level above being human, based on some fake superiority BS. I think it's a shame. As far as Caribbeans, yes many from the islands tend to define themselves by the name of the island they are from which is more representative of their "culture", moreso than their skin color, yet the majority of them do embrace who they are. I believe most people don't want to understand that Blacks did not set up this race system, but moreso it was forced upon many of their ancestors,which is no fault of their descendants living today, who choose to embrace their African ancestry as part of them.

As generations went by, as a whole, many Blacks created our own cultures, yet embracing and giving values to the African ancestry that runs through our veins, even if we do not know who our past ancestors were by name or exactly what African ethnic group we have within our DNA Many fail to understand that in reality. Blacks in general in America carry the DNA of many, but we don't have time to break down every part of our DNA to come up with "individual" identities, so over the years, we've created our very own culture to be embraced as a whole, and I refuse to allow anyone to diminish its value for the sake of putting themselves on some fake-ass pedestal they allowed this society to brainwash them with.

It seems no other group is harshly criticized, demeaned, questioned for their existence, more than Black people by other groups. It is not our fault that those who have stereotypical beliefs about us, as a whole, did not make the effort to educate themselves, instead of letting miseducation become their teachers.

I enjoyed your input as well as others, but quite frankly, when it comes down to it, we really don't have to give an explanation for our existence to anyone. If others have a problem with it, well they just have a lot to learn now don't they? Anyway, again, I really enjoyed your input. Don't allow "anyone" to rob you of your dignity based on their own ignorance.

And I appreciate and enjoyed your dialogue. You definitely are very knowlegeable about this issues, history, and attitudes facing our community. I enjoyed reading your thoughts. I guess everyone will create their "own truths", their own way to exist and feel better about themselves. Too bad that some people appear to want to deny or minimize their African roots. But that's their problem...not mine. I'm an EMBRACER!

2elijah said:

Reel said:

Sounds like you are on some sort of journey to "redeem" yourself as multi-cultural and to point out why all light complexioned blacks are "not really black". I'm going to kill this discussion because you have not added to my knowledge, and I appear to definitely not be adding to yours. Many black people are WELL AWARE of what you posted, yet we STILL continue to identify as we wish...BLACK!

So you can take your post and pass them on to people who somehow "don't know".

(Bolded part) Reel, you are 100% on point about OFFS, Something he does quite often. It is never hard to read between the lines of his posts and yet he preaches about this country's intention of the one-drop rule, and the "race" system, but unfortunately has allowed himself to become a "victim" of that system with his segregated beliefs and misguided information.

I guess I wild have to bypass his nonsense and misguided information as well.

[Edited 7/5/10 9:33am]

Yep, then he tries to project his own feelings of inadequacy onto others. Damned shame. But that's what victims of the system do. <shrug>.

OldFriends4Sale said:

paulludvig said:

I think it's just the visual compliment

Most of us didn't even know that was Shelby

I'm just used 2 Prince like this

Who's Shelby?

2elijah said:

Reel said:

Sounds like you are on some sort of journey to "redeem" yourself as multi-cultural and to point out why all light complexioned blacks are "not really black". I'm going to kill this discussion because you have not added to my knowledge, and I appear to definitely not be adding to yours. Many black people are WELL AWARE of what you posted, yet we STILL continue to identify as we wish...BLACK!

So you can take your post and pass them on to people who somehow "don't know".

(Bolded part) Reel, you are 100% on point about OFFS, Something he does quite often. It is never hard to read between the lines of his posts and yet he preaches about this country's intention of the one-drop rule, and the "race" system, but unfortunately has allowed himself to become a "victim" of that system with his segregated beliefs and misguided information.

I guess I wild have to bypass his nonsense and misguided information as well.

[Edited 7/5/10 9:33am]

U 2 are just afrocentrics who believe in the 1 Drop Rule, anyone who does bow to blackness, something is wrong with them or they don't want to acknowledge their blackness. Same old same old. The world is still changing why you try to hold on to this universal blackness

move on now

[Edited 7/6/10 7:39am]

Reel said:

2elijah said:

(Bolded part) Reel, you are 100% on point about OFFS, Something he does quite often. It is never hard to read between the lines of his posts and yet he preaches about this country's intention of the one-drop rule, and the "race" system, but unfortunately has allowed himself to become a "victim" of that system with his segregated beliefs and misguided information.

I guess I wild have to bypass his nonsense and misguided information as well.

[Edited 7/5/10 9:33am]

Yep, then he tries to project his own feelings of inadequacy onto others. Damned shame. But that's what victims of the system do. <shrug>.

Ur very much a victim of racism in America

especially when you take the ideals of racist and perpectrate them onto other people of African ancestry.

A biracial identified person can marry or be friends with a black person and not have change their racial designation.

That's what you don't get. It's a very old story your preach. It's like bullying someone. Saying something is wrong with you if you don't identify as black or if you acknowledge your white father. People did the same with Tiger Woods, they laughed at him, they put him down and said he must hate his blackness etc etc etc The Soul Patrol is a live in well keeping all people of African ancestry in check. "Your still just a nigga" cause that's how society will see you. Pointless.

And I thought you we done? Thought you were ready to get back to Prince

[Edited 7/6/10 7:34am]

ThreadBare said:

Interesting discussion. Let me stress at the outset of my comments that I, too, hope and work for racial reconciliation and understanding. In the interests of strengthening that understanding, I say the following:

The notion that blacks enforce the "one-drop" standard of racial categorization more than whites is laughable.

While I think, historically, black Americans encouraged others with more-obvious black-and-other heritages to self-identify as black Americans out of a desire for ethnic unity and solidarity, I think arguing that they're somehow more adamant about it than whites ignores some factors:

1) This race-based system of America is not one constructed by black Americans. We've been the ones (with the help from progressive whites and others) fighting to assert our rights as citizens and humans, to no longer be thought of as 3/5 a white person.

2) This racial system in America -- codified in law books, fueling America's growth and its very financial engine -- was based on the subjugation of the other, the nonwhite. And, while American slavery and Jim Crow are past, part of the country's heritage and its distribution of wealth continue to hinge upon and perpetuate that racial system of White and Other.

