I'm certainly not endorsing affirmative action as far as Princes band goes, but I'm curious as to why Prince went from having extremely racially diverse bands (Revolution, Lovesexy) to very little diversity. I know this is nothing new, being that he's only had one one white dude, going as far back as 1990, but I wonder why this is. Is it simply because he prefers a black band or because there aren't many white musicians who play his style of music?

[Edited 6/29/10 11:14am]

TheRIP said:

I'm certainly endorsing affirmative action as far as Princes band goes, but I'm curious as to why Prince went from having extremely racially diverse bands (Revolution, Lovesexy) to very little diversity. I know this is nothing new, being that he's only had one one white dude, going as far back as 1990, but I wonder why this is. Is it simply because he prefers a black band or because there aren't many white musicians who play his style of music?

This is the wrong place for you to bring this topic, lmao.

Whoopi said it best: You in danger, girl.

Spinlight said:

TheRIP said:

I'm certainly endorsing affirmative action as far as Princes band goes, but I'm curious as to why Prince went from having extremely racially diverse bands (Revolution, Lovesexy) to very little diversity. I know this is nothing new, being that he's only had one one white dude, going as far back as 1990, but I wonder why this is. Is it simply because he prefers a black band or because there aren't many white musicians who play his style of music?

This is the wrong place for you to bring this topic, lmao.

Whoopi said it best: You in danger, girl.

What's dangerous? Prince chooses who he wants in his band. I'm wondering if race has anything to do with his decision making.

^^ i know she just opened a can of worms

PicklesMcMillan said:

^^ i know she just opened a can of worms

Why?

TheRIP said:

PicklesMcMillan said:

^^ i know she just opened a can of worms

Why?

I personally feel it's a combination of preferring black musicians (based on race) followed by not coming across jazzier, soulful players who happen to be white. I'm sure if he went more rock, he could mix it up quite a bit. I'd love for him to explain his band forming process.

TheRIP said:

PicklesMcMillan said:

^^ i know she just opened a can of worms

Why?

because the org likes to get off topic

and it might be a full on racial debate that answers none of your original questions

expect to see the following orgers lauraRichardson, ernestswell , BartVanHemelen, 2elijah

and many more all going at it j/p

lets hope it doesnt reach to that though

It's silly if anyone gets bent out of shape over this. Prince does make decisions and I would think fans would be interested in what his mindset is.

I haven't been able to keep up with who's in and who's out since around Emancipation era, so the NPG could be full of little green Martians for all I know, never mind black or white.

TheRIP said:

It's silly if anyone gets bent out of shape over this. Prince does make decisions and I would think fans would be interested in what his mindset is.

Yeah, but people love to spout off about shit and ride on each other's sanctimonious coattails. There's a buttload of racial frustration in the US right now and it spills over into every aspect of people's lives in the areas in which races mix.

Bill Clinton said it best, recently:

"Until people feel better about their own lives, they're not going to feel good about their President. There's nothing you can do about that. Because the American people hire you to win for them, and if they don't feel like winners, they're not going to give you very much credit. Even if you've done good things."

As tangential as that seems, it applies to even people posting on the org. I'm a student of Psychology, though.

To do my part to answer your question: Prince's desire to have a multi-racial band was, they say, inspired by not only the musical greats of the past, but of contemporary artists in the 80s with whom he was competing. Today's Prince is a lot different than the Prince of 25 years ago. Different priorities and different community. I believe that the Prince of recent times feels more comfortable around and can better relate to black musicians.

NouveauDance said:

I haven't been able to keep up with who's in and who's out since around Emancipation era, so the NPG could be full of little green Martians for all I know, never mind black or white.

It really hasn't changed. Just a bunch of session players.

TheRIP said:

It's silly if anyone gets bent out of shape over this. Prince does make decisions and I would think fans would be interested in what his mindset is.

but to answer your question

i dont think he picks with race in mind nowadays

i just think he picks based on how good they are and if they can deliver when it comes time to perform

they just happen to be mostly black this time

he doesnt discriminates racially or gender-wise

[Edited 6/29/10 19:33pm]

TheRIP said:

Spinlight said:

This is the wrong place for you to bring this topic, lmao.

Whoopi said it best: You in danger, girl.

