Do you think Prince's knowladge of theory of music is big?

How much do you think Prince knows?

Do you think he can play with Jazz Band as a drummer, bassist,keyboard or Guitar player?

Do you think Prince is repeating some harmonic patterns in his songs and music?

And also do you really think Prince (still) can't read music?

[Edited 6/27/10 17:17pm]

I don't think he could take the place of a jazz player in a band that wasn't playing his own music. I doubt he has that level of improvising ability.

... some people would debate that P does a lot of over producing. I would debate that his music is just perfect. I love the layering of the music and lyrics. That's just the PERFECTIONIST in him.

thebanishedone said:

Do you think Prince's knowladge of theory of music is big?

How much do you think Prince knows?

Do you think he can play with Jazz Band as a drummer, bassist,keyboard or Guitar player?

Do you think Prince is repeating some harmonic patterns in his songs and music?

And also do you really think Prince (still) can't read music?

[Edited 6/27/10 17:17pm]

I think Prince has incorporated different genre of music into his own,

I don't think Prince can join a Jazz band and really play that, he'll play his style

same with gospel

I think Prince is really does good rock music and and a folk music.

the " rnb " ballads and songs are never similar to popular RnB, it's always Prince's style maybe mixed with rock, maybe mixed with folk, maybe mixed with funk

I don't think he reads music, I think he started in school but never went further.

I think it was during the 1982-1987 years that his knowledge expanding because of the people in his camp/band(s) Sheila E. members of the Revolution Susannah Melvoin Eric Leads David Rivkin Dez Dickerson these people brought a style or genre of music that was new to Prince. Which is the only true way we increase knowledge.

PurpleLove7 said:

... some people would debate that P does a lot of over producing. I would debate that his music is just perfect. I love the layering of the music and lyrics. That's just the PERFECTIONIST in him.

I think Prince does over produce hence the reason he's not had a "Pop" hit in years, that and lack of radio play of course....

But I like his Complexity of Song, not all but most, hence i will always buy an album just to get the 3 -4 tracks that are out of this world and way beyond anything any artist out their can do...

But I have never really played a Prince album with out skipping, apart from SOTT which to my ears is his best work ever.....

But that's the magic of Prince, he keeps moving on, changing, not sticking to a standard model, hence his fan base is broken up of 80's fans , 90's fans , 00's fans because he hits the mark with so many people ...amazing..

thebanishedone said:

Do you think Prince's knowladge of theory of music is big?

No. Not very big. I'm sure he hasn't studied harmony.

How much do you think Prince knows?

He's a skilled player and a very original composer (well, he USED TO). I think he's aware that a certain harmonic 'tricks' do work but I'm sure he doesn't know (or care) exactly why.

Do you think he can play with Jazz Band as a drummer, bassist,keyboard or Guitar player?

Absolutely not. Prince can't play jazz. As good as he is, he's lacking millions of lessons.

Do you think Prince is repeating some harmonic patterns in his songs and music?

Absolutely, though that not necessarily means being unoriginal. Harmonically, many of his songs are one or two chord efforts, but again that's a main feature of funk music. Melodically, he (ab)uses pentatonic scales a bit.

And also do you really think Prince (still) can't read music?

Still? If he hasn't learned to write and read musical notation in his training years, he can't be bothered now. I think his later improvements concentrate in the actual playing (especially on guitar) but not in theory.

Wow i thought this thread is dead,thanks for all the great replies i enjoyed reading.

Ok, here we go again...

Prince's skills, whether it's theoretical knowledge or instrumental proficiencies, are nowhere near what people tend to give him credit for.

As far as conceiving and executing his own ideas, he's definitely a master. No doubt about that. But he doesn't, for instance, have the stylistic "tools" necessary to be able to interact with others in a legitimate jazz context, at least not on a professional level. He could probably fake some jazz for a pop/R&B audience, but that's about it.

It involves many elements - rhythmic, melodic and harmonic language, as well as sound and textural concepts. When you look at all of these components in Prince's music, it's very obvious that although he throws in jazz influences from time to time, he's not rooted in that tradition and doesn't fully master even its most basic ingredients.