A number of years ago, I worked with a white man who'd gotten into trouble with management for insulting the city's blacks while giving her the tour of the city he gave all new hires. Unbeknownst to him, this extremely light-skinned, straight hair-having beauty was a black woman. And, she reported him.

He thought he was talking to another white person. With his guard down, he made a comment that referenced and sought to perpetuate the standard of White and Other in America. Say what you will about blacks holding each other hostage to the concept of skin color, ethnicity and adversarial outlooks.

But understand that "whites" who know of their black heritage (at least 1 in 5 white Americans, from the study I heard in college, has some black in their family tree) are less than forthcoming about it for a reason.

I think it's that prism one has to view Prince's early obfuscations and fictionalizing about his heritage. I also think it's that prism one has to view the endless consternation over how strong/white-loving/Muslim/threatening/foreign President Obama seems. At the end of the day, he's an Other.

[Edited 7/5/10 11:25am]

Actually it's not, because how many 'white's on this board so far have enforced the 1 Drop Rule? So far I got 2 that are in this thread and look at the characterizations they paint me with.' the One Drop Rule was put on the books by whites and they actually enforced it as far as whites were concerned to keep them in line from intermingling with anyone of african/negro blood/ancestry.

So I agree with you about those 'whites who won't acknowledge any black heritage' but it would be whites using that to keep whites in line, in most cases.

Sad thing is there is no 1 Drop Rule for Native Americans nor for Asians they can identify as they choose. They can freely have a dual identity. or they can choose to identify one way or the other or none of them.

the 1 Drop Rule is just another line of slavery and control.

But it's not whites hanging out in the academic halls of blackness, and in black neighborhoods, social groups and churches/mosques who 'enforce' it when someone brings up other ancestry. Only 1 time in my life was I told by a white person directly that I was just black. But on a regular basis by AA's

I've called uncle Tom while at the work place all because I worked behind a desk and wore a tie by a AA maintenance guy. And he outright acknowledge "I looked different, your not fully black? " etc etc And sometimes on a daily bases would come into my space to call me an uncle Tom. Now if this was a white person doing this to a black person, he could be fired. Which is what I should have done to this guy under harrassment, but I didn't want him to loose his job or anything.

Trying to get into a pizza shop and AA gentleman is sitting in front and why I try to pass "You white blacks think your better etc etc"

While in college working in a grocery store. An old black gentleman come into my line to tell me "I don't like boys who look like you" I laugh and ask why he says "because it's the boy like you that got all the girls when I was in school" I said I wish I had it like that.

Walking down the hall of a college with a female biracial friend while an AA guy called her white girl white girl white girl. And she wasn't trying to be white or black she wanted to acknowledge both of her parents. She readily walked hand in hand with her black father out in public. So there was no shame of blackness going on.

Another friend who is 1/4 black who identifies as multiracial who is married to w/kids a black person. Where is the running from blackness. And she does not identify as black.

Mariah Carey still identifies as Multiracial, she married an Italian, dated Derek Jeters, dated a latino, and married a black guy. She still identifies as multiracial. And Mariah has friend of various ethnic backgrounds. I hardly think she is ashamed of her black heritage, she talked easily of her black grandmother who raised her partially and the black pentecostal church she attends currently.

I think with most AA the idea that someone would identify as they want to that, they are hiding or running from their blackness.

Even though many of these people are in love with their black family member, have friends of all skin tones, date black or whatever. They/we will still be accussed of being self hating. That's laughable

You use a word like "encourage" like it's a good thing.

It's usually done in a a demeaning way, it's usually done in a mocking way "oh he/she is in denial or he/she is ashamed of their blackness, or he/she wants to be white" etc etc it's bullying, not encouraging. the NAACP might do it that way, but most AA aren't

My cousin who is fair skinned with long wavy hair at age 13 got beaten up after school and harrassed by a black girl (still remember her name Porsha) because in Porsha's mind: you think your prettier you think your this and that. And my cousin did think that she just was raised well and taken care of.

I have 2 friends twinz who's mother is not black and they were talking about multiracial identity with their black father and his response was "If you have 1 drop of black in you, your black now drop it"

And I just don't think it's that simple

Kids coming up now are a lot more integrate than when I was coming up.

Music styles clothing dating etc etc is a lot more intermixed

So for to hold onto blackness and whiteness like in the past is not going to do our country any good for the future. Both sides need to get over their racial power struggles.

[Edited 7/6/10 7:33am]

TheRIP said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I think it's just the visual compliment

Most of us didn't even know that was Shelby

I'm just used 2 Prince like this

Who's Shelby?

Shelby is 1 of Prince's back up singers since 3121

She was sitting next 2 Prince at the BET 2010 awards

[Edited 7/6/10 7:54am]

PurpleLove7 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I think it's just the visual compliment

Most of us didn't even know that was Shelby

I'm just used 2 Prince like this

I love Shelby but, I kinda agree with you. I love The Twinz too ... LoL

lol people can hate em all they want, I loved some Twinz

OldFriends4Sale said:

Both sides need to get over their racial power struggles.

Everyone needs to get over race altogether. It's a lame outdated concept.

OldFriends4Sale said:

TheRIP said:

Who's Shelby?

Shelby is 1 of Prince's back up singers since 3121

She was sitting next 2 Prince at the BET 2010 awards

Ah, the one kissing his ass all night.

crazydoctor said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Both sides need to get over their racial power struggles.

Everyone needs to get over race altogether. It's a lame outdated concept.

Totally agree

certain parts are so entrenched in power & class, that it's hard

the more people mix and mingle:Friends & Lovers the more it changes up

At times I still get a shock when I see on Prime Time TV or in a movie a black man in a romantic situation with a blond white women, just over 10 years ago you might not have seen that.

OldFriends4Sale said:

ThreadBare said:

Interesting discussion. Let me stress at the outset of my comments that I, too, hope and work for racial reconciliation and understanding. In the interests of strengthening that understanding, I say the following:

The notion that blacks enforce the "one-drop" standard of racial categorization more than whites is laughable.

While I think, historically, black Americans encouraged others with more-obvious black-and-other heritages to self-identify as black Americans out of a desire for ethnic unity and solidarity, I think arguing that they're somehow more adamant about it than whites ignores some factors:

1) This race-based system of America is not one constructed by black Americans. We've been the ones (with the help from progressive whites and others) fighting to assert our rights as citizens and humans, to no longer be thought of as 3/5 a white person.

