Just wondering about the timeline in the transition from The Cross to The Christ. We know that Prince met Larry Graham in August, 1997 on the JOTY tour and asked him to join the tour. By April, 1998 (Essence Awards performance) the song we know as The Cross has been transformed, with changes in the lyrics, into The Christ.

I saw Prince four times that year, the latest show was November 9. A fiend of mine went to the Detroit show on Dec. 27 and I remember him telling me that, before he played The Cross, Prince made a very strange speech about the song, saying..."someone lied, etc." We were all confused. Little did we know at the time that Prince's religious views were being infulenced by Larry Graham and the doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses. When I saw the Essence Awards performance a few months later, I remembered what my friend had said about Detroit, and I started to see where Prince was going with it.

My question is, does anyone remember Prince making such a speech before the Cross on the JOTY tour? Was Detroit the first time he did this? I have very few recordings of shows from that tour, so I'm curious to know when Prince first started preceding The Cross with a speech to that effect.

Please friends, this thread is NOT intended to discuss the JW's faith, only to inquire about the history of its influence on Prince's music. Thanks.

Its sad really. The Cross was incredible!

But the first time I heard it performed as the Christ was around 97-98. Yes there was a speech about "someone lied"..but he said "WHAT IF someone lied about the way someone died..think about it, but be careful"

It sounded like he was confused himself at the time. But now I believe he feels certain about it.

Interesting question, I don't pay so much attention to live performances, so I'd be interested in the answer myself

I'm still very confused why the song was changed from "The Cross" to "The Christ!" I don't understand why any religious person would talk P into changing it--the song spoke for itself and its references were clear to those who understood it. I also think that with more generalized poetic lyrics, the song reached out to a broader group of people and was more compelling than the adulterated version subsequently called "The Christ." It was a spiritual song to begin with and didn't need any tampering with!

poetcorner61 said:

I'm still very confused why the song was changed from "The Cross" to "The Christ!" I don't understand why any religious person would talk P into changing it--the song spoke for itself and its references were clear to those who understood it. I also think that with more generalized poetic lyrics, the song reached out to a broader group of people and was more compelling than the adulterated version subsequently called "The Christ." It was a spiritual song to begin with and didn't need any tampering with!

Because the Cross says something about the way Jesus died, but not according tot JW if i'm correct.

here's something translated:

They (JW, Remko) do not believe in the cross of Jesus as forgiveness of sins. They see the cross as a pagan symbol and Jesus is died on a pole died and not to a cross.

[Edited 6/8/10 14:46pm]

never herd the christ would like 2.

The cross 4 me was 1 of my faves on sign o times

millwall said:

never herd the christ would like 2.

The cross 4 me was 1 of my faves on sign o times

It's on the Rave DVD

millwall said:

I've never heArd "The Christ", but would like to.

"The Cross" for me was one of my favorites on Sign O the Times.

You really don't wanna hear it. It's embarrassing.

poetcorner61 said:

I also think that with more generalized poetic lyrics, the song reached out to a broader group of people and was more compelling than the adulterated version subsequently called "The Christ."

Just read this thread for the first time. Coincidently, I listened to The Cross for the first time in months this morning. That EXACT thought went through my head.

remko said:

poetcorner61 said:

I'm still very confused why the song was changed from "The Cross" to "The Christ!" I don't understand why any religious person would talk P into changing it--the song spoke for itself and its references were clear to those who understood it. I also think that with more generalized poetic lyrics, the song reached out to a broader group of people and was more compelling than the adulterated version subsequently called "The Christ." It was a spiritual song to begin with and didn't need any tampering with!

Because the Cross says something about the way Jesus died, but not according tot JW if i'm correct.

here's something translated:

They (JW, Remko) do not believe in the cross of Jesus as forgiveness of sins. They see the cross as a pagan symbol and Jesus is died on a pole died and not to a cross.

