Reel said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Well why wouldn't you take it seriously, I don't mean it's critically serious, but why not?

even the term we use are idiotic, brown and tan white people, pink fair tan black people

Race can change as anyone sees fit because it's not a biological truth, but a social construction

Black & White equivalent to Negro(id) & Caucasion are constructions based on a racial hierarchy

So Prince could easily go to South Africa and because Coloured, not black

Prince could easily got to many parts of the Caribbean & Latin America and become Mulatto and in some case even white

Prince could go to any part of Europe and be whatever

Kimora Lee Simmons includes herself as part of the black community as well. Yet she also identifies as Asian. Many people who identify as biracial or multiracial have a strong solidarity with the black community.

It's no secret the Prince has always questioned race

Prince can pass as White....to blind people with white canes.

The issue is that Prince is an American...and Americans who fit Princes physical description with the biological parents that he has ARE CONSIDERED BLACK! Just deal with it.

I am dealing with it. I'm a moderator come learn something: http://thestudyofracialism.org/

CONSIDERED is the word. Not factual. People can identify as they wish. Guess what even on the census forms, there is an acknowledgement that the world and America isn't so black n white

Am I Black or White

Controversy

[Edited 7/4/10 16:46pm]

Reel said:

TheRIP said:

In an interview from the early 80's, Prince said his mother was Italian.

Produce the article, or the interview show that Prince was on when he said this. I'll say...no matter what Prince has "tricked" a segment of his audience into believeing about him in regards to his race. I'm telling you that it was one big fat lie.

Maybe Prince initially thought that he neeed to be vague or ambiguous about his racial identity in order to to more effectively be marketed to the masses. This appeared to evidently work, because if in 1980 he was the kind of man to wear a raised fist around his neck, and to write songs about the "Motherland'...I doubt that he would have as many non-black fans as he has. So there was a method in his madness. That method worked so well, that even this very day, non-black people are tricked into believing that Prince is somehow multi-racial, even AFTER he identifies as being black.

I was heavily following the Purple Rain advent and yes Prince did say that in an interview, it was most likely to promote the 'biographical' element of the movie but he did say it

[Edited 7/4/10 21:48pm]

Reel said:

TheRIP said:

It wasn't an article. It was an audio recording, which I bought on CD. I can sell you a copy if you like.

Site your source...so that we can all verify. What "CD"?

http://www.amazon.com/Int...B0000011QC

OldFriends4Sale said:

Cravens said:

In Europe after Hitler, Mousillini and Stalin, it's actually thought to be very bad taste and sometimes even grossly unscientific, to think of people in races. Black and white aren't races, I was taught in school, with the sublimental: "And if you believe that they are, you've become pray of Hitler's propaganda" (No, I was actually told that). Race is thought as Neanderthal's and Homo Sapiens, or the in the least, as a "cultural" concept, rather than a scientific.

Why do I mention this? Because Brofie wrote this:

I think one has to understand how Europeans (in general, perhaps mostly in the Western Europe) think on the subject. Europeans aren't bothered about their creed, their roots or their background as individuals, as it seems Americans are (how many times have I heard Americans say their ancestors came with the Mayflower, and how many times have I thought: "Does it matter? That was hundreds of years ago .. what does that has to do with you, now?"). In Europe everybody comes from everywhere and you won't hear a European proudly annonce that he's one tenth Indian, part German and part Chinese, since it's a given that of course you're a mix of everything. There's not really any alternative to being mixed.

Couple that with the continental reaction to the likes of Hitler, who surely showed us how far you can go with ideas of a "race" being unique (the Ayrian one, though "ayrian" is not a term of race, rather a term belonging to the history of European language), holding hands with violent seperatism and power, and you have a whole different perspective on the issue of race.

Sure, there is racism in Europe. Any black European can attest to that and I've heard more than plenty stories about white idiots, but Europeans are in general more racist towards "other cultures". People as a whole don't look so much on the color of the skin, as on the culture the person represents. Black, Chinese or any other complexion-related subcultures are rarely big enough to form a cultures within the cultures of the nations and are therefore rarely thought as "different" from the national culture (I'm sure an American here could could about how the people of color therefore must have been assimilated into the mainstream culture, but I'd protest that notion, since that would be to read it through very American glasses).

You can be white, but talk with an accent and suffer far more racism than a any black person, as the racism in general is more aimed at your culture (this could be your religion, your sexuality) or nationality.

So..

Yes, Europeans tend to forget that Prince is black. But that is because "black" doesn't mean to Europeans what "black" means to Americans. I don't think of him as black, I think of him as .. "American". His culture is the most important feature. I don't mean to degrade the debate or in anyway derail it, but all of this is why, in general, that you'll find that Europeans just don't "get" the issue. Not because they are white supremists, but the concept of thinking of yourself as a color .. is a bit foreign. Sort of like "social solidarity through taxes" are so foreign a concept to many Americans, that they just don't "get" it.

Anyway. There IS racism in Europe, and in the Eastern Europe it might be more widely common. That I can't deny, and I won't paint a picture of Europe as any sort of paradise on earth; but racism here has a different face and the oppression is an entirely different beast.

But I've really enjoyed this thread, (thank you Spin and 1725). I just wanted to clarify and answer to why many European fans on here apparently question Prince's alignment with color, when most don't understand why it matters in the first place. Hopefully a black European will jump in here and give it a perspective that I can't give as a white Scandinavian.

/end huge general statements about Europeans.

Thank you, and this is from an American that studies racialism multiculturism and mixed race identities through the world

Americans need to understand that our notions of race don't fit into other countries. Even moreso the notion/law of the One Drop Rule is exclusively an American concept: 1 Drop of Black/Negro blood makes you black.

In Louisiana Creole cutlure they had 6-10 different mulatto terms for people who were of white-other admixture: example a mulatre and a blanc produced a quadroon, a quadroon and a white produced an octoroon and there are like 5 more after that the last being Sang Mele and the sang mele could be considered white as long as he/she had no slave/negro dialect, mannerisms, etc etc

So Americas idea of Prince being black or Mariah Carey or even Lenny Kravitz or Vanessah Williams is based on the One Drop Rule, a racist invention that sadly many African-Americans have taken as truth.

Listen pretty much all African Americans know that our blood is no longer pure due to the slave trade. However, many of us have decided to adopt and identify ourselves as "Black" or African American, no matter how light our skin is. It would be ridiculous for us to adapt terms as "octoroon", or "quardroon" to identify ourselves. Which is why many people have even dropped the term "black" and we just consider ourselves "African American"...because our roots are from Africa, and we identify as being American. And just for your knowledge, Vanessa Williams is African American, she is not bi-racial.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Reel said:

So you are one out of a globe of people who could not acertain Slash's racial identity. The REASON why we could not tell is because he had his hair in his face like cousin "it" and he had that top hat on, and he was often shot with shadowy footage. No way that Guns N Roses were trying to advertise that Slash was black. No way.

I'm saying it wasn't a secret. Nor was he trying to hide it, I know of it because it was talked about.

Lenny Kravitz and Slash being friends it was always talked about that both were 1/2 Jewish 1/2 Black

Slash wasn't all that big so he wasn't going to be talked about like Michael Jackson, come on.

And why should GnR have to advertise that Slash was 1/2 Black. Slash is not Black. His mother is.

Slash and Guns N Roses hid Slash's racial identity from the masses. You believe what you want, but that's the real deal.

TheRIP said:

Reel said:

Site your source...so that we can all verify. What "CD"?

http://www.amazon.com/Int...B0000011QC

Thanks for posting the source.

TheRIP said:

It wasn't an article. It was an audio recording, which I bought on CD. I can sell you a copy if you like.

I know what you're talking about. That was the long audio interview he did in Amsterdam in '80, with the interviewer that sounded a lot like Chris Moon, lol. Here's that part:

Interviewer: What are actually your roots? I mean, you are not a Black American, but, [stutters] you know, I mean the "Black American," [Prince mumbles: "hmm" in agreement] but where...Where do you actually come, I mean, your roots come from?

Prince: Well, my father's Black, and part Italian. And my mother's Italian, with something else.... [mumbles].

2elijah said:

Cravens said:

In Europe after Hitler, Mousillini and Stalin, it's actually thought to be very bad taste and sometimes even grossly unscientific, to think of people in races. Black and white aren't races, I was taught in school, with the sublimental: "And if you believe that they are, you've become pray of Hitler's propaganda" (No, I was actually told that). Race is thought as Neanderthal's and Homo Sapiens, or the in the least, as a "cultural" concept, rather than a scientific.

Why do I mention this? Because Brofie wrote this:

I think one has to understand how Europeans (in general, perhaps mostly in the Western Europe) think on the subject. Europeans aren't bothered about their creed, their roots or their background as individuals, as it seems Americans are (how many times have I heard Americans say their ancestors came with the Mayflower, and how many times have I thought: "Does it matter? That was hundreds of years ago .. what does that has to do with you, now?"). In Europe everybody comes from everywhere and you won't hear a European proudly annonce that he's one tenth Indian, part German and part Chinese, since it's a given that of course you're a mix of everything. There's not really any alternative to being mixed.

Couple that with the continental reaction to the likes of Hitler, who surely showed us how far you can go with ideas of a "race" being unique (the Ayrian one, though "ayrian" is not a term of race, rather a term belonging to the history of European language), holding hands with violent seperatism and power, and you have a whole different perspective on the issue of race.