2) This racial system in America -- codified in law books, fueling America's growth and its very financial engine -- was based on the subjugation of the other, the nonwhite. And, while American slavery and Jim Crow are past, part of the country's heritage and its distribution of wealth continue to hinge upon and perpetuate that racial system of White and Other.

A number of years ago, I worked with a white man who'd gotten into trouble with management for insulting the city's blacks while giving her the tour of the city he gave all new hires. Unbeknownst to him, this extremely light-skinned, straight hair-having beauty was a black woman. And, she reported him.

He thought he was talking to another white person. With his guard down, he made a comment that referenced and sought to perpetuate the standard of White and Other in America. Say what you will about blacks holding each other hostage to the concept of skin color, ethnicity and adversarial outlooks.

But understand that "whites" who know of their black heritage (at least 1 in 5 white Americans, from the study I heard in college, has some black in their family tree) are less than forthcoming about it for a reason.

I think it's that prism one has to view Prince's early obfuscations and fictionalizing about his heritage. I also think it's that prism one has to view the endless consternation over how strong/white-loving/Muslim/threatening/foreign President Obama seems. At the end of the day, he's an Other.

[Edited 7/5/10 11:25am]

Actually it's not, because how many 'white's on this board so far have enforced the 1 Drop Rule? So far I got 2 that are in this thread and look at the characterizations they paint me with.' the One Drop Rule was put on the books by whites and they actually enforced it as far as whites were concerned to keep them in line from intermingling with anyone of african/negro blood/ancestry.

So I agree with you about those 'whites who won't acknowledge any black heritage' but it would be whites using that to keep whites in line, in most cases.

Sad thing is there is no 1 Drop Rule for Native Americans nor for Asians they can identify as they choose. They can freely have a dual identity. or they can choose to identify one way or the other or none of them.

the 1 Drop Rule is just another line of slavery and control.

But it's not whites hanging out in the academic halls of blackness, and in black neighborhoods, social groups and churches/mosques who 'enforce' it when someone brings up other ancestry. Only 1 time in my life was I told by a white person directly that I was just black. But on a regular basis by AA's

I've called uncle Tom while at the work place all because I worked behind a desk and wore a tie by a AA maintenance guy. And he outright acknowledge "I looked different, your not fully black? " etc etc And sometimes on a daily bases would come into my space to call me an uncle Tom. Now if this was a white person doing this to a black person, he could be fired. Which is what I should have done to this guy under harrassment, but I didn't want him to loose his job or anything.

Trying to get into a pizza shop and AA gentleman is sitting in front and why I try to pass "You white blacks think your better etc etc"

While in college working in a grocery store. An old black gentleman come into my line to tell me "I don't like boys who look like you" I laugh and ask why he says "because it's the boy like you that got all the girls when I was in school" I said I wish I had it like that.

Walking down the hall of a college with a female biracial friend while an AA guy called her white girl white girl white girl. And she wasn't trying to be white or black she wanted to acknowledge both of her parents. She readily walked hand in hand with her black father out in public. So there was no shame of blackness going on.

Another friend who is 1/4 black who identifies as multiracial who is married to w/kids a black person. Where is the running from blackness. And she does not identify as black.

Mariah Carey still identifies as Multiracial, she married an Italian, dated Derek Jeters, dated a latino, and married a black guy. She still identifies as multiracial. And Mariah has friend of various ethnic backgrounds. I hardly think she is ashamed of her black heritage, she talked easily of her black grandmother who raised her partially and the black pentecostal church she attends currently.

I think with most AA the idea that someone would identify as they want to that, they are hiding or running from their blackness.

Even though many of these people are in love with their black family member, have friends of all skin tones, date black or whatever. They/we will still be accussed of being self hating. That's laughable

You use a word like "encourage" like it's a good thing.

It's usually done in a a demeaning way, it's usually done in a mocking way "oh he/she is in denial or he/she is ashamed of their blackness, or he/she wants to be white" etc etc it's bullying, not encouraging. the NAACP might do it that way, but most AA aren't

My cousin who is fair skinned with long wavy hair at age 13 got beaten up after school and harrassed by a black girl (still remember her name Porsha) because in Porsha's mind: you think your prettier you think your this and that. And my cousin did think that she just was raised well and taken care of.

I have 2 friends twinz who's mother is not black and they were talking about multiracial identity with their black father and his response was "If you have 1 drop of black in you, your black now drop it"

And I just don't think it's that simple

Kids coming up now are a lot more integrate than when I was coming up.

Music styles clothing dating etc etc is a lot more intermixed

So for to hold onto blackness and whiteness like in the past is not going to do our country any good for the future. Both sides need to get over their racial power struggles.

[Edited 7/6/10 7:33am]

I think that you should address the issues / experiences that you have had regarding your race / appearance in therapy, instead of advocating for people who have lighter complexions to not identify as being black. You are fighting a losing battle there. The only thing that you can do is take care of yourself.

Sounds like you have a lot of pent up frustration, anger and even possibly trauma - so now you are on some sort of mission. Hey, perhaps you've had bad experiences. But those experiences are not always the experiences of the rest of us.

Nobody on this forum has suggested that YOU should identify as being black. Nobody at all. So you got on a 'rant" for what? Because we say that Prince is black? Which Prince himself is now saying. Please.

Go get the help that you need, and stop turning to a darn public forum for self-validation. Instead of "cursing" the people who put the system in place, your beef is with black people who have chosen to "embrace" that system, and to firmly identify with Africa. Sounds a bit twisted to me.

[Edited 7/6/10 13:33pm]

Reel said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Actually it's not, because how many 'white's on this board so far have enforced the 1 Drop Rule? So far I got 2 that are in this thread and look at the characterizations they paint me with.' the One Drop Rule was put on the books by whites and they actually enforced it as far as whites were concerned to keep them in line from intermingling with anyone of african/negro blood/ancestry.

So I agree with you about those 'whites who won't acknowledge any black heritage' but it would be whites using that to keep whites in line, in most cases.

Sad thing is there is no 1 Drop Rule for Native Americans nor for Asians they can identify as they choose. They can freely have a dual identity. or they can choose to identify one way or the other or none of them.

the 1 Drop Rule is just another line of slavery and control.