The same could also be said - again, contrary to what people seem to think - about most of his band members, past to present. The only one that sticks out for me, for actually displaying a genuine jazz vocabulary, is Eric Leeds. You can hear in his solos, but also in the arrangements he (I assume) wrote or influenced, mostly in the 87-88 era. Those kind of chromatic bebop lines hasn't really been heard in Prince's music, unless Eric's been involved.

As far as harmonic knowledge and chord progressions, Prince is really quite mainstream. Most of his songs are either based on a simple turnaround or one single chord. Every now and then he spices it up with something unexpected, like a lydian chord or something. Although he tends to use these "tricks" in ways that you normally wouldn't - which of course is what makes his music unique, but it also shows that he's not always aware of how things are related. He just happens to stumble across something, and decides to use it (which is fine, of course).

There are a few recordings that I would say are harmonically inventive ("Purple Music", "It", "Dreamin About U" and parts of "U Got The Look" comes to mind), but in all of those cases it's more about stacking layers in an arrangement resulting in peculiar harmony, than making conscious harmonic decisions.

Does he re-use chord progessions? Sure, a lot. But then again, everybody does. One thing though: if you look at any Prince album, you'll find that he uses more different keys that most other performers. On a particular album, it's almost like he strives to have every song in a different key. This, I think, can be attributed to his instrumental proficiency - he can play in any key, so when he writes, he has more options to choose from.

About the reading skills... I personally doubt that Prince can read or write music, at least not on a level that would be professionally useful (like for instance, he might be able to name a written pitch or rhythmic value, but he probably can't sight-read on an instrument, or write down his own ideas correctly). But that's just my guess, it's hard for anyone to know, really.

In any case, it doesn't really matter, since he's obviously able to make the music he wants to make.

crazydoctor said:

I don't think he could take the place of a jazz player in a band that wasn't playing his own music. I doubt he has that level of improvising ability.

never underestimate a genius. Miles Davis said Prince could play as well as any Jazz artist out there. just remember the source of that comment. It came from Miles!

SanDiegoFunkDaddy said:

crazydoctor said:

I don't think he could take the place of a jazz player in a band that wasn't playing his own music. I doubt he has that level of improvising ability.

never underestimate a genius. Miles Davis said Prince could play as well as any Jazz artist out there. just remember the source of that comment. It came from Miles!

With all due respect - in this case, Miles was wrong.

During this era (mid-80's), Miles didn't really play jazz himself anymore. Not that he wouldn't have been able to, but at this time, his aesthetic preferences leaned more towards pop and smooth jazz.

Throughout his career, Miles was always concerned with being hip - not only the music he made, but the way he dressed, spoke and acted. Much like Prince, really. I even read somewhere that his trademark raspy voice supposedly was an act, that he normally didn't sound that way - but I don't know if that's true.

Anyway, Miles's "hipness" came naturally and was undisputed during the 50's and 60's, but from the 70's on he probably realized he actually was an old guy by now, and he had to work much harder to maintain his image - eventually at the expense of the music, some people think.

So when Miles talked about Prince in the 80's, his main agenda was probably to make himself look hip, to show that he knows what's going on. Not that he didn't like his music, I'm sure he did - he just exaggerated a little for dramatic effect, the way he always did.

Prince could play the music Miles was playing at the time (pop/fusion), but he couldn't play the music Miles played in the 50's (jazz). I'm sure Miles knew that.

^Spot on!!

The only one that sticks out for me, for actually displaying a genuine jazz vocabulary, is Eric Leeds. You can hear in his solos, but also in the arrangements he (I assume) wrote or influenced, mostly in the 87-88 era. Those kind of chromatic bebop lines hasn't really been heard in Prince's music, unless Eric's been involved.

Agree with that. And the way it interacted with Prince's songwriting and creativity is what makes much of the music from that era so special.

As far as harmonic knowledge and chord progressions, Prince is really quite mainstream. Most of his songs are either based on a simple turnaround or one single chord. Every now and then he spices it up with something unexpected, like a lydian chord or something.

Guess it depends what you mean by mainstream. Taking into consideration Prince's entire oeuvre, his harmonic vocabulary is as sophisticated as anything I've heard in pop music, and at least on par with the more commercial prog rock composers. I do agree that he hasn't really produced anything of note in a genuine jazz (rather than "jazzy") context. A lot of his funkier numbers are based on a groove with only a chord or three, but in many of his ballads and art-rock influenced compositions you can hear him shifting modulations with great subtlety. Even with some of his repetitive progressions there's often a canny change that lifts it out of insipid diatonic territory.