Sure, there is racism in Europe. Any black European can attest to that and I've heard more than plenty stories about white idiots, but Europeans are in general more racist towards "other cultures". People as a whole don't look so much on the color of the skin, as on the culture the person represents. Black, Chinese or any other complexion-related subcultures are rarely big enough to form a cultures within the cultures of the nations and are therefore rarely thought as "different" from the national culture (I'm sure an American here could could about how the people of color therefore must have been assimilated into the mainstream culture, but I'd protest that notion, since that would be to read it through very American glasses).

You can be white, but talk with an accent and suffer far more racism than a any black person, as the racism in general is more aimed at your culture (this could be your religion, your sexuality) or nationality.

So..

Yes, Europeans tend to forget that Prince is black. But that is because "black" doesn't mean to Europeans what "black" means to Americans. I don't think of him as black, I think of him as .. "American". His culture is the most important feature. I don't mean to degrade the debate or in anyway derail it, but all of this is why, in general, that you'll find that Europeans just don't "get" the issue. Not because they are white supremists, but the concept of thinking of yourself as a color .. is a bit foreign. Sort of like "social solidarity through taxes" are so foreign a concept to many Americans, that they just don't "get" it.

Anyway. There IS racism in Europe, and in the Eastern Europe it might be more widely common. That I can't deny, and I won't paint a picture of Europe as any sort of paradise on earth; but racism here has a different face and the oppression is an entirely different beast.

But I've really enjoyed this thread, (thank you Spin and 1725). I just wanted to clarify and answer to why many European fans on here apparently question Prince's alignment with color, when most don't understand why it matters in the first place. Hopefully a black European will jump in here and give it a perspective that I can't give as a white Scandinavian.

/end huge general statements about Europeans.

In reference to the bolded part. 1.)Yes in America race is defined by skin color, but you have to remember that Black doesn't just define the various skin colors (from very light to very dark) of our skin color, it involves the various cultures within this group, as a whole, who share a similar history/various lifestyles/languages/cultures/dialects/and various educational levels, socio-economic/political views and situations, just to name a few. I think that is where the confusion comes in, when many non-Americans don't seem to understand what all the term "Black" actually entails

You have to understand that Europeans can identify by their specific ethnicities, whereas with many Black Americans, where the majority are descendants of African/African-American slaves, and because of the transatlantic slave trade and the breeding process that took place by many white slave owners, (most conducted in unfortunate circumstances such as rape), led to many mixtures among Blacks of African descent, as well as other races, that are in their DNA. Unless Black Americans, individuallly do a DNA test to trace which African ethnic group's DNA runs through their veins, then it would be easier to identify by such group, but then you also cannot dismiss the fact, that African ancestry is not the only ethnicity that runs through the majority of Black Americans' veins, there's also the DNA of other race/ethnic groups, because of the breeding, and intermixing that took place in the U.S and throughout the entire Caribbean, during the transatlantic slave trade. That cannot be dismissed, because it is very much a part of us as a whole.

I hope you can understand where I am going with this, because those are some of the reasons why many refer to themselves as "Black" or African-American". Let's not forget that they were once categorized as "property" as well, and not too many white slave owners that fathered hundreds of thousands of black babies during that time, were willing to claim them as part of their race, even knowing, they were many of those black babies' fathers, and so the intermixing began, based on all I've mentioned above, let's not forget that at that time, many Blacks and Native Americans intermixed as well. But primarily as a whole, Blacks in America identify with Blacks in Africa,as part of our history and part of our identity, although the full connection, i.e., ethnicities/cultures, separated Blacks in America, from Africa, because of the transatlantic slave trade, leaving us to develop our own, various dialects/cultures, lifestyles and socio/economic/political views and situations throughout America and the Caribbean. Hope this info helps with your understanding as well.

1.) that's actually a contradiction. If skin color defined a persons race then how could Prince be black? Race is not defined by skin color. It's a social construction (social political) and the term black really didn't come into heavy use into the late 60's early 70's. Negro & Colored were the dominate terms, Mulatto was a very regular term used to. Any study of the 'Harlem Renaissance era shows a wide exporiation and allowance of a more diverse identity that what came into the 1970's Black.

I agree from an American perspective with just about everything else you said, for those looking in from the outside.

But I will say, (and I'm not trying to be a sticker for it) but the term black in refering to the children of white slave owners historically is not correct, they actually were considered mulatto

even children by a mulatto and a negro were considered mulatto:sambo was a common term too, the child of a white and a mulatto was a quadroon. But mulatto was a general term

Even during slavery I child was designated the status of the mother

Free and Slaver were more a 'racial designation' that black n white then.

If a mulatto child was born of white mother, that child was free, in the other case a slave. Which of course worked for the slave system

The idea that a 'mixed' person was black because of the African blood did not come into play until after Emmancipation Proclamation. the One Drop Rule. Prior to 1862 America had a defined 3rd race between negro & white

Walter White

WaterInYourBath said:

TheRIP said:

It wasn't an article. It was an audio recording, which I bought on CD. I can sell you a copy if you like.

I know what you're talking about. That was the long audio interview he did in Amsterdam in '80, with the interviewer that sounded a lot like Chris Moon, lol. Here's that part:

Interviewer: What are actually your roots? I mean, you are not a Black American, but, [stutters] you know, I mean the "Black American," [Prince mumbles: "hmm" in agreement] but where...Where do you actually come, I mean, your roots come from?

Prince: Well, my father's Black, and part Italian. And my mother's Italian, with something else.... [mumbles].

Ha! @ that quote. I definitely believe that Prince said that. I'm just saying that even if he did in fact say that....he was lying. He lied to further his career, and to thwart limits being imposed on his music. I also think that it is important that when you claim hearing something to cite the source...which is why I asked for the source.

Reel said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Thank you, and this is from an American that studies racialism multiculturism and mixed race identities through the world

Americans need to understand that our notions of race don't fit into other countries. Even moreso the notion/law of the One Drop Rule is exclusively an American concept: 1 Drop of Black/Negro blood makes you black.

In Louisiana Creole cutlure they had 6-10 different mulatto terms for people who were of white-other admixture: example a mulatre and a blanc produced a quadroon, a quadroon and a white produced an octoroon and there are like 5 more after that the last being Sang Mele and the sang mele could be considered white as long as he/she had no slave/negro dialect, mannerisms, etc etc

So Americas idea of Prince being black or Mariah Carey or even Lenny Kravitz or Vanessah Williams is based on the One Drop Rule, a racist invention that sadly many African-Americans have taken as truth.

Listen pretty much all African Americans know that our blood is no longer pure due to the slave trade. However, many of us have decided to adopt and identify ourselves as "Black" or African American, no matter how light our skin is. It would be ridiculous for us to adapt terms as "octoroon", or "quardroon" to identify ourselves. Which is why many people have even dropped the term "black" and we just consider ourselves "African American"...because our roots are from Africa, and we identify as being American. And just for your knowledge, Vanessa Williams is African American, she is not bi-racial.

Listen, your not the voice of African Americans

Decided is the key, not a biological truth.

The problem is anyone outside of American racial pathology get's lumped as black mostly by other African-Americans, even if the person doesn't identify as such.

Even in the Caribbean Black & Mulatto are 2 seperate groups.

You obviously are choosing to read my posts with an attitute. I never said we should use those historic term. I did say those were historic terms.

lol I know Vanessa Williams is not biracial,

Neither was Walter White or Adam Clayton Powell Jr but they both could pass for white with no problem and did at times.

Your the soul patrol huh

A large population refuses to use the term African-American, because they say we have no cultural connections and no recent anything African. Even most Africans will not consider African-American such. They say Black-American, because their evolution as people is not African.

[Edited 7/4/10 21:50pm]

Reel said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I'm saying it wasn't a secret. Nor was he trying to hide it, I know of it because it was talked about.

Lenny Kravitz and Slash being friends it was always talked about that both were 1/2 Jewish 1/2 Black

Slash wasn't all that big so he wasn't going to be talked about like Michael Jackson, come on.

And why should GnR have to advertise that Slash was 1/2 Black. Slash is not Black. His mother is.

Slash and Guns N Roses hid Slash's racial identity from the masses. You believe what you want, but that's the real deal.

lol I guess I didn't know Slash aka Saul was 1/2 Jewish 1/2 black back in the 80's along with Lenny Kravitz

They did not hide his racial identity, because it didn't matter.

WaterInYourBath said:

TheRIP said:

It wasn't an article. It was an audio recording, which I bought on CD. I can sell you a copy if you like.

I know what you're talking about. That was the long audio interview he did in Amsterdam in '80, with the interviewer that sounded a lot like Chris Moon, lol. Here's that part:

Interviewer: What are actually your roots? I mean, you are not a Black American, but, [stutters] you know, I mean the "Black American," [Prince mumbles: "hmm" in agreement] but where...Where do you actually come, I mean, your roots come from?

Prince: Well, my father's Black, and part Italian. And my mother's Italian, with something else.... [mumbles].

Yep and I remember him talking about his mother and her friends with blond and red hair and such

Actually this was even before Purple Rain

"I grew up on the borderline," Prince says after the show. "I had a bunch of white friends, and I had a bunch of black friends. I never grew up in any one particular culture." The son of a half-black father and an Italian mother who divorced when he was seven, Prince pretty much raised himself from the age of twelve, when he formed his first band. Oddly, he claims that the normalcy and remoteness of Minneapolis provided just artistic nourishment he needed.