What's dangerous? Prince chooses who he wants in his band. I'm wondering if race has anything to do with his decision making.

I doubt race has anything to do with it. Seeing how there are white musicians/artists he's a fan of. He has a white backup singer in is band, so I doubt race has anything to do with who he chooses to be in his band.

http://prince.org/msg/7/333630

my thread with EVERY line up since 1990, incredibaly detailed and easy to read!

PicklesMcMillan said:

TheRIP said:

Why?

because the org likes to get off topic

and it might be a full on racial debate that answers none of your original questions

expect to see the following orgers lauraRichardson, ernestswell , BartVanHemelen, 2elijah

and many more all going at it j/p

lets hope it doesnt reach to that though

Oh hush you. I just think it's silly that someone would think race has something to do with the artists he chooses to play in his band.

Spinlight said:

Prince's desire to have a multi-racial band was, they say, inspired by not only the musical greats of the past, but of contemporary artists in the 80s with whom he was competing. Today's Prince is a lot different than the Prince of 25 years ago. Different priorities and different community. I believe that the Prince of recent times feels more comfortable around and can better relate to black musicians.

That's basically what I'm getting at. It seems he used to really be into extreme diversity in all aspects of the band, as if it was specifically by design. That all changed around 1990 and I still wonder if something happened that year to make him switch gears so dramatically.

PicklesMcMillan said:

TheRIP said:

It's silly if anyone gets bent out of shape over this. Prince does make decisions and I would think fans would be interested in what his mindset is.

but to answer your question

i dont think he picks with race in mind nowadays

i just think he picks based on how good they are and if they can deliver when it comes time to perform

they just happen to be mostly black this time

he does discriminates racially or gender-wise

For the past 20 years he could only find one white musician at a time who could keep up?

These band members aren't much higher up in the food chain from the average session player. I guarantee you there are hundreds, if not thousands of white musicians who could play the music just as well.

TheRIP said:

Spinlight said:

Prince's desire to have a multi-racial band was, they say, inspired by not only the musical greats of the past, but of contemporary artists in the 80s with whom he was competing. Today's Prince is a lot different than the Prince of 25 years ago. Different priorities and different community. I believe that the Prince of recent times feels more comfortable around and can better relate to black musicians.

That's basically what I'm getting at. It seems he used to really be into extreme diversity in all aspects of the band, as if it was specifically by design. That all changed around 1990 and I still wonder if something happened that year to make him switch gears so dramatically.

It just seems rather strange that since he did the Ebony issue, how all these questions are being raised regarding race. This is a man who has various musicians/artists from various, racial backgrounds in his band throughout his career;has dated outside his own race, and now suddenly he is being accused of being racial and gender discrimination. I thought one's ability to be a musician/artist wasn't based on their race or gender unless the rules changed.

2elijah said:

TheRIP said:

What's dangerous? Prince chooses who he wants in his band. I'm wondering if race has anything to do with his decision making.

I doubt race has anything to do with it. Seeing how there are white musicians/artists he's a fan of. He has a white backup singer in is band, so I doubt race has anything to do with who he chooses to be in his band.

But it's always one white player at a time. And they're always in the background. You're telling me Prince has a hard time finding white drummers, guitarists, and bassists? I could throw a rock and find one.

TheRIP said:

Spinlight said:

Prince's desire to have a multi-racial band was, they say, inspired by not only the musical greats of the past, but of contemporary artists in the 80s with whom he was competing. Today's Prince is a lot different than the Prince of 25 years ago. Different priorities and different community. I believe that the Prince of recent times feels more comfortable around and can better relate to black musicians.

That's basically what I'm getting at. It seems he used to really be into extreme diversity in all aspects of the band, as if it was specifically by design. That all changed around 1990 and I still wonder if something happened that year to make him switch gears so dramatically.

but he had white people in his band after 1990

he had that candy lady (lol idk her last name) and some other folks

i really dont keep up with people in the band that much though

2elijah said:

TheRIP said:

That's basically what I'm getting at. It seems he used to really be into extreme diversity in all aspects of the band, as if it was specifically by design. That all changed around 1990 and I still wonder if something happened that year to make him switch gears so dramatically.