Although he tends to use these "tricks" in ways that you normally wouldn't - which of course is what makes his music unique, but it also shows that he's not always aware of how things are related. He just happens to stumble across something, and decides to use it (which is fine, of course).

I'm sure that's untrue. He likes to pretend he's some kind of genius savant -- and even fooled some of his engineers like Koppelman with that act. But I know for a fact that when the need arises Prince can communicate musical ideas at an advanced harmonic level to the musos he works with. Sometimes he might just "stumble across something" but I assure you he understands modes, modulation, voice leading. I will add that it is true that overall he is more of an instinctive musician, but it's inevitable that when someone is devoted to their art as well as naturally gifted they will begin to learn the theory behind what their ears tell them. Prince has always been curious to absorb lessons of harmony from all sectors of the musical spectrum: the great soul songwriters through to Joni Mitchell through to Duke Ellington.

There are a few recordings that I would say are harmonically inventive ("Purple Music", "It", "Dreamin About U" and parts of "U Got The Look" comes to mind)

Man, I love the coda to "U Got the Look". Wouldn't sound out of place on a Return to Forever or Weather Report album.

PlusSign said:

Guess it depends what you mean by mainstream. Taking into consideration Prince's entire oeuvre, his harmonic vocabulary is as sophisticated as anything I've heard in pop music, and at least on par with the more commercial prog rock composers. I do agree that he hasn't really produced anything of note in a genuine jazz (rather than "jazzy") context. A lot of his funkier numbers are based on a groove with only a chord or three, but in many of his ballads and art-rock influenced compositions you can hear him shifting modulations with great subtlety. Even with some of his repetitive progressions there's often a canny change that lifts it out of insipid diatonic territory.

Sure, Prince's harmonic vocabulary is much greater than what the average pop/rock/R&B artist would master, I agree with that. Even so, I would say that of all the elements in his music, harmony is probably where there's least innovation. With him being a guitar, keyboard, AND bass player, and with his music being so inventive and risk-taking in other ways, I'm actually surprised that he doesn't experiment more with harmony. For the most part, I think he plays it quite safe.

One explanation could perhaps be the very fact that he's a multi-instrumentalist. Being used to overdub all the parts himself, it's not unlikely that he hears music mostly in a linear and/or textural way (as opposed to vertical harmony).

I think his music is full of things like that - instrumental lines that are not always related to the harmonic environment, chord voicings that clash with something else in interesting ways, vocal harmonies outside the key, etc. My impression is that these things are usually not calculated, but a result of simply layering stuff on top of each other, not really worrying about whether they relate harmonically or not.

I'm sure that's untrue. He likes to pretend he's some kind of genius savant -- and even fooled some of his engineers like Koppelman with that act. But I know for a fact that when the need arises Prince can communicate musical ideas at an advanced harmonic level to the musos he works with. Sometimes he might just "stumble across something" but I assure you he understands modes, modulation, voice leading. I will add that it is true that overall he is more of an instinctive musician, but it's inevitable that when someone is devoted to their art as well as naturally gifted they will begin to learn the theory behind what their ears tell them. Prince has always been curious to absorb lessons of harmony from all sectors of the musical spectrum: the great soul songwriters through to Joni Mitchell through to Duke Ellington.

Yeah, I'm certain he can get his point across, doing what he wants to do, with the people he works with. But speaking of general theoretical knowledge, I'm not so sure...

For me, one way to test this would be to have him write a song (melody and chord progression) with just pen and paper, no instrument. Something that's pretty easy to do if you have a decent ear and know your music theory - not that it would necessarily be a great song, but it would be obvious whether you know what you're doing or not.

I think Stevie Wonder is a good comparison - to me, the harmonic awareness is much more apparent in his music. He sets up patterns, he modulates easily through different keys, he uses II-V-I's, diminished chords, and tritone substitution, he uses extensions not only in the chords but as melody notes, he alters bass notes, he uses inner voice movement, chromaticism, etc. In my opinion, he does have a sufficient harmonic vocabulary to be a legitimate jazz musician (although still not remarkable, compared to almost any jazz pianist).