But it's not whites hanging out in the academic halls of blackness, and in black neighborhoods, social groups and churches/mosques who 'enforce' it when someone brings up other ancestry. Only 1 time in my life was I told by a white person directly that I was just black. But on a regular basis by AA's

I've called uncle Tom while at the work place all because I worked behind a desk and wore a tie by a AA maintenance guy. And he outright acknowledge "I looked different, your not fully black? " etc etc And sometimes on a daily bases would come into my space to call me an uncle Tom. Now if this was a white person doing this to a black person, he could be fired. Which is what I should have done to this guy under harrassment, but I didn't want him to loose his job or anything.

Trying to get into a pizza shop and AA gentleman is sitting in front and why I try to pass "You white blacks think your better etc etc"

While in college working in a grocery store. An old black gentleman come into my line to tell me "I don't like boys who look like you" I laugh and ask why he says "because it's the boy like you that got all the girls when I was in school" I said I wish I had it like that.

Walking down the hall of a college with a female biracial friend while an AA guy called her white girl white girl white girl. And she wasn't trying to be white or black she wanted to acknowledge both of her parents. She readily walked hand in hand with her black father out in public. So there was no shame of blackness going on.

Another friend who is 1/4 black who identifies as multiracial who is married to w/kids a black person. Where is the running from blackness. And she does not identify as black.

Mariah Carey still identifies as Multiracial, she married an Italian, dated Derek Jeters, dated a latino, and married a black guy. She still identifies as multiracial. And Mariah has friend of various ethnic backgrounds. I hardly think she is ashamed of her black heritage, she talked easily of her black grandmother who raised her partially and the black pentecostal church she attends currently.

I think with most AA the idea that someone would identify as they want to that, they are hiding or running from their blackness.

Even though many of these people are in love with their black family member, have friends of all skin tones, date black or whatever. They/we will still be accussed of being self hating. That's laughable

You use a word like "encourage" like it's a good thing.

It's usually done in a a demeaning way, it's usually done in a mocking way "oh he/she is in denial or he/she is ashamed of their blackness, or he/she wants to be white" etc etc it's bullying, not encouraging. the NAACP might do it that way, but most AA aren't

My cousin who is fair skinned with long wavy hair at age 13 got beaten up after school and harrassed by a black girl (still remember her name Porsha) because in Porsha's mind: you think your prettier you think your this and that. And my cousin did think that she just was raised well and taken care of.

I have 2 friends twinz who's mother is not black and they were talking about multiracial identity with their black father and his response was "If you have 1 drop of black in you, your black now drop it"

And I just don't think it's that simple

Kids coming up now are a lot more integrate than when I was coming up.

Music styles clothing dating etc etc is a lot more intermixed

So for to hold onto blackness and whiteness like in the past is not going to do our country any good for the future. Both sides need to get over their racial power struggles.

[Edited 7/6/10 7:33am]

I think that you should address the issues / experiences that you have had regarding your race / appearance in therapy, instead of advocating for people who have lighter complexions to not identify as being black. You are fighting a losing battle there. The only thing that you can do is take care of yourself.

Sounds like you have a lot of pent up frustration, anger and even possibly trauma - so now you are on some sort of mission. Hey, perhaps you've had bad experiences. But those experiences are not always the experiences of the rest of us.

Nobody on this forum has suggested that YOU should identify as being black. Nobody at all. So you got on a 'rant" for what? Because we say that Prince is black? Which Prince himself is now saying. Please.

Go get the help that you need, and stop turning to a darn public forum for self-validation. Instead of "cursing" the people who put the system in place, your beef is with black people who have chosen to "embrace" that system, and to firmly identify with Africa. Sounds a bit twisted to me.

[Edited 7/6/10 13:33pm]

lol get over yourself Reel and uh get real

If I was to remix what you said about me, with a white person listening to a black person talk about racist and prejudiced behaviour you would be all over that white person if they told you, you had a problem and needed therapy. And that has happened a lot to AA's.

So you are a bit of a hypocrite. Now do as you said earlier, move on and talk about Prince U 1Dropper go tell massa you'll keep us mutts in line

~backs outta thread..~

OldFriends4Sale said:

Reel said:

I think that you should address the issues / experiences that you have had regarding your race / appearance in therapy, instead of advocating for people who have lighter complexions to not identify as being black. You are fighting a losing battle there. The only thing that you can do is take care of yourself.

Sounds like you have a lot of pent up frustration, anger and even possibly trauma - so now you are on some sort of mission. Hey, perhaps you've had bad experiences. But those experiences are not always the experiences of the rest of us.

Nobody on this forum has suggested that YOU should identify as being black. Nobody at all. So you got on a 'rant" for what? Because we say that Prince is black? Which Prince himself is now saying. Please.

Go get the help that you need, and stop turning to a darn public forum for self-validation. Instead of "cursing" the people who put the system in place, your beef is with black people who have chosen to "embrace" that system, and to firmly identify with Africa. Sounds a bit twisted to me.

[Edited 7/6/10 13:33pm]

lol get over yourself Reel and uh get real

If I was to remix what you said about me, with a white person listening to a black person talk about racist and prejudiced behaviour you would be all over that white person if they told you, you had a problem and needed therapy. And that has happened a lot to AA's.

So you are a bit of a hypocrite. Now do as you said earlier, move on and talk about Prince U 1Dropper go tell massa you'll keep us mutts in line

Your personal issues run really deep my brother. Lots of internal conflict you reveal about yourself. Oh well, we all have our crosses to bear I guess.

Prince bands proteges 1980-1989 or For U - Batman

Reel said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

lol get over yourself Reel and uh get real

So you are a bit of a hypocrite. Now do as you said earlier, move on and talk about Prince U 1Dropper go tell massa you'll keep us mutts in line

Your personal issues run really deep my brother. Lots of internal conflict you reveal about yourself. Oh well, we all have our crosses to bear I guess.

awwwww I'm so wounded, do I check in with the NAACP, Soul Patrol or the Afrocentrics to heal my internal conflict. I wanna be black just like U, as black as u are, it's my hearts desire. move into an all black neighborhood, watch BET non stop, wear nothing but hip hop gear, man ur really helping me out

OldFriends4Sale said:

Prince bands proteges 1980-1989 or For U - Batman

Those were the days.