ROLLING STONE, FEBRUARY 19, 1981

[Edited 7/4/10 21:51pm]

Reel said:

WaterInYourBath said:

Ha! @ that quote. I definitely believe that Prince said that. I'm just saying that even if he did in fact say that....he was lying. He lied to further his career, and to thwart limits being imposed on his music. I also think that it is important that when you claim hearing something to cite the source...which is why I asked for the source.

This should be as obvious as the sky is blue to anyone who considers themselves a long-time fan of Prince. Back in the day when radio was still segregated, Prince saw the need to do something to get out of the pigeonhole of black radio. He's stated this on many occasions. His first two albums went over well on black charts, with hardly any airplay on white radio. Dirty Mind was the obvious entry into his post-racial utopia; the band make-up, the change in musical styles, etc.

He had to perpetrate the myth of being racially ambiguous to appeal to a wider audience. Without this ambiguity, there would have been no 1999 or Purple Rain, or at least they would not have had the wide-ranging appeal they did. Plain and simple.

I remember back then when it was all the rage to be "light-skinned" it was quite popular among black people to claim that they were part this or part that. Why? I'm not sure. But race in America does some crazy things to people that defy logic.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Reel said:

Listen pretty much all African Americans know that our blood is no longer pure due to the slave trade. However, many of us have decided to adopt and identify ourselves as "Black" or African American, no matter how light our skin is. It would be ridiculous for us to adapt terms as "octoroon", or "quardroon" to identify ourselves. Which is why many people have even dropped the term "black" and we just consider ourselves "African American"...because our roots are from Africa, and we identify as being American. And just for your knowledge, Vanessa Williams is African American, she is not bi-racial.

Listen, your not the voice of African Americans

Decided is the key, not a biological truth.

The problem is anyone outside of American racial pathology get's lumped as black mostly by other African-Americans, even if the person doesn't identify as such.

Even in the Caribbean Black & Mulatto are 2 seperate groups.

You obviously are choosing to read my posts with an attitute. I never said we should use those historic term. I did say those were historic terms.

lol I know Vanessa Williams is not biracial,

Neither was Walter White or Adam Clayton Powell Jr but they both could pass for white with no problem and did at times.

Your the soul patrol huh

A large population refuses to use the term African-American, because they say we have no cultural connections and no recent anything African. Even most Africans will not consider African-American such. They say Black-American, because their evolution as people is not African.

First of all, I never said that I speak for all African Americans...HOWEVER...seeing that I AM an African American, I have more insight into the culture than you do. What I have tried to do was further educate you on American culture and the FACT that most black people do not go around in this present day considering themselves quadroons and octoroons. It's just a fact! Just because I stated this fact does not mean that I'm some how "speaking for blacks", I'm just educating you.

Now, it is obvious that individuals with African ancestry that live in other countries MAY NOT necessarily view themselves in terms of "Black and White". Though I heard Sade in an interview say "We as Black People"....and she is bi-racial, and she is European, and she considers herself black so that goes to say that even in Europe some bi-racial people consider themeselves black!

As far as what Caribbean blacks consider themselves, it ALL depends on who you ask. Some consider themselves "Coolie" which indicates a Arawak / African mixture, some just consider themselves Black...Some don't even identify with race period. They'll just say "I'm Trinidadian" etc. Those islands were colonized by several European / American countries and the attitudes regarding race concerning the natives is likewise reflected.

As far as me having an attitude...I dont. I'm merely telling you that in AMERICA we do not generally "piece meal" our racial idenity.

Wendy, for example, says, "I don't want that. I want to be right where I am. I can be strongest to this band right where I am." I personally love this band more than any other group I've every played with for that reason. Everybody knows what they have to do. I know there's something I have to do.

What sound do you get from different members of the Revolution?

Bobby Z was the first one to join. He's my best friend. Though he's not such a spectacular drummer, he watches me like no other drummer would. Sometimes, a real great drummer, like Morris, will be more concerned with the lick he is doing as opposed to how I am going to break it down.

Mark Brown's just the best bass player I know, period. I wouldn't have anybody else. If he didn't play with me, I,d eliminate bass from my music. Same goes for Matt [Fink, the keyboard player]. He's more or less a technician. He can read and write like a whiz, and is one of the fastest in the world. And Wendy makes me seem all right in the eyes of people Watching.

How so?

She keeps a smile on her face. When I sneer, she smiles. It's not premeditated, she just does it. It's a good contrast. Lisa is like my sister. She'll play what the average person won't. She'll press two notes with one finger so the chord is a lot larger, things like that. She's more abstract. She's into Joni Mitchell, too.

[Edited 7/4/10 16:45pm]

Reel said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Listen, your not the voice of African Americans

Decided is the key, not a biological truth.

The problem is anyone outside of American racial pathology get's lumped as black mostly by other African-Americans, even if the person doesn't identify as such.

Even in the Caribbean Black & Mulatto are 2 seperate groups.

You obviously are choosing to read my posts with an attitute. I never said we should use those historic term. I did say those were historic terms.

lol I know Vanessa Williams is not biracial,

Neither was Walter White or Adam Clayton Powell Jr but they both could pass for white with no problem and did at times.

Your the soul patrol huh

A large population refuses to use the term African-American, because they say we have no cultural connections and no recent anything African. Even most Africans will not consider African-American such. They say Black-American, because their evolution as people is not African.

First of all, I never said that I speak for all African Americans...HOWEVER...seeing that I AM an African American, I have more insight into the culture than you do. What I have tried to do was further educate you on American culture and the FACT that most black people do not go around in this present day considering themselves quadroons and octoroons. It's just a fact! Just because I stated this fact does not mean that I'm some how "speaking for blacks", I'm just educating you.

Now, it is obvious that individuals with African ancestry that live in other countries MAY NOT necessarily view themselves in terms of "Black and White". Though I heard Sade in an interview say "We as Black People"....and she is bi-racial, and she is European, and she considers herself black so that goes to say that even in Europe some bi-racial people consider themeselves black!

As far as what Caribbean blacks consider themselves, it ALL depends on who you ask. Some consider themselves "Coolie" which indicates a Arawak / African mixture, some just consider themselves Black...Some don't even identify with race period. They'll just say "I'm Trinidadian" etc. Those islands were colonized by several European / American countries and the attitudes regarding race concerning the natives is likewise reflected.

As far as me having an attitude...I dont. I'm merely telling you that in AMERICA we do not generally "piece meal" our racial idenity.

LOL I really mean this in jest, but your conclusion to my exlusion. I'm multiracial,

African American is a large part of who I am

I like how people allow membership or revoke it if you don't agree with them

Again I never said quadroon and octoroon is something people are doing. Listen up, it was just and explaination of of how race in American history was never so 'black n white'

and there is a growing population of youth seeking their own identify. www.mulatto.org there are tones of yahoo groups revolved around mixed heritage as well. It's definately a growing 'sub American culture'

http://thestudyofracialism.org/

Molecular Anthropology and Genetics
Color line permeability, passing, gene flow, heredity, skin tone, perception of racial traits.

History of the U.S. Color Line
When, where, how, and why the U.S. endogamous color line unfolded as it did.

History of the U.S. One-Drop Rule
When, where, how, and why the U.S. notion of invisible Blackness arose and triumphed as it did.

Latin America
Discussions of colorism, classism, and other aspects of how "race" is seen in Latin America.

International Stories
News, events, and discussion on how people from nations other than the U.S. view the "race" notion.

Ethnicity in America
Discussions related to ethnicity and ethnic identity within a hegemonic mainstream culture.

Caribbean Basin
Discussions of racialism and identity politics in the Caribbean basin, including the English-speaking Caribbean, the Spanish Caribbean, and Guyana.

Racial Identity and The Multiracial Experience
Discussions related to racial identity, with an emphasis on the American mixed race experience.

Winton Marsalis exploring Creole history and the sounds of the times of the Octoroon Balls of New Orleans

Do you really think even by the way she dates and marries that Vanessa Williams isn't concious of her mixedness?

No, you got that wrong, Yes, I still have the magazine she said it in GQ, she was not refering to herself as 100% black alone. Many biracial mixed heritage multiracial people will say that,

Kimora Lee Simmons said she is 100% Black woman, and 100% Asian woman

Lisa Bonet would correct someone and say mixed

In America things aren't that black in white underneath the surface.

I remember in college(1990) there was this biracial girl in a socialogy course for some reason ethnicity came up, she said "im not 1 color I'm 2 colors" that was her trying to express herself. Other AA students mocked her, put her down for trying to be different. And I was walking with her and there was the black guy from the class who kept calling her in the halls of people, "white girl white girl" because he obviously felt she was trying to be less black or something and she responded "I'm not 1 color I'm 2 colors" she was not trying to deny her black side at all. We got along well because we both had a mixed identity.

[Edited 7/4/10 16:34pm]

[Edited 7/4/10 18:57pm]

BlackandRising said:

Reel said:

Ha! @ that quote. I definitely believe that Prince said that. I'm just saying that even if he did in fact say that....he was lying. He lied to further his career, and to thwart limits being imposed on his music. I also think that it is important that when you claim hearing something to cite the source...which is why I asked for the source.

This should be as obvious as the sky is blue to anyone who considers themselves a long-time fan of Prince. Back in the day when radio was still segregated, Prince saw the need to do something to get out of the pigeonhole of black radio. He's stated this on many occasions. His first two albums went over well on black charts, with hardly any airplay on white radio. Dirty Mind was the obvious entry into his post-racial utopia; the band make-up, the change in musical styles, etc.