Prince, on the other hand, might occasionally use a subV chord, or a lydian tonic (which he probably just thinks of as "the triad one whole-step above the root"). That's about it.

Prince's music probably contains more elements of surprise than Stevie's (and I actually prefer that - but that's of course beside the point). It's obvious to me that Stevie knows what he's doing - with Prince, it's not as obvious.

I think Stevie Wonder is a good comparison - to me, the harmonic awareness is much more apparent in his music. He sets up patterns, he modulates easily through different keys, he uses II-V-I's, diminished chords, and tritone substitution, he uses extensions not only in the chords but as melody notes, he alters bass notes, he uses inner voice movement, chromaticism, etc. In my opinion, he does have a sufficient harmonic vocabulary to be a legitimate jazz musician (although still not remarkable, compared to almost any jazz pianist).

As far as "II-V-I's, diminished chords, and tritone substitution[s]" go, they're just jazz cliches and pretty simple fodder for Prince. You'll find them in songs such as Slow Love and Adore (although they start on the I rather than the IIm). And Prince still manages to imbue those tracks with his own flavour. But more importantly, just because Prince writes a lot of straightforward grooves (where the interest comes from layers and other elements as you have pointed out), it doesn't mean he isn't a master of all the more intricate songwriterly techniques you (correctly) attribute to Stevie Wonder. Prince can write simple tunes, and he can write damn sophisticated ballads too: Condition of the Heart, Damn U, The Ballad of Dorothy Parker, Sometimes it Snows in April, Gotta Broken Heart Again, Power Fantastic all include startling chromaticism, inner harmonies, shifting bass figures, harmonic ambiguity and unpredictable yet utterly graceful modulations.

Prince's knowledge of chord progressions was once described to me by someone who has worked with him as "monumental". Believe me, there isn't anything Stevie's done that Prince hasn't studied. And that's just the tip of his harmonic vocabulary. Whether or not he applies it tastefully or manages to take it somewhere original is of course a different debate.

thebanishedone said:

Do you think Prince's knowladge of theory of music is big?

Yep, it's big do you own any Prince albums? Have you heard any of his practices or seen any? WTF kinda dumb ass question is that.

How much do you think Prince knows?

He knows alot, again have you not listened to any albums, seen any of the concerts, come on dude, I know you ask alot of dumb questions but come on already

Do you think he can play with Jazz Band as a drummer, bassist,keyboard or Guitar player?

LOL, he could do that in his sleep, lol, again have you not seen Prince live, heard his cds, seen him practice for a tour, then WTF kinda question is that. Go read a book, start with the Miles Davis auto.

Do you think Prince is repeating some harmonic patterns in his songs and music?

Yes, and who does not, again WTF kinda dumb ass question is that?

And also do you really think Prince (still) can't read music?

Here let me help you.

Does prince play 22 instruments?

LOL

[Edited 6/27/10 17:17pm

Do you sit and listen to the music or are you one of those checking to see what Prince is wearing or how his hair his types?

I see why Prince says the Internet is over.

RealMusician said:

PlusSign said:

Guess it depends what you mean by mainstream. Taking into consideration Prince's entire oeuvre, his harmonic vocabulary is as sophisticated as anything I've heard in pop music, and at least on par with the more commercial prog rock composers. I do agree that he hasn't really produced anything of note in a genuine jazz (rather than "jazzy") context. A lot of his funkier numbers are based on a groove with only a chord or three, but in many of his ballads and art-rock influenced compositions you can hear him shifting modulations with great subtlety. Even with some of his repetitive progressions there's often a canny change that lifts it out of insipid diatonic territory.

Sure, Prince's harmonic vocabulary is much greater than what the average pop/rock/R&B artist would master, I agree with that. Even so, I would say that of all the elements in his music, harmony is probably where there's least innovation. With him being a guitar, keyboard, AND bass player, and with his music being so inventive and risk-taking in other ways, I'm actually surprised that he doesn't experiment more with harmony. For the most part, I think he plays it quite safe.

One explanation could perhaps be the very fact that he's a multi-instrumentalist. Being used to overdub all the parts himself, it's not unlikely that he hears music mostly in a linear and/or textural way (as opposed to vertical harmony).