[Edited 6/8/10 14:46pm]

Well then, that speaks to the limitations of intepretation. The cross is, indeed, a pagan symbol, as well as an acquired Christian symbol. That is the power of it as a symbol. It speaks to the burdens that any human soul has to bear in their lives as well as the the "pagan pole" that Christ had to bear on his back in order to symbolically pay for sins of the world... I just don't understand why any religious denomination, including JWs, would trade in such a powerful metaphorical message for something that is less effective...and, ultimately, more off-putting than the original song... Not very effective proselytizing methods IMO!

Yes. He also made it on some award show...maybe soul train or essence...don't quite recollect but he has made the speech albeit very short statement saying "somebody lied about how somebody died" during that tour. He crosses his arms above his head to symbolize the cross. The JWs don't believe that Jesus died on the cross but rather the pole however crucifictions by cross did occur during the time of Jesus so it's not impossible or even unlikely that he could have died by either method. The Christ version just doesn't sound as moving as the Cross version unfortunately. In fact...it sucks.

ernestsewell said:

millwall said:

I've never heArd "The Christ", but would like to.

"The Cross" for me was one of my favorites on Sign O the Times.

You really don't wanna hear it. It's embarrassing.

True that! I remember when he performed it on that awards show with Larry Graham. I think I could have tolerated the different lyrics, but when Larry started singing I about fell off the couch in horror!

the cross - 1st song i have learnt on the guitar, wifey is getting sick of it....

I don't remember the TV show that Prince appeared on, but he went into a rant about the starous. That seemed to be right before he changed it to The Christ, if I recall.

squirrelgrease said:

I don't remember the TV show that Prince appeared on, but he went into a rant about the starous. That seemed to be right before he changed it to The Christ, if I recall.

Okay, Squirralgrease, I wasn't gonna log in again while I'm doing late night laundry, but you got me with a "rant about starous." What exactly is "starous"?!

poetcorner61 said:

What exactly is "starous"?!

I think a Stauros is a single wooden pillar/column that some people believe was used for execution in biblical times. I'm not sure if they believe that Stauros (is it a Hebrew word?) was mistranslated into Cross or whether it was just an alternative to the Cross.

So rather than crucifixion on 2 cross shaped pieces of wood, The jehovahs Witness religion believe that Jesus Christ was nailed to a single column of wood presumably with his arms either straight up above him or down by his side rather than the iconic arms outstretched nailed to the extreme right and left of a cross.

All of this stuff that Prince latched onto about "somebody (the modern church) lying about how someone (Jesus) died is really a moot point. The important part is probably not the Iconography of a Cross or any other symbol but more whether or not you believe that Jesus existed, was the son of God, and was executed to save us all.

It really doesn't matter whether he was hung drawn and quartered, beheaded, crucified, "stauros'd" etc. Prince wrote a song called The Cross, which was about taking comfort in the knowledge of and not dying without knowing, Jesus/God. The Cross was just a metaphor which works for all of us despite your beliefs. I don't really have a problem with Prince changing the lyric to a more literal "The Christ" in a live setting but unfortunately we don't seem to be able to separate it from our perceived notion of him as being a bit preachy about hius new religion and his complete acceptance of it as "The Truth". I think in general we preferred the more open-minded, all encompassing, soul-searching, Prince.

LARRY ,YOU BASTERD!

poetcorner61 said:

squirrelgrease said:

I don't remember the TV show that Prince appeared on, but he went into a rant about the starous. That seemed to be right before he changed it to The Christ, if I recall.

Okay, Squirralgrease, I wasn't gonna log in again while I'm doing late night laundry, but you got me with a "rant about starous." What exactly is "starous"?!

Keithy pretty much summed up what stauros is all about. The show I was referencing turns out to be a performance on Sinbad's "Vibe" in 1998. The interview is on YT, but the performance (with the rant) isn't as far as I can tell.

^squirrel, the performance of The Cross was on the Essence Awards in April, 1998. Prince, Larry and Sinbad made reference to that performance on the Vibe show in June. They talked about the Essence awards and Prince and Larry tried to further explain, when Sinbad asked, the significance of stauros.

fms said:

^squirrel, the performance of The Cross was on the Essence Awards in April, 1998. Prince, Larry and Sinbad made reference to that performance on the Vibe show in June. They talked about the Essence awards and Prince and Larry tried to further explain, when Sinbad asked, the significance of stauros.