He had to perpetrate the myth of being racially ambiguous to appeal to a wider audience. Without this ambiguity, there would have been no 1999 or Purple Rain, or at least they would not have had the wide-ranging appeal they did. Plain and simple.

I remember back then when it was all the rage to be "light-skinned" it was quite popular among black people to claim that they were part this or part that. Why? I'm not sure. But race in America does some crazy things to people that defy logic.

Yep,

it's funny just reading some of that easily took me back into the those very interesting times watching Prince develope

Actually the band never changed up, they started doing shows off the 1st album For U:Bobby Z Matt Fink Gale Chapman Dez Dickerson Prince & Andre Cymone the only change that came for Dirty Mind is Gale was replaced by Lisa and Andre by BrownMark, but the racial look of the band didn't change, outside of BrownMark being darker than Andre (Andre & Prince did look like brothers too me)

Actually now, a lot of White Americans are looking into their racial past.

A lot of books are coming out of white Americans finding out about a parent grandparent great grandparent who was mixed-passed for white, married white

http://www.frenchcreoles....oyard.html

her father was a Creole man who passed for white in NYC to be an author not a black author

MOJO: It's been rumored that they all sound different, that's probably why each album you release is just a little bit different.

PRINCE: Yeah. They don't ALL sound different. There's a couple times I copied myself.

MOJO: It's alright to copy yourself.

PRINCE: You think you hit on something, right! You try to do it again...ya know? (both laugh) I try not to do that too much. If I do, then it's usually someone around, Wendy or Lisa, who says, "Hey, man, I've heard that. Put it away." And it goes away. And we don't hear from that song for a while. Mojo, guess what? We're all going to see Purple Rain tonight.

MOJO: You are?

PRINCE: Yep!

MOJO: I've seen it twelve times.

PRINCE: I've seen it too many times, but I wanna watch it again.

Speaking of brothers, some have criticized you for selling out to the white rock audience with Purple Rain, and leaving your black listeners behind. How do you respond to that?

Oh, come on, come on! Okay, let's be frank. Can we be frank? If we can't do nothing else, we might as well be frank. Seriously, I was brought up in a black-and-white world and, yes, black and white, night and day, rich and poor. I listened to all kinds of music when I was young, and when I was younger, I always said that one day I would play all kinds of music and not be judged for the color of my skin but the quality of my work, and hopefully I will continue. There are a lot of people out there that understand this, 'cause they support me and my habits, and I support them and theirs.

OldFriends4Sale said:

BlackandRising said:

This should be as obvious as the sky is blue to anyone who considers themselves a long-time fan of Prince. Back in the day when radio was still segregated, Prince saw the need to do something to get out of the pigeonhole of black radio. He's stated this on many occasions. His first two albums went over well on black charts, with hardly any airplay on white radio. Dirty Mind was the obvious entry into his post-racial utopia; the band make-up, the change in musical styles, etc.

He had to perpetrate the myth of being racially ambiguous to appeal to a wider audience. Without this ambiguity, there would have been no 1999 or Purple Rain, or at least they would not have had the wide-ranging appeal they did. Plain and simple.

I remember back then when it was all the rage to be "light-skinned" it was quite popular among black people to claim that they were part this or part that. Why? I'm not sure. But race in America does some crazy things to people that defy logic.

Yep,

it's funny just reading some of that easily took me back into the those very interesting times watching Prince develope

Actually the band never changed up, they started doing shows off the 1st album For U:Bobby Z Matt Fink Gale Chapman Dez Dickerson Prince & Andre Cymone the only change that came for Dirty Mind is Gale was replaced by Lisa and Andre by BrownMark, but the racial look of the band didn't change, outside of BrownMark being darker than Andre (Andre & Prince did look like brothers too me)

Actually now, a lot of White Americans are looking into their racial past.

A lot of books are coming out of white Americans finding out about a parent grandparent great grandparent who was mixed-passed for white, married white

http://www.frenchcreoles....oyard.html

her father was a Creole man who passed for white in NYC to be an author not a black author

Very true about the band being part of For You and Prince. I should have emphasized that the band really didn't become a visual part of public Prince as far as promotion, since For You and Prince emphasized that it was him doing everything, until Dirty Mind. The inclusion of the picture of the band on the Dirty Mind album was evident that he was trying to de-emphasize his blackness and do what he knew would help get him a more diverse audience.

OldFriends4Sale said:

2elijah said:

In reference to the bolded part. 1.)Yes in America race is defined by skin color, but you have to remember that Black doesn't just define the various skin colors (from very light to very dark) of our skin color, it involves the various cultures within this group, as a whole, who share a similar history/various lifestyles/languages/cultures/dialects/and various educational levels, socio-economic/political views and situations, just to name a few. I think that is where the confusion comes in, when many non-Americans don't seem to understand what all the term "Black" actually entails

You have to understand that Europeans can identify by their specific ethnicities, whereas with many Black Americans, where the majority are descendants of African/African-American slaves, and because of the transatlantic slave trade and the breeding process that took place by many white slave owners, (most conducted in unfortunate circumstances such as rape), led to many mixtures among Blacks of African descent, as well as other races, that are in their DNA. Unless Black Americans, individuallly do a DNA test to trace which African ethnic group's DNA runs through their veins, then it would be easier to identify by such group, but then you also cannot dismiss the fact, that African ancestry is not the only ethnicity that runs through the majority of Black Americans' veins, there's also the DNA of other race/ethnic groups, because of the breeding, and intermixing that took place in the U.S and throughout the entire Caribbean, during the transatlantic slave trade. That cannot be dismissed, because it is very much a part of us as a whole.

I hope you can understand where I am going with this, because those are some of the reasons why many refer to themselves as "Black" or African-American". Let's not forget that they were once categorized as "property" as well, and not too many white slave owners that fathered hundreds of thousands of black babies during that time, were willing to claim them as part of their race, even knowing, they were many of those black babies' fathers, and so the intermixing began, based on all I've mentioned above, let's not forget that at that time, many Blacks and Native Americans intermixed as well. But primarily as a whole, Blacks in America identify with Blacks in Africa,as part of our history and part of our identity, although the full connection, i.e., ethnicities/cultures, separated Blacks in America, from Africa, because of the transatlantic slave trade, leaving us to develop our own, various dialects/cultures, lifestyles and socio/economic/political views and situations throughout America and the Caribbean. Hope this info helps with your understanding as well.

1.) that's actually a contradiction. If skin color defined a persons race then how could Prince be black? Race is not defined by skin color. It's a social construction (social political) and the term black really didn't come into heavy use into the late 60's early 70's. Negro & Colored were the dominate terms, Mulatto was a very regular term used to. Any study of the 'Harlem Renaissance era shows a wide exporiation and allowance of a more diverse identity that what came into the 1970's Black.

I agree from an American perspective with just about everything else you said, for those looking in from the outside.

But I will say, (and I'm not trying to be a sticker for it) but the term black in refering to the children of white slave owners historically is not correct, they actually were considered mulatto

even children by a mulatto and a negro were considered mulatto:sambo was a common term too, the child of a white and a mulatto was a quadroon. But mulatto was a general term

Even during slavery I child was designated the status of the mother

Free and Slaver were more a 'racial designation' that black n white then.

If a mulatto child was born of white mother, that child was free, in the other case a slave. Which of course worked for the slave system

The idea that a 'mixed' person was black because of the African blood did not come into play until after Emmancipation Proclamation. the One Drop Rule. Prior to 1862 America had a defined 3rd race between negro & white

Walter White

There's really nothing contradictive about my statement. I am fully aware of that the system of racism was intentionally constructed by this society in the past, to maintain division and control over specific humans. I'm well aware of it. I am also aware of the biracial chidren conceived by white males during slavery, by rape of African women and the breeding process. i'm also aware that people in different countries don't describe non-blacks in their countries by a skin color, but whether they agree or not, that is how the system in America is. Americans/non-Americans don't have to accept that, but that is how it is here. Not to mention, being a daughter and sister of some of my siblings, both parents/granparents/great-grandparents(maternal/paternal) who were born in various parts of the Caribbean (USVirgin Islands/British Virgin Islands (Tortola/Virgin Gorda),. where people in the Caribbean define themselves more by the island they are from moreso, than skin color like in the U.S., yes I am aware that not everyone defines blacks by skin color. I am also aware of the many skin tones Blacks in the U.S., Caribbean, and other parts of the world come in various shades (light to dark skin).

To get into a deep discuasion about this wll take the thread further off the threads topic, but I'm just responding to your comments.

Secondly, many are aware of the system of race and the BS one-drop rule, that's old news. It still does not discount the fact that Prince recently included himself as part of the Black community, and quite frankly I think that is exactly what has a few of his fans surprised, from those comments he made in the Ebony interview, and I truly believe that is the reason we are seeing quite a few of these type threads, popping up on the org lately.

I believe many fans still do not want to accept that, becasue of how he portrayed himself back in the 80s. Point is, today we see a different Prince who seems to be more accepting of who he is, as a black male, and includes himself as part of the black community. Unfortunately, many fans will continue to deny or accept that, and will continue to find ways to water it down, by posting articles of statements he made in the past, to diminish him as a black male, and find many ways to point him more towards being white, because it makes some fans feel "safer" so to speak.. Point is, he's already made it clear who he is, and there's not a thing any fan can do about that other than accept and embrace who he is or move on. That's bout it, but thank you for your input.