OldFriends4Sale said:

ThreadBare said:

Interesting discussion. Let me stress at the outset of my comments that I, too, hope and work for racial reconciliation and understanding. In the interests of strengthening that understanding, I say the following:

The notion that blacks enforce the "one-drop" standard of racial categorization more than whites is laughable.

While I think, historically, black Americans encouraged others with more-obvious black-and-other heritages to self-identify as black Americans out of a desire for ethnic unity and solidarity, I think arguing that they're somehow more adamant about it than whites ignores some factors:

1) This race-based system of America is not one constructed by black Americans. We've been the ones (with the help from progressive whites and others) fighting to assert our rights as citizens and humans, to no longer be thought of as 3/5 a white person.

2) This racial system in America -- codified in law books, fueling America's growth and its very financial engine -- was based on the subjugation of the other, the nonwhite. And, while American slavery and Jim Crow are past, part of the country's heritage and its distribution of wealth continue to hinge upon and perpetuate that racial system of White and Other.

A number of years ago, I worked with a white man who'd gotten into trouble with management for insulting the city's blacks while giving her the tour of the city he gave all new hires. Unbeknownst to him, this extremely light-skinned, straight hair-having beauty was a black woman. And, she reported him.

He thought he was talking to another white person. With his guard down, he made a comment that referenced and sought to perpetuate the standard of White and Other in America. Say what you will about blacks holding each other hostage to the concept of skin color, ethnicity and adversarial outlooks.

But understand that "whites" who know of their black heritage (at least 1 in 5 white Americans, from the study I heard in college, has some black in their family tree) are less than forthcoming about it for a reason.

I think it's that prism one has to view Prince's early obfuscations and fictionalizing about his heritage. I also think it's that prism one has to view the endless consternation over how strong/white-loving/Muslim/threatening/foreign President Obama seems. At the end of the day, he's an Other.

[Edited 7/5/10 11:25am]

Actually it's not, because how many 'white's on this board so far have enforced the 1 Drop Rule? So far I got 2 that are in this thread and look at the characterizations they paint me with.' the One Drop Rule was put on the books by whites and they actually enforced it as far as whites were concerned to keep them in line from intermingling with anyone of african/negro blood/ancestry.

So I agree with you about those 'whites who won't acknowledge any black heritage' but it would be whites using that to keep whites in line, in most cases.

Sad thing is there is no 1 Drop Rule for Native Americans nor for Asians they can identify as they choose. They can freely have a dual identity. or they can choose to identify one way or the other or none of them.

the 1 Drop Rule is just another line of slavery and control.

But it's not whites hanging out in the academic halls of blackness, and in black neighborhoods, social groups and churches/mosques who 'enforce' it when someone brings up other ancestry. Only 1 time in my life was I told by a white person directly that I was just black. But on a regular basis by AA's

I've called uncle Tom while at the work place all because I worked behind a desk and wore a tie by a AA maintenance guy. And he outright acknowledge "I looked different, your not fully black? " etc etc And sometimes on a daily bases would come into my space to call me an uncle Tom. Now if this was a white person doing this to a black person, he could be fired. Which is what I should have done to this guy under harrassment, but I didn't want him to loose his job or anything.

Trying to get into a pizza shop and AA gentleman is sitting in front and why I try to pass "You white blacks think your better etc etc"

While in college working in a grocery store. An old black gentleman come into my line to tell me "I don't like boys who look like you" I laugh and ask why he says "because it's the boy like you that got all the girls when I was in school" I said I wish I had it like that.

Walking down the hall of a college with a female biracial friend while an AA guy called her white girl white girl white girl. And she wasn't trying to be white or black she wanted to acknowledge both of her parents. She readily walked hand in hand with her black father out in public. So there was no shame of blackness going on.

Another friend who is 1/4 black who identifies as multiracial who is married to w/kids a black person. Where is the running from blackness. And she does not identify as black.

Mariah Carey still identifies as Multiracial, she married an Italian, dated Derek Jeters, dated a latino, and married a black guy. She still identifies as multiracial. And Mariah has friend of various ethnic backgrounds. I hardly think she is ashamed of her black heritage, she talked easily of her black grandmother who raised her partially and the black pentecostal church she attends currently.

I think with most AA the idea that someone would identify as they want to that, they are hiding or running from their blackness.

Even though many of these people are in love with their black family member, have friends of all skin tones, date black or whatever. They/we will still be accussed of being self hating. That's laughable

You use a word like "encourage" like it's a good thing.

It's usually done in a a demeaning way, it's usually done in a mocking way "oh he/she is in denial or he/she is ashamed of their blackness, or he/she wants to be white" etc etc it's bullying, not encouraging. the NAACP might do it that way, but most AA aren't

My cousin who is fair skinned with long wavy hair at age 13 got beaten up after school and harrassed by a black girl (still remember her name Porsha) because in Porsha's mind: you think your prettier you think your this and that. And my cousin did think that she just was raised well and taken care of.

I have 2 friends twinz who's mother is not black and they were talking about multiracial identity with their black father and his response was "If you have 1 drop of black in you, your black now drop it"

And I just don't think it's that simple

Kids coming up now are a lot more integrate than when I was coming up.

Music styles clothing dating etc etc is a lot more intermixed

So for to hold onto blackness and whiteness like in the past is not going to do our country any good for the future. Both sides need to get over their racial power struggles.

[Edited 7/6/10 7:33am]

You raise a lot of examples of harsh experiences, some extreme, that show how some blacks mistreat other blacks -- particularly in situations where there might be some perception of self-hatred. You also raise examples of how other ethnic minorities seem free from such baggage.

I'd assert that's not entirely true, for the latter point. I suspect, in the scope of white supremacist thought that has infused much of American history, non-white has tended to be a negative (the darker, the worse). We all have had negative experiences on the basis of perceived ethnicity or class differences. If you're identified as Other in America, that's likely to happen. It's also likely to happen if you're identified as white in America. That said, I'm sorry for your pain.

Should black Americans do more to abandon the racial categorizations that have been foisted upon us? No doubt about it. I believe we would do so in a heartbeat -- after all, we've always been on the losing side of it -- if it were guaranteed our brothers and sisters of other shades would do the same. Better put, we'd quit the game if everyone else did, too.