I think his music is full of things like that - instrumental lines that are not always related to the harmonic environment, chord voicings that clash with something else in interesting ways, vocal harmonies outside the key, etc. My impression is that these things are usually not calculated, but a result of simply layering stuff on top of each other, not really worrying about whether they relate harmonically or not.

I'm sure that's untrue. He likes to pretend he's some kind of genius savant -- and even fooled some of his engineers like Koppelman with that act. But I know for a fact that when the need arises Prince can communicate musical ideas at an advanced harmonic level to the musos he works with. Sometimes he might just "stumble across something" but I assure you he understands modes, modulation, voice leading. I will add that it is true that overall he is more of an instinctive musician, but it's inevitable that when someone is devoted to their art as well as naturally gifted they will begin to learn the theory behind what their ears tell them. Prince has always been curious to absorb lessons of harmony from all sectors of the musical spectrum: the great soul songwriters through to Joni Mitchell through to Duke Ellington.

Yeah, I'm certain he can get his point across, doing what he wants to do, with the people he works with. But speaking of general theoretical knowledge, I'm not so sure...

For me, one way to test this would be to have him write a song (melody and chord progression) with just pen and paper, no instrument. Something that's pretty easy to do if you have a decent ear and know your music theory - not that it would necessarily be a great song, but it would be obvious whether you know what you're doing or not.

I think Stevie Wonder is a good comparison - to me, the harmonic awareness is much more apparent in his music. He sets up patterns, he modulates easily through different keys, he uses II-V-I's, diminished chords, and tritone substitution, he uses extensions not only in the chords but as melody notes, he alters bass notes, he uses inner voice movement, chromaticism, etc. In my opinion, he does have a sufficient harmonic vocabulary to be a legitimate jazz musician (although still not remarkable, compared to almost any jazz pianist).

Prince, on the other hand, might occasionally use a subV chord, or a lydian tonic (which he probably just thinks of as "the triad one whole-step above the root"). That's about it.

Prince's music probably contains more elements of surprise than Stevie's (and I actually prefer that - but that's of course beside the point). It's obvious to me that Stevie knows what he's doing - with Prince, it's not as obvious.

No one asks these dumb ass questions in regards to white muscians

RealMusician said:

SanDiegoFunkDaddy said:

never underestimate a genius. Miles Davis said Prince could play as well as any Jazz artist out there. just remember the source of that comment. It came from Miles!

With all due respect - in this case, Miles was wrong.

During this era (mid-80's), Miles didn't really play jazz himself anymore. Not that he wouldn't have been able to, but at this time, his aesthetic preferences leaned more towards pop and smooth jazz.X

Throughout his career, Miles was always concerned with being hip - not only the music he made, but the way he dressed, spoke and acted. Much like Prince, really. I even read somewhere that his trademark raspy voice supposedly was an act, that he normally didn't sound that way - but I don't know if that's true.

Anyway, Miles's "hipness" came naturally and was undisputed during the 50's and 60's, but from the 70's on he probably realized he actually was an old guy by now, and he had to work much harder to maintain his image - eventually at the expense of the music, some people think.

So when Miles talked about Prince in the 80's, his main agenda was probably to make himself look hip, to show that he knows what's going on. Not that he didn't like his music, I'm sure he did - he just exaggerated a little for dramatic effect, the way he always did.

Prince could play the music Miles was playing at the time (pop/fusion), but he couldn't play the music Miles played in the 50's (jazz). I'm sure Miles knew that.

LOL, great revisionist music history!!!!

I wish I had a good understanding of music theory so I could contribute something meaningful to this thread. But I don't, so I just want to say to RealMusician and PlusSign (and any other qualified people who want to jump in): I hope you guys continue the discussion, because I, for one, find it really fascinating to read what you guys have written here.

Yep, I agree with Efan.

I would like to see you guys have a go at the One Nite Alone - piano album.

paulludvig said:

Yep, I agree with Efan.

I would like to see you guys have a go at the One Nite Alone - piano album.

I thought that album was flawless, not one bad track ...