[Edited 7/4/10 18:05pm]

OldFriends4Sale said:

Reel said:

First of all, I never said that I speak for all African Americans...HOWEVER...seeing that I AM an African American, I have more insight into the culture than you do. What I have tried to do was further educate you on American culture and the FACT that most black people do not go around in this present day considering themselves quadroons and octoroons. It's just a fact! Just because I stated this fact does not mean that I'm some how "speaking for blacks", I'm just educating you.

Now, it is obvious that individuals with African ancestry that live in other countries MAY NOT necessarily view themselves in terms of "Black and White". Though I heard Sade in an interview say "We as Black People"....and she is bi-racial, and she is European, and she considers herself black so that goes to say that even in Europe some bi-racial people consider themeselves black!

As far as what Caribbean blacks consider themselves, it ALL depends on who you ask. Some consider themselves "Coolie" which indicates a Arawak / African mixture, some just consider themselves Black...Some don't even identify with race period. They'll just say "I'm Trinidadian" etc. Those islands were colonized by several European / American countries and the attitudes regarding race concerning the natives is likewise reflected.

As far as me having an attitude...I dont. I'm merely telling you that in AMERICA we do not generally "piece meal" our racial idenity.

LOL I really mean this in jest, but your conclusion to my exlusion. I'm multiracial,

African American is a large part of who I am

I like how people allow membership or revolke it if you don't agree with them

Again I never said quadroon and octoroon is something people are doing. Listen up, it was just and explaination of of how race in American history was never so 'black n white'

Do you really think even by the way she dates and marries that Vanessa Williams isn't concious of her mixedness?

No, you got that wrong, Yes, I still have the magazine she said it in GQ, she was not refering to herself as 100% black alone. Many biracial mixed heritage multiracial people will say that,

Kimora Lee Simmons said she is 100% Black woman, and 100% Asian woman

Lisa Bonet would correct someone and say mixed

In America things aren't that black in white underneath the surface.

I remember in college(1990) there was this biracial girl in a socialogy course for some reason ethnicity came up, she said "im not 1 color I'm 2 colors" that was her trying to express herself. Other AA students mocked her, put her down for trying to be different. And I was walking with her and there was the black guy from the class who kept calling her in the halls of people, "white girl white girl" because he obviously felt she was trying to be less black or something and she responded "I'm not 1 color I'm 2 colors" she was not trying to deny her black side at all. We got along well because we both had a mixed identity.

[Edited 7/4/10 16:34pm]

You are a "Large Part" African American huh?

Reel said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

LOL I really mean this in jest, but your conclusion to my exlusion. I'm multiracial,

African American is a large part of who I am

I like how people allow membership or revolke it if you don't agree with them

Again I never said quadroon and octoroon is something people are doing. Listen up, it was just and explaination of of how race in American history was never so 'black n white'

Do you really think even by the way she dates and marries that Vanessa Williams isn't concious of her mixedness?

No, you got that wrong, Yes, I still have the magazine she said it in GQ, she was not refering to herself as 100% black alone. Many biracial mixed heritage multiracial people will say that,

Kimora Lee Simmons said she is 100% Black woman, and 100% Asian woman

Lisa Bonet would correct someone and say mixed

In America things aren't that black in white underneath the surface.

I remember in college(1990) there was this biracial girl in a socialogy course for some reason ethnicity came up, she said "im not 1 color I'm 2 colors" that was her trying to express herself. Other AA students mocked her, put her down for trying to be different. And I was walking with her and there was the black guy from the class who kept calling her in the halls of people, "white girl white girl" because he obviously felt she was trying to be less black or something and she responded "I'm not 1 color I'm 2 colors" she was not trying to deny her black side at all. We got along well because we both had a mixed identity.

[Edited 7/4/10 16:34pm]

You are a "Large Part" African American huh?

African American is a large part of who I am

lol funny how if you change up the wording it's saying something different

No I mean African American ethnicity & understanding is something that I focus on because it's critiqued more and people don't always understand multiracial yet. It has negative and positive affects on how biracial and multiracial identify is viewed or formed.

But I love understanding all faucets of sub American cultures whether it be urban suburban jazz underground Prince;-) Creole Italian etc etc

Is she the closest Prince ever came to having someone Asian in the band?

[Edited 7/4/10 21:53pm]

2elijah said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

1.) that's actually a contradiction. If skin color defined a persons race then how could Prince be black? Race is not defined by skin color. It's a social construction (social political) and the term black really didn't come into heavy use into the late 60's early 70's. Negro & Colored were the dominate terms, Mulatto was a very regular term used to. Any study of the 'Harlem Renaissance era shows a wide exporiation and allowance of a more diverse identity that what came into the 1970's Black.

I agree from an American perspective with just about everything else you said, for those looking in from the outside.

But I will say, (and I'm not trying to be a sticker for it) but the term black in refering to the children of white slave owners historically is not correct, they actually were considered mulatto

even children by a mulatto and a negro were considered mulatto:sambo was a common term too, the child of a white and a mulatto was a quadroon. But mulatto was a general term

Even during slavery I child was designated the status of the mother

Free and Slaver were more a 'racial designation' that black n white then.

If a mulatto child was born of white mother, that child was free, in the other case a slave. Which of course worked for the slave system

The idea that a 'mixed' person was black because of the African blood did not come into play until after Emmancipation Proclamation. the One Drop Rule. Prior to 1862 America had a defined 3rd race between negro & white

Walter White

There's really nothing contradictive about my statement. I am fully aware of that the system of racism was intentionally constructed by this society in the past, to maintain division and control over specific humans. I'm well aware of it. I am also aware of the biracial chidren conceived by white males during slavery, by rape of African women and the breeding process. i'm also aware that people in different countries don't describe non-blacks in their countries by a skin color, but whether they agree or not, that is how the system in America is. Americans/non-Americans don't have to accept that, but that is how it is here. Not to mention, being a daughter and sister of some of my siblings, both parents/granparents/great-grandparents(maternal/paternal) who were born in various parts of the Caribbean (USVirgin Islands/British Virgin Islands (Tortola/Virgin Gorda),. where people in the Caribbean define themselves more by the island they are from moreso, than skin color like in the U.S., yes I am aware that not everyone defines blacks by skin color. I am also aware of the many skin tones Blacks in the U.S., Caribbean, and other parts of the world come in various shades (light to dark skin).

To get into a deep discuasion about this wll take the thread further off the threads topic, but I'm just responding to your comments.

Secondly, many are aware of the system of race and the BS one-drop rule, that's old news. It still does not discount the fact that Prince recently included himself as part of the Black community, and quite frankly I think that is exactly what has a few of his fans surprised, from those comments he made in the Ebony interview, and I truly believe that is the reason we are seeing quite a few of these type threads, popping up on the org lately.

I believe many fans still do not want to accept that, becasue of how he portrayed himself back in the 80s. Point is, today we see a different Prince who seems to be more accepting of who he is, as a black male, and includes himself as part of the black community. Unfortunately, many fans will continue to deny or accept that, and will continue to find ways to water it down, by posting articles of statements he made in the past, to diminish him as a black male, and find many ways to point him more towards being white, because it makes some fans feel "safer" so to speak.. Point is, he's already made it clear who he is, and there's not a thing any fan can do about that other than accept and embrace who he is or move on. That's bout it, but thank you for your input.

[Edited 7/4/10 18:05pm]

1.)Yes in America race is defined by skin color,

I'm not responding 2 U as much to the statement, I've heard this many times before

It's contradictory in the that a persons race being defined by their skin tone might put white people Native Americans and Indians in the Black race and because of mixture would put 'black' people in the white race if race is defined by skin color

A friend of mine (Sicilian) dates black men, I went to her office one day and saw a few pictures up on her wall that I never saw before, one was her sitting next to a very dark skinned man. From a distance I assumed he was AA and possibly dating her. She laughed and said "No that's my brother" If we go by his skin color his race should be Black. And she would be black in the Spring & Summer because she naturally get's a deep brown color and white or Med in the winter because she lightens

Also it's propoganda that all mixed unions were the result of rape, it was seriously a part of it, but people living side by side and working in the same house etc etc human nature takes over. Slave women knew the possibility of priviledge for their children if they had white blood or the blood of the master. A lot of mixed unions were Slaves side by side with White(generally poor, Irish) indentured servants or just poor whites.

Definately an unequal system, but nothing new to world societies as a whole.

One Drop Rule is very much integrated into AA thought, that's why someone 1/2 white automatically become Black to many and they will make sure that person knows it. I was asked recently by an AA girl "what are you, what are you mixed with" I told her and she told me "well your still just a nigga"

A lot of AA want Prince to just be Black, not to divert from that, for self esteem reasons at times.

Prince has always had an affiliation with Black America. So I don't know why it needs to be stated so deeply that 'Prince is Black' I would love to have a talk with him about race and how he views himself

Every place is different thought. AA's in NYC may think culturally very much different from those in Charleston SC versus those in San Diego

Good conversation

[Edited 7/4/10 21:46pm]

OldFriends4Sale said:

2elijah said:

There's really nothing contradictive about my statement. I am fully aware of that the system of racism was intentionally constructed by this society in the past, to maintain division and control over specific humans. I'm well aware of it. I am also aware of the biracial chidren conceived by white males during slavery, by rape of African women and the breeding process. i'm also aware that people in different countries don't describe non-blacks in their countries by a skin color, but whether they agree or not, that is how the system in America is. Americans/non-Americans don't have to accept that, but that is how it is here. Not to mention, being a daughter and sister of some of my siblings, both parents/granparents/great-grandparents(maternal/paternal) who were born in various parts of the Caribbean (USVirgin Islands/British Virgin Islands (Tortola/Virgin Gorda),. where people in the Caribbean define themselves more by the island they are from moreso, than skin color like in the U.S., yes I am aware that not everyone defines blacks by skin color. I am also aware of the many skin tones Blacks in the U.S., Caribbean, and other parts of the world come in various shades (light to dark skin).