Consider this, though: Particularly inherent in the black experience has been the willful choice (a choice we struggle with to this day) to embrace ourselves as beautiful people within a social/national context that has lived by the premise that we are neither.

Bringing it back to Prince (and the recent race-related threads about him on this site) and your lamentations: How do black Americans and Americans as a whole move forward in our thinking, if:

1) So much of the discussion of racial identity seems wedded to the premise of white supremacy,

2) and celebration of black American heritage, expression and humanity is still seen as a negative?

ThreadBare said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Kids coming up now are a lot more integrate than when I was coming up.

Music styles clothing dating etc etc is a lot more intermixed

So for to hold onto blackness and whiteness like in the past is not going to do our country any good for the future. Both sides need to get over their racial power struggles.

You raise a lot of examples of harsh experiences, some extreme, that show how some blacks mistreat other blacks -- particularly in situations where there might be some perception of self-hatred. You also raise examples of how other ethnic minorities seem free from such baggage.

I'd assert that's not entirely true, for the latter point. I suspect, in the scope of white supremacist thought that has infused much of American history, non-white has tended to be a negative (the darker, the worse). We all have had negative experiences on the basis of perceived ethnicity or class differences. If you're identified as Other in America, that's likely to happen. It's also likely to happen if you're identified as white in America. That said, I'm sorry for your pain.

Should black Americans do more to abandon the racial categorizations that have been foisted upon us? No doubt about it. I believe we would do so in a heartbeat -- after all, we've always been on the losing side of it -- if it were guaranteed our brothers and sisters of other shades would do the same. Better put, we'd quit the game if everyone else did, too.

Consider this, though: Particularly inherent in the black experience has been the willful choice (a choice we struggle with to this day) to embrace ourselves as beautiful people within a social/national context that has lived by the premise that we are neither.

Bringing it back to Prince (and the recent race-related threads about him on this site) and your lamentations: How do black Americans and Americans as a whole move forward in our thinking, if:

1) So much of the discussion of racial identity seems wedded to the premise of white supremacy,

2) and celebration of black American heritage, expression and humanity is still seen as a negative?

really really good points and thoughts there.

No I meant other ethnic groups free from a hypodescent. People of Asian/White Asian/Navajo ancestry are free to be they can choose to be one or the other, or choose to be both or neither.

Where in the 'black community' it's an automatic that you are black even if you look white. And the origin of the ODR is racist and meant to keep whiteness pure, the ODR, miscegenation laws(agains interracial mating) and those 2 socially AA's have embraced to a large degree.

Prince can't date who he's attracted 2 without so many on the org voicing he needs to date a "real black woman" cause Vanity Jill weren't real black, and too many latina women...

I understand that a lot of it is reactionary to racism. But many time victims become victimizers too.

That darkened statement is very powerful. And I definately don't mean as in being ashamed of African biological ethnicity, nor of cultural traditions created in America. But when being black internally holds you back or cause you to hold others back then it's not good.

Example: black kids in school who view doing good in school and being smart as being white, and pressure directly or indirectly other black kids to not be white like that.

blacks who continue to hold different levels of segregation in their lifestyle. I heard this just Monday at a picnic about a new performing arts center developing here, a AA woman said "That's not for US" or a black/puerto rican coworker who told me 'we don't go on that side of town' that side of town being 50% white 50% everything else and very urban/college aged upscale

You know I know more biracial (1/2black kids) who wear their hair natural than AA's who say black is beautiful. I was with group of friends in NYC most of them were female 99% where biracial or 'visually mixed' generational wise, some you couldn't tell from the other. And they all either had curly or kinky afros, dreads or just wore their hair natural. Yet a lot of AA women with kinky hair as soon as a bit of kink starts to show they go relax or perm it out.

your point/question #1 It all is built upon white supremacy. Racial labels as well as the 1 Drop Rule. I'm actually more interested and vocal about breaking down whiteness and what that means. Because that is the foundation of all this, even blackness. Truth being we are Americans first. Many people outside of our country look at us as weird as far as race is concerned, because most define it's members by the national level. And ethnic origin is free flowing. like in Australia there are ethnic Italian or Greek neighborhoods and populations. Even in Brazil/S America there are Italian-Brazilian populations. Canada as well as the States.

your point #2 I think that view is still connected with white supremacy. But at the same time, more than 50% of white populations in this country voted for a black identified(biracial) man with a black wife. Over 60 % of Hip Hop is consumed by white-americans. Interracial pairing is rising. You see more of it on television and movies. Just watched Hawthorn last night starring Jada Pinkett-Smith and she relationship with a white coworker. I believe a lot is changing, but racism is still a problem in america. I live near a family that are skinheads and they are raising a daughter. But I also live near a white/black couple raising 2 biracial children and a black/black couple who speak to the white skinheads no matter what...

[Edited 7/7/10 11:35am]

ThreadBare said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Actually it's not, because how many 'white's on this board so far have enforced the 1 Drop Rule? So far I got 2 that are in this thread and look at the characterizations they paint me with.' the One Drop Rule was put on the books by whites and they actually enforced it as far as whites were concerned to keep them in line from intermingling with anyone of african/negro blood/ancestry.

So I agree with you about those 'whites who won't acknowledge any black heritage' but it would be whites using that to keep whites in line, in most cases.

Sad thing is there is no 1 Drop Rule for Native Americans nor for Asians they can identify as they choose. They can freely have a dual identity. or they can choose to identify one way or the other or none of them.

the 1 Drop Rule is just another line of slavery and control.

But it's not whites hanging out in the academic halls of blackness, and in black neighborhoods, social groups and churches/mosques who 'enforce' it when someone brings up other ancestry. Only 1 time in my life was I told by a white person directly that I was just black. But on a regular basis by AA's

I've called uncle Tom while at the work place all because I worked behind a desk and wore a tie by a AA maintenance guy. And he outright acknowledge "I looked different, your not fully black? " etc etc And sometimes on a daily bases would come into my space to call me an uncle Tom. Now if this was a white person doing this to a black person, he could be fired. Which is what I should have done to this guy under harrassment, but I didn't want him to loose his job or anything.