PlusSign said:

I think Stevie Wonder is a good comparison - to me, the harmonic awareness is much more apparent in his music. He sets up patterns, he modulates easily through different keys, he uses II-V-I's, diminished chords, and tritone substitution, he uses extensions not only in the chords but as melody notes, he alters bass notes, he uses inner voice movement, chromaticism, etc. In my opinion, he does have a sufficient harmonic vocabulary to be a legitimate jazz musician (although still not remarkable, compared to almost any jazz pianist).

As far as "II-V-I's, diminished chords, and tritone substitution[s]" go, they're just jazz cliches and pretty simple fodder for Prince. You'll find them in songs such as Slow Love and Adore (although they start on the I rather than the IIm). And Prince still manages to imbue those tracks with his own flavour. But more importantly, just because Prince writes a lot of straightforward grooves (where the interest comes from layers and other elements as you have pointed out), it doesn't mean he isn't a master of all the more intricate songwriterly techniques you (correctly) attribute to Stevie Wonder. Prince can write simple tunes, and he can write damn sophisticated ballads too: Condition of the Heart, Damn U, The Ballad of Dorothy Parker, Sometimes it Snows in April, Gotta Broken Heart Again, Power Fantastic all include startling chromaticism, inner harmonies, shifting bass figures, harmonic ambiguity and unpredictable yet utterly graceful modulations.

Prince's knowledge of chord progressions was once described to me by someone who has worked with him as "monumental". Believe me, there isn't anything Stevie's done that Prince hasn't studied. And that's just the tip of his harmonic vocabulary. Whether or not he applies it tastefully or manages to take it somewhere original is of course a different debate.

Ok, so we can agree that Prince and Stevie Wonder (and of course many others as well) sometimes use similar, jazz-related harmonic devices in their songs. I guess we can also agree that Stevie tends to go a little bit more "by the book", while Prince is more unpredictable.

You're also saying that Prince basically has the same (or more?) harmonic knowledge as Stevie, he just chooses to employ it in less conventional ways. Well...I guess that's possible, but it doesn't sound like that to me. Prince's choices, inventive as they may be, seem more arbitrary. If he really knew so much, I think it would show up more in his music - either by using "conventionally advanced" stuff more often, OR by breaking the rules more distinctly if that's what he's trying to do. My impression is that he usually falls somewhere in between, and that's why I'm not convinced.

But sure, I might be wrong. I guess we'll never know...

I base these opinions on intuition, experience, and knowledge about jazz. A similar issue, for me, concerns Prince's rapping. From what I understand, people who are really into rap and hiphop tend to say that Prince is not a very good rapper (and that Tony M is even worse). Personally, I know very little about rap, it's not something I have studied at all - and to me, they both sound great! But I realize that to the expert's ear, it's something about their performances that's not stylistically convincing or credible - only I can't detect it.

And we all have different experiences, so I guess we'll always react to things differently.

RealMusician said:

PlusSign said:

Guess it depends what you mean by mainstream. Taking into consideration Prince's entire oeuvre, his harmonic vocabulary is as sophisticated as anything I've heard in pop music, and at least on par with the more commercial prog rock composers. I do agree that he hasn't really produced anything of note in a genuine jazz (rather than "jazzy") context. A lot of his funkier numbers are based on a groove with only a chord or three, but in many of his ballads and art-rock influenced compositions you can hear him shifting modulations with great subtlety. Even with some of his repetitive progressions there's often a canny change that lifts it out of insipid diatonic territory.

Sure, Prince's harmonic vocabulary is much greater than what the average pop/rock/R&B artist would master, I agree with that. Even so, I would say that of all the elements in his music, harmony is probably where there's least innovation. With him being a guitar, keyboard, AND bass player, and with his music being so inventive and risk-taking in other ways, I'm actually surprised that he doesn't experiment more with harmony. For the most part, I think he plays it quite safe.

One explanation could perhaps be the very fact that he's a multi-instrumentalist. Being used to overdub all the parts himself, it's not unlikely that he hears music mostly in a linear and/or textural way (as opposed to vertical harmony).

I think his music is full of things like that - instrumental lines that are not always related to the harmonic environment, chord voicings that clash with something else in interesting ways, vocal harmonies outside the key, etc. My impression is that these things are usually not calculated, but a result of simply layering stuff on top of each other, not really worrying about whether they relate harmonically or not.