It just seems rather strange that since he did the Ebony issue, how all these questions are being raised regarding race. This is a man who has various musicians/artists from various, racial backgrounds in his band throughout his career;has dated outside his own race, and now suddenly he is being accused of being racial and gender discrimination. I thought one's ability to be a musician/artist wasn't based on their race or gender unless the rules changed.

This has nothing to do with the Ebony issue. Can you really deny that the color of his band changed dramatically in 1990? It's a simple fact.

Look, I'm not saying Prince has to have a 50/50 band. It's purely his decision who he wants to play with, and I respect that. But I do believe Prince has a racial preference.

PicklesMcMillan said:

TheRIP said:

That's basically what I'm getting at. It seems he used to really be into extreme diversity in all aspects of the band, as if it was specifically by design. That all changed around 1990 and I still wonder if something happened that year to make him switch gears so dramatically.

but he had white people in his band after 1990

he had that candy lady (lol idk her last name) and some other folks

i really dont keep up with people in the band that much though

Again, one white player at a time... in the background. Tommy Barbarella was the last to get some sort of recognition.

TheRIP said:

Spinlight said:

Prince's desire to have a multi-racial band was, they say, inspired by not only the musical greats of the past, but of contemporary artists in the 80s with whom he was competing. Today's Prince is a lot different than the Prince of 25 years ago. Different priorities and different community. I believe that the Prince of recent times feels more comfortable around and can better relate to black musicians.

That's basically what I'm getting at. It seems he used to really be into extreme diversity in all aspects of the band, as if it was specifically by design. That all changed around 1990 and I still wonder if something happened that year to make him switch gears so dramatically.

Prince spent a long time catering to white audiences and having white band members and white record execs and A&R people and producers and directors, etc. I would assume that that would, eventually, become rather tiresome and that he would endeavor to work with people who were more like him, even on a superficial level (not that race can be simplified into something superficial).

You'll notice that as the roster of his band filled with more and more black musicians, his music style changed dramatically. There were a few exceptions (1993-1995's rock-heavy material), but more often than not he was releasing urban-styled pop. I suppose that's just what he chose to do and we'll never really know anything more than our own speculation.

What's pretty interesting, though, is his continued use of white-washing in his promo artwork. From some of those really powdered-faced pics from 1993 to 20TEN's cover image of him looking straight up Caucasian. I don't care about Prince's racial politics, but I am surprised that no one has ever taken issue with that. Normally, when a black artist pays constant homage to the perception that white = beauty, they are pretty widely criticized.

Spinlight said:

TheRIP said:

That's basically what I'm getting at. It seems he used to really be into extreme diversity in all aspects of the band, as if it was specifically by design. That all changed around 1990 and I still wonder if something happened that year to make him switch gears so dramatically.

Prince spent a long time catering to white audiences and having white band members and white record execs and A&R people and producers and directors, etc. I would assume that that would, eventually, become rather tiresome and that he would endeavor to work with people who were more like him, even on a superficial level (not that race can be simplified into something superficial).

You'll notice that as the roster of his band filled with more and more black musicians, his music style changed dramatically. There were a few exceptions (1993-1995's rock-heavy material), but more often than not he was releasing urban-styled pop. I suppose that's just what he chose to do and we'll never really know anything more than our own speculation.

What's pretty interesting, though, is his continued use of white-washing in his promo artwork. From some of those really powdered-faced pics from 1993 to 20TEN's cover image of him looking straight up Caucasian. I don't care about Prince's racial politics, but I am surprised that no one has ever taken issue with that. Normally, when a black artist pays constant homage to the perception that white = beauty, they are pretty widely criticized.

Im not getting your "white-washing" comment. How do you see that exactly?

TheRIP said:

2elijah said:

I doubt race has anything to do with it. Seeing how there are white musicians/artists he's a fan of. He has a white backup singer in is band, so I doubt race has anything to do with who he chooses to be in his band.

But it's always one white player at a time. And they're always in the background. You're telling me Prince has a hard time finding white drummers, guitarists, and bassists? I could throw a rock and find one.

You can't accuse musicians/artist f racial/gender discrimination because they lack members of specific race/gender groups in their band? I could list a whole lot of bands with members of the same race, should I claim them as being racist? I think not. I believe a lot of his longtime fans yearn for the 80s band lineup, that you'll never see again. Would having more white members make him acceptable to you? What would that prove? How does one skin color become a requirement for their human capabilities?