To get into a deep discuasion about this wll take the thread further off the threads topic, but I'm just responding to your comments.

Secondly, many are aware of the system of race and the BS one-drop rule, that's old news. It still does not discount the fact that Prince recently included himself as part of the Black community, and quite frankly I think that is exactly what has a few of his fans surprised, from those comments he made in the Ebony interview, and I truly believe that is the reason we are seeing quite a few of these type threads, popping up on the org lately.

I believe many fans still do not want to accept that, becasue of how he portrayed himself back in the 80s. Point is, today we see a different Prince who seems to be more accepting of who he is, as a black male, and includes himself as part of the black community. Unfortunately, many fans will continue to deny or accept that, and will continue to find ways to water it down, by posting articles of statements he made in the past, to diminish him as a black male, and find many ways to point him more towards being white, because it makes some fans feel "safer" so to speak.. Point is, he's already made it clear who he is, and there's not a thing any fan can do about that other than accept and embrace who he is or move on. That's bout it, but thank you for your input.

[Edited 7/4/10 18:05pm]

1.)Yes in America race is defined by skin color,

I'm not responding 2 U as much to the statement, I've heard this many times before

It's contradictory in the that a persons race being defined by their skin tone might put white people Native Americans and Indians in the Black race and because of mixture would put 'black' people in the white race if race is defined by skin color

A friend of mine (Sicilian) dates black men, I went to her office one day and saw a few pictures up on her wall that I never saw before, one was her sitting next to a very dark skinned man. From a distance I assumed he was AA and possibly dating her. She laughed and said "No that's my brother" If we go by his skin color his race should be Black. And she would be black in the Spring & Summer because she naturally get's a deep brown color and white or Med in the winter because she lightens

Also it's propoganda that all mixed unions were the result of rape, it was seriously a part of it, but people living side by side and working in the same house etc etc human nature takes over. Slave women knew the possibility of priviledge for their children if they had white blood or the blood of the master. A lot of mixed unions were Slaves side by side with White(generally poor, Irish) indentured servants or just poor whites.

Definately an unequal system, but nothing new to world societies as a whole.

One Drop Rule is very much integrated into AA thought, that's why someone 1/2 white automatically become Black to many and they will make sure that person knows it. I was asked recently by an AA girl "what are you, what are you mixed with" I told her and she told me "well your still just a nigga"

A lot of AA want Prince to just be Black, not to divert from that, for self esteem reasons at times.

Prince has always had an affiliation with Black America. So I don't know why it needs to be stated so deeply that 'Prince is Black' I would love to have a talk with him about race and how he views himself

Every place is different thought. AA's in NYC may think culturally very much different from those in Charleston SC versus those in San Diego

Good conversation

[Edited 7/4/10 18:44pm]

The more and more I read your text, the more that I think you are a farce...a fraud.

So you mean to tell me that a black slave woman deliberately was impregnated to have children (that she did not need to have) that she would likely eventually be separated from forcably...just so that chlild can have some degree of "priviledge"? How much "priviledge" do you think biracial slaves had? Perhaps they were given the less tedious jobs, allowed to work in the "House" but they were SLAVES nonetheless. That's crazy and absurd, and sounds like you need to do your homework more.

And your Sicilian friend's brother "looks black" because he is! The Moors cultivated, and culturated parts of Europe (Spain) and particularly Italy...which is why Sicilians in particular share different physical characteristics than their Northern counterparts. I think you should go to that "website" that you tried to refer me to and do a little more studying.

Also sounds like you are venting out some frustration regarding wanting to be accepted as Multi-racial. Hey, you can be whatever you want to be, nobody on this board is trying to force YOU to identify as black.

Now, back to the discussion of Prince and his band being "less diverse".

Reel said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

1.)Yes in America race is defined by skin color,

I'm not responding 2 U as much to the statement, I've heard this many times before

It's contradictory in the that a persons race being defined by their skin tone might put white people Native Americans and Indians in the Black race and because of mixture would put 'black' people in the white race if race is defined by skin color

A friend of mine (Sicilian) dates black men, I went to her office one day and saw a few pictures up on her wall that I never saw before, one was her sitting next to a very dark skinned man. From a distance I assumed he was AA and possibly dating her. She laughed and said "No that's my brother" If we go by his skin color his race should be Black. And she would be black in the Spring & Summer because she naturally get's a deep brown color and white or Med in the winter because she lightens

Also it's propoganda that all mixed unions were the result of rape, it was seriously a part of it, but people living side by side and working in the same house etc etc human nature takes over. Slave women knew the possibility of priviledge for their children if they had white blood or the blood of the master. A lot of mixed unions were Slaves side by side with White(generally poor, Irish) indentured servants or just poor whites.

Definately an unequal system, but nothing new to world societies as a whole.

One Drop Rule is very much integrated into AA thought, that's why someone 1/2 white automatically become Black to many and they will make sure that person knows it. I was asked recently by an AA girl "what are you, what are you mixed with" I told her and she told me "well your still just a nigga"

A lot of AA want Prince to just be Black, not to divert from that, for self esteem reasons at times.

Prince has always had an affiliation with Black America. So I don't know why it needs to be stated so deeply that 'Prince is Black' I would love to have a talk with him about race and how he views himself

Every place is different thought. AA's in NYC may think culturally very much different from those in Charleston SC versus those in San Diego

Good conversation

[Edited 7/4/10 18:44pm]

The more and more I read your text, the more that I think you are a farce...a fraud.

So you mean to tell me that a black slave woman deliberately was impregnated to have children (that she did not need to have) that she would likely eventually be separated from forcably...just so that chlild can have some degree of "priviledge"? How much "priviledge" do you think biracial slaves had? Perhaps they were given the less tedious jobs, allowed to work in the "House" but they were SLAVES nonetheless. That's crazy and absurd, and sounds like you need to do your homework more.

And your Sicilian friend's brother "looks black" because he is! The Moors cultivated, and culturated parts of Europe (Spain) and particularly Italy...which is why Sicilians in particular share different physical characteristics than their Northern counterparts. I think you should go to that "website" that you tried to refer me to and do a little more studying.

Also sounds like you are venting out some frustration regarding wanting to be accepted as Multi-racial. Hey, you can be whatever you want to be, nobody on this board is trying to force YOU to identify as black.

Now, back to the discussion of Prince and his band being "less diverse".

lol Soul Patrol

Things are never so plain and laid out as you make it.

Thomas Jefferson had children by his 'mulatta' slave Sally Hemmings, she went to France with him, learned skills and trade and all of her children were freed.

many children of the masta were secretly taught to read and learn a trade, sometimes, non mixed Slaves as well depending on the relationship with the Master and family.

Maybe you should watch QUEEN the story of Alex Haley(Roots) other side of the family.

Your thoughts don't come as someone studied but someone who accepts afrocentric ideas of the blue eyed devil and rape. It never fits that neatly. Slavery is nothing unique to America, the caste system that developes is very similar to any other slavery in world history.

Read up on Creole society and the placage system of Quadroon & Octoroon women setting up house with French & white men rearing children and having a 'life' Vanesse Williams starred in a made 4 tv movie spotlighting a quadroon woman who went against that system.

lol so something that happened over a 3000 yrs ago makes Italians & Sicilians black? A concept that didn't come into play until the late 1800's? That's called the 1 Drop Rule 'brutha' 1 drop of black blood makes 1 black...

lol many/woman I was born in 1972 my parent raised me very secure in who I am and my dad being a army vet made sure we knew we were American above all else, never put any "you can't do that, you can't go there in our heads" lol you funny

Is Carley Simon black since her mother is 1/2 black 1/2 white?

Well I guess the truth finally came out of you.

The One-Drop Rule

The one-drop rule is the U.S. tradition that someone of utterly European appearance who rejects an African-American self-identity is "really Black," like it or not, due to having “one drop” of known African ancestry, no matter how ancient. The notion labels such people as merely "passing for White." Recent examples are New York Times critic Anatole Broyard (a real person) and Anthony Hopkins’s character in the film "The Human Stain" (a fictional character). Such people are involuntarily classified as members of the U.S. Black endogamous group by press and public despite their European appearance and their freely chosen non-Black self-identity.

Manifestation of Conflict Between Two Myths

The one-drop rule is a manifestation of the conflict between the U.S. myth that "race" is determined by appearance (skin tone, hair texture, facial features) and the contradictory but equally strongly held myth that "race" is determined by ancestry. ("Myth" in this context simply denotes a mandatory belief taught to young Americans in order to exemplify social standards that they will be expected to follow in adulthood.) On the one hand, most Americans agree that someone who looks Black is Black, even if their parents did not self-identify as African Americans (African-looking immigrants from Cuba, for instance). But most Americans also agree that someone born into the African-American community who looks completely White is also Black in some intangible sense.