I'm sure that's untrue. He likes to pretend he's some kind of genius savant -- and even fooled some of his engineers like Koppelman with that act. But I know for a fact that when the need arises Prince can communicate musical ideas at an advanced harmonic level to the musos he works with. Sometimes he might just "stumble across something" but I assure you he understands modes, modulation, voice leading. I will add that it is true that overall he is more of an instinctive musician, but it's inevitable that when someone is devoted to their art as well as naturally gifted they will begin to learn the theory behind what their ears tell them. Prince has always been curious to absorb lessons of harmony from all sectors of the musical spectrum: the great soul songwriters through to Joni Mitchell through to Duke Ellington.

Yeah, I'm certain he can get his point across, doing what he wants to do, with the people he works with. But speaking of general theoretical knowledge, I'm not so sure...

For me, one way to test this would be to have him write a song (melody and chord progression) with just pen and paper, no instrument. Something that's pretty easy to do if you have a decent ear and know your music theory - not that it would necessarily be a great song, but it would be obvious whether you know what you're doing or not.

I think Stevie Wonder is a good comparison - to me, the harmonic awareness is much more apparent in his music. He sets up patterns, he modulates easily through different keys, he uses II-V-I's, diminished chords, and tritone substitution, he uses extensions not only in the chords but as melody notes, he alters bass notes, he uses inner voice movement, chromaticism, etc. In my opinion, he does have a sufficient harmonic vocabulary to be a legitimate jazz musician (although still not remarkable, compared to almost any jazz pianist).

Prince, on the other hand, might occasionally use a subV chord, or a lydian tonic (which he probably just thinks of as "the triad one whole-step above the root"). That's about it.

Prince's music probably contains more elements of surprise than Stevie's (and I actually prefer that - but that's of course beside the point). It's obvious to me that Stevie knows what he's doing - with Prince, it's not as obvious.

you missed the whole point. That statement came from Miles Davis! I don't think you realize how monumental that is. This isn't the 1940's anymore when everybody was stealing Charlie Parker's stuff. Jazz has evolved way past that.

SanDiegoFunkDaddy said:

RealMusician said:

Yeah, I'm certain he can get his point across, doing what he wants to do, with the people he works with. But speaking of general theoretical knowledge, I'm not so sure...

For me, one way to test this would be to have him write a song (melody and chord progression) with just pen and paper, no instrument. Something that's pretty easy to do if you have a decent ear and know your music theory - not that it would necessarily be a great song, but it would be obvious whether you know what you're doing or not.

I think Stevie Wonder is a good comparison - to me, the harmonic awareness is much more apparent in his music. He sets up patterns, he modulates easily through different keys, he uses II-V-I's, diminished chords, and tritone substitution, he uses extensions not only in the chords but as melody notes, he alters bass notes, he uses inner voice movement, chromaticism, etc. In my opinion, he does have a sufficient harmonic vocabulary to be a legitimate jazz musician (although still not remarkable, compared to almost any jazz pianist).

Prince, on the other hand, might occasionally use a subV chord, or a lydian tonic (which he probably just thinks of as "the triad one whole-step above the root"). That's about it.

Prince's music probably contains more elements of surprise than Stevie's (and I actually prefer that - but that's of course beside the point). It's obvious to me that Stevie knows what he's doing - with Prince, it's not as obvious.

you missed the whole point. That statement came from Miles Davis! I don't think you realize how monumental that is. This isn't the 1940's anymore when everybody was stealing Charlie Parker's stuff. Jazz has evolved way past that.

Well, what was the statement exactly? I know Miles said a few things about Prince in his autobiography, but it's been a while since I read it, so I don't exactly remember. He also mentioned him a couple of times in interviews (late 80's).

Whatever Miles might have said about Prince being talented in general, I'm not going to argue with that. But if he also somehow specifically claimed that Prince can "play jazz", then what it really comes down to is how you define "jazz".

If you consider the music that Miles himself was playing at the time to be jazz (which Miles at the time probably did), then he was perfectly right - Prince could play that. However, if you define jazz as a rhythmic, harmonic, and textural language rooted in the bebop tradition of the 1940's and 50's (which Miles came from), then Prince surely didn't have that ability.

Whichever definition Miles was using at the time, he certainly wouldn't have forgotten that playing jazz once involved a different set of skills that what was required for his pop/fusion style of the 80's.