Trying to get into a pizza shop and AA gentleman is sitting in front and why I try to pass "You white blacks think your better etc etc"

While in college working in a grocery store. An old black gentleman come into my line to tell me "I don't like boys who look like you" I laugh and ask why he says "because it's the boy like you that got all the girls when I was in school" I said I wish I had it like that.

Walking down the hall of a college with a female biracial friend while an AA guy called her white girl white girl white girl. And she wasn't trying to be white or black she wanted to acknowledge both of her parents. She readily walked hand in hand with her black father out in public. So there was no shame of blackness going on.

Another friend who is 1/4 black who identifies as multiracial who is married to w/kids a black person. Where is the running from blackness. And she does not identify as black.

Mariah Carey still identifies as Multiracial, she married an Italian, dated Derek Jeters, dated a latino, and married a black guy. She still identifies as multiracial. And Mariah has friend of various ethnic backgrounds. I hardly think she is ashamed of her black heritage, she talked easily of her black grandmother who raised her partially and the black pentecostal church she attends currently.

I think with most AA the idea that someone would identify as they want to that, they are hiding or running from their blackness.

Even though many of these people are in love with their black family member, have friends of all skin tones, date black or whatever. They/we will still be accussed of being self hating. That's laughable

You use a word like "encourage" like it's a good thing.

It's usually done in a a demeaning way, it's usually done in a mocking way "oh he/she is in denial or he/she is ashamed of their blackness, or he/she wants to be white" etc etc it's bullying, not encouraging. the NAACP might do it that way, but most AA aren't

My cousin who is fair skinned with long wavy hair at age 13 got beaten up after school and harrassed by a black girl (still remember her name Porsha) because in Porsha's mind: you think your prettier you think your this and that. And my cousin did think that she just was raised well and taken care of.

I have 2 friends twinz who's mother is not black and they were talking about multiracial identity with their black father and his response was "If you have 1 drop of black in you, your black now drop it"

And I just don't think it's that simple

Kids coming up now are a lot more integrate than when I was coming up.

Music styles clothing dating etc etc is a lot more intermixed

So for to hold onto blackness and whiteness like in the past is not going to do our country any good for the future. Both sides need to get over their racial power struggles.

[Edited 7/6/10 7:33am]

You raise a lot of examples of harsh experiences, some extreme, that show how some blacks mistreat other blacks -- particularly in situations where there might be some perception of self-hatred. You also raise examples of how other ethnic minorities seem free from such baggage.

I'd assert that's not entirely true, for the latter point. I suspect, in the scope of white supremacist thought that has infused much of American history, non-white has tended to be a negative (the darker, the worse). We all have had negative experiences on the basis of perceived ethnicity or class differences. If you're identified as Other in America, that's likely to happen. It's also likely to happen if you're identified as white in America. That said, I'm sorry for your pain.

Should black Americans do more to abandon the racial categorizations that have been foisted upon us? No doubt about it. I believe we would do so in a heartbeat -- after all, we've always been on the losing side of it -- if it were guaranteed our brothers and sisters of other shades would do the same. Better put, we'd quit the game if everyone else did, too.

Consider this, though: Particularly inherent in the black experience has been the willful choice (a choice we struggle with to this day) to embrace ourselves as beautiful people within a social/national context that has lived by the premise that we are neither.

Bringing it back to Prince (and the recent race-related threads about him on this site) and your lamentations: How do black Americans and Americans as a whole move forward in our thinking, if:

1) So much of the discussion of racial identity seems wedded to the premise of white supremacy,

2) and celebration of black American heritage, expression and humanity is still seen as a negative?

I enjoyed reading your thoughts. I believe that in a "perfect world", bi-racial people would not feel "forced" to chose sides. As you discussed, I believe that some black people who pick up on any form of "self-hatred" or perceived "escapism" of another black will be somewhat critical. Ie. the whole Tiger Woods viewing himself as Cablasian (or whatever term he invented) rubbed many black people the wrong way. I think Tiger should honor the ancestry of both parents, but sometimes it viewed as if he was somehow trying to "escape" his blackness (whether right or wrong). Many blacks felt that Tiger should have been "humbled" when his fellow pro-golfer made some crazy comment about taking Tiger to eat "chicken and watermelon" after he won. So many black folks said "See Tiger...we told you that you can't escape". So this is "enforced" on both sides.

You also have the white parents of bi-racial people also telling them to "embrace" themselves to be viewed as "soley" African American. This is what Hale Berry said that her mother basically told her. She said that her mother told her that in this society "You are African American" and to embrace it and not fight against it less you have an intense struggle on your hands (paraphrasing). Hale's mother is White. So it's not only black folks who are preparing their kids to "view themselves" as the catagory that society would lump them into. I also have a friend who's father told her the same thing.

Now I saw an interview with the attractive lady who played the school teacher in the movie Precious, and she also played the lead female role in the movie Deja Vu (I completely forget her name now), she is married to Robin Thicke. Anyway in the interview, she said that she considers herself "black", and she is concerned that some black people feel that she does not "want to be black". When she said that, you could see that there was a lot of baggage regarding that issue. Both sides can be very cruel.

I have a cousin who could pass, and he was from the "dirty south". He would drive trucks and had professional relationships with all of the white truckers on his route. They were a network of drivers who sold produce. He said that the hatred towards blacks was deep. He never disclosed what his race was, because they all just assumed he was white. But if a Black person made a comment on his hair, the color of his eyes, or his complexion...he would curse them out in a heartbeat. He would "beat that ass" of anyone trying to assert that he was "less black". Folks kept their mouths closed around him. I remember my cousins were trying to rag on me about my complexion. He overheard it, came in the living room and cursed them all out. I aint had no more problems since then He was the one to tell me to start cussing folks who even look "funny" at me. So I never really had that problem after that. Eventhough I can't "pass", I've had black folks make negative comments about my complexion (get some Sun white girl) etc. The shit never really did bother me as I grew into adolescense. Now that I'm an adult, my complexion has darkend further.

So in essence this struggle happens quite frequently with bi-racial people. Now I have not seen that dynamic happen as frequently with "multi-racial" people. I guess that would all depend on what the dominant race in their family is, in regards to who they will identify with. Alicia Keys always makes it clear that she "loves her mother" very much. However she is not really involved in white mainstream culture, dealing mostly with African Americans on a professional, social, and romantic level.