Unique to the United States

It is hard for residents of other countries to grasp that the notion of invisible Blackness is widely accepted, and often legally enforced, in the United States today. To most people around the world, the claim that someone "looks White but is really Black" is as nonsensical as saying that someone "looks tall but is really short, just passing as tall" or "looks fat but is really thin, just passing as fat." In every other nation on earth, if you look White and consider yourself White, then you are White.

Unique to the Black/White U.S. Dichotomy

An American may legally claim to be 1/4 Cherokee, 1/4 Irish, or 1/4 Russian and still choose some other ethnic self-identity (German, say). But an American who admits to being 1/4 Black is not given such a choice. Unlike every other U.S. ethnicity, you cannot legally choose to be partly African-American. The one-drop rule is enforced at the highest levels of the U.S. federal government. If you check off more than one "race" box in the U.S. census and one of the boxes was "Black" then you are classified as solely Black, no matter how many other boxes you checked. (See for example New Life for the "One Drop" Rule or New Policy on Census Says Those Listed as White and Minority Will Be Counted as Minority.)

Historically Had Nothing to do With Slavery

Like most U.S. myths regarding that nation's unique endogamous color line, folkloric tradition says that it has something to do with slavery. Specifically, popular culture as well as U.S. academia, liberals as well as conservatives, teach Americans to blame long-dead slavery for their currently enforced polity. (This resembles the way that Americans blame slavery for their racialism and their endogamous color line, although slavery was ubiquitous while the latter phenomena remain unique to the United States.)

The actual legal connection between slavery and physical appearance was precisely the reverse. A person of any visible European ancestry was presumed to be free. The court cases Gobu v. Gobu (1802 NC), Hudgins v. Wrights (1806 VA), and Adelle v. Beauregard (1810 LA) established the U.S. caselaw that if you had any discernible European ancestry you were presumed free, and the burden was on the alleged slave owner to prove that you were legally a slave through matrilineal descent. This law was then followed in hundreds of court cases without exception until U.S. slavery was ended by the 13th Amendment.

Even a cursory examination of the historical court case records shows that the notion of invisible Blackness first appeared in the free states of the Ohio valley in the 1830s, was not accepted in the south until long after the Civil war, and first became statutory in 1910.

Historically Enforced More by Blacks Than by Whites

Except for one 50-year period of U.S. history, the one-drop rule has been believed more strongly and enforced more harshly by African-American political leaders than by White Americans.

The exceptional period was the Jim Crow era of state-sponsored terrorism against its African-American citizens. During the Jim Crow period, which ended around 1965, the one-drop rule kept compassionate White families in line by legally exiling to Blackness any who defended Blacks against the terror. During this period, the one-drop rule was never legally applied in court to any family who self-identified as Black. It was used only against Whites.

In all other periods, from the 1830s to today, the one-drop rule was and remains an instrument of intra-ethnic coercion by African American political leaders against those born into the African American community who choose to self-identify as something other than "Black" in adulthood.

[Edited 7/4/10 21:44pm]

OldFriends4Sale said:

Reel said:

The more and more I read your text, the more that I think you are a farce...a fraud.

So you mean to tell me that a black slave woman deliberately was impregnated to have children (that she did not need to have) that she would likely eventually be separated from forcably...just so that chlild can have some degree of "priviledge"? How much "priviledge" do you think biracial slaves had? Perhaps they were given the less tedious jobs, allowed to work in the "House" but they were SLAVES nonetheless. That's crazy and absurd, and sounds like you need to do your homework more.

And your Sicilian friend's brother "looks black" because he is! The Moors cultivated, and culturated parts of Europe (Spain) and particularly Italy...which is why Sicilians in particular share different physical characteristics than their Northern counterparts. I think you should go to that "website" that you tried to refer me to and do a little more studying.

Also sounds like you are venting out some frustration regarding wanting to be accepted as Multi-racial. Hey, you can be whatever you want to be, nobody on this board is trying to force YOU to identify as black.

Now, back to the discussion of Prince and his band being "less diverse".

lol Soul Patrol

Things are never so plain and laid out as you make it.

Thomas Jefferson had children by his 'mulatta' slave Sally Hemmings, she went to France with him, learned skills and trade and all of her children were freed.

many children of the masta were secretly taught to read and learn a trade, sometimes, non mixed Slaves as well depending on the relationship with the Master and family.

Maybe you should watch QUEEN the story of Alex Haley(Roots) other side of the family.

Your thoughts don't come as someone studied but someone who accepts afrocentric ideas of the blue eyed devil and rape. It never fits that neatly. Slavery is nothing unique to America, the caste system that developes is very similar to any other slavery in world history.

Read up on Creole society and the placage system of Quadroon & Octoroon women setting up house with French & white men rearing children and having a 'life' Vanesse Williams starred in a made 4 tv movie spotlighting a quadroon woman who went against that system.

lol so something that happened over a 3000 yrs ago makes Italians & Sicilians black? A concept that didn't come into play until the late 1800's? That's called the 1 Drop Rule 'brutha' 1 drop of black blood makes 1 black...

lol many/woman I was born in 1972 my parent raised me very secure in who I am and my dad being a army vet made sure we knew we were American above all else, never put any "you can't do that, you can't go there in our heads" lol you funny

Is Carley Simon black since her mother is 1/2 black 1/2 white?

Well I guess the truth finally came out of you.

The One-Drop Rule

The one-drop rule is the U.S. tradition that someone of utterly European appearance who rejects an African-American self-identity is "really Black," like it or not, due to having “one drop” of known African ancestry, no matter how ancient. The notion labels such people as merely "passing for White." Recent examples are New York Times critic Anatole Broyard (a real person) and Anthony Hopkins’s character in the film "The Human Stain" (a fictional character). Such people are involuntarily classified as members of the U.S. Black endogamous group by press and public despite their European appearance and their freely chosen non-Black self-identity.

Manifestation of Conflict Between Two Myths

The one-drop rule is a manifestation of the conflict between the U.S. myth that "race" is determined by appearance (skin tone, hair texture, facial features) and the contradictory but equally strongly held myth that "race" is determined by ancestry. ("Myth" in this context simply denotes a mandatory belief taught to young Americans in order to exemplify social standards that they will be expected to follow in adulthood.) On the one hand, most Americans agree that someone who looks Black is Black, even if their parents did not self-identify as African Americans (African-looking immigrants from Cuba, for instance). But most Americans also agree that someone born into the African-American community who looks completely White is also Black in some intangible sense.

Unique to the United States

It is hard for residents of other countries to grasp that the notion of invisible Blackness is widely accepted, and often legally enforced, in the United States today. To most people around the world, the claim that someone "looks White but is really Black" is as nonsensical as saying that someone "looks tall but is really short, just passing as tall" or "looks fat but is really thin, just passing as fat." In every other nation on earth, if you look White and consider yourself White, then you are White.

Unique to the Black/White U.S. Dichotomy

An American may legally claim to be 1/4 Cherokee, 1/4 Irish, or 1/4 Russian and still choose some other ethnic self-identity (German, say). But an American who admits to being 1/4 Black is not given such a choice. Unlike every other U.S. ethnicity, you cannot legally choose to be partly African-American. The one-drop rule is enforced at the highest levels of the U.S. federal government. If you check off more than one "race" box in the U.S. census and one of the boxes was "Black" then you are classified as solely Black, no matter how many other boxes you checked. (See for example New Life for the "One Drop" Rule or New Policy on Census Says Those Listed as White and Minority Will Be Counted as Minority.)

Historically Had Nothing to do With Slavery

Like most U.S. myths regarding that nation's unique endogamous color line, folkloric tradition says that it has something to do with slavery. Specifically, popular culture as well as U.S. academia, liberals as well as conservatives, teach Americans to blame long-dead slavery for their currently enforced polity. (This resembles the way that Americans blame slavery for their racialism and their endogamous color line, although slavery was ubiquitous while the latter phenomena remain unique to the United States.)

The actual legal connection between slavery and physical appearance was precisely the reverse. A person of any visible European ancestry was presumed to be free. The court cases Gobu v. Gobu (1802 NC), Hudgins v. Wrights (1806 VA), and Adelle v. Beauregard (1810 LA) established the U.S. caselaw that if you had any discernible European ancestry you were presumed free, and the burden was on the alleged slave owner to prove that you were legally a slave through matrilineal descent. This law was then followed in hundreds of court cases without exception until U.S. slavery was ended by the 13th Amendment.

Even a cursory examination of the historical court case records shows that the notion of invisible Blackness first appeared in the free states of the Ohio valley in the 1830s, was not accepted in the south until long after the Civil war, and first became statutory in 1910.

Historically Enforced More by Blacks Than by Whites

Except for one 50-year period of U.S. history, the one-drop rule has been believed more strongly and enforced more harshly by African-American political leaders than by White Americans.

The exceptional period was the Jim Crow era of state-sponsored terrorism against its African-American citizens. During the Jim Crow period, which ended around 1965, the one-drop rule kept compassionate White families in line by legally exiling to Blackness any who defended Blacks against the terror. During this period, the one-drop rule was never legally applied in court to any family who self-identified as Black. It was used only against Whites.

In all other periods, from the 1830s to today, the one-drop rule was and remains an instrument of intra-ethnic coercion by African American political leaders against those born into the African American community who choose to self-identify as something other than "Black" in adulthood.

Sounds like you are on some sort of journey to "redeem" yourself as multi-cultural and to point out why all light complexioned blacks are "not really black". I'm going to kill this discussion because you have not added to my knowledge, and I appear to definitely not be adding to yours. Many black people are WELL AWARE of what you posted, yet we STILL continue to identify as we wish...BLACK!

So you can take your post and pass them on to people who somehow "don't know".

lol pride goeth be4 a fall

2 know something is wrong and still walk that way?

alright I done wringing U out,

Seeing Shelby with Prince at the BET Awards really made me miss the Twinz

Reel said:

Now, it is obvious that individuals with African ancestry that live in other countries MAY NOT necessarily view themselves in terms of "Black and White". Though I heard Sade in an interview say "We as Black People"....and she is bi-racial, and she is European, and she considers herself black so that goes to say that even in Europe some bi-racial people consider themeselves black!

Just a note about Sade - it's worth remembering, that Sade is a first generation immigrant with half her culture coming directly from Nigeria (her mother was from England). Yes, an American would probably say she was bi-racial, but in Europe, she'd be considered bi-cultural rather than "black". I imagine though, as a 1st generation immegrant, that she'd drawn towards other people from Nigeria and identify with this group (which, because of the obvious location of Nigeria, would also be black).

I can't make any claim to how Sade feels or what precisely "black" means to her, but as I wrote earlier, "bi-racial"- the word in itself - would be considered racist in much of Europe, as it would be more common to describe her roots as "culturally split".

So I'd guess, that Sade, when using the term "We as black people", says so with an European angle, and therefore means either "We the Nigerians" or "We the immigrants", since in a European perspective, that would make much much more sense, as it would address feelings of cultural alienation (oh! There's definitely people who'd want anyone "foreign" to feel alienated in Europe, especially those that a recognasiably "foreign").

Another thing to remember, when we're talking about people of color and especially people with roots in Africa, in an European context, is that the history of slavery and the emmancipation of European slaves ended very differently in Europe, than in the US. A controversial claim (and one I personally believe in) is that while American slaves were liberated and had to fight for the right to exist as human beings and later Americans; European slaves more or less were left in Africa, an entire continent fucked by Europeans and Americans with infrastructures demolished and cultures either killed or bend to white mens will .. and has never really been able to heal. These, I believe, are the "black people" Sade identify with, I believe, unlike Prince, who probably identify with black people, as in "anyone American whose starting point was in African slavery"(?).

How ever, I can't say for certain, and I certainly don't know if she identify more with the African American community than her own Nigerian community, but I thought I'd comment from a European pespective, hoping no one minds.

Very interesting debate still.

[Edited 7/5/10 2:24am]

OldFriends4Sale said:

2elijah said:

There's really nothing contradictive about my statement. I am fully aware of that the system of racism was intentionally constructed by this society in the past, to maintain division and control over specific humans. I'm well aware of it. I am also aware of the biracial chidren conceived by white males during slavery, by rape of African women and the breeding process. i'm also aware that people in different countries don't describe non-blacks in their countries by a skin color, but whether they agree or not, that is how the system in America is. Americans/non-Americans don't have to accept that, but that is how it is here. Not to mention, being a daughter and sister of some of my siblings, both parents/granparents/great-grandparents(maternal/paternal) who were born in various parts of the Caribbean (USVirgin Islands/British Virgin Islands (Tortola/Virgin Gorda),. where people in the Caribbean define themselves more by the island they are from moreso, than skin color like in the U.S., yes I am aware that not everyone defines blacks by skin color. I am also aware of the many skin tones Blacks in the U.S., Caribbean, and other parts of the world come in various shades (light to dark skin).

To get into a deep discuasion about this wll take the thread further off the threads topic, but I'm just responding to your comments.

Secondly, many are aware of the system of race and the BS one-drop rule, that's old news. It still does not discount the fact that Prince recently included himself as part of the Black community, and quite frankly I think that is exactly what has a few of his fans surprised, from those comments he made in the Ebony interview, and I truly believe that is the reason we are seeing quite a few of these type threads, popping up on the org lately.

I believe many fans still do not want to accept that, becasue of how he portrayed himself back in the 80s. Point is, today we see a different Prince who seems to be more accepting of who he is, as a black male, and includes himself as part of the black community. Unfortunately, many fans will continue to deny or accept that, and will continue to find ways to water it down, by posting articles of statements he made in the past, to diminish him as a black male, and find many ways to point him more towards being white, because it makes some fans feel "safer" so to speak.. Point is, he's already made it clear who he is, and there's not a thing any fan can do about that other than accept and embrace who he is or move on. That's bout it, but thank you for your input.

[Edited 7/4/10 18:05pm]

1.)Yes in America race is defined by skin color,

I'm not responding 2 U as much to the statement, I've heard this many times before

It's contradictory in the that a persons race being defined by their skin tone might put white people Native Americans and Indians in the Black race and because of mixture would put 'black' people in the white race if race is defined by skin color

A friend of mine (Sicilian) dates black men, I went to her office one day and saw a few pictures up on her wall that I never saw before, one was her sitting next to a very dark skinned man. From a distance I assumed he was AA and possibly dating her. She laughed and said "No that's my brother" If we go by his skin color his race should be Black. And she would be black in the Spring & Summer because she naturally get's a deep brown color and white or Med in the winter because she lightens

Also it's propoganda that all mixed unions were the result of rape, it was seriously a part of it, but people living side by side and working in the same house etc etc human nature takes over. Slave women knew the possibility of priviledge for their children if they had white blood or the blood of the master. A lot of mixed unions were Slaves side by side with White(generally poor, Irish) indentured servants or just poor whites.

Definately an unequal system, but nothing new to world societies as a whole.

One Drop Rule is very much integrated into AA thought, that's why someone 1/2 white automatically become Black to many and they will make sure that person knows it. I was asked recently by an AA girl "what are you, what are you mixed with" I told her and she told me "well your still just a nigga"

A lot of AA want Prince to just be Black, not to divert from that, for self esteem reasons at times.

Prince has always had an affiliation with Black America. So I don't know why it needs to be stated so deeply that 'Prince is Black' I would love to have a talk with him about race and how he views himself

Every place is different thought. AA's in NYC may think culturally very much different from those in Charleston SC versus those in San Diego

Good conversation

[Edited 7/4/10 21:46pm]

Thanks for responding to my post OFFS. I was at a family event yesterday, and gave a quick response to your post, so I wasn't able to fully respond at that time. Once again it is not contradictory how I explained race is used or has been used in the past or present.

You could look at an individual and may think they are from a particular group, but they are actually from another, and that is just based on first glance. I use the term "race" in this context to connect the person to a possible ethnic group or culture I believe they may be from, based on my own knowledge/education, and according to society's standards and definition of "race" in "present day", although I am aware of the original definition and intention of the system of "race".

The one-drop rule is not something I've never heard of. I've lived long enough to understand the race/class system set up by this country's earlier ancestors and what their original intentions were, regarding maintaining division/control over specific groups, as well as the reasons behind why they attached those specific labels to specific groups.

But let's be real, regardless of the one-drop rule's role in this society, in the past and its main interntions, the intentions of that was also for slave owners/traders to label specific groups as "slaves or property" for the purpose of owning or increasing their wealth, and also to use them as collateral/insurance and inheritance packages, in case of hard times, as well as the slave owner/trader using them like a source of capital/money, to trade/sell or buy. Even the biracial babies conceived through rape/breeding process by slave owners through African, slave females, , where many of the female biracial, young female girls/women, worked in the slave owner's houses and many became concubines/sex slaves to many white males at that time, even some by many of their slave-owing white fathers, and this is a fact by the way (read "Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl). I am not speaking of present-day biracial children, conceived through sincere biracial relationships, I am referring to those born during the era of slavery in those conditions, when I speak of the conception of many biracial children/adults of that time, born into slavery by black slave women and white slave-owners.

Let's not forget after slavery, many biracial adults were in relationships during slavery/post-slavery with Blacks who were conceived by other blacks, and had children of their own, generation after generation, where many Blacks today are descendants of all of those people, including having white ancestors in their family background. My point in my earlier posts is that many Black families living today have white ancestors, as well as other non-black ancestors' DNA running through their veins, besides the DNA from many Aftrican-ethnic groups. You cannot just look at an individual and assume, by their skin color alone, that their skin color is all that makes up who that individual is. Today, Blacks as as a whole, living in American society today, come from various cultures/ethnic groups/live various lifestyles, are in various socio-economic situations, as well as having different political/religious beliefs among us.

Today, regardless of what the intentions of those before us was, and their reasons for creating a "race/class system, the term "race" in present day, has taken on a definition of its own, in that your average American citizen has been mentally conditioned to use the term to define others by skin color/ethnicity/culture, and given that definition to "race". Whether you, I or anyone else is aware of what those true intentions of the "race" system was/is, many today are not aware that it is still being used in present day to divide/obtain power over specific groups in many ways.

I am aware that the term "race" cannot automatically be the "definitive" or "final" factor in determining what ethnic group one is actually from, especially on first observance of an individual, as many have been mistakened as belonging to particular ethnic groups, when in fact they belong to another. Usually those errors are based on society's mental conditioning of what groups, specific individuals are attached to, often based on first observance, facial features, accents, skin tones, hair textures, and miseducation, etc.

If you were watching the news today, the first thing when describing a suspect, by society's standards and conditioning, the news reporter will describe a suspect, based on their skin color and again, associate that with today's definition of "race", based on society's, mental conditioning of the term, which has taken on a different meaning, from its original definition and intentions of the past.