Once again - any Miles Davis quotes, "monumental" as they might be, must be viewed in context of his public persona, and his musical and commercial interests at the time.

PurpleLove7 said:

... some people would debate that P does a lot of over producing. I would debate that his music is just perfect. I love the layering of the music and lyrics. That's just the PERFECTIONIST in him.

Anyone who thinks Prince is a perfectionist deserves to get a posting ban. Because you obviously have never listened to a Prince song.

RealMusician said:

Ok, here we go again...

Prince's skills, whether it's theoretical knowledge or instrumental proficiencies, are nowhere near what people tend to give him credit for.

As far as conceiving and executing his own ideas, he's definitely a master. No doubt about that. But he doesn't, for instance, have the stylistic "tools" necessary to be able to interact with others in a legitimate jazz context, at least not on a professional level. He could probably fake some jazz for a pop/R&B audience, but that's about it.

It involves many elements - rhythmic, melodic and harmonic language, as well as sound and textural concepts. When you look at all of these components in Prince's music, it's very obvious that although he throws in jazz influences from time to time, he's not rooted in that tradition and doesn't fully master even its most basic ingredients.

The same could also be said - again, contrary to what people seem to think - about most of his band members, past to present. The only one that sticks out for me, for actually displaying a genuine jazz vocabulary, is Eric Leeds. You can hear in his solos, but also in the arrangements he (I assume) wrote or influenced, mostly in the 87-88 era. Those kind of chromatic bebop lines hasn't really been heard in Prince's music, unless Eric's been involved.

As far as harmonic knowledge and chord progressions, Prince is really quite mainstream. Most of his songs are either based on a simple turnaround or one single chord. Every now and then he spices it up with something unexpected, like a lydian chord or something. Although he tends to use these "tricks" in ways that you normally wouldn't - which of course is what makes his music unique, but it also shows that he's not always aware of how things are related. He just happens to stumble across something, and decides to use it (which is fine, of course).

There are a few recordings that I would say are harmonically inventive ("Purple Music", "It", "Dreamin About U" and parts of "U Got The Look" comes to mind), but in all of those cases it's more about stacking layers in an arrangement resulting in peculiar harmony, than making conscious harmonic decisions.

Does he re-use chord progessions? Sure, a lot. But then again, everybody does. One thing though: if you look at any Prince album, you'll find that he uses more different keys that most other performers. On a particular album, it's almost like he strives to have every song in a different key. This, I think, can be attributed to his instrumental proficiency - he can play in any key, so when he writes, he has more options to choose from.

About the reading skills... I personally doubt that Prince can read or write music, at least not on a level that would be professionally useful (like for instance, he might be able to name a written pitch or rhythmic value, but he probably can't sight-read on an instrument, or write down his own ideas correctly). But that's just my guess, it's hard for anyone to know, really.

In any case, it doesn't really matter, since he's obviously able to make the music he wants to make.

Superb post.

RealMusician has basically said it all. Prince can impress once in a blue moon harmonically, but I don't think he's aware of what he's doing, it's just natural & apart of his voice. I think being in and around music professionally for some 40 years makes one infinitely better and aware of what's out there-even just by ear, but I don't think you could square Prince could jam with a jazz legend and provide anything new to say.

This is a great conversation even if I don't have a clue what y'all be saying, but just listening to y'all makes me feel smart for being a Prince fan. By the way, I agree with whomever says Prince is good.

Seriously, very good thread.

I nominate this thread for the new Thread of The Year award at prince.org. we could learn a lot with more such discussions here. and it shuts up the rabble.

thank u FUNKYALIAN

Great, some snob is trying to take over the org.

This reminds me of the late Steve Allen, who was a great jazz piano player but said something idiotic things about rock music, calling even the great stuff noise. Or Woody Allen, who thinks all rock music is noise. The debate about what is great music goes beyond the chords.

I would rate the best rock songs as equally artistic to any of the best classical or jazz. It's not about the complexity of the scales or the woodshedding glory, which is admirable, but how it feels to the person listening to it.

Van Gogh didn't have the figure skills of Rembrandt, but he is considered a better artist.

A simple rock song in some ways is harder to write than even classical.