Gotcha. Thanks for the refresher. My memory has faded...

squirrelgrease said:

fms said:

^squirrel, the performance of The Cross was on the Essence Awards in April, 1998. Prince, Larry and Sinbad made reference to that performance on the Vibe show in June. They talked about the Essence awards and Prince and Larry tried to further explain, when Sinbad asked, the significance of stauros.

Gotcha. Thanks for the refresher. My memory has faded...

Unlike your porn collection.

Never really liked the song I know it's amazing

ernestsewell said:

squirrelgrease said:

Gotcha. Thanks for the refresher. My memory has faded...

Unlike your porn collection.

Ya gots to prioritize.

jonty1975 said:

the cross - 1st song i have learnt on the guitar, wifey is getting sick of it....

Ha...Same here man!

fms said:

Just wondering about the timeline in the transition from The Cross to The Christ. We know that Prince met Larry Graham in August, 1997 on the JOTY tour and asked him to join the tour. By April, 1998 (Essence Awards performance) the song we know as The Cross has been transformed, with changes in the lyrics, into The Christ.

I saw Prince four times that year, the latest show was November 9. A fiend of mine went to the Detroit show on Dec. 27 and I remember him telling me that, before he played The Cross, Prince made a very strange speech about the song, saying..."someone lied, etc." We were all confused. Little did we know at the time that Prince's religious views were being infulenced by Larry Graham and the doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses. When I saw the Essence Awards performance a few months later, I remembered what my friend had said about Detroit, and I started to see where Prince was going with it.

My question is, does anyone remember Prince making such a speech before the Cross on the JOTY tour? Was Detroit the first time he did this? I have very few recordings of shows from that tour, so I'm curious to know when Prince first started preceding The Cross with a speech to that effect.

Please friends, this thread is NOT intended to discuss the JW's faith, only to inquire about the history of its influence on Prince's music. Thanks.

Like you, the first time I noticed the change in lyrics was at the Essence Awards that year(along with Jada Pinket-Smith jumping around the isles like some ghetto ho). I don't pay much attention to religious speeches regardless of who makes them. I only listen to his music. I was never a fan of the song to begin with.

ronnwinter said:

jonty1975 said:

the cross - 1st song i have learnt on the guitar, wifey is getting sick of it....

Ha...Same here man!

Just E and A...but so damn good.

i just listened to this song for the first time and i think its really nice

It was all about the staurous, I believe, or the wooden stake. So "someone lied about the way someone died" became the conspiracy call.

^^

What Prince fails to understand is that there were many ways of crucifixion back then. The "stauros" type pole was one of them. They would often hang men, and women, up by their wrists, break their legs (so they couldn't push up to relieve the stress on their torso which ended up suffocating them under their own weight), and let the birds peck away at them for weeks, until, and after, they died.

However, for a very short period of time, they also employed the 't' shaped cross that we know as a symbol in Christianity. That is the type Jesus was crucified on. Not to oddly, prophecies told of a messiah dying, yet no bone in his body would be broken. As it turns out, when people were near death or thought to be dead, the soldiers would often break their legs to assure they would suffocate from their own weight (as mentioned above). The soldiers went to break Christ's legs, but one soldier stopped the others and said, in effect, "he's dead, don't bother".

Whether on a pole, or a cross, it was a vicious and horrible, long-drawn out way for anyone back then to die. Even moving ahead a few centuries, humans were still a savage and vicious race of people, as the common practice in England was not only beheading, but hung (to near death - then released), drawn (while still alive the innards were cut out and burned in front of the guilty party), and quartered (their body dismembered then disposed of). I'm not sure when that practice was given up but it was quite popular for more serious offenders. Often times, those accused of treason (and you could just sneeze in the King's presence and be accused of it) were beheaded.

I have the Cross on my phone. "the Christ" isn't available to download. Other than the word change of Cross to Christ were there any other changes made? I also didn't care for Larry singing along on the Rave DVD either. I also wanted to strangle larry for explaining "everyday people" the beauty of the song IS it's simplicity and that it's not heavy handed and then Larry has to give it a heavy handed intro .