With all of that being said, I think that even in a perfect world....many black people of lighter hues, and who are bi-racial would continue to verbalize ties with Africa. After all, no matter how "perfect" things get, our history in this country will never be forgotten and some blacks will undoubtably always acknowlege and emphasize their ties with Africa even if that may be by calling themselves "Black", "African American" or whatever other politically correct term that is thrown on us down the line.

Personally, I have no interest in abandoning the catagorization of being black. Both of my grandparents could "pass" EASILY. Both never did. Aunts and Uncles could also "pass"; they chose not to do so. Both of my grandmother's parent's were bi-racial, an I was raised by my grandmother. To each his own I guess.

OldFriends4Sale said:

2elijah said:

(Bolded part) Reel, you are 100% on point about OFFS, Something he does quite often. It is never hard to read between the lines of his posts and yet he preaches about this country's intention of the one-drop rule, and the "race" system, but unfortunately has allowed himself to become a "victim" of that system with his segregated beliefs and misguided information.

I guess I wild have to bypass his nonsense and misguided information as well.

[Edited 7/5/10 9:33am]

U 2 are just afrocentrics who believe in the 1 Drop Rule, anyone who does bow to blackness, something is wrong with them or they don't want to acknowledge their blackness. Same old same old. The world is still changing why you try to hold on to this universal blackness

move on now

[Edited 7/6/10 7:39am]

Dude, you are so confused. Because you are worried about how others view you is not my problem. Secondly, you make these ridiculous, stereotypical generalizations about Blacks who have no problem with how they define themselves, and who are comfortable and embrace and confident of who they are, yet you seem to get pissed off at them for that, and so you l throw out your stereotypical nonsense and call them "Afrocentric" or the "Soul Patrol" and make other stereotypical comments about them.

It is clear, that maybe it is you that needs to re-educate yourself on the various ethnicities, cultures, lifestyle, and various socio/enonomic/educational levels of Black Americans in this country, and those of African-ancestry outside of the U.S.. Had you any real knowledge, you would not reduce your intelligence to spewing stereotypical comments and making assumptions about those here, that don't agree with your views. As far as the one-drop rule, I don't think it is so much that you are pissed off about that rule, I think you're pissed off because you don't feel secure in embracing the black side of yourself, because you're somehow ashamed of that side, and you don't see the value in it, like you see with the other side, and so you find ways to demean it, and damn those blacks that embrace their African-ancestry. No one here is forciing you to deny any part of yourself. It is you that need to embrace all of who you are.

Calling me and orger Reel, "afrocentric or the soul patrol" because we don't agree with your views, only shows that you lack education about the various lifestyles, cultures, dialects/languages, socio/economic and educational levels of Blacks in this country and outside of it. You have displayed that through your views, as one who believes that Blacks who fully embrace their black culture, is a bad thing or you would not pitch the "afrocentric/soul patrol" at those of us that have no issue embracing who we are and giving value/dignity to our culture, yet I've never seen you shoot down those from other race/ethnic groups, regarding how they proudly embrace their culture. I will always refer to myself as a Black American or African-American, because the meaning to me goes way beyond skin color.

What you need to do is embrace all of who you are and stop blaming Black people or others, for your lack of self-confidence and insecurities. Maybe one day you'll find the same peace as many of us. Good luck in your quest.

2elijah said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

U 2 are just afrocentrics who believe in the 1 Drop Rule, anyone who does bow to blackness, something is wrong with them or they don't want to acknowledge their blackness. Same old same old. The world is still changing why you try to hold on to this universal blackness

move on now

[Edited 7/6/10 7:39am]

Dude, you are so confused. Because you are worried about how others view you is not my problem. Secondly, you make these ridiculous, stereotypical generalizations about Blacks who have no problem with how they define themselves, and who are comfortable and embrace and confident of who they are, yet you seem to get pissed off at them for that, and so you l throw out your stereotypical nonsense and call them "Afrocentric" or the "Soul Patrol" and make other stereotypical comments about them.

It is clear, that maybe it is you that needs to re-educate yourself on the various ethnicities, cultures, lifestyle, and various socio/enonomic/educational levels of Black Americans in this country, and those of African-ancestry outside of the U.S.. Had you any real knowledge, you would not reduce your intelligence to spewing stereotypical comments and making assumptions about those here, that don't agree with your views. As far as the one-drop rule, I don't think it is so much that you are pissed off about that rule, I think you're pissed off because you don't feel secure in embracing the black side of yourself, because you're somehow ashamed of that side, and you don't see the value in it, like you see with the other side, and so you find ways to demean it, and damn those blacks that embrace their African-ancestry. No one here is forciing you to deny any part of yourself. It is you that need to embrace all of who you are.

Calling me and orger Reel, "afrocentric or the soul patrol" because we don't agree with your views, only shows that you lack education about the various lifestyles, cultures, dialects/languages, socio/economic and educational levels of Blacks in this country and outside of it. You have displayed that through your views, as one who believes that Blacks who fully embrace their black culture, is a bad thing or you would not pitch the "afrocentric/soul patrol" at those of us that have no issue embracing who we are and giving value/dignity to our culture, yet I've never seen you shoot down those from other race/ethnic groups, regarding how they proudly embrace their culture. I will always refer to myself as a Black American or African-American, because the meaning to me goes way beyond skin color.

What you need to do is embrace all of who you are and stop blaming Black people or others, for your lack of self-confidence and insecurities. Maybe one day you'll find the same peace as many of us. Good luck in your quest.

Exactly...insecure people "lash out" and make all sorts of accusations about the secure ones. Although it is sad that he was mistreated by a few black people because of the way he looked. However, many black people have keen senses and can "sniff out" people with self-hatred and "confusion" issues, and manytimes they will definitely speak on it.

This guy's real issues are with himself, and his past. And yes, he is exhibiting a great deal of insecurity because he is "threatend" by blacks who are "solid" in thier racial identity. He want's everybody who is of light complexion to feel troubled, insecure, and confused like he is. He want's those blacks to go back to being as "crazed" as he is acting. Perhaps he want's us to revert to the "brown paper bag" antics that we used to go through as a people when our self-esteem was at rock bottom. But THE PEOPLE have progressed in the embracement of Self-Love. Unfortunately he has not.