TheRIP said:

I'm certainly endorsing affirmative action as far as Princes band goes, but I'm curious as to why Prince went from having extremely racially diverse bands (Revolution, Lovesexy) to very little diversity. I know this is nothing new, being that he's only had one one white dude, going as far back as 1990, but I wonder why this is. Is it simply because he prefers a black band or because there aren't many white musicians who play his style of music?

If you eliminate Prince himself from the equation, from the beginning he only had 2 black men in his band (Andre and Dez). When Andre left he brought in Brown Mark, when Dez left he brought in Wendy.

Through the Revolution period (after PR) it was only him and Mark. When he disbanded the Revolution and the "NPG" started to form he had Dr. Fink, Shelia on drums at first and Madhouse (racial diverse).

Based on this (just my observations) I don't think Prince has a preference but maybe it is just who is available who he feels he can jive with at the time he is looking for a replacement.

For a period of time it was only women on Keyboards (once Fink left - Bonnie, Rosie).

I really don't think he looks past can they play, will they do as I say, can I jam with them.

Maybe not even in that order.

TheRIP said:

Spinlight said:

Prince spent a long time catering to white audiences and having white band members and white record execs and A&R people and producers and directors, etc. I would assume that that would, eventually, become rather tiresome and that he would endeavor to work with people who were more like him, even on a superficial level (not that race can be simplified into something superficial).

You'll notice that as the roster of his band filled with more and more black musicians, his music style changed dramatically. There were a few exceptions (1993-1995's rock-heavy material), but more often than not he was releasing urban-styled pop. I suppose that's just what he chose to do and we'll never really know anything more than our own speculation.

What's pretty interesting, though, is his continued use of white-washing in his promo artwork. From some of those really powdered-faced pics from 1993 to 20TEN's cover image of him looking straight up Caucasian. I don't care about Prince's racial politics, but I am surprised that no one has ever taken issue with that. Normally, when a black artist pays constant homage to the perception that white = beauty, they are pretty widely criticized.

Im not getting your "white-washing" comment. How do you see that exactly?

Prince's promotional artwork tends to have his complexion lightened to unrealistic levels, making him appear white (or whiter than his natural complexion). Sometimes at industry events, you can see pictures taken of him from the side and his cheek will appear like it is dusted with powder. This is because he uses light-reflective makeup on his face.

It is common belief that there is almost consensual racism of sorts when something like this occurs because it furthers the idea that the whiter you are and the more Caucasian you appear, the more beautiful you are. Sometimes this is also used to criticize African American girls who relax their hair, etc rather than allow their hair to grow naturally. Alicia Keys was recently criticized for the album artwork for her last record because her face is clearly whitened so much that you can hardly recognize she has any African American blood in her at all (she is of mixed race with one black parent and one white parent).

TheRIP said:

2elijah said:

I doubt race has anything to do with it. Seeing how there are white musicians/artists he's a fan of. He has a white backup singer in is band, so I doubt race has anything to do with who he chooses to be in his band.

But it's always one white player at a time. And they're always in the background. You're telling me Prince has a hard time finding white drummers, guitarists, and bassists? I could throw a rock and find one.

reverse affirmative action just playing

but really therip its just how things unfolded

thoose black musicans where at the right place right time

plus when he had alot of white band members

people where complaining he sold out or he wasn't black enough

see you cant please everybody

2elijah said:

TheRIP said:

But it's always one white player at a time. And they're always in the background. You're telling me Prince has a hard time finding white drummers, guitarists, and bassists? I could throw a rock and find one.

You can't accuse musicians/artist f racial/gender discrimination because they lack members of specific race/gender groups in their band? I could list a whole lot of bands with members of the same race, should I claim them as being racist? I think not. I believe a lot of his longtime fans yearn for the 80s band lineup, that you'll never see again. Would having more white members make him acceptable to you? What would that prove? How does one skin color become a requirement for their human capabilities?

You're getting very defensive and you're not seeing my point. This has nothing to do with me not accepting Prince because of his band members. But with the frequency of the lineup change, I find it hard to believe that Prince hasn't "come across" white players who could play his music well. And again, I'm not attacking him for having a preference. It's his right.