Tremolina said:

It's illegal to LIVE but we all do, don't we? ^^

ernestsewell said:

Actually, downloading is a different matter, but I am just saying: circumventing DRM is illegal. In fact, it's considered a crime.

databank said:

It's illegal to live?

Tremolina said:

Some crimes are in the eyes of the beholder.

I consider it a crime that I paid for DRM licenced music from a lifetime membership site that would no longer be playable had I not circumvented the DRM.

erik319 said:

Yeah, but this is a crime in the eyes of lawmakers and copyright owners.

I consider the "lifetime membership" issue a matter of breach of contract and business fraud, not a crime and feel members should have litigated over it, for example for the right to circumvent the DRM, because the "lifetime membership" didn't materialise, or at least over a refund, but alas, his fans never went any further than the BBB, so Prince still stands strong.

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[Edited 3/22/10 5:19am]

Tremolina said:

That's exactly right! There's no reason there can't be a license online for WMP to access when folks are trying to play those files. They don't need a site, just access to the licese. Prince is WAY in the wrong on this one.

When he pulls some shit like this, it pushes customers to get the music in other ways. It's almost like a bait-n-switch, or entrapment in a long round about way. "Buy this, but you can only hear it for a year although I'm not going to tell you that, and if you try to listen beyond that, you're a law breaker, but it's not my fault!".

Tremolina said:

does that include burning it to a cd, then re-ripping it back to a digital file? because that could technically be considered circumventing the DRM, except you haven't actually circumvented the DRM of that original file.

Tremolina said:

Interesting...

I bought those files, and the licence said that I could burn those files to disc for my own personal use. I did that actually through WMP (they came out very low volume).

So I legally have a copy of that music as I paid for it, and legally was allowed a copy.

You are also legally allowed to own a backup copy for your own personal use... Which is what I've got - to a fashion- with what's on my itunes playlist...

But because I've taken that from my legal CD, it's still circumnavigating the DRM so I'm doing something illegal?

Just trying to get my head round the lunacy of it all. Why he doesn't just keep the DRM's up somewhere is beyond me, he must know how disgruntled people are by this? I'm happy because I copied to disc, but there are people who didn't who are being forced to download illegally just to get the stuff back that they legally paid for. mad world!

ernestsewell said:

100% spot on

ernestsewell said:

Thank god I didn't join that shit

The fact that he didn't make it clear that the files and the club would only work temporarily instead of a "lifetime" makes the enterprise a fraud. But the DRM is a problem. It really doesn't matter much whether the club was such a fraud, circumventing it is and remains illegal.

errant said:

You have some sort of defense because the DRM and the license of the club allowed for a copy for personal use only. So as long as that "re-rip to a digital file" is still for personal use only, you may still be legally in the clear. However when the license said that copy for personal use may only be made on a CD, there could be a problem.

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[Edited 3/22/10 13:26pm]

erik319 said:

Okay, let's try to keep this clear.

Circumventing DRM is illegal. Doesn't matter how it is done, just as long as it is done.

When the DRM however allows for a CD-R copy, you do not circumvent it when you make such a copy. You only do that when it does not allow for it, but you figure a technical way out of that.

In this case, a copy for personal use only was allowed for by the DRM ánd the license. Therefore merely making one copy for personal use only is not circumvention of DRM nor violating the license.

I am not sure however what else the DRM allowed for and what the exact wordings of the license were, whether it includes more than just a CD-R copy. If not, a copy on your ipod may technically be 'wrong'.

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[Edited 3/22/10 13:25pm]

Tremolina said:

In a nutshell, DRM was a flawed business model. There was no way to burn a CD without circumventing the DRM on these NPGMC WMAs (wow, that's a lot of abbreviations). Apple even decided to discard it because it really didn't do anything to hinder illegal copying and it was actually a marketable boon to sales by getting rid of DRM.

DRM even wound up a financial and PR nightmare for Sony when their rootkit-hack audio CDs hit the market and caused computer melt-downs. Not to mention it was a violation of the redbook CD licensing standard. That was fun to watch.

Tremolina said:

Damn right! If all these dead people around catch u living u're in deep trouble!

ernestsewell said:

Now, now... u mustn't charge a cent more than 19.99
Nah, bitch it's 31.21 these days

TikiColadas said:

But do you have the NPGMC Xperience itself? Isn't it facsinating the different web incantations we've seen from Prince? What were those things that guarded the front gates -- cherubums, maybe. I also used to love trying to find different content in the various "rooms." It was cheeky and annoying, but I miss it.

kmc said:

These days I haven't been able to participate in the Lotusflow3r website. If my setup was such that I could've afforded to join, had a suitable computer/audio setup to enjoy, etc. I would've forked out the loot. I did buy the CD'S from Target, but couldn't see the point of "only" accessing the same content as that on the 3-CD release. Well, I didn't know that technically speaking at the beginning of the Lotusflow3r, but my suspicions turned out to be correct.

I regret that I'll eventually have to pay for some kind of "best of " that will inevitably recycle much of the web content from npgmusicclub.com. How many ways can Prince market Silicon?

squirrelgrease said:

Was there really no way without circumventing the DRM? I thought the DRM allowed for CD-R copies, but not anyhting else.

Tremolina said:

So did I. You had to burn from windows media player, but it allowed you to do it, just click and it burnt a copy.

erik319 said:

Well, in case that's all you did (click and burn) that's not circumventing. In case however, that you ripped the files on CD and ripped them back up your computer, in a different format, WITHOUT the DRM, you circumvented the DRM (even took it out completely)

Tremolina said:

Nah you could just click and burn straight from media player. It was even mentioned on the nusic club that you could burn your own copy. No circumventing DRM there...

However. Since the DRM's stopped working, I've since ripped the CD's back onto my computer so that I can have them on my iphone, so I've circumvented like the best of 'em!

erik319 said:

circumvent the shit out of those fuckers!



i don't know why i felt compelled to say that.

i remember at the time, the software i was using at the time which i think was Roxio 5 let me convert the DRM'd WMA'sirectly into MP3's without burning to a cd.

Tremolina said:

Once the CD was burned, there ceased to be a DRM. The CD(digital file) was now portable and playable anywhere without first seeking it's license. So the single step of the CD making process discarded the management code.

I've burned all of mine with Nero straight from the WMAs, but Windows Media Player had to be used early on for CD making as mentioned above.

errant said:

I've never used the word Circumvent so much in my life. It's getting addictive. I'm going to attempt to fit it into casual conversation in the pub to tonight to see if anyone notices...

erik319 said:

You always crack me up.

By the way, circumvention is a good way to keep smegma build-up at bay. I was circumvented as an infant.

squirrelgrease said:

but it's illegal. That smegma is rightfully Princes.

erik319 said:

All good threads should end in a smegma reference.

squirrelgrease said:

We've killed it, haven't we.

